Police Face Ammo Shortages


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hoji
March 22, 2013, 02:01 PM
http://m.cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/police-departments-beg-and-barter-ammo-while-dhs-buys-16-billion

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jim243
March 22, 2013, 02:30 PM
Does that mean we will see uniformed officers in line at Walmart waiting with us for ammo for their off duty arms??


Jim

Ryanxia
March 22, 2013, 02:39 PM
All the more reason to limit departments like DHS from buying so much.

X-Rap
March 22, 2013, 02:40 PM
Federal gov will just end up being the ones who control the ammo for the state and local police. Just another layer of control.

avs11054
March 22, 2013, 02:43 PM
Does that mean we will see uniformed officers in line at Walmart waiting with us for ammo for their off duty arms??

Are you implying that cops get free ammo from their departments to shoot personally owned guns on their own time? If so, sources please.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 22, 2013, 03:35 PM
Are you implying that cops get free ammo from their departments to shoot personally owned guns on their own time? If so, sources please.
Wake up and smell the coffee.

GlowinPontiac
March 22, 2013, 04:23 PM
The Federal Govt. will just supply them. Same way that companies who refuse to sell to police in non free states will be worked around by the feds supplying the police depts with any guns they need.

Eyesac
March 22, 2013, 04:40 PM
Are you implying that cops get free ammo from their departments to shoot personally owned guns on their own time? If so, sources please.

The only two cops I know.... some how get free ammo from their departments.:cuss:

TroyR
March 22, 2013, 04:55 PM
But why is there a shortage on ammo that the DHS is not ordering?

AlbertH
March 22, 2013, 05:06 PM
Even Barney Fife would have known that it takes lead time when you order in large quantities. Any smart businessman knows that they need to place a restocking order long before current stock runs out, especially if the merchandise is coming from another country. :)

351 WINCHESTER
March 22, 2013, 05:08 PM
Certain Customs agents used to get all the free ammo they wanted. Same with INS. What they didn't want was hauled to our local dump by them unsupervised to be run over by a dozer and buried. I saw cases and cases of +P+ 38 at our local gs. This was back in the 80's. Each year they would get new ammo so the old had to go. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the agent's as much as I blame the system.

I'm certain this deficency has been corrected by now.

Arbo
March 22, 2013, 05:21 PM
But why is there a shortage on ammo that the DHS is not ordering?
Because manufacturers need to quit making other types to fill such big orders?

This is all the more reason that our elected people need to force an answer from DHS, who refuses to justify their purchases.

SharpsDressedMan
March 22, 2013, 05:29 PM
They only need six, or seven. NY says that is all that anyone needs. Here in Cleveland they shoot WAY too many rounds, anyway, and sometimes at unarmed folk. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/cleveland_police_chase_and_shooting_scene.html

Tom from WNY
March 22, 2013, 05:37 PM
Standard capacity revolvers hold 6. With 3 speedloaders, that's 24. 1/2 box of 50 and one left over.

Standard capacity 1911 .45 ACP magazines are 7. Plenty enough for NY. One in the gun, 3 in mag pouches and one in the chamber=29. That leaves 21 more in the box of 50. Enough to refill 3 magazines.

Problem?

PabloJ
March 22, 2013, 05:49 PM
http://m.cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/police-departments-beg-and-barter-ammo-while-dhs-buys-16-billion
Gee, I am going to cry now.:(

PabloJ
March 22, 2013, 05:50 PM
Off duty cops should be limited to six or seven shots. Great idea.

Kiln
March 22, 2013, 06:10 PM
The only two cops I know.... some how get free ammo from their departments.:cuss:
It isn't free for anyone besides the police and government agencies.

We get to shoulder the costs of training and supplying police ammunition. Just like DHS, it is funded by our taxes.

In other words we get to pay for them to suck up all the ammo like a sponge and create an artificial ammunition shortage.

AethelstanAegen
March 22, 2013, 07:08 PM
This is all the more reason that our elected people need to force an answer from DHS, who refuses to justify their purchases.

Seriously guys? We've been over the DHS thing numerous times. The often quoted figure is for orders over several years and isn't actually an order, it's an estimate for the maximum number of rounds they might order. DHS supplies numerous agencies and departments and runs several training programs (for police departments and federal agencies and thus sees thousands of trainees). In those training programs people burn though a lot of ammo. This has been the case for many years already.

Just like DHS, it is funded by our taxes. In other words we get to pay for them to suck up all the ammo like a sponge and create an artificial ammunition shortage.

DHS orders are not the cause of the ammo shortage and are not part of some sort of conspiracy. The cause of the ammo shortage is everyone and their cousin buying up any ammo they see on the shelves because they're concerned about some sort of ban. If you want to complain to your elected officials, get them to stop the stupid anti-gun bills and that will resolve your crisis nicely.

AlbertH
March 22, 2013, 07:18 PM
Because manufacturers need to quit making other types to fill such big orders?

This is all the more reason that our elected people need to force an answer from DHS, who refuses to justify their purchases.
Rehashing this same conspiracy issue over and over again is making it tough trying to sort out which postings are actually worthwhile to read.

AethelstanAegen
March 22, 2013, 07:19 PM
Rehashing this same conspiracy issue over and over again is making it tough trying to sort out which postings are actually worthwhile to read.

Hahaha. Well said.

Arbo
March 22, 2013, 07:19 PM
Rehashing this same conspiracy issue over and over again is making it tough trying to sort out which postings are actually worthwhile to read.
.... and when they came for me, there was nobody left to stand up for me...

sota
March 22, 2013, 07:31 PM
In other news, I'll sell my remaining stash of 500 JHP rounds to anyone with LEO credentials for the paultry sum of $5000. :D

silicosys4
March 22, 2013, 07:32 PM
.... and when they came for me, there was nobody left to stand up for me...

Yea, because when you ignore debunked rumors to slather on an extra layer of tinfoil and paranoia, it makes rumors into truth :rolleyes:

Arbo
March 22, 2013, 07:40 PM
Yea, because when you ignore debunked rumors to slather on an extra layer of tinfoil and paranoia, it makes rumors into truth :rolleyes:
I read about it in the Denver Post, not know for being a right wing paper. I have never seen the story 'debunked'.

Governments throughout time have a history of lying to their people and doing some pretty dirty things... I choose to keep the lessons of history at hand, rather than ignore them.

huntsman
March 22, 2013, 07:45 PM
The saying used to be control the food control the people, now is it control the ammo control the LEO?

yeah I wear foil and wouldn't put it past .gov progressives.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 22, 2013, 08:14 PM
We are 3 months into this mess. Every ammo seller has limits and have had them for some time now yet no ammo. People are not buying up ammo by the case. They are buying it at a 1-3 boxes at a time yet there is no ammo. Where is the imported ammo.

The ammo shortage has even hit the Kudlow report on CNBC.

jmr40
March 22, 2013, 08:25 PM
I read about it in the Denver Post, not know for being a right wing paper. I have never seen the story 'debunked'.



When the story first broke someone, either on purpose, on by accident added a few zeros to the figures on the amount of ammo ordered by DHS. The story went all over the country in news and on the net. This was corrected within days and has been discussed numerous times on various forums and news outlets.

The correction probably was lost on the back pages of most newspapers just like all of the other corrections they make.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 22, 2013, 08:50 PM
Kudlow just had a segment on the 1.6 billion round DHS ammo purchase.

alsaqr
March 22, 2013, 08:52 PM
Police are having trouble buying training ammunition because people stand in line to scarf up every round of popular caliber ammunition when it hits the store.

i will say it once more: All the stuff about DHS buying up the ammo and causing a shortage is trashy conspiracy theory.

The last post on this thread sums up the DHS ammunition buy very well.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651455&page=3&highlight=DHS+buying+ammunition

oneounceload
March 22, 2013, 08:54 PM
Yea, because when you ignore debunked rumors to slather on an extra layer of tinfoil and paranoia, it makes rumors into truth

Why, that's EXACTLY what the left and MSM do on a daily basis - tell the lie often enough and you can make it become a truth - right out of Goebbel's playbook... ;)

wooly bugger
March 22, 2013, 08:55 PM
Good. Maybe they'll start complaining to their masters, and the masters might listen

River Wraith
March 22, 2013, 09:00 PM
A couple of posts before that is a guy saying ammo is available on the internet. BS, I can't find 9mm anywhere.

alsaqr
March 22, 2013, 09:04 PM
A couple of posts before that is a guy saying ammo is available on the internet. BS, I can't find 9mm anywhere.

Buy your 9mm ammo right here:


http://www.ammoforsale.com/9mm-ammo-for-sale

http://www.luckygunner.com/handgun/9mm-ammo

Yep, the prices are a little steep.

Arbo
March 22, 2013, 09:07 PM
Police are having trouble buying training ammunition because people stand in line to scarf up every round of popular caliber ammunition when it hits the store.

i will say it once more: All the stuff about DHS buying up the ammo and causing a shortage is trashy conspiracy theory.

The last post on this thread sums up the DHS ammunition buy very well.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651455&page=3&highlight=DHS+buying+ammunition
One guy's post is 'debunking'? That's a new standard. I did notice at the top of the page someone calling BS on there being a 'shortage' at all, saying cabela's is FULL of .223. Uh, yeah, that's nowhere near reality.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 22, 2013, 09:29 PM
Police are having trouble buying training ammunition because people stand in line to scarf up every round of popular caliber ammunition when it hits the store.

i will say it once more: All the stuff about DHS buying up the ammo and causing a shortage is trashy conspiracy theory.

The last post on this thread sums up the DHS ammunition buy very well.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651455&page=3&highlight=DHS+buying+ammunition
Really. How can people cause a shortage when suppliers are limiting the amount of ammo that can be purchase. The local gun shops have no ammo, Midway has no ammo, Natchezz has no ammo, Aim Surplus and other suppliers have no ammo so tell me where is all of this ammo thats being bought up and flipped. Who has it?

I finally was able to buy some 9mm ammo today for the first time in a few weeks. I bought 1 box. Thats right. One box. How do you flip that.

berettaprofessor
March 22, 2013, 09:36 PM
Buy your 9mm ammo right here:


http://www.ammoforsale.com/9mm-ammo-for-sale

http://www.luckygunner.com/handgun/9mm-ammo

Yep, the prices are a little steep.

A little steep? $46 for 50? What is that, about 5X what it sold for 5 years ago? Why, oh why didn't I invest in ammo back then?

splattergun
March 22, 2013, 09:42 PM
Are you implying that cops get free ammo from their departments to shoot personally owned guns on their own time? If so, sources please.
Source? We don' need no stinkin' source. A cop would never bend the rules. Never. Especially not while shooting with a neighbor. :rolleyes:

jmace57
March 22, 2013, 09:53 PM
My nephew is an airline pilot and has the permit to carry on the plane. He loves shooting, but the Feds supply him so much (really expensive) ammo to practice with that he can't keep up.

carpboy
March 22, 2013, 10:12 PM
Maybe if this story gets pumped up in the media till it becomes a "crisis" Congress could demand that we start importing ammo from China again.This current panic would start to ease as soon as the first few shipments hit the docks.

Zoogster
March 22, 2013, 10:13 PM
Could part of the problem be that while the majority of products people purchase in the United States are produced in China, one of the only products we cannot purchase from these giant manufacturers are firearms and ammunition.


Now granted domestic ammunition and firearm manufacturers like this situation because while the rest of society has to compete with cheaper products from China, the firearm industry does not.
It is protected and insulated in many ways from foreign competition that most other industries must deal with.
That does of course result in more firearm related American jobs.

But Norinco would love to ease the burden and fill shelves full of ammunition.
Canada has no shortage of inexpensive ammunition from Norinco:

https://www.canadaammo.com/product/byCategory/ammunition/

Did you want a crate of .223/5.56 for 28 cents a round?

https://www.canadaammo.com/product/detail/379


This could be you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwHiIq6KTV4

River Wraith
March 22, 2013, 10:36 PM
I'm partial to Winchester WinClean BEB, but I can't find it anywhere for a reasonable price. The usual places are sportsmans guide and cheaper than dirt. I remember buying 500 and 1000 rounds for classes and it was fairly inexpensive. Now it would cost more than the class.

avs11054
March 22, 2013, 10:52 PM
Wake up and smell the coffee.

Not sure what point youre trying to make.

The only two cops I know.... some how get free ammo from their departments.

I understand this. I get 'free' ammo from my dept. I get to use it at our departments range to shoot through my duty gun. The post that I quoted implied that cops get free ammo to shoot through their personally owned firearms on their free time. So if that is true, sources please (if the two cops you know do in fact fit the quote that i replied to, i highly doubt they are representative of the hundreds of thousands of LEOs in the US).

hoji
March 22, 2013, 10:57 PM
. Meanwhile, Rep. Timothy Huelskamp (R-Kansas) says the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has failed to respond to multiple members of Congress asking why DHS bought more than 1.6 billion rounds in the past year.


Hmm.

nathan
March 22, 2013, 11:25 PM
THis will be going on for a good while.

r1derbike
March 22, 2013, 11:28 PM
Well...I've gotten pretty good at throwing rocks lately. There seems to be no shortage of them where I live.

PlaneJain
March 22, 2013, 11:33 PM
GlowinPontiac - "The Federal Govt. will just supply them. Same way that companies who refuse to sell to police in non free states will be worked around by the feds supplying the police depts with any guns they need."

But what if some of these police departments are the ones that are openly vowing to not enforce the new gun policies of their state? Do you really think the federal government will give them any??? ;)

Texshooter
March 22, 2013, 11:37 PM
Not sure what point youre trying to make.



I understand this. I get 'free' ammo from my dept. I get to use it at our departments range to shoot through my duty gun. The post that I quoted implied that cops get free ammo to shoot through their personally owned firearms on their free time. So if that is true, sources please (if the two cops you know do in fact fit the quote that i replied to, i highly doubt they are representative of the hundreds of thousands of LEOs in the US).
Well, better Police be short than me. I support them, but they work for me.

In the metro ATL county I live in, the Police get 50 rounds a month minimum (not much I know, but sometimes more than I can get). The powers that be know not what gun, if any, those rounds are fired from. I know some have been sold to civies instead. They are meant for practice.

So, yes, they are often fired out of officers personally owned pistols

fanchisimo
March 22, 2013, 11:44 PM
I like that canada ammo quote on their site.

American Friends: Sorry we cannot ship this to you. Thank Clinton for that.

avs11054
March 22, 2013, 11:50 PM
Well, better Police be short than me. I support them, but they work for me.

In the metro ATL county I live in, the Police get 50 rounds a month minimum (not much I know, but sometimes more than I can get). The powers that be know not what gun, if any, those rounds are fired from. I know some have been sold to civies instead. They are meant for practice.

So, yes, they are often fired out of officers personally owned pistols

So again, there is no source, but you just happen to have knowledge of it

SharpsDressedMan
March 22, 2013, 11:52 PM
I kind of like these shortages now and then. As it did for me, it makes believers of many: in the future, smart guys will stock up, and many will learn to reload, stocking up on components as they can afford. I woke up back during the Clinton era. I reloaded before that, but a shortage of primers had its effect. This is much worse now, due to lots of new gun buyers scrambling to buy guns, adding a big demand to an already big demand from the regular ammo purchasers. So, be patient, and learn from this. You will not be short in the future if you supply yourself. You see what happens when you take things for granted. The more of us that reload, the less society or the government control what we do with our shooting needs.

avs11054
March 23, 2013, 12:10 AM
I kind of like these shortages now and then. As it did for me, it makes believers of many: in the future, smart guys will stock up, and many will learn to reload, stocking up on components as they can afford. I woke up back during the Clinton era. I reloaded before that, but a shortage of primers had its effect. This is much worse now, due to lots of new gun buyers scrambling to buy guns, adding a big demand to an already big demand from the regular ammo purchasers. So, be patient, and learn from this. You will not be short in the future if you supply yourself. You see what happens when you take things for granted. The more of us that reload, the less society or the government control what we do with our shooting needs.

I agree. This is the first shortage/craze that I have been through. I was not ready for it. I will be ready for the next one.

Onward Allusion
March 23, 2013, 12:18 AM
I understand this. I get 'free' ammo from my dept. I get to use it at our departments range to shoot through my duty gun. The post that I quoted implied that cops get free ammo to shoot through their personally owned firearms on their free time. So if that is true, sources please (if the two cops you know do in fact fit the quote that i replied to, i highly doubt they are representative of the hundreds of thousands of LEOs in the US).

You're fortunate that you get "free" ammo for practice, many departments I know make their guys buy it from the department at a discount or limit "free" to a couple of boxes a month. Also, departments that I know don't let you bring your own for duty, so I guess that ammo is free... It still amazes me what some people think...

Ohio Gun Guy
March 23, 2013, 12:18 AM
I was flat footed in 2008 - 2009 ammo wise. I would buy if it were available, but I'm not paniced and I'm not paying panic prices.... (yet)

For the record, I do believe the very large gov't order is impacting supply. I think its both record public demand, but such a huge order, even if it is a standing order (indefinate) the manufacturer has to meet their demand, and I would think that they are putting at least some of their ouput to meeting that order. (I'm not a stranger to purchasing). After all unless you or I are going to plase the equivelant of a 30 year order, they are the biggest single customer.

I also dont think it was a mistake, and I dont think the results were un-known.

AlbertH
March 23, 2013, 08:34 AM
I was flat footed in 2008 - 2009 ammo wise. I would buy if it were available, but I'm not paniced and I'm not paying panic prices.... (yet)

For the record, I do believe the very large gov't order is impacting supply. I think its both record public demand, but such a huge order, even if it is a standing order (indefinate) the manufacturer has to meet their demand, and I would think that they are putting at least some of their ouput to meeting that order. (I'm not a stranger to purchasing). After all unless you or I are going to plase the equivelant of a 30 year order, they are the biggest single customer.

I also dont think it was a mistake, and I dont think the results were un-known.
When a smart businessman gets a standing order large enough to dedicate equipment, they will purchase that equipment and build a dedicated line, That is just good business sense, because they cant increase profits if they have no product to sell.

We have seen record numbers of people getting their CPL and purchasing handguns over the past 6 months. Along with each of those handgun purchases goes ammo. The most common hand guns sold are 22LR, 380ACP, and 9MM.

Along with the added need for ammo due to those new gun purchases came the PANIC BUYING created by the news media. The NRA says that there are what, 250 million guns in America, If people went out and bought just one box of ammo for each of those guns, it would put a massive strain on the ammo supply. The trouble is the hoarding started and some people were buying hundreds and even thousands of rounds.

Ammo manufacturers do not have dedicated lines for each and every caliber of ammo, to do so would create an unsustainable production cost overhead and put them out of business, therefore they share some production lines and only produce certain calibers of ammo based on expected sales numbers.

If there is a government conspiracy, why is shotgun ammo still so readily available. Shotguns are just as deadly if not more at close range?

Look at what happens to store shelves each time a natural disaster strikes, are those empty shelves due to a government conspiracy? Why is the ammo shortage any different?

Just my thoughts,

Al

Pilot
March 23, 2013, 08:45 AM
I know the Feds get free ammo to shoot in what ever weapon they want. My friend's brother in law in the U.S. Border Patrol gets cases of .40 S&W. So many cases, he can't shoot it all, not by a longshot, so he gives it to my friend, who also can't shoot it all, so the cases sit in his basement. And this was BEFORE the billions of rounds recently acquired by the Feds.

Zeke/PA
March 23, 2013, 08:56 AM
On some other forums , folks are saying that large Government ammo orders are impacting ammo availability in that primers are unavailable for civilian use production.
My neighbor, an avid shotgun shooter, cannot find shotshell primers at this time to bear this out somewhat.
I stockpiled components after the last "crisis" so I'm in good shape for this years shooting.

SharpsDressedMan
March 23, 2013, 09:12 AM
Imagine if all the ammo companies fill big government orders, and then the government doesn't pay them (or on time) later. They fold. Then the government easily opts to buy from foreign manufacturers when they finally exhaust those billion round orders from previous years. THAT would also impact civilian availability of ammo.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 23, 2013, 09:31 AM
When a smart businessman gets a standing order large enough to dedicate equipment, they will purchase that equipment and build a dedicated line, That is just good business sense, because they cant increase profits if they have no product to sell.

We have seen record numbers of people getting their CPL and purchasing handguns over the past 6 months. Along with each of those handgun purchases goes ammo. The most common hand guns sold are 22LR, 380ACP, and 9MM.

Along with the added need for ammo due to those new gun purchases came the PANIC BUYING created by the news media. The NRA says that there are what, 250 million guns in America, If people went out and bought just one box of ammo for each of those guns, it would put a massive strain on the ammo supply. The trouble is the hoarding started and some people were buying hundreds and even thousands of rounds.

Ammo manufacturers do not have dedicated lines for each and every caliber of ammo, to do so would create an unsustainable production cost overhead and put them out of business, therefore they share some production lines and only produce certain calibers of ammo based on expected sales numbers.

If there is a government conspiracy, why is shotgun ammo still so readily available. Shotguns are just as deadly if not more at close range?

Look at what happens to store shelves each time a natural disaster strikes, are those empty shelves due to a government conspiracy? Why is the ammo shortage any different?

Just my thoughts,

Al
Shotgun ammo is not available.

How can one horde ammo when all you can get is a box or two. There is not a single supplier of ammo I know of that is not limiting ammo purchases to the 1-3 boxes a day level.

There is no ammo to horde.

Tirod
March 23, 2013, 09:50 AM
Yes, the DHS ammo buy was "debunked," knowledgeable people have done the math, and it breaks down to the amount to train and practice needed, per agent, per year. The numbers look big because the public hasn't a clue. The math hasn't circulated because people like to spread fantastic rumors rather than do their own homework and think. Apparently crumpling more tinfoil is easier than cogitation.

Ammo shortage? Look again - just like last time, the shelves are only empty if all you focus on is military calibers. That is the point - the panic buyers are trying to get the same calibers as military and LEO, to be just as good as them. It has a lot more to do with sociological locker room measuring than an actual need for ammo. Plenty of shooters can go out, buy a box of stuff they would denigrate as "Fudd" and shoot that. But it would be a loss of self esteem to stoop so low.

It also goes to what is everybody trying to do? Buy a few boxes of ammo? Recreational shooter, not a committed gun guy. Those who shoot and do so regularly reload, have all they want, and can make more. It's the .22 shooter who's stuck, they have no way to reload. Might take that into consideration for the future - what good is rimfire if you are forced to buy new only?

The ugly truth is that the panic buying of recreational shooters will sort out who is really serious, and who's just an onlooker. Those who decide to fix their issue will have ammo in the future, unlike those who are just complaining or standing in line for their rationed amount. If you like showing up at WalMart or Academy with 250 other guys for a couple of boxes, go ahead.

It's happened twice now in four years. What are you going to do to fix it?

berettaprofessor
March 23, 2013, 10:11 AM
Look again - just like last time, the shelves are only empty if all you focus on is military calibers

What world are you living in? For three months, no Walmart, no LGS, and the local Cabelas have had NO bulk 9mm, 22LR, 223, 5.56, 380, or 45. FYI 22LR, 380, and 45 are NOT military calibers these days. This week, at Cabelas, I was shocked to see that even the target 22LR, the 22 shorts, and the 22WMR were gone. 22 Shorts????? Military caliber? In what universe?

alsaqr
March 23, 2013, 10:13 AM
Yes, the DHS ammo buy was "debunked," knowledgeable people have done the math, and it breaks down to the amount to train and practice needed, per agent, per year. The numbers look big because the public hasn't a clue. The math hasn't circulated because people like to spread fantastic rumors rather than do their own homework and think. Apparently crumpling more tinfoil is easier than cogitation.

This!!!^^^^^^

All of the DHS ammuntion contracts are IDIQ. When the DHS needs ammunition of a specific caliber a delivery order is issued to the ammunition company holding the contract. The delivery order lists the quantity to be delivered, the contract price, the cutoff date for delivery, etc. No delivery order=no ammunition sales to DHS.

Torian
March 23, 2013, 11:30 AM
This must vary by agency, as some State Police that I know in NY State have more ammo than they know what to do with. Maybe it's the local LEOs that are feeling the pinch more than anyone because they don't have the buying power that State or Federal agencies have.

In the army, we've never gotten to shoot as often as we'd like, even in a combat environment. Twice a year to zero and qualify if we are lucky.

AlbertH
March 23, 2013, 11:40 AM
On some other forums , folks are saying that large Government ammo orders are impacting ammo availability in that primers are unavailable for civilian use production.
My neighbor, an avid shotgun shooter, cannot find shotshell primers at this time to bear this out somewhat.
I stockpiled components after the last "crisis" so I'm in good shape for this years shooting.
Tell him to do an internet search. I happened upon some last evening when I was wasting time doing searches. It may have even been the Cabella's site, can't recall though

AlbertH
March 23, 2013, 11:47 AM
What world are you living in? For three months, no Walmart, no LGS, and the local Cabelas have had NO bulk 9mm, 22LR, 223, 5.56, 380, or 45. FYI 22LR, 380, and 45 are NOT military calibers these days. This week, at Cabelas, I was shocked to see that even the target 22LR, the 22 shorts, and the 22WMR were gone. 22 Shorts????? Military caliber? In what universe?
The most popular rounds, fear mongering, panic buying, record new gun sales, hoarding. According to the NRA there are what, 250 million guns in the USA, if everyone only bought 100 rounds the market would be drastically affected, yet some are buying thousands.

This mess is no different than the empty shelves one finds at the grocery stores after a natural disaster hits. I suppose those empty shelves are a government conspiracy also, eh?

Al

Arbo
March 23, 2013, 11:47 AM
Yes, the DHS ammo buy was "debunked,"

That's why DHS has stated the DID buy the ammo? Because it was debunked?? Interesting.

Ammo shortage? Look again - just like last time, the shelves are only empty if all you focus on is military calibers.

More nonsense. Yeah, that big hefty 'military caliber' .22LR can be found everywhere.... sure. It is far from the only thing missing on shelves...

Those who shoot and do so regularly reload, have all they want, and can make more.

It just keeps getting better... nonsense overload. But perhaps this is a good example of why those who like shooting are losing the fight against the anti-gun crowd, because even among the ranks of people with a similar hobby/sport, there are those that think they are better than others, that make bold and grand statements about how some are 'serious' and some are not...

colorado_handgunner
March 23, 2013, 12:04 PM
Has no one heard if blanket purchase orders? They spread an initially high volume across an extended multi year time frame.

That is what DHS does. Standard practice in purchasing, not conspiracy.

I used to be a buyer so I can tell you this is how purchasing works.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 12:08 PM
It was on my local news last night, that the local PD said they are short on ammo..Said they made a order in January and the order is not expected until next year. Which they then stated they qualify 2 times a year and now they will only be able to 1 time this year. Also, Ft.Smith PD the bigger town near us also said the same thing.

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 12:10 PM
Has no one heard if blanket purchase orders? They spread an initially high volume across an extended multi year time frame.

That is what DHS does. Standard practice in purchasing, not conspiracy.

I used to be a buyer so I can tell you this is how purchasing works.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
So has the DHS ordered like this before? If so it never caused a shortage..

Onward Allusion
March 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
Shotgun ammo is not available.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/12-gauge-all-12-gauge

Averageman
March 23, 2013, 12:38 PM
So, if it all is tin foil hat conspiracy theory drama...
Where is the ammo?
Personally I could care less if the Local Police can't get it, at best they are 20 minutes away when I call. To be honest that ammo isn't for them to defend me, it is for them to defend themselves. If you believe that mindset, they are no more "In Need" of ammo than I am.
I wont argue that there is a lot of wild speculation out there, but again, where is the ammo?

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 01:03 PM
Yes, the DHS ammo buy was "debunked," knowledgeable people have done the math, and it breaks down to the amount to train and practice needed, per agent, per year. The numbers look big because the public hasn't a clue. The math hasn't circulated because people like to spread fantastic rumors rather than do their own homework and think. Apparently crumpling more tinfoil is easier than cogitation.

Ammo shortage? Look again - just like last time, the shelves are only empty if all you focus on is military calibers. That is the point - the panic buyers are trying to get the same calibers as military and LEO, to be just as good as them. It has a lot more to do with sociological locker room measuring than an actual need for ammo. Plenty of shooters can go out, buy a box of stuff they would denigrate as "Fudd" and shoot that. But it would be a loss of self esteem to stoop so low.

It also goes to what is everybody trying to do? Buy a few boxes of ammo? Recreational shooter, not a committed gun guy. Those who shoot and do so regularly reload, have all they want, and can make more. It's the .22 shooter who's stuck, they have no way to reload. Might take that into consideration for the future - what good is rimfire if you are forced to buy new only?

The ugly truth is that the panic buying of recreational shooters will sort out who is really serious, and who's just an onlooker. Those who decide to fix their issue will have ammo in the future, unlike those who are just complaining or standing in line for their rationed amount. If you like showing up at WalMart or Academy with 250 other guys for a couple of boxes, go ahead.

It's happened twice now in four years. What are you going to do to fix it?


Actually between Arkansas, Oklahoma and North Texas, its all handgun ammo. None! 22 rimfire none. even most the time buckshot and slugs are never seen on the shelf. The only thing that is somewhat findable is birdshot and duck and turkey shots, even those are picked slim..

Please find me some plinking ammo on the internet for 22LR, I also would like to get some Remington YellowJackets in 22LR...If you guys have a link IN STOCK, please post it for me.

huntsman
March 23, 2013, 01:57 PM
That is what DHS does. Standard practice in purchasing, not conspiracy.


Well since DHS was created by the act in 2002 how can we know what they do, the track record isn't very long.

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 03:39 PM
Good Point! And there pants are getting bigger all the time. There growing faster than roaches..

joeschmoe
March 23, 2013, 03:49 PM
This thread sucks.

X-Rap
March 23, 2013, 03:49 PM
Yes the fact that we are supplying ammo to those who sure as heck are not protecting my rights as an individual and they are numbering in the 6 figures (who knows the total?) is what concerns me.

Old Dog
March 23, 2013, 05:19 PM
I know the Feds get free ammo to shoot in what ever weapon they want. My friend's brother in law in the U.S. Border Patrol gets cases of .40 S&W.Cases? Really? I think not. "Friend's brother in law in the USBP?"

We don't have a shortage, but we account for every round taken to the range, and brought back to the armory ...

I've worked for departments where we maybe were given 100 or 200 rounds per year to practice with in our duty weapons , but seriously, some of the posts in this thread are downright silly.

PabloJ
March 23, 2013, 05:45 PM
Yes the fact that we are supplying ammo to those who sure as heck are not protecting my rights as an individual and they are numbering in the 6 figures (who knows the total?) is what concerns me.
The purpose of law enforcement is NOT to protect individual rights. It never was and never will be. The real purpose is to keep order in population by enforcing existing laws.
Since law enforcement is dangerous occupation the magazine capacity limits do not apply and ammo for them should be readily available. Law enforcement first the public next.

Dr.Rob
March 23, 2013, 05:49 PM
Funny the ammo shortage cops are having was being blamed on gun owners hoarding today on Fox.

Perfect storm.

Arbo
March 23, 2013, 05:53 PM
Since law enforcement is dangerous occupation the magazine capacity limits do not apply and ammo for them should be readily available.

Being alive is a dangerous occupation, some places more so than others. They should have the same limits and civilians, OR there should be no limits.

PabloJ
March 23, 2013, 05:54 PM
Funny the ammo shortage cops are having was being blamed on gun owners hoarding today on Fox.

Perfect storm.
We all know who is most responsible for ammo shortages. It's the private individuals buying excessive quantities. This behavior is motivated and nurtured on unsubstantiated fears that border on paranoia.

AethelstanAegen
March 23, 2013, 06:25 PM
hat's why DHS has stated the DID buy the ammo? Because it was debunked?? Interesting.

You are missing the point. That number of bullets is not unreasonable for a federal department which trains thousands of federal employees each year. In each of those training days, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds and some courses last multiple days. It looks like a huge number because we private citizens do not buy anything close to that amount because we are buying for one individual/one family. DHS's order is for the needs of thousands of people and spread out over several years (that order is not for one year alone). When you do the math, there are many civilian competition shooters who burn through more ammo in a year than the DHS is allotting for each trainee. What seems like a huge number to an individual, private buyer is actually standard fare for government orders (and has been for a long time) so the ammunition supply is already ready for such demand. DHS also purchases ammo for many different agencies/departments that would have been making separate orders in the past, so the number looks huge.

In terms of the shortage, it once again it's a numbers game. As someone pointed out there are 250 million guns in the US according to the NRA. Let's say each gun owner manages to buy 3 boxes for his guns each month because that's all he can find. that still amounts to 750 million BOXES a month. Let's say it's an even split between rifle (typically 20rds/box) and pistol (50rds/box) ammunition; so an average of 35rds/box. That 26.25 BILLION rds of ammo a month. That's a lot of ammo. Why is this abnormal? Because panic buyers bought up a ton of new guns and stockpiled a ton of ammunition. This was a sudden surge in demand. Thus there was a shortage. Meanwhile, everyone else notices the sudden shortage and starts to buy ammo (even if just 2-3 boxes at a time). Essentially, you now have all gun owners plus a large chunk of new gun owners all trying to ammunition at once, whereas normally the purchases would be scattered out through the year.

Essentially, if this was all because of DHS, how come there were shortages in 2008 and during the Clinton administration (heck, there wasn't even a DHS in the 90s)?

TL;DR: DHS isn't causing the ammo shortage. Their order is spaced out over many years, many agencies, and thousands of employees and is not much larger than previous government needs. It's all a matter of small purchases adding up into very, very large numbers and artificial demand.

SharpsDressedMan
March 23, 2013, 06:41 PM
I think I can explain the local police vs. federal agency ammo usage. Both have a budget. Depending on the federal agency, and the persons being issued ammo (for instance, FBI agent vs FBI tactical or training officer), the amount available is often vastly different. I knew of an FBI agent, now retired, that was an HRT member and trainer, in a field office, and he often got excesses of ammo due to not being consumed on the range, changes of ammo issued, and misc and extra that was sent to augment training (.380, .223, 10mm, all kinds of stuff). He probably STILL has large amounts in HIS basement, as it "had to be disposed of". On the local level, it might be similar, if the agency has a nice amount of money for ammo or training. MOST small police agencies are NOT flush with money. Some shoot every month, and some hardly QUALIFY once a year, and never get to train with live ammo. Big disparity around the country, so some agencies are probably not able to just go grab some from the arms room, and are feeling the crunch just like everyone else, but I'm sure it is not across the board, and some agencies WILL get that ammo before it goes to your LGS or Walmart.

X-Rap
March 23, 2013, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Rap
Yes the fact that we are supplying ammo to those who sure as heck are not protecting my rights as an individual and they are numbering in the 6 figures (who knows the total?) is what concerns me.

The purpose of law enforcement is NOT to protect individual rights. It never was and never will be. The real purpose is to keep order in population by enforcing existing laws.
Since law enforcement is dangerous occupation the magazine capacity limits do not apply and ammo for them should be readily available. Law enforcement first the public next.

You got the first part right at least.:rolleyes:
sorry I forgot the sarcasm in the earlier post.

Texshooter
March 23, 2013, 07:07 PM
avs11054 post # 49 The source is the people I know. Your cynicism does not mean it is not true. So, get over yourself.

And let us suppose all here you don't choose to believe are lying, then I think your response in and of itself is more than enough evidence it is better for the police to be in short supply than the honest citizens of this country that believe the 2nd is for all the people.

avs11054
March 23, 2013, 08:28 PM
avs11054 post # 49 The source is the people I know. Your cynicism does not mean it is not true. So, get over yourself.

And let us suppose all here you don't choose to believe are lying, then I think your response in and of itself is more than enough evidence it is better for the police to be in short supply than the honest citizens of this country that believe the 2nd is for all the people.

Yes. We all know somebody who knows somebody who does something. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is true or if it is true, that it is standard practice. One person who uses their issued ammo in any gun they feel like does not mean that all cops do. In my opinion, people who make claims that these annecdotal stories apply accros the board are no better than the anti's who claim that "the only reason to own an assault rifle with high capacity clips is to kill as many people as possible in as short amount of time possible," or something to that affect.

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 08:52 PM
FOXnews sux...I dont listen to any National news anymore. FOX says some crazy stuff on there sometime that leans them to the liberal side. Or should I say they make the " People " look like the bad little outcast.

Averageman
March 23, 2013, 09:44 PM
In each of those training days, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds and some courses last multiple days.
I think I'm gonna have to see that happen before I believe it. One Thousand rounds a day of Handgun ammo???
When you do the math, there are many civilian competition shooters who burn through more ammo in a year than the DHS is allotting for each trainee.
Again, I have to question the validity of this MANY number you are throwing out there. Many as in Millions, Thousands or perhaps less than One thousand?
Let's say it's an even split between rifle (typically 20rds/box) and pistol (50rds/box) ammunition; so an average of 35rds/box. That 26.25 BILLION rds of ammo a month. That's a lot of ammo. Why is this abnormal? Because panic buyers bought up a ton of new guns and stockpiled a ton of ammunition.
One More Time, I highly doubt everyone in America is shooting one box of ammo per gun they own, per month. It is more realistic to say many folks may buy one box and throw it in the back of the closet where it stays for six months.
This was a sudden surge in demand. Thus there was a shortage. Meanwhile, everyone else notices the sudden shortage and starts to buy ammo (even if just 2-3 boxes at a time).
Now we might have something we can agree on, but it still cannot account for the Billions of rounds that were on the shelves and warehouses before the sudden surge of buying.
I'm sorry, no one here has yet been able to explain what has happened to the ammo yet.

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 10:19 PM
Well so far they have bought up over 2.1 billion for orders in the last year, as of todays date.

TroyR
March 23, 2013, 10:21 PM
Good Read Here..

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2013/03/22/dhs-denies-massive-ammunition-purchase

blarby
March 23, 2013, 10:22 PM
Police Face Ammo Shortages


Good.

alsaqr
March 23, 2013, 11:21 PM
Well so far they have bought up over 2.1 billion for orders in the last year, as of todays date.


Not hardly.

DHS letter to Senator Coburn. Subject; ammunition purchases:

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/rightnow?ContentRecord_id=d5bc6da6-cdf8-4c4f-886e-0cdeb52c9feb&ContentType_id=b4672ca4-3752-49c3-bffc-fd099b51c966

postalnut25
March 24, 2013, 12:51 AM
I am a LEO in a smaller department. We have had to curtail our firearms training due to ammo shortages. Instead of shooting once a month, it will be once a quarter. again, we are small (25 sworn) so 50-75 rounds per officer/per month is not unreasonable for training.

Once, in my time with my department, did I get extra ammo for my personal time. I was getting ready to change duty guns, and I was given a 50 round box to take the gun to the range, on my own time, and make sure it functioned with our duty ammo.

I always shoot department ammo in my personal guns. Since I have to buy my own gun for work, my duty and training ammo is getting shot in my personal firearms.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 24, 2013, 01:39 AM
We all know who is most responsible for ammo shortages. It's the private individuals buying excessive quantities. This behavior is motivated and nurtured on unsubstantiated fears that border on paranoia.
Places with ammo limit the amount a person can purchase. If I'm lucky I can get 3 boxes of ammo (3 different calibers) 3 times a week. Maybe thats excessive for some people but 3 boxes of 9mm is not enough to replace what I shoot in a single match let alone the 4 matches a month I was shooting before this mess started. Of course that is if 9mm is even available. Of course how does one get mmo to practice with. If I could by ammo by the case I would but some stores in our area don't even get a full case of ammo. I remember one shops order was just a couple of boxes in different calibers.

I wonder why no one even considers all of the new shooters amd their impact on the ammo supply.

jim243
March 24, 2013, 02:17 AM
The purpose of law enforcement is NOT to protect individual rights. It never was and never will be. The real purpose is to keep order in population by enforcing existing laws.
Since law enforcement is dangerous occupation the magazine capacity limits do not apply and ammo for them should be readily available. Law enforcement first the public next.

Well, Well, Well. No one is saying that you should be without ammo. Law enforcement does not come first, the army does. Their responsibities is to protect us (the USA) from attack from outside sources. Your attitude toward the people you are charged with "SERVE AND PROTECT" is quite disturbing. If you are not here to protect the community, then to be quite honest, I don't need you period. I will go out and find someone that would be willing to protect our community agains crime.

You completely miss the point of who you are working for and who pays your salary. If I wanted a security guard to inforce store policy, I certently would not give him or her a gun. You do not need a gun to keep order.

I do however expect police officers to PROTECT my property, family and my right to a peaceful life and to earn a living without being held up or hassled.

If this is not what you think is your JOB, then find a different line of work and I will find someone that respects my money and will PROTECT my community.

Jim

AethelstanAegen
March 24, 2013, 04:17 AM
One More Time, I highly doubt everyone in America is shooting one box of ammo per gun they own, per month. It is more realistic to say many folks may buy one box and throw it in the back of the closet where it stays for six months.

I'm not saying anyone's shooting a box of ammo a month. In general, I would agree with you that most people buy a box and leave it for months at a time. However, what we're seeing now is people in a panic ("Oh look, 9mm, I can't find this anywhere, I'll buy as much as I can") and so their behavior is quite different than it was before. I haven't had to buy much, as you clearly haven't either, but I had a decent stockpile ahead of time and I know things will normalize eventually. However, you and I are not panic buyers, that doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people that panic bought.

I think I'm gonna have to see that happen before I believe it. One Thousand rounds a day of Handgun ammo???

You may be incredulous, but certain classes span several days and trainees go through thousands of rounds. It's simply true whether you believe it or not. Join a federal agency that requires weapons training and you can see it for yourself.

Again, I have to question the validity of this MANY number you are throwing out there. Many as in Millions, Thousands or perhaps less than One thousand?

There have been a number of posts with people discussing how many rounds they go through in a year in the past. Many serious competitive shooters shoot thousands of rounds in a year. I personally shot a little north of 3.5k rounds last year and I'm not a competitive shooter. I think it's safe to assume that the number who shoot more than that in a year is in the thousands.

I'm sorry, no one here has yet been able to explain what has happened to the ammo yet.

DHS didn't go around to all the gun stores and buy up the ammo. As I said, the aggregate demand across millions of gun owners soared and wiped out the supply. Once people started to worry that all the ammo was disappearing, people went into full scale panic mode because they were unsure how long the demand surge would last and if ammo would be readily available. I have seen more people looking at the ammo shelf at my local Walmart in the last few months than I have seen over the span of several years. The local gun show had lines that wrapped around several city blocks. People's purchasing behaviors changed radically once they felt there was a shortage.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 24, 2013, 04:25 AM
Are you implying that cops get free ammo from their departments to shoot personally owned guns on their own time? If so, sources please.

First time I ever shot a .45 ACP 1911 was with one owned by a cop and the ammo we shot was left overs from last year that he was able to take home. Federal Hydrashoks.

JohnBT
March 24, 2013, 09:13 AM
"I wonder why no one even considers all of the new shooters amd their impact on the ammo supply."

The obvious answer is that too many folks are all wrapped up in conspiracy theories about the government and don't take the time to look at the facts.

Old Fuff
March 24, 2013, 01:10 PM
It's not the cops...

For example, the CEO of Olin/Winchester (who make Winchester brand ammunition) says that back-ordered commercial ammunition orders (the stuff you and I buy) exceed that of U.S. military service and law enforcement combined. :what:

This I suspect, has some folks in Washington worried... :uhoh:

Ohio Gun Guy
March 24, 2013, 10:33 PM
We all need to remember this, as another tough lesson and the 2nd amendment right (Not granted by, but preserved from gov't authority)...

My mindset is changing. Keeping a supply of ammo, guns, parts, etc. is an extension of helping preserve our right, just as writing letters, assembling by joining like minded people to petition our government (NRA)...

When this slows down, we need to keep up the buying and get the reserves a little deeper.

nathan
March 24, 2013, 11:38 PM
ISnt it the US is now supporting the Syrian rebels? Thats another reason for the ammo shortage . LOL

Queen_of_Thunder
March 25, 2013, 11:51 AM
Its my fault. I bought 50 rounds of 45acp and the whole supply chain went bottoms up. I know I shouldn't be hording the 50rounds.

Arbo
March 25, 2013, 04:46 PM
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=22419062d923f87db4df15c676da7943&tab=core&_cview=0

Explain to me how hollow points are needed for 'training'....

And of course how buying hollow points saves money over say, lead....

Iramo94
March 25, 2013, 06:04 PM
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=22419062d923f87db4df15c676da7943&tab=core&_cview=0

Explain to me how hollow points are needed for 'training'....

And of course how buying hollow points saves money over say, lead....
They aren't "needed," but with the family I have in police departments all over the state of Florida, I can say that they are given "duty" ammo to practice with. Tons of it. And whether or not it gets shot is of little consequence. I know of an uncle right now that has about 300 rounds of .38+P Winchester Ranger and nearly a thousand rounds of 9mm+P+ Winchester Ranger. Granted, this is not from recently, he has been collecting for a couple years now.

Also, to the question of ammo use in "training days," the local department has a fifty-shot course that new officers train on, and often they run through the course ten to fifteen times per day during the academy, which amounts to over 500 rounds per officer per day.

AethelstanAegen
March 25, 2013, 07:50 PM
Explain to me how hollow points are needed for 'training'....


Since that's what they'll be carrying on a daily basis, I would be much more comfortable if they had experience shooting the actual stuff they'll be carrying. There are many CCWers on this forum that also recommend practicing with your carry ammo since there can be substantial differences between different ammo types.

Bianchi?
March 25, 2013, 09:05 PM
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=22419062d923f87db4df15c676da7943&tab=core&_cview=0

Explain to me how hollow points are needed for 'training'....

And of course how buying hollow points saves money over say, lead....

Because when you have a massive, almost unlimited budget, you train with what you shoot. If I could afford it, I would train with my carry ammo.

Arbo
March 25, 2013, 09:11 PM
Because when you have a massive, almost unlimited budget, you train with what you shoot. If I could afford it, I would train with my carry ammo.
I guess that's the advantage of owning the printing presses. ;)

Averageman
March 25, 2013, 10:06 PM
In each of those training days, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds and some courses last multiple days.
Again, this is directly from your post.
So as I read what your wrote, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds a day.
I'm sorry I have to call you on that one. I might see someone firing 200 rounds a day in training at the top end maybe 400. At some point in between there training has turned in to lets burn some ammo up.
What you learn by training isn't always behind the trigger, it is balanced so that the ammo expended counts and shows up in practical exersizes when you are behind the trigger.

There have been a number of posts with people discussing how many rounds they go through in a year in the past. Many serious competitive shooters shoot thousands of rounds in a year. I personally shot a little north of 3.5k rounds last year and I'm not a competitive shooter. I think it's safe to assume that the number who shoot more than that in a year is in the thousands.

But that isn't the point is it, we aren't paying these guys to compete, we are buying the ammunition for them to be competant DHS Officers. I'm sure we would all like to be Bob Munden, but Mr. Munden didn't do it on my dime and you dont need that many rounds to do the training.
I shot a bit of ammo last year, but I shot all year, not just in classes but in practise and competition. I didn't need that many rounds.
I have to be honest, if you're shooting a thousand rounds of handgun ammo in one day , you very well may be doing it wrong.B]
[B]What I will say with all honesty is that I have been a Small Arms Instructor and a Master Gunner.The only way to train is with discipline and a continuous thought process driected toward becomming better, if you require a thousand rounds of ammo per day per student, your system is broken and so are your students.
If you tell me it is to protect the Country, again I call you on that, our State and Local LEO's are far more likely by sheer numbers, area covered and statistics to encounter a need to fire a shot in defence than a Federal Officer.
I have no idea where the ammunition went, but I certainly can't look at these numbers and justify it as training for the DHS unless they have a system of training that has seriously jumped the tracks.

mister_murphy
March 25, 2013, 11:25 PM
And next up...

Instead of "that agency bought/used X amount of ammo"

It will be, "why don't they qualify more, since they are such poor shots"

The debate of agencies buying ammo to practice with, vs what everyone thinks they need to be the absolute expert has got boring after the last 20 years of hearing "Hey, did you hear how much ammo so and so agency bought?"

351 WINCHESTER
March 25, 2013, 11:32 PM
Why doesn't dhs share some ammo with the local pd's that got caught with their drawer's down? Heck if the fed's just gave them last years ammo the problem would most likely be solved and none of dhs's agents could be accused of taking ammo home while on the way to the local dump to be disposed of. Share your ammo.

Averageman
March 25, 2013, 11:39 PM
If I were in the same foxhole with you would you hand me a magazine?

AethelstanAegen
March 25, 2013, 11:49 PM
So as I read what your wrote, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds a day.

I said they can burn through several thousands round in a training class. That shooting is spaced out over several days. That said they can go through more than 500 rounds in a day. They are not just burning up ammo for the sake of burning up ammo. They need to learn how to get rounds on target fast and accurately and to pass the class they have to demonstrate that in several practical tests.

But that isn't the point is it, we aren't paying these guys to compete, we are buying the ammunition for them to be competant DHS Officers. I'm sure we would all like to be Bob Munden, but Mr. Munden didn't do it on my dime and you dont need that many rounds to do the training.

We're not paying them to compete. We are paying to protect their life and the lives of others. Since they can't always space this training out over the course of a year (though many agencies do small refresher training in their local area), they have to fit a lot of instruction into a short amount of time. They are not learning to compete in a match, they are learning because there is a very real possibility they will be in a situation in which they come under fire.

our State and Local LEO's are far more likely by sheer numbers, area covered and statistics to encounter a need to fire a shot in defence than a Federal Officer.

You are making several, often incorrect, assumptions about what kind of people are trained here. They are not just DHS but from a wide spectrum of federal employees, some of whom do encounter enemy fire. Some state and local police also have access to these training facilities as well.

What I will say with all honesty is that I have been a Small Arms Instructor and a Master Gunner.The only way to train is with discipline and a continuous thought process driected toward becomming better, if you require a thousand rounds of ammo per day per student, your system is broken and so are your students.

If you can come up with a system that trains students as well as the current courses and will cost less money (ie less ammo used) and take the same time, I encourage you to shop this out to the government b/c contrary to popular belief, there is often strong pressure to cut costs. The current training method they use though is also effective and students passing the classes are well qualified.

Long story short, the DHS order does not constitute some sort of conspiracy with DHS preparing for civil war or something. It constitutes a normal government order for ammunition for training, carrying, and supplying numerous agencies with ammunition. Nothing sinister there.

TroyR
March 26, 2013, 12:06 AM
Some DHS guys in the area train every week blasting away ammo on my buddies private property. I have asked him what they think and he thinks there cool and dont know whats going on. He only thinks there cool cause they bring the cool toys to his range.

Old Dog
March 26, 2013, 12:20 AM
Also, to the question of ammo use in "training days," the local department has a fifty-shot course that new officers train on, and often they run through the course ten to fifteen times per day during the academy, which amounts to over 500 rounds per officer per day.I'd seriously question that. I happen to be a firearms instructor, and even with only five or six officers on the range for a qual, it's rare for us to get to 350 rounds per officer (pistol). You gotta remember, depending on the courses we need to shoot, we may have to shoot shotgun and carbine too -- and not everyone quals the first or second time they shoot (I know y'all would find that very hard to believe) ...

Some DHS guys in the area train every week blasting away ammo on my buddies private property. I have asked him what they think and he thinks there cool and dont know whats going on. He only thinks there cool cause they bring the cool toys to his rangeSo more anecdotal "evidence." "My buddy tells me ..." Have you been there, spoken with them, asked them who's paying for the ammo they're shooting?

This thread is gettin' a little silly. It started about LE facing ammo shortages, but has devolved into people gettin' their panties all a'twist about cops getting to shoot more than they can ...

TroyR
March 26, 2013, 12:35 AM
I'd seriously question that. I happen to be a firearms instructor, and even with only five or six officers on the range for a qual, it's rare for us to get to 350 rounds per officer (pistol). You gotta remember, depending on the courses we need to shoot, we may have to shoot shotgun and carbine too -- and not everyone quals the first or second time they shoot (I know y'all would find that very hard to believe) ...

So more anecdotal "evidence." "My buddy tells me ..." Have you been there, spoken with them, asked them who's paying for the ammo they're shooting?

This thread is gettin' a little silly. It started about LE facing ammo shortages, but has devolved into people gettin' their panties all a'twist about cops getting to shoot more than they can ...
We both work for LE and yes they shoot every week about..Hell they even use smoke on the range. They shoot there DHS ammo...Including .308 out to 850yds. The guy that owns the land is a good man, he is a Pastor of a church and one of the DHS guys goes to it. He was invited to shoot there then it turned out he liked it so much they been shooting there for the last couple years. Said its the best place in the area. A local county sheriffs office sniper visits every blue moon to try out his stuff.

788Ham
March 26, 2013, 12:37 AM
..... maybe a little off-thread here, but what about the 2700 armored vehicles HS has ordered? Saw that on CNN news, guess some senator has , or wants to question Napoletano about that too ! Getting ready for a takeover?

TroyR
March 26, 2013, 12:39 AM
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TroyR
March 26, 2013, 12:41 AM
..... maybe a little off-thread here, but what about the 2700 armored vehicles HS has ordered? Saw that on CNN news, guess some senator has , or wants to question Napoletano about that too ! Getting ready for a takeover?
The gov said it's for HIGH RISK warrants... LOL right..

TroyR
March 26, 2013, 12:43 AM
...........

Old Dog
March 26, 2013, 02:06 AM
Mr TroyR respondsAnd don't use the word anecdotal "evidence." Because it's the same back to ya. I also do CHL classes and I am a firearms instructer. Like you said depends on the scenarios you are shooting is how much could be used. Come to my class and I will have you wearing the barrel out in 10 hours of hard core training. You will need more than 500rds if your hardcore. My basic class for noobs is 200rds min. In 3-4 hours.
Dude -- we were talking about law enforcement qualification -- NOT CHL classes, or commercial training classes. 10 hour classes of "hardcore" training? What, are you talking about training SRT? I'm talking about reg'lar line officers. Gosh, if you indeed work for a government, I wanna work where you're at ... 'cause that's the exception and not the rule these days. Having a little trouble following your remarks, because first you talk about some "DHS guys" doing a lot of blasting at your buddy's private range (never mentioned if you ascertained just WHO or WHAT agency paid for all that ammo), then you tell us you also work in law enforcement ...

TroyR
March 26, 2013, 07:47 AM
Mr TroyR responds
Dude -- we were talking about law enforcement qualification -- NOT CHL classes, or commercial training classes. 10 hour classes of "hardcore" training? What, are you talking about training SRT? I'm talking about reg'lar line officers. Gosh, if you indeed work for a government, I wanna work where you're at ... 'cause that's the exception and not the rule these days. Having a little trouble following your remarks, because first you talk about some "DHS guys" doing a lot of blasting at your buddy's private range (never mentioned if you ascertained just WHO or WHAT agency paid for all that ammo), then you tell us you also work in law enforcement ...
Yeah you sure got twisted up..

Robert
March 26, 2013, 08:28 AM
Let's call this one done.

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