Leaving anti-gun states - bad idea? Maybe.


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pistolpositive
March 22, 2013, 11:52 AM
We are seeing companies discussing leaving the states they operate in because of anti-gun/anti-second amendment positions being taken by their representative states. Most of us are aware of individuals who have indicated a willingness to leave their current home state (say New York, California, Illinois) for similar reasons.
While I know Texas would welcome those businesses and probably most of those individuals vacating their tread-on-me states, would a mass exodus be good for the greater cause?
I suspect not.
When, you as a voter or a business paying taxes leave you no longer have a say in the fight. As long as you are there doing "battle" against the tyranny of your respective state governments you represent hope.
Just my two cents.
Still, Colt come on down to Texas.

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HankR
March 22, 2013, 12:44 PM
I'm not a company, but when I fled the anti-rights state I used to live in I figured I was voting with my wallet. They are no longer taking my tax dollars to use against me and my beliefs. The taxes I pay now mostly go for stuff I support. As a bonus, there tend to be a lot less taxes associated with my new state. Win-win.

These companies are retreating to a place where they are appreciated and fighting the battle in a new state. Having shown that they practice what they preach, will the new state think twice before trying some NY or CO style shenanigans? You betcha!

AirForceShooter
March 22, 2013, 12:48 PM
I have always believed in fighting the good fight.
I never expect to win every fight.

But the odds are now so stacked in the anti states fighting is just about a worthless effort.

The only place that fight can be won is in Federal Court.

That I can do from a friendly state.

AFS

pistolpositive
March 22, 2013, 03:41 PM
I can understand the perspectives provided.
But here is my thought process.
Will we continue to experience incremental loss of liberties or will something happen that will make it happen more aggressively?
Let's say the great migration is really beginning. Patriots who believe in our Constitution continue their exodus from state's where being a patriot is akin to being some backwater redneck and the companies who provide thousands of jobs while making products that "kill innocent lives" are subjected to increasingly intolerable business environment.
Over the course of time the representatives of these other states will have less to fear from the voters and will vote increasingly along lines that hurt us. I won't say liberal or conservative. I believe there are liberals with as strong a sense of support for the Constitution as some conservatives.
That means the nature of Congress will change, to our dislike, with more reps not worried about Constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms. As such happens it will be increasingly easy for bills to be passed that eat away at the Second and First Amendments and no doubt others, as well.

CoRoMo
March 22, 2013, 03:47 PM
Sometimes you find that you are sitting inside a jail cell. Fortunately though, the door to the jail cell is open and you can leave if you wish. Now, you can stay and try and make your home there and given enough time and effort you can change it from a jail cell into a place so wonderful that others will come in to live there. But you don't want to raise you kids in that jail cell. You don't want them bound by those walls if they don't have to be. The worst would be for them to grow up and get used to those prison bars and then to think that everyone should be forced to live within them; effectively shutting that door that currently sits open. After all, the door there is wide open and you and your family can leave if you like.

HankR
March 22, 2013, 03:56 PM
Very well stated

mnhntr
March 22, 2013, 04:02 PM
There is no fighting the liberal establishment in states like IL CT MD NY CA and others simply because the masses of sheep that live there, and the corruption of the politicians.

pistolpositive
March 22, 2013, 04:03 PM
I like the analogy by CoRoMo and can't challenge it, nor do I want to. I am lucky as I live in an area where gun ownership is not viewed negatively. But i also like the thought that in areas were we are viewed less positively, that there are fellow patriots "holding" the lines, so to speak.

627PCFan
March 22, 2013, 04:54 PM
I did leave.
I had the finical means at the time, and did not want to start a family in Maryland. I grew up surrounded by farms, but now itís nothing but suburban sprawl interspersed with neighborhoods that are a slight nicer than this side of Iraq. Not somewhere I wanted to raise a family, or deal with taxes, politicians and law enforcement that practices catch and release (how else are they supposed to get money from fines if everyoneís locked up already).
Unfortunately I realize that most people probably arenít able to up and leave because of employment and family.

subdude
March 22, 2013, 05:01 PM
I left as well. Grew up in MD, escaped over the border to PA. I couldn't fathom the thought of going back.

geekWithA.45
March 22, 2013, 05:09 PM
The simple, chilling truth is that some parts of our Republic are too far gone.

In the real world, sometimes there is no redemption, Anakin Skywalker dies unrepentant, and Luke goes home sad.

I spent many years searching for what I believed to be a hidden wellspring of people bearing baseline American/libertarian values in the Dark and Fascist State of NJ.

I found a few, but not nearly enough. Most people there literally do not understand themselves to be sub citizens, and do not value the liberty they never had, don't miss, and don't understand.

When I finally accepted that, I packed up my family, my business, my goods, and I fled.

hillbilly
March 22, 2013, 05:27 PM
Of course, it's very easy to say leaving anti-rights states is a bad idea when you are writing from Texas.

calaverasslim
March 22, 2013, 06:06 PM
Pistolpositive, I wish I could say your right. You list some good positions. However, the analogy that COROMO lists trumps yours, sad to say.

I have posted my position here. Just wonder what kind of response it will receive.

mr.scott
March 22, 2013, 06:33 PM
Op premise seems to be based on what happens to those that don't leave.
The truth is you are fighting a lost cause where they have overwhelming left support. The best option is to go where you are free and fight/vote to keep it that way.
If you don't want to leave for other reasons that is your choice, but don't expect those that can leave to stay and continue to get beat down when freedom is available to them.

BK
March 22, 2013, 11:16 PM
When, you as a - business paying taxes leave you no longer have a say in the fight. As long as you are there doing "battle" against the tyranny of your respective state governments you represent hope.
-
Still, Colt come on down to Texas.
LOL!!!!

Stay and fight!! No. Leave and come here!!!

hovercat
March 23, 2013, 12:05 AM
The Bible is also a book of wisdom about human nature.
The Israelites came out of Egypt into freedom. But as soon as the going got tough they wanted to return to the chains, because they were used to having someone else responsible for their needs, no matter the onerous price. It was their normal, and independance IS scary.

They had to be paraded around in circles in the desert for 40 years, until those who thought like slaves were dead and what remained was a people who only knew freedom, before they could become a nation again.

PinoyInFL
March 23, 2013, 01:10 AM
How about taking this even further? If some of us feel that it would be right to walk out of their current home state because of anti-2A policies, what about not patronizing those businesses who choose to continue to remain in a anti-2A state? Consider that every tax dollar that we use to patronize that business is used against us by that state's govt.

Zak Smith
March 23, 2013, 03:07 AM
Let me answer this from a very personal perspective.

I've lived in Colorado for about 15 years. It's my home.

I have some gun-related business interests in Colorado. In addition, I am heavily involved in competition shooting in Colorado. I also have a business interest that is based in Wyoming.

From a business perspective, laws like that Colorado just passed make business operations complex or undefined, have unknown liabilities, and sort-of impede normal things we want to do in day to day operations. Thus, businesses in this position pretty much have to move immediately to continue profitable business operations. A business doesn't have a vote.

From a personal perspective, I want to stay and put in the political fight. This is my home and I don't want to give it up to the anti-gunners. That said, if we don't have significant success by early 2015 it's probably done and time to leave.

mokin
March 23, 2013, 08:15 PM
I think Zak is right. If we in Colorado can't turn things around here right away it may be too late. That is for us here in Colorado to think about. That being said I fully support any boycott any of the rest of you who would otherwise come here to vacation, hunt, ski, etc. decide to enact. For a while now I've thought the hunting regulations were easier to deal with in Wyoming or Arizona, and the snow better in Utah or Idaho.

pistolpositive
March 24, 2013, 11:03 AM
As one poster said, I am writing this from a currently very pro gun/second amendment state. I could not fathom living in an environment where such is not the case.
I do view some states as too far gone. But what I fear more is that we continue to lose ground. States on the border of going one way or the other, appear to be more likely leaning to the "dark" side. If this continues, we will not have adequate representation in our national offices.

breakingcontact
March 24, 2013, 11:12 AM
Sometimes you find that you are sitting inside a jail cell. Fortunately though, the door to the jail cell is open and you can leave if you wish. Now, you can stay and try and make your home there and given enough time and effort you can change it from a jail cell into a place so wonderful that others will come in to live there. But you don't want to raise you kids in that jail cell. You don't want them bound by those walls if they don't have to be. The worst would be for them to grow up and get used to those prison bars and then to think that everyone should be forced to live within them; effectively shutting that door that currently sits open. After all, the door there is wide open and you and your family can leave if you like.

Is this original? Well written.

I respect those who want to stay and fight. Don't blame those who want to escape and seek more freedom to exercise your civil rights though. Same thing with moving from a high tax state. Texas has zero personal income tax. You can either stay and fight your states high income tax or move to where you have more economic freedom.

As far as the gun makers moving, long term, I don't see how they can't and won't move.

Paradigm
March 24, 2013, 12:27 PM
My home state is WI. Although blue on a political map, and in spite of Madison (the San Fransisco of the Mid-West) I feel that WI is by and large a conservative state, and still salvageable. Any thoughts?

Paradigm
March 24, 2013, 12:50 PM
Very astute point, hovercat!

geekWithA.45
March 24, 2013, 01:42 PM
IMO: Having studied the issue, this is my list of unsalvageable states, which are incapable of reform from within:

IL
NJ
MA
NY
CA
MD

These states are in their position either because of structural reasons (ie: the Chicago machine dominating IL) or because the majority of their citizens have been entirely demoralized and have have adopted a baseline collectivist worldview (NJ, MA, CA) or both.

The rest probably are not too far gone.

My take is that any hope these "too far gone" states have for reform will be imposed from without (much like Reconstruction), most likely in the form of reasonably strong pro 2A rulings being applied to the states, which is something that can happen, with a savvy application of lawsuits, in a 5-10 year timeframe.

I expect that when it's all over, there will be three main gains: First, onerous obstructions to obtaining guns are likely to be shot down, I expect to see an end to things like the FOID and FID. Second, I expect to see general reform on the topic of right-to-carry (aka bear) arms, probable a requirement of either "shall issue" ccw and/or Constitutional Carry". Finally, I expect to see reform on state level "AWB"s, as their rationale and justification is fundamentally inconsistent with 2A as interpreted by Miller and Heller, and you can also make a decent 14A argument against them.

Elkins45
March 24, 2013, 01:45 PM
Sometimes you find that you are sitting inside a jail cell. Fortunately though, the door to the jail cell is open and you can leave if you wish. Now, you can stay and try and make your home there and given enough time and effort you can change it from a jail cell into a place so wonderful that others will come in to live there. But you don't want to raise you kids in that jail cell. You don't want them bound by those walls if they don't have to be. The worst would be for them to grow up and get used to those prison bars and then to think that everyone should be forced to live within them; effectively shutting that door that currently sits open. After all, the door there is wide open and you and your family can leave if you like.

Very well said, and a perfect analogy. Besides, I can see a time in the not too distant future where those states will find some way to confiscate the assets of people who try to leave via some form of "relocation tax".

Get out now before it costs you half your savings.

jungle
March 24, 2013, 02:19 PM
A long time ago I decided fighting the lunatics was a losing cause, let them stew in their own juices and head out for better pastures.

You can wait a lifetime for improvement, NY being but one example, and it only gets worse.

My standards are simple-few gun laws, low or no state taxes and small government that can balance a budget. Over a lifetime this has more than payed for a nice house and reduced any worry about guns/freedom and where to go next. Kill at least two birds with your move.

Try it, it may be your only option.

I understand some may not be able to move, and they must stay and fight. For others not playing the game is the only real way to win. It has payed off big time in so many ways for me, and no, Miami is not my current location.

My currrent state is also formulating plans to short circuit any upcoming federal gun laws, the people here aren't going to play that game and I think they will be successful.

bubba in ca
March 24, 2013, 02:46 PM
the frontline states like Texas and Arizona!

Dream-on, with immigration reform(illegal, legislated, executive order, it doesn`t matter) these states will be lib within a decade. And lib with a vengeance like CA.

Slight hope that northern Az can pull a West Virginia and bail on the south.

jungle
March 24, 2013, 02:52 PM
While I don't really cheer the new whackey baccy stance of Colorado and Washington, it does represent hope that states will begin to assert their rights once again in many ways. Rights that have long been trampled, and the number of states proposing to dismiss new federal gun laws is encouraging too.

rem44m
March 24, 2013, 03:13 PM
Here in Utah we will take you and your business gladly. Especially those from CO.

loose noose
March 24, 2013, 03:31 PM
I moved from Ca. in '92, shortly after they required registration of any "assault" weapon such as a mini-14, or a Colt AR-15 etc. In fact I flat out refuse to buy any high dollar product manufactered in Ca. I doubt I had any major affect on their economy, however, I feel I did my part in moving from an anti gun state, high tax, high crime rate, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Jerry Brown, and every other ignorant liberal politician. Now there ya got me going again dang.:cuss::cuss::banghead:

Davejb
March 24, 2013, 03:34 PM
My question to you pistolpositive, would you give up the rights you enjoy now and move to one of those anti gun states to join their fight? If not you can't fault those that wish to leave for the same reasons you won't move there.

pistolpositive
March 25, 2013, 10:06 AM
Davejb, no I am not willing to give up the freedoms I currently have in Texas. Will I still have those freedoms in Texas in 5-10 years, I don't know.
But as to faulting, nowhere in my posts do I fault those exiting the anti-second amendment states. I am, to some degree, lamenting that as more of them depart those regions, what little foot-hold we have in those areas continues to erode.
Kind of like the character Clint Eastwood plays in Gran Torino. When he moved to that neighborhood, it was a good neighborhood with his neighbors sharing the same middle class values he had. As time goes on....Well you get my drift.

justice06rr
March 27, 2013, 01:33 AM
Sometimes you find that you are sitting inside a jail cell. Fortunately though, the door to the jail cell is open and you can leave if you wish. Now, you can stay and try and make your home there and given enough time and effort you can change it from a jail cell into a place so wonderful that others will come in to live there. But you don't want to raise you kids in that jail cell. You don't want them bound by those walls if they don't have to be. The worst would be for them to grow up and get used to those prison bars and then to think that everyone should be forced to live within them; effectively shutting that door that currently sits open. After all, the door there is wide open and you and your family can leave if you like.


Great analogy.

Before I got into firearms when I was younger (college years) I wanted to move to California and NYC because it seems like cool places to live. Now being older and aware of whats going on regarding firearms and other laws, those are the last places I would live in. They would only be vacation spots; I don't think I can live in a state that tramples on people's rights.

I agree that leaving that state is voting with your feet and with your wallets. Having owned a business myself, I would not want to be in a place where your freedoms are restricted even if there are other pro's to living in that state. CA may have nice weather, mountains, beaches, etc but that is no substitute for being stripped of some rights.

So if you can, move to a better location if its an option for you. If you can't, then fight the good fight...

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