Stop Buying Ammo For a Month...


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Rawss
March 23, 2013, 06:07 PM
this guy has some interesting points. If we all stop buying ammo for a month will prices go down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVqZ_--0Cs

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GCBurner
March 23, 2013, 06:10 PM
I haven't bought any ammo in a month because there hasn't been any ammo to BUY in a month.

Agsalaska
March 23, 2013, 06:12 PM
Prices on ammo will come down. Probably in 2013.

mrvco
March 23, 2013, 06:15 PM
Ammohoilcs Anonymous :o

nathan
March 23, 2013, 06:29 PM
Academy has plenty of shotgun ammo . I got a box of BB steel shot (25 shells) for $15 .

22-rimfire
March 23, 2013, 06:39 PM
The only ammunition I have seen for handguns has been priced at least 50% over regular pricing. I refuse to buy. Frankly, there is little ammunition available that I have seen to "not buy".

tyeo098
March 23, 2013, 06:40 PM
I havent bought ammo in a while.
Reload.

nosmr2
March 23, 2013, 06:42 PM
Not much on the shelves to buy.

MagnunJoe
March 23, 2013, 07:31 PM
I haven't bought any amo in 4 months.

Hacker15E
March 23, 2013, 07:33 PM
Haven't bought any mostly because I can't find any!

joeschmoe
March 23, 2013, 07:39 PM
If you stop buying gas for a month will the price go down? Same answer. No.

mokin
March 23, 2013, 07:39 PM
I'm in the same boat as the rest of you who haven't been able to find any for a while. I think the last ammunition I bought was back in January.

orionengnr
March 23, 2013, 07:53 PM
I haven't bought ammo in better than a year.
Hasn't seemed to do much to impact supply or demand, though.

Ms_Dragon
March 23, 2013, 07:58 PM
No the prices won't go down with the rate the American government is buying up ammo.

Stocking up for expected civil unrest?

Artificially causing a ammo drought, causing price rises to a point that put mass buys are out of the reach of civilians?

Your guess is as good as mine.

JohnKSa
March 23, 2013, 07:58 PM
I don't think it will make much difference.

Based on a conversation with the ammo counter clerk at my local Wal-Mart, the same small group of people (less than 5) camp out in the store for 3-4 hours waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in. They buy it all and the shelves stay bare.

Any real solution will have to get through to the small but highly motivated group of people who are insuring that the shelves stay empty.

People don't understand how the ammunition supply chain works. It doesn't take very many people to start or maintain an ammunition shortage, and once it's established, it takes a long time for things to get back to normal.No the prices won't go down with the rate the American government is buying up ammo.

Stocking up for expected civil unrest?The information is out there, but the truth isn't as "sexy" as the conspiracy theories. In a recent year, DHS shooting facilities trained 70,000 federal LEOs from 90 different agencies. That takes a LOT of ammunition, and that doesn't even get into issue ammunition for the approximately 150,000 federal LEOs and training that takes place in other LE training facilities.

Besides the massive figures that are being bandied about on the web are actually for multi-year OPTION contracts. That is, the contracts allow the government the OPTION to purchase up to the stated amounts, they are not fixed quantity contracts.

kimbershot
March 23, 2013, 08:05 PM
gee, i stocked up after the first obama debacle and replaced stuff as needed. i also cast and reload 45acp--got plenty of supplies for a long time. i was at an indoor range last week burning through about 150 rounds of 22's with my uzi and a guy walks by and comments about my wasteful nature :eek:. oh well, he didn't dampen my day.:evil:

fanchisimo
March 23, 2013, 08:24 PM
I got lucky a few weeks ago and was at Walmart when ammo came out and got my 3 boxes of 9mm and that's the last ammo I bought since November or December. This is my first shortage and I have started acquiring reloading items for when the market returns to normal.

MAKster
March 23, 2013, 08:40 PM
Since these people are buying the ammo for resale, if we stop buying from them at inflated prices they will loose money and stop cleaning out all the ammo at Walmart.
Based on a conversation with the ammo counter clerk at my local Wal-Mart, the same small group of people (less than 5) camp out in the store for 3-4 hours waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in. They buy it all and the shelves stay bare.

Any real solution will have to get through to the small but highly motivated group of people who are insuring that the shelves stay empty.

People don't understand how the ammunition supply chain works. It doesn't take very many people to start or maintain an ammunition shortage, and once it's established, it takes a long time for things to get back to normal.

DogLegArms
March 23, 2013, 09:00 PM
Sorry I couldn't listen for all 8 minutes. I agree with everyone stop buying ammo for a month. Then I can go Wal-mart and pick up some for the range.

JohnKSa
March 23, 2013, 09:13 PM
Since these people are buying the ammo for resale...I think it's very likely that at least some of them are buying to resell, but I don't think it's a given that all of them are.

Agsalaska
March 23, 2013, 09:25 PM
No the prices won't go down with the rate the American government is buying up ammo.

Stocking up for expected civil unrest?

Artificially causing a ammo drought, causing price rises to a point that put mass buys are out of the reach of civilians?

Your guess is as good as mine.
i have seen this cited a bunch by people on here but have also seen it completely debunked by the manufacturers. I dont believe the government purchasing habits are a major factor right now.

SharpsDressedMan
March 23, 2013, 09:38 PM
The only ammo I have bought in the last 5 months was an ammo can of Federal buckshot. I reload, and have bought components as available, but will refrain from doing that for several more months, unless a quantity of bullets I have on backorder comes in. I don't think I'm currently contributing to the "crisis".

berettaprofessor
March 23, 2013, 09:46 PM
Haven't bought ammo for two months. But if the rest of you guys don't want to buy for awhile, I'll be glad to buy ammo at some reasonable prices as soon as it hits the shelf!

Inebriated
March 23, 2013, 10:01 PM
I haven't bought ammo since December 21st.


Got some reloading components that've come along at a good price, but I've actively not bought ammo. I'm not taking part in this insanity.

Queen_of_Thunder
March 23, 2013, 10:01 PM
I don't think it will make much difference.

Based on a conversation with the ammo counter clerk at my local Wal-Mart, the same small group of people (less than 5) camp out in the store for 3-4 hours waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in. They buy it all and the shelves stay bare.

Any real solution will have to get through to the small but highly motivated group of people who are insuring that the shelves stay empty.

People don't understand how the ammunition supply chain works. It doesn't take very many people to start or maintain an ammunition shortage, and once it's established, it takes a long time for things to get back to normal.The information is out there, but the truth isn't as "sexy" as the conspiracy theories. In a recent year, DHS shooting facilities trained 70,000 federal LEOs from 90 different agencies. That takes a LOT of ammunition, and that doesn't even get into issue ammunition for the approximately 150,000 federal LEOs and training that takes place in other LE training facilities.

Besides the massive figures that are being bandied about on the web are actually for multi-year OPTION contracts. That is, the contracts allow the government the OPTION to purchase up to the stated amounts, they are not fixed quantity contracts.
My WalMart doesn't get ammo but my local Acadmy does. I show up as early as 6am a full 2 hours before the store opens in hopes of getting first dibs on what ever shows up. I've been doing this since January. Its down right cold and the wind doesn't help either. I and a few others do this just to get our 1 box of ammo. If we are lucky we might leave with 1box each of 22lr,9mm and 223 and there have been times when there was nothing to buy.

Thing is every store I know of has limits, some here locally will only sell ammo if you buy a gun. If you shop online you also see limits on the amount you can purchase.

Now this excuse of people standing in line to buy all of the ammo up is nonsense. I suggest if you or anyone else who wants ammo that you adopt our methods. If you want ammo these days you have to work for it and that means standing in line waiting to buy ammo be it at Walmart,Academy or where ever. It hasn't been easy but the work has paid off.

Dave Rishar
March 23, 2013, 10:51 PM
Based on a conversation with the ammo counter clerk at my local Wal-Mart, the same small group of people (less than 5) camp out in the store for 3-4 hours waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in. They buy it all and the shelves stay bare.

Any real solution will have to get through to the small but highly motivated group of people who are insuring that the shelves stay empty.

This has been my experience as well. Last month, I rolled in at around 0430 just to see what was what. There was a line at the ammo counter. When I asked the "regulars" about it, they said that they did this all the time; furthermore, they knew what had been delivered before it showed up. I pretty much gave up on Walmart at that point. I'd be willing to get up early for ammo if I needed some, but I'm not willing to wait in line for one to three hours after I get there.

Interestingly enough, last week the LGS had literally thousands of rounds of milsurp (not American) 5.56mm, Tula 7.62x39, and Yugo 7.62x54 with a bit of commercial as well. Also multiple cases of Tula .45 ACP. They even had a few hundred CCI .22LR. I didn't buy any because I didn't need any and they wanted to much for everything but the 5.56mm, but the guy behind the counter said that he gets stuff in every couple of weeks and it usually lasts for a week or two.

He did mention that the stuff that was more expensive than usual was the distributor's fault - he mentioned that they'd been gouging him. Of course, this store had been expensive before any of this happened, so who knows?

I can't make sense of it.

fanchisimo
March 23, 2013, 10:59 PM
Queen, I don't think anybody blames shooters that wait in line to get ammo, but personally, I am disgusted by the people that do that to turn around and sell it for a profit, but not to shoot it. In my area, it's a mid-20's guy and a woman with him. I don't know about her, but the clerk said the guy is on welfare. I think stuff like that bothers all of us, but not true gun owners putting in the time to find ammo.

rgwalt
March 23, 2013, 11:13 PM
Queen, I don't think anybody blames shooters that wait in line to get ammo, but personally, I am disgusted by the people that do that to turn around and sell it for a profit, but not to shoot it. In my area, it's a mid-20's guy and a woman with him. I don't know about her, but the clerk said the guy is on welfare. I think stuff like that bothers all of us, but not true gun owners putting in the time to find ammo.
He is taking a risk buying ammo to resell. The market will get progressively softer. There won't be some magical moment when one day we all wake up and ammo is plentiful at normal prices. It is going to be gradual. More ammo will become available, people will replenish whatever stock they feel comfortable with, and the resellers will see their margins drop to the point that they can't break even after tax. If the resellers aren't careful, they will end up with a supply that they will have to take a loss on.

A free market is a free market. I choose not to pay their prices because I'd rather be in line at Academy, and/or find other sources. The resellers are making money because there is demand. You don't have to like it, but capitalism is a double edged sword.

JohnKSa
March 23, 2013, 11:21 PM
Now this excuse of people standing in line to buy all of the ammo up is nonsense. I suggest if you or anyone else who wants ammo that you adopt our methods. If you want ammo these days you have to work for it and that means standing in line waiting to buy ammo be it at Walmart,Academy or where ever. It hasn't been easy but the work has paid off. This isn't about my getting ammo. I have plenty of ammunition because when it's plentiful and the prices are low, I buy it in bulk and keep a stocked inventory so I don't run out when people get crazy--like they are right now.

What's more, the ammunition comes directly to my door so I don't even have to drive to the store to get it, and better yet, I buy it at prices lower than I would pay at the local store--even after factoring shipping into the final price.

The problem is that people who didn't, or couldn't plan ahead, and who can't spend 10-14 hours a week camped out at a big box store can't get ammunition, and the even bigger problem is that because the shelves are staying bare, more people every day are being convinced that there's a reason to be panicked and that will extend the shortage even longer.

black_powder_Rob
March 23, 2013, 11:23 PM
Well like a few others I have been pretty well stocked up on most of my ammo needs for a while and have not had the need to purchase any ammo for over a year, but recently I won a raffle and acquired a new mouth to feed. So now I am doing what I did for the other calibers. Ordering components and dyes on back order and waiting patiently. But I will do my best not to add to the ammo problem. (Does it count as hording if they are not all assembled into a usable bullet?)

Lex Luthier
March 23, 2013, 11:26 PM
Acquired one box of .45 JHP about two months ago. Otherwise haven't bought a bullet in over six months. Watching the circus.

rondog
March 23, 2013, 11:38 PM
Anyone who stops buying ammo in protest will just deprive themselves of ammo. There's millions of others out there who won't participate, you'd only hurt yourself and miss out.

Killian
March 23, 2013, 11:41 PM
Based on a conversation with the ammo counter clerk at my local Wal-Mart, the same small group of people (less than 5) camp out in the store for 3-4 hours waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in. They buy it all and the shelves stay bare.



Walmart has a 3 box per day maximum for all calibers. (Some places only let you buy one box.) You can buy 3 boxes of 9mm, or 2 boxes of 9mm and .one .45 etc. That means these 5 guys are buying up 15 boxes of various calibers (.38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45, .22, .308, .223 etc etc) and some how they are completely emptying the shelves? Spread across 10 or 15 popular calibers?

I've stood in a line a couple of times recently. Not early in the morning but during the day when I walked in and they magically just happened to have had ammo. Talking with the other 3 or 4 guys also waiting, I found out most of them were just buying ammo to go shoot a box to keep up to date on their practicing or teaching their kid how to shoot or something similar.

There are some people selling ammo at high prices. I imagine they are people who stocked up 10 years ago. I doubt the existence of dedicated mass hordes of "flippers" who are stalking Walmart each day with the idea of making double their money on a resale. Has it happened? I'm sure it has. Are there large numbers of people doing it and this somehow explains why ammo is tough to get? No. The simple truth is that your buddy, your neighbor, your cousin, your friends and everyone else you know decided a couple of months ago that they'd rather have ammo than not. Since everyone decided to do it all at once, we've got a supply problem now. That's it. End of story.

As George Bailey might say, "You're thinking of this all wrong. The ammo's not here. It's in Bill's house. And Jean's house. And Fred's house. You know them. That's where it's gone."

GAF
March 23, 2013, 11:43 PM
I have spent the sum total of $23 on ammo since December 2012. That is all I could find at a price I was willing to pay.

JohnKSa
March 23, 2013, 11:45 PM
That means these 5 guys are buying up 15 boxes of various calibers (.38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45, .22, .308, .223 etc etc) and some how they are completely emptying the shelves? Spread across 10 or 15 popular calibers? This goes back to my comment about people not understanding the ammunition supply chain.

The typical Wal-Mart store doesn't get thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition every day. They might get in 8 boxes of 9mm one week, and then maybe none the next week, then maybe another 10 the week after that. They're not set up to totally refill the shelves every time they get an order because they don't typically sell that much. The less popular rounds would probably come in even less often and in smaller quantities.

Ordering more has little effect because the ammunition makers can't ramp up production past a point without expanding and buying additional machinery. They're not going to make that kind of investment--they can't AFFORD to make that kind of investment based on a temporary spike in demand that will be gone in 6 months or so.

So YES. Once the shelves are bare, it takes only a handful of "dedicated" people to keep them bare.

It does take a good bit of demand to empty them in the first place, but after that it takes very little effort to keep the shortage going.

Prophet
March 23, 2013, 11:48 PM
Based on a conversation with the ammo counter clerk at my local Wal-Mart, the same small group of people (less than 5) camp out in the store for 3-4 hours waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in. They buy it all and the shelves stay bare.

Ditto at my local Wal-Mart. The employee I spoke with said most of the folks in line openly admit to buying the ammo for resale on the web. My dad was able to score 2 bulk boxes of .45 for me by chance the other day. It would be nice if Wal-Mart could randomize their ammo stocking times to prevent the same group of people from getting all the ammo.

Killian
March 23, 2013, 11:55 PM
This goes back to my comment about people not understanding the ammunition supply chain.

The typical Wal-Mart store doesn't get thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition every day. They might get in 8 boxes of 9mm one week, and then maybe none the next week, then maybe another 10 the week after that. They're not set up to totally refill the shelves every time they get an order because they don't typically sell that much. The less popular rounds would probably come in even less often and in smaller quantities.

Ordering more has little effect because the ammunition makers can't ramp up production past a point without expanding and buying additional machinery. They're not going to make that kind of investment--they can't AFFORD to make that kind of investment based on a temporary spike in demand that will be gone in 6 months or so.

So YES. Once the shelves are bare, it takes only a handful of "dedicated" people to keep them bare.

It does take a good bit of demand to empty them in the first place, but after that it takes very little effort to keep the shortage going.
Partially. But it's more a function of Walmart's staffing. The ammo usually comes in case sizes cause that is how the manager in sporting goods orders them. No one buys 8 boxes because 8 boxes don't come in a case. Unless you are specially ordering some ammo for a customer who wants .21 Lilliput or some odd caliber. I've got relatives working in sporting goods. They say that they don't have time to put it out. So there may be 200 cases of ammo in the back in the gun room.They don't just leave it out. But with ONE person stocking the shelves...and having to spend 30 minutes running a NICS check on a gun purchase, and having to rearrange end caps, and doing 10,000 other things...they end up with not enough time to put ammo out.

Edit: It doesn't come in every day though. This is correct. But when it does come in from the Wal Mart DC (distribution center) they have piled ALL the ammo they have for your store on that shipment. If they have it, you get it. So when stores DO get a shipment in, it's 100's of boxes, or 10 cases, or however many the DC had that was suppose to go to your store. They don't send it as 1 case here, and then the next day another case. They put it on the "ammo pallet" for shipment.

Deaf Smith
March 24, 2013, 12:00 AM
I reload and have plenty of everything. I just about never buy ammo now unless I get lazy at reloading (and at today's prices I just don't buy ammo from stores.)

Deaf

fanchisimo
March 24, 2013, 12:04 AM
The resellers are not gonna lose money, if nothing else, they can sell it for what they paid for it, keeping whatever profits they had made if they didn't roll all of the profits into constantly increasing their supply.

Dr.Rob
March 24, 2013, 12:06 AM
I haven't bought any since November.

btg3
March 24, 2013, 12:09 AM
Got ammo? It seems we are becoming divided into the "haves" and "have nots".

Of course it is expected that the "have nots" complain that it's not fair and that somehow the playing field should be made even.

Perhaps if the 2A weren't so infringed, ammo might be included with the other entitlements Uncle Sam is handing out.

Are we better off with the current capitalistic market or would a government solution be preferable?

tubeshooter
March 24, 2013, 12:26 AM
I bought a brick of Remington .22 shorts as an "insurance brick" about 3 weeks ago.

I shoot mostly .22, and it will feed some things I have, and it was pre-frenzy price. So why not?



Other than that, I have not bought anything. I have what I need, and I don't want to contribute to the problem. I am trying to wait it out.

rgwalt
March 24, 2013, 12:41 AM
Got ammo? It seems we are becoming divided into the "haves" and "have nots".

Of course it is expected that the "have nots" complain that it's not fair and that somehow the playing field should be made even.

Perhaps if the 2A weren't so infringed, ammo might be included with the other entitlements Uncle Sam is handing out.

Are we better off with the current capitalistic market or would a government solution be preferable?
You hit on a major point here. All the people that are complaining about flippers, resellers, fairness, and the lack of ammo are some of the same people that preach the virtues of self reliance, small government, and denounce handouts and regulation. Well, you can't have someone else change the game in your favor without having that someone meddling in all of your other business, too. It is the entitlement mentality at work, and it makes me sick. Get your behind out of bed in the morning and join me and others waiting in line at 6 or 7am if you want ammo so bad. Or pay the resellers. Or wait. Your choice, but don't complain that the situation is "unfair".

-Gadsden-
March 24, 2013, 12:45 AM
I'd love to have ammo not to buy - I've been going to Walmart every saturday morning at 6:30am (not to mention other weekdays) for over a month to catch the new load off the truck for 9mm. Still haven't gotten any

Ignition Override
March 24, 2013, 01:02 AM
Having planned ahead before the last two elections (we were warned), the only wait for many of is for more dry weather on our days off.
Even the mass tragedies of Virgina Tech or Aurora etc could have led to this situation, with no advance warning.

stompah
March 24, 2013, 01:04 AM
To the guys who cannot find ammo anywhere, besides looking at Walmart where else you looking? I reload so the only ammo I have bought since the buying frenzy were 2 boxes of .45 hollow points.

On my excursions to gun shops and my daily life I find ammo everywhere. Is there a wide variety at every store? No. But its out there and at normal or slightly higher prices.

You guys need to give up on Walmart and start hitting a few local gun shops.

JohnKSa
March 24, 2013, 01:12 AM
The ammo shortage, the fault of five particular people at every walmart store. The ammo & gun run of 2012/13 is the fault of only one party, and its a political one.The first sentence is a mischaracterization of what I said. What I said was that once the shelves are bare, it doesn't take many people to keep things that way, and pointed out that was what was happening at one particular Wal-Mart near my house. Second, I see that you have conveniently ignored the fact that a number of other posters have corroborated the gist of comments with the information they have obtained independently from their locations.

The second sentence in the quote is correct for the most part as to the original cause of the shortage but misses the primary point I made which is that once the shortage is in effect, it can be maintained, and is being maintained by a relatively small number of people.Partially. But it's more a function of Walmart's staffing. The ammo usually comes in case sizes cause that is how the manager in sporting goods orders them. No one buys 8 boxes because 8 boxes don't come in a case. Unless you are specially ordering some ammo for a customer who wants .21 Lilliput or some odd caliber. I've got relatives working in sporting goods. They say that they don't have time to put it out. So there may be 200 cases of ammo in the back in the gun room.They don't just leave it out. But with ONE person stocking the shelves...and having to spend 30 minutes running a NICS check on a gun purchase, and having to rearrange end caps, and doing 10,000 other things...they end up with not enough time to put ammo out.I don't know what you tell you except that this runs contrary to everything I have heard from every informed source on the topic.

The Wal-Mart nearest my house posts the list of what they are expecting on the next truck, and when the truck comes in, they put out on the shelves exactly what the list predicted would come in. So no, I don't believe that they have thousands of rounds or hundreds of cases of ammo (at least not the high-demand calibers) sitting in the back that they won't put out because they're too busy to sell stuff. They may have a lot of birdshot in the back, if they were careless with their orders, because that stuff isn't selling and there's a ton of it out on the shelves, but no, I don't believe they would be placing purchase limits on something if they have a ton of it just sitting in the back--it defies logic.

Furthermore, when I drop in there at 8 or 9pm (I work late a lot), the sporting goods department is not busy and there's always a clerk hanging around taking care of minor issues. There's nothing to suggest that he can't get around to stocking the shelves, and the evidence from all accounts indicates that what they have, they put out. There's no reason for them to reserve stock that's selling like hotcakes by hiding it in the back. No matter how busy they are, ultimately they are in the business of selling stuff and you can't sell stuff that you hide from the customers.

They may be really busy at the Wal-Mart near your house, but I can assure you that at the 24HR Wal-Mart near my house in tiny-town semi-rural TX, they are not so busy that they can't put stock out on the shelves in the middle of the night. Especially since the sporting goods department closes at 10PM for ammo or firearm sales.

Ignition Override
March 24, 2013, 01:16 AM
This is just to help out the desperate. If high retail prices (with shipping incl.) for most of these are not a factor, you can find them
now at Ammoman, and most of these have been there since last Sunday night (six days ago):

.45 "Long Colt"
.44 Rem Mag.
.357 Magnum
.38 S&W-he sold out of .40 S&W after having it several days.
.32 ACP
9x18 Makarov
and maybe two other handgun 'flavors', one might be wadcutter.

5.56: Danish NATO
5.45x39 surplus
7.5 "Swiss", RUAG (Berdan).
7.62x54R surplus
Carcano
8x56RS
The very high prices for most of these seem to indicate why they are available (corr. primers in 5.45 and 7.62x54R),
for those who know about the company. Also, try "GunBot.com".

-Gadsden-
March 24, 2013, 01:19 AM
You guys need to give up on Walmart and start hitting a few local gun shops.
Wish I realistically had that option. I'm in a fairly urban area and the idea of "local gun shop" is non-existent here. I know of a few gun shops, but they are 30-45 mins away, and I'm just not willing to pay $20+ for 50 rounds of 9mm. Just my personal choice since I'm on a strict budget and Walmart is a mile away. I'm patient though, and I know things will calm down eventually. Glad others are having some luck though!

fanchisimo
March 24, 2013, 01:58 AM
Well, you can't have someone else change the game in your favor without having that someone meddling in all of your other business, too. It is the entitlement mentality at work, and it makes me sick.

rgwalt, it is entirely unfair that someone who doesn't work and has the time to sit around Wal-mart on our dime to buy ammo, then resell it to us at a mark-up, but is it that bad to hope for things to be fair? I don't think anybody wants a government authority to get involved with the issue as most of us preach the values you stated. We are hoping that these individuals maybe take it upon themselves to let others get some ammo that want it, but government intervention is not what we want to correct it. This occasional unfairness is part of the capitalism that makes this country great, but I am sorry that hoping for people to take it upon themselves to treat others as they wish to be treated makes you sick. I hope you have some Pepto close to you.

Mac2
March 24, 2013, 02:35 AM
This is one of the reasons I am so glad I reload. First and foremost is the joy of the hobby and custom loads I can tailor to each application, not to mention we shoot as much as we want and don't even think about it. Other than the case of 7.62 I bought a while back, I can't remember the last centerfire rounds I've bought. When I bought reloading components, I did so in mega bulk, to offset the hazmat charges and the shipping costs only a little more with mega bulk. Reloading components are as hard to get as ammo right now, but with what I have done before the crunch, we're good. We've slowed down a little, but we still get to the range when we want. We just shoot 100-150 each vs 200 each like we used to. I've certainly noticed less folks at the range because of the crunch. My wife thanked me the other week for going by the sporting section and buying "another one" of those bulk boxes of .22s about every 3rd time we went to Walmart. And I thought $19 was kinda steep then...

Tolkachi Robotnik
March 24, 2013, 02:43 AM
End of year is not a good time for an ammo run. Inventories were low and bottlenecks are obvious.

I did buy one box of ammo at Walmart, it was regularly priced and I have not shot it up yet. It was 9mm. I could have bought two more boxes but figured someone else might enjoy getting a box, it seemed novel to me at the time maybe ten days ago now.

I do believe a month of cooling off would be an idea. Get on-line and look at the 'deals', and don't feel any need to act.

LEO are not very likely to stockpile huge amounts of ammo. Most of them are about average or below for net worth and buy enough to get along. Local law enforcement agencies aren't that plush either.

The things that are short supply are (or were) really inexpensive and it does not cost most people any real loss to sit on a large supply. Before this all came down 9mm, .223, .308, and .22LR were all really low dollar ammo. The .45ACP was not as low dollar, and it stayed around awhile longer on the shelves.

Now around here 30-06 and 30-30 are pretty well fully stocked inventory. That either means the people who shoot them are less fragile psychologically, or the people who shoot those are more likely to have enough already. Maybe a little of both.

I believe it might make some difference if you just quit a month, and did not even go up looking for it...

The-Reaver
March 24, 2013, 03:18 AM
I have occasionally gotten lucky lately.

Mostly on crap ammo. I picked up 500 rounds of 7.62x25 for 30 cents a round.
I picked up some 9x19 ( Value pack ) $20 bucks.
Some 7.62x39 ( Tula ) $5.98 a box.

Same prices as prior to the start of this nonsense. I refuse to jump into this scare crap and pay outrages prices.

Ignition Override
March 24, 2013, 04:56 AM
"GunBot" seems to be updated much more often than Ammoseek.

Bobson
March 24, 2013, 05:50 AM
This reminds me of those emails a few years back when gas was approaching $2.50 a gallon for the first time ever, and people were freaking out and insisting on a "Don't Buy Gas" day, declaring that one day without sales would break the backs of the oil companies, forcing them to give in and drop prices. Bottom line is that on the day after, or the month following one where nobody buys ammo, the prior need is still there - and it might even be higher than it was before.

This wouldn't solve any problems, except for those of us who would agree, then sneak off and buy ammo anyway.

btg3
March 24, 2013, 09:34 AM
We are hoping that these individuals maybe take it upon themselves to let others get some ammo that want it,
Is this realistic? Consider those that line up at the big box for a chance to buy ammo. Locally, it seems the first 10 people leave slim pickings for the remaining 20 people that had waited in line. So if 30% complied with your "hoping", the problem would shift, but not be resolved. What level of abstinence do you think might be effective and do you actually think it is plausible? How so?

I think your proposal is consistent with liberal thinking and wealth redistribution.

jmorris
March 24, 2013, 09:37 AM
this guy has some interesting points. If we all stop buying ammo for a month will prices go down?


I haven't bought any ammo or reloading components since last September as I wanted a jump on the post election panic. All I have seen is prices go up.

It's too late for "all" to stock up and if you quit shooting "they" have won.

Double_J
March 24, 2013, 10:00 AM
I bought a couple of boxes of ammo last September/October to replace some old carry ammo I had. Even then I was not seeing that good of prices nor selection at my local gun store. Right now my local Walmart and local gun stores have almost ZERO stock on ammo, outside of some exotic large caliber ammo i.e. 7mm Rem. Mag, .338 Mag, .300 Mag, etc. When they do get ammo in even if they limit sales to three boxes per person it still gets wiped out. One clerk at Walmart told me that a family of 5 would come in and wipe out the entire stock order of handgun ammo. I can't compete against that as they have the numbers to buy all of it up at one time.

I know everyone says to "stock up" and if you didn't "stock up" it is your own fault. Right now I have 6 co-workers who are considering buying their first guns. What do I tell them to do about ammo? Oh, you should have bought some last year/5 years ago/whenever? I told them if they see some buy it. I warned them that it has been a bubble and prices are out of control. This bubble will pop, but we need to watch how we handle the new person coming into our ranks, as they don't know what normal prices are. We need to also be more empathetic to their plight and attempt to help them when we can. We are a LARGE community, and it does not help us to fight amongst ourselves. We can be our own worst enemy, even more so than those who wish to take it all away from us.

Peter Kuykendall
March 24, 2013, 10:14 AM
Over the last few months I've bought thousands of rounds at what is nowadays considered good prices (e.g. 32 cents / round for .223, 6 cents / round for .22LR, 34 cents / round for 7.62 x 39). It can be done with the help of some online tools, but you have to check often and strike quickly because the good deals sell out within minutes.

I've had good luck using gunbot (http://www.gunbot.net/) and gun deals (http://gun-deals.com/ammo). Some vendors will be out of stock but will let you backorder and / or set up for email notification when it comes back into stock. You can have it send an email to a service that converts it to a text message which immediately arrives at your cell phone.

After a few trips to my local Wal-Mart, sporting goods stores, and gun shops that all came up dry, I just focused on mail order purchases. It's worked out very well.

I did some research on worldwide ammo production and consumption in order to try to figure out how long this shortage will last (link (http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/797003446001/m/583002648001)). Sadly I think we are in for a long run of high prices & low supply, which is why I'm buying it sooner rather than later. The political trend in the US is clear, so the tax / import restrictions / purchase restriction outlook is gloomy going forward IMO.

Sapper771
March 24, 2013, 10:15 AM
I am thankful to have a LGS that has plenty of reasonably priced ammo right now. So , if I was to stop buying ammo for a month, it would not help anyone but it would hurt me.

Back in 2008, I would travel up to 125 miles away in search for ammo. I had more success than failure. These travels gave me a chance to visit new gun shops and extend my "network". I do/did not rely on Walmart for ammo.

breakingcontact
March 24, 2013, 11:01 AM
No the prices won't go down with the rate the American government is buying up ammo.

Stocking up for expected civil unrest?

Artificially causing a ammo drought, causing price rises to a point that put mass buys are out of the reach of civilians?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Retweet.

danez71
March 24, 2013, 12:10 PM
If you stop buying gas for a month will the price go down? Same answer. No.


Huge difference.

Generally speaking, we Americans cant go a month with out gas. There is a very high minimum rate of consumption of gas that is needed to keep this country running.

Conversely, there is a very low rate of minimum consumption of ammo needed to keep this country running for a month.

Killian
March 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
The Wal-Mart nearest my house posts the list of what they are expecting on the next truck, and when the truck comes in, they put out on the shelves exactly what the list predicted would come in. So no, I don't believe that they have thousands of rounds or hundreds of cases of ammo (at least not the high-demand calibers) sitting in the back that they won't put out because they're too busy to sell stuff. They may have a lot of birdshot in the back, if they were careless with their orders, because that stuff isn't selling and there's a ton of it out on the shelves, but no, I don't believe they would be placing purchase limits on something if they have a ton of it just sitting in the back--it defies logic.

Furthermore, when I drop in there at 8 or 9pm (I work late a lot), the sporting goods department is not busy and there's always a clerk hanging around taking care of minor issues. There's nothing to suggest that he can't get around to stocking the shelves, and the evidence from all accounts indicates that what they have, they put out. There's no reason for them to reserve stock that's selling like hotcakes by hiding it in the back. No matter how busy they are, ultimately they are in the business of selling stuff and you can't sell stuff that you hide from the customers.


200 boxes, which I used as an example, was an over exaggeration. My point is that when I go to Walmart I usually find one overworked person who is handling ten different things. Cash register, phone, background check, stocking, price changing and rearranging things. IF they aren't in another department mixing paint or getting toys off the shelf 3 aisles over from sporting goods. I often--no, make that always--have to go search down the person working in sporting goods. Your Walmart may vary.

Ammunition comes in infrequently at Walmart. I have never seen a list that shows the next day's order. I'll ask about that on my next visit, but I do not believe that is standard here. When ammunition does come in though, typically it comes in a case, which I have been told is how managers in sporting goods order the ammo. Whether they receive an entire case or not is subject to what the ammo company sends them. Since they usually order multiple calibers on a single order, a lot of time these all arrive on the same day, or within one day, of each other. So an order to Federal may come in with 3 cases of 9mm, .3 cases of .40 and 3 cases of .45 and whatever other rounds were ordered as part of the same shipment. Then there may not be another arrival for many many days, or weeks, from another company. So when this order comes in on it's pallet, or multiple pallets but arriving on the same day, then the ammo may be stocked by the night crew, or left for the morning people to stock. I've seen it done both ways. Some of it may be placed in the gun room.......because you do NOT want to leave boxes of ammo sitting on the back loading dock unattended. Too much employee pilferage. Too much of a temptation right now.

IF it is left for the morning crew to stock behind the sporting goods desk, then it will be a matter of when they choose to stock it. Most of the time it is put out when they get there. But if the sporting goods person is called away, or they are get busy with something else, it is not unheard of for them to leave the ammo sitting there for half a day or longer. It really does depend on how busy they are.

In prior years, I know for a fact it was not uncommon for ammunition to remain in the gun room. Why? Well if the spot on your shelf for .45ACP was full, and you had more boxes, you would leave them in the gun room. This is how ammunition would get "lost". It would get buried under some other items, like other ammo shipments, or boxed rifles and shotguns, and would be found later when the employee unburied it and said, "Oh...I didn't know I had these." Likewise, if the ammo was placed in your gun room overnight to keep it from being stolen, then you might not know you have ammo until you either look in the gun room, or check on some list to see if you had any arrive. Again it might be hours, or a couple of days if you have no reason to go to the gun room. This seems unlikely now with all the demand. In prior years, I know it happened though.

Don't misunderstand me. I do not believe Walmart employees are failing to put out ammuntion. I believe they do so when they have time. I'm firmly in the camp that believes NO ammo is coming into the stores right now. Companies are on backorder just trying to fill the internet orders they received in Jan/Feb. They will be til October, some of the sights are saying, before those companies catch up with already existing purchases. What little they send out to stores is just a token effort to keep their products on the shelves and as a sop to Walmart so they'll get off their backs.

What I do think is false though is the idea that a small group is coming every day to Walmart and purchasing the ammo. Ammo isn't even arriving every day. So if these guys are standing around doing that, or coming in to check the list every day, then they aren't scoring ammo every single day, because ammo doesn't come in every single day. When ammo does arrive, it usually arrives in 3 or 4 cases, maybe 7 or 8, it all depends on how much they ordered. If two or three companies ordered from--Federal, Remington, Winchester for example--all happen to arrive on the same day, then you might have 30 or 40 cases, or more, of ammo arriving all at once. Those 5 guys you used as an example are limited to 3 boxes of whatever type. I'm having a tough time figuring how it is that they--by themselves--are managing to buy up the 15 boxes of ammo per day (5 guys x3 boxes) and totally denuding the shelves of ammo of all calibers. They might make a dent in a 1000 round case of one caliber, but there would still be some left over even then.

The truth is that other "average Joes" are coming in to buy their three boxes of ammo and by the time 15 or 20 of them come thru--then 3 cases of ammo is gone. 20 times 3...60 boxes. 3000 rounds. 1000 round case. So 3 cases gone. That's all it would take. The first 20 people. If only one or two cases come in, then only 10 people.

Really...there's no big mystery here and no conspiracy of ammo flippers. It's just a bunch of people--average folk--decided that all of them needed ammo in large quantities all at the same time.

Shanghai McCoy
March 24, 2013, 12:17 PM
I haven't bought any ammo in a month because there hasn't been any ammo to BUY in a month.
What he said...:rolleyes:

fanchisimo
March 24, 2013, 01:32 PM
I think your proposal is consistent with liberal thinking and wealth redistribution.

Not even close. Liberal would be wanting an authority to get involved to force wealth redistribution. What I'm spouting is for people to help people VOLUNTARILY. It's more like charity. For instance, when a natural crisis happens, some people horde, yes, but you also often see people helping absolute strangers without someone making them. That is what I want.

Let's use your numbers at walmart. Overall you said 10 people get ammo while 20 others get nothing. Since Walmart has a three box limit that would mean there were 30 boxes available. So if those ten people abstained and only grabbed one box, as well as the ones behind them, everybody would get ammo. I agree it's unrealistic that 29 people would use that restraint to make sure everybody got some, but that kind of charity would be nice as long as it's not forced as in wealth redistribution. Then it's not charity at all.

greenmtnguy
March 24, 2013, 02:13 PM
Heck, at this point I'd be happy to score a few hundred primers in any of my local gun shops - or a brick or two of 22LR.

Plan2Live
March 24, 2013, 02:36 PM
The ammo is flowing into the local Wally World but the management and employees have been playing games with it. On the whole, they are getting tired of the parade of people asking for ammo that isn't available.

I went by the Garner's Ferry Walmart one night just before 10pm, nothing on the shelf nothing behind the counter. This store will not sell between 10pm and 6am. I returned the next morning around 5:50am and saw an unopened case of .38 and an empty case (8 boxes) of 555 Winchester .22. When I located a "manager" I was told I couldn't buy before 7:00 so I waited. When the sporting goods person finally showed up I asked about the empty box of .22 and was told that the night crew must have bought it. I asked "before 7?" No reply.

Yesterday the three stores I hit had a scattering of PPC (or PPU??) 380 and 9mm. Today one store had nothing, one had Federal 9mm and Winchester 45 and I didn't hit the other one due to laziness and inclimate weather. Another ammo stalker I have connected with reported the two stores he hit about 30 minutes away from me had .22 bulk packs, 9mm, 40 and 45 caliber and no one in line.

At one WM I watched about 20 boxes of Tulammo 7.62X39 sit on the shelf for a week then disappear in one day.

So it is out there and it doesn't always fly off the shelves. You just have to be consistent, persistent and patient.

joeschmoe
March 24, 2013, 03:09 PM
Huge difference.
Generally speaking, we Americans cant go a month with out gas. There is a very high minimum rate of consumption of gas that is needed to keep this country running.
Conversely, there is a very low rate of minimum consumption of ammo needed to keep this country running for a month.
No. Proportionately they are the same. There is a much larger industry to supply gas. Those of us who live in small towns often go a month between fill ups, while avid shooters must buy ammo every month to keep up with their needs.

The point being that a percentage of the buyers boycotting purchases does not reduce prices. This is a temporary shortage. Supplies have been getting tight for years, prices have been climbing while more new gun owners join the market. This was inevitable. Many of us saw these factors coming years in advance.

45_auto
March 24, 2013, 03:10 PM
Store employees around here buy all the common calibers (.22, 9mm, 223, etc) for themselves and their buddies before it ever makes it to the shelf.

Peter Kuykendall
March 24, 2013, 04:26 PM
There isn't a shortage of ammo. There is a shortage of *cheap* ammo. It's the same with Ferraris. Unlike Ferraris, you can occasionally score ammo at well under market price, enough to fill your stock.

I don't see ammo prices declining much over the long term. There are a number of factors driving that, most of which I have already linked to. Yes the political situation in the US is driving up US civilian demand at the moment. But that has exactly nothing to do with the *world wide* shortage of ammo in large calibers, including tank rounds. For example, the Indian army's recent disclosure that it would run dry of many types of ammo, mostly heavy, after just 3 days of a shooting war illustrates the component shortages that are a big part of it. The world wide drastic production capacity decline over the last 70 years limits supply. The endless printing of fiat currency raises price, as measured in fiat currency. The majority of the component supply chain coming from single vendors and / or unfriendly countries, all contribute to supply risk. Some of those risks prevent the construction of more production capacity, so it persists.

Since I live in the Kolorado Soviet I have to buy enough mags to last the rest of my life by July 1. Enough for the rest of my life. Consider that for a moment in the supply / demand climate. The only rational response is to buy now, while you can.

I'm under no illusions that the US political forces going forward are going to ease off. Quite the contrary. The gun grabbers are politically smart and relentless and utterly without scruples. You can bet they have a whole package of new restrictions waiting to go after the next massacre. They will make it hard to buy ammo in many ways, via taxes, import limits, purchase limits, ownership limits, prohibitions against online purchases, special licenses, background checks, you name it, they will dream it up and push it. All of these will stimulate more buying while it's still relatively cheap. The Republicans are utterly unable to stop anything that the Democrats do. The Democrats know this and are swinging for the fences while they have the Republicans on their backs. The train is rolling straight towards us. You can buy ammo now or wait and wish you did. Just my $0.02 anyway.

No4Mk1*
March 24, 2013, 04:31 PM
The best way to help end this is to SELL ammo. I sold off $3000 worth in Feb and am considering selling off a few thousand more in an upcoming Proxibid auction in April. Until people willing to pay $70 for a brick of .22 run out of money this will continue. I may try to help them lose some more money...

SharpsDressedMan
March 24, 2013, 05:38 PM
^^^^That would work. One does not HAVE to buy anything that they consider overpriced, but many will.

jim243
March 24, 2013, 05:45 PM
Not sure how I can help on this, I haven't bought ammo in 6 years, only shoot my own reloads, so it wasn't me that caused the shortages.

Jim

bri
March 24, 2013, 06:19 PM
I visit the Walmart by my office once a week and have come away with ammo each and every time. Typically there's no 9mm or 223 but I've scored some steel case 45acp and 7.62x39. Usually grab some 30-30 or 30-06 and I'm on my way.

A broader caliber footprint, conservative use and patience got me though '08 just fine and will get me through the current situation as well.

ZVP
March 24, 2013, 06:30 PM
Same thing happened when Obama got elected. DUH do you suppose there would be another run on guns and ammo with his reelection?
It;s beyond me how ammo manufacturere could "play so dumb" amd then just make a killing on our wallets.
I'm not being synical I just don't like being screwed!
We are being screwed.
THey wanted to run prices up and to sell all available stores for profit and they did it.
It was a pure set-up.
ZVP

mrvco
March 24, 2013, 06:42 PM
Walmart is the single worst place to buy ammo right now... they were the first to run out and they'll be the last to maintain inventory. It would get better faster if they would adjust their pricing to the market conditions so that it was less profitable for the AMMO-OLIGARCHS sucking up all the inventory to sell at gun shows.

tech30528
March 24, 2013, 06:50 PM
Haven't bought any in a while except for 7.62x54r which seems to immune. Needed a new freezer so I sold 3 bicks of 22 on GB for a conbined $311. What I'm more surprised by is the price o "assault weapons". Fineswine's bill got thrown out, there is no AWB, at least for now. I've been watching a few and the bidding seems to have slowed down a bit but I'm still seeing stuff for almost twice what it should be going for.

ZeSpectre
March 24, 2013, 06:50 PM
Jumpin Jaysis, I just sent petition letters to the major ammo manufacturers trying to get some ammo for my club's annual "youth training day" and "ladies training day" 'cause even though the club has funds we can't FIND any damned ammo for sale.

helitack32f1
March 24, 2013, 07:02 PM
How could the ammo manufacturers not know this was coming?
Same thing happened when Obama got elected. DUH do you suppose there would be another run on guns and ammo with his reelection?
It;s beyond me how ammo manufacturere could "play so dumb" amd then just make a killing on our wallets.
I'm not being synical I just don't like being screwed!
We are being screwed.
THey wanted to run prices up and to sell all available stores for profit and they did it.
It was a pure set-up.
ZVP


I think everyone forgets that this entire rush on ammo was timed perfectly to coincide with the Dept. of Homeland Security ordering 1.6 BILLION rounds of ammo. I believe this is all by design to create the shortage. Manufacturers could possibly have seen a run on ammo coming but I doubt they saw that coming in conjunction with an order of 1,600,000,000 rounds by our overseers.

Just to put that in perspective, DHS claims to have 100,000 people to buy ammo for. That works out to 16,000 rounds of ammo for each, so they can fire 43 rounds a day, for 365 days.

clutch
March 24, 2013, 07:17 PM
Last week I picked up a box of Federal .223 and two boxes of tulammo 7.62x39 at a walmart up north. The three box limit is in effect.

The grocery store near work has WW .308 180g on most days. I bought a rifle in .308 in December and thought it wouldn't be hard to buy new brass, bullets, dies to get rolling ammo for it. I had to resort to purchasing loaded ammo to get brass. :eek:

After a couple months of trying I have dies, 190g HPBT and 168g HPBT's to load into the brass once I fire it.

I have 160 rounds of factory ammo waiting for the snow to melt, once I shoot a box or two, I can start load development.

I last purchased bulk pack .22 lr on Dec 27th. I'm not a fan of golden bullets but the box was sitting there and I had a gift cart. Tomorrow, I have two bricks of Eley showing up via ups which makes it 3 months between .22 LR buys. The other 14,000 rounds of rimfire were purchased before the election.

In fairness to walmart and the grocery store I buy at, they have kept their prices in line and haven't taken advantage of the situation. Companies like CTD are dead to me.

Last night I managed to order .356 and .401 sizer dies for my lubersizer. I put molds for 9mm and 10mm on back order with a place that will ship complete when they come in.

Since I haven't paid extra for anything, I think I may have saved money by slowing down my rate of purchase of gun stuff.

I feel for those that are not paying attention and decide to head to the range on a spring day after stopping for ammo. They are likely going to be very disappointed.

I have fair amount of components. Each event seems to raise what I think is reasonable to have on hand and I replace what I shoot as I shoot it. I'm not causing the shortage, I've been part of demand for a long time, I'm planned in. A lot of us are planned in. Darn newbies. :D

PabloJ
March 24, 2013, 07:22 PM
The current situation has nothing to do with government agencies procurement of ammo. Most of the folks hoarding for whatever reason are beyond help. The only antidote to current affliction is to STOP buying.

helitack32f1
March 24, 2013, 07:49 PM
The current situation has nothing to do with government agencies procurement of ammo. Most of the folks hoarding for whatever reason are beyond help. The only antidote to current affliction is to STOP buying.
Soooo, you really think that civilians buying ammo is affecting price and availability but the Gov't procuring enough ammo to supply the Iraq war for 16 years has no effect? Interesting concept.

CJW
March 24, 2013, 08:23 PM
In my view, to stop buying ammo is to do exactly what the antis want. They want to make it so expensive that people just quit. There is a simple equation to keep in mind....the more ammo we buy, the more we will have, and the more we will vex the anti-gun crowd that wants to restrict it. There are always good deals to be found if you look. I say: keep looking, keep buying, keep the industry strong, and get as much ammo as possible into the private sector before the .gov either buys it all, restricts it, or taxes it into oblivion.

PabloJ
March 24, 2013, 08:29 PM
soooo, you really think that civilians buying ammo is affecting price and availability but the gov't procuring enough ammo to supply the iraq war for 16 years has no effect? Interesting concept.
absolutely. There is no hope of stoping paranoid hoarders so you shouldn't even try. I just keep away from places where ammo is sold.

JohnKSa
March 24, 2013, 09:32 PM
My friend that is almost entirely hyperbole.What it almost is, or almost isn't, doesn't matter. What it actually is, does. What it is, unfortunately appears to be reality.Do you have any idea how many tens of millions of rounds of ammunition have been soaked up?Yes, actually I have a very good idea of how much ammunition has been soaked up because I spend a good deal of my time studying such things....when is the last time you saw a Walmart stock anything but Winchester floor ammo, and the obligatory boxes of twenty of the premium stuff?In my area, they usually stock a number of brands in the practice ammo. The Federal and WWB 100 packs are the two staples, but I also see Remington 100 packs, Tula, RWS, Winchester and other practice ammunition brands for sale in 9mm.Walmart's portion of the ammo market, is miniscule comparatively speaking...I would be quite interested in seeing some evidence to support this claim.We have an ammo crunch solely due to the nefarious anti-gun machinations of the president of the US...I see you missed (or ignored) part of my earlier reply. Here it is again.

You are correct for the most part as to the original & primary cause of the current shortage but your statement misses the primary point which is that once the shortage is in effect, it can be maintained, and is being maintained by a relatively small number of people.

We all understand why and how this started, but not many people understand how easy it is to keep it going once it's in full swing and the ammunition supply chain has been essentially emptied of popular calibers.200 boxes, which I used as an example...Actually, you said "200 cases" initially and then later in that post said 100s of boxes or 10 cases. Doesn't matter, it's all an exaggeration over what I'm seeing in this area and what I'm reading that others are seeing in their area.

What's happening here is that the local Wal-Marts are, at best, getting in a case or two of 9mm ammunition every couple of weeks or so. In the case of the ubiquitous 100 packs, that amounts to 10-20 boxes every 14 days. ... it is not unheard of for them to leave the ammo sitting there for half a day or longer.Sure, I can see someone not getting ammo out for half a day or so, especially if it comes in during a rush period, but that's not even remotely similar to the impression that a claim like the one you originally posted is intended to convey. Here is what you said:

"They say that they don't have time to put it out. So there may be 200 cases of ammo in the back in the gun room. They don't just leave it out.
...
...they end up with not enough time to put ammo out. "

At the Wal-Mart nearest my house, they freely tell the customers what time the restocking truck deliveries arrive, and the ammo shelves, within an hour or so of the predicted time, are stocked with whatever the list said was going to arrive. That's part of how it came about that there is a small but dedicated group of folks camping out for 3 hrs or more waiting for the truck to come in and for the shelves to be stocked.What I do think is false though is the idea that a small group is coming every day to Walmart and purchasing the ammo.You might want to reread the thread.

First of all, to be perfectly accurate, I didn't say they were doing it every day, I said that they were camping out "waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in." The shipments don't come in every day, so they don't camp out every day.

Second, other members have said that in their area, people are camping out on a regular basis, and we have one member who claims to have camped out daily at a local store for ammo purchases since January.

It certainly appears that there are adequate second and first person reports to strongly support the claim that the shortage is being maintained by a relatively small number of buyers.The truth is that other "average Joes" are coming in to buy their three boxes of ammo and by the time 15 or 20 of them come thru--then 3 cases of ammo is gone.Well, yes, of course the normal demand is still there on top of the panic buyers, but the normal demand isn't what is the problem. It obviously isn't enough to cause the shortage, and while it will slow the recovery, it also clearly doesn't make sense to posit that normal demand will keep the shortage from ending.Really...there's no big mystery here and no conspiracy of ammo flippers.Again, I think you need to read what I've actually said. I didn't claim that these were ammo flippers in my initial post, and in my second post on this thread, I made this comment.

"I think it's very likely that at least some of them are buying to resell, but I don't think it's a given that all of them are. "

It really doesn't matter, from a practical perspective, what they're doing with the ammunition, the bottom line is that they're keeping the Wal-Mart shelves bare and that's keeping the shortage alive in the minds of the millions of people in the U.S. who use Wal-Mart as their primary retailer.There isn't a shortage of ammo. There is a shortage of *cheap* ammo.Well, that was true a month or so ago, but now it's progressed further than that. It's hard to find anything in 9mm, and when you can, even if you want to purchase expensive stuff, you're likely have to take what's available. That often means only one loading in one brand, rather than being able to select options like bullet weight and manufacturer as would normally be the case.How could the ammo manufacturers not know this was coming?
Same thing happened when Obama got elected. DUH do you suppose there would be another run on guns and ammo with his reelection?
It;s beyond me how ammo manufacturere could "play so dumb" amd then just make a killing on our wallets. Whether they know or not, they don't have the option of expanding ammunition to completely meet large short term demand spikes. That would involve expansion and the purchase of additional machinery. Then when the demand spike was over, they would end up with unused floor space and millions of dollars of machinery sitting unused. It would bankrupt them.

They can only ramp up production by a limited amount unless it's clear that the demand increase is going to be permanent. Even then, expansion will be limited to meeting only as much as is warranted by the permanent increase. They will always be unable to fully respond to temporary large spikes in demand.Just to put that in perspective, DHS claims to have 100,000 people to buy ammo for. That works out to 16,000 rounds of ammo for each, so they can fire 43 rounds a day, for 365 days.That is incorrect.

1. There are more like 150,000 federal LEOs who would be the recipients of this ammunition in the form of training and issue ammunition.
2. The contract is not a single year contract, it is a 4-5 year contract.
3. The contract is not an actual order, it is an option contract. That is, it gives the DHS to right to purchase UP TO the stated amount over 4-5 years.

Even if you assume the full 1.6Billion is purchased (even though that's only the top limit amount), it still only works out to about 2100 rounds per federal agent per year. It's not at all an unreasonable amount given their requirements.The current situation has nothing to do with government agencies procurement of ammo.That's not correct. It's not the primary reason, nor is the procurement evidence of conspiracy, but clearly the government, both military and LE use a lot of ammunition. That usage contributes to the overall demand level, and clearly plays a part in the current situation.

bogon48
March 24, 2013, 09:59 PM
I reload, so I can shoot some, though I won't burn through hundreds of rounds during a visit to the range.

As for supplies, at the local WM, a 24 hour store, the fella who manages ammo told me that people show up at midnight with other folk to buy up what he gets. LGS told me the same story. While they also limit customers to three boxes, they recognized the customers who are coming in with friends to get around the limit.

So I just have to deal with it for now, and save to buy ammo and components when they are cheaper and more plentiful. That day will come. When? We'll all see.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 24, 2013, 10:06 PM
when this gets better..... Gun owners need to re-adjust to the new potential reality that every 4 years there can be a run on guns & ammo. (And eventually one of these times, it might be the govt actually pulling off what we all fear)

I happen to believe that there is more than panic buying going on, but of course cant know other than what I read.

As part of our protection of all our rights, including the 2nd amendment. We need to plan to ensure our rights, against panic mobs as well as governmental interfierance. HOW? when this ends, and I think it will. Look back on this and ask yourselves if you whan to be waiting at walmart at 2:00am to be able to exercise your most fundimental right.....

Stack it deep, stack it safe, but stack it.

Oklacoyotekiller
March 25, 2013, 12:40 AM
I have to agree with you john. A quick search on gun broker and there are people on there with thousands of rounds of 22lr. Saw several with many different auctions some totaling over 10,000 rnds. All going for horribly high prices.

Takem406
March 25, 2013, 01:21 AM
this guy has some interesting points. If we all stop buying ammo for a month will prices go down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVqZ_--0Cs

Prices never went up... Where I live... And I can find any caliber except 22 Lr... Of course 223 is a hard find as well...One store might be put but just go across town and they will have cases upon cases.
I don't mean to brag, just not seeing a jump in price. I've heard the horror stories. But don't see them.
Give up buying ammo for a month? That will be the day! I buy what I need to go to the range. I buy a little extra defense ammo for my 40's. And load enough 22-250 for prairie dogs.
I can see stocking up if your a competitive shooter and you need to supply your season. Or buying a a small stash of defense ammo. But buying a million rounds just and not even shooting any of it? Or trying to sell it for double the price? Then turning around and complaining about not finding ammo... Your a special kind of special!

I think things are getting better. Actually saw an AR last week for a normal price.

I'm just glad the economy is thriving due to the firearms industry!

In God and Glock we Trust

Oklacoyotekiller
March 25, 2013, 01:30 AM
Yeah. I probly got enough 22-250 and load supplies to last me quite awhile. Wish i had more 22lr but got nuff to last awhile.

RP88
March 25, 2013, 01:33 AM
there is plenty of ammo around me. The problem is it's priced so high that it won't actually move. All the cheaper shooting stuff is gone. Hollowpoints and Hornady is everywhere though.

Tons of ARs, too - albeit at $1400 for a Bushmaster and 1200 for a DPMS -__-

Hopefully it will come down once the AWB2013 bill dies - like it is speculated.

FROGO207
March 25, 2013, 07:11 AM
I have not purchased any finished ammo for at least 2 years. I only purchased a few lead bullets now and again. I learned from past problems how to act. Just happy I had the cash to do it.:scrutiny:

OilyPablo
March 25, 2013, 08:26 AM
It might help temporarily, but the supply chain itself will be no better in 30 days, and no one will abide but such a "boycott" any way.

Same thread, different title:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8831033

I wrote:

Better? A tiny amount maybe.

There has been a fairly rapid fundamental change in many gun owner's purchasing and storing norms . A change that may not just go away. This change as I see it is an increase in the amount of ammo people buy and keep as a minimum. The person who used to buy a box or two, now may buy 500 rounds, or even a case. The person who used to store 1000 rounds, may now (desire to) store 3000-5000 rounds. And so on, which I believe is really driving the market.

The manufacturers who are not adding square feet and equipment because they think this is just a temporary spike may have data or a better idea. I'm certainly not some guru or insider. I just say many of the ammo companies must be missing out, or say something like: "Well we buy our bullets and there aren't any....". To this I ask "What is the limit on the bullet manufacturing?" and down the supplier chain it goes. (yes I know .22LR factories make their own bullets)

Bottom line: The supply and distribution of pistol and rifle ammunition in the USA is terrible. We really shouldn't reward them by paying higher prices for the under performance in supply, but that's what we are stuck with. The better companies might actually be doing something about the situation rather than just slapping an apology on their website.

jrdolall
March 25, 2013, 08:28 AM
I have found ammo plenty of times in the past three months including at Walmart though that is rare. I go to Walmart twice per week virtually every week and the shelvex are bare other than basic hunting rounds. I visit several LGS/pawn shops every week and they all have ammo in stock albeit at inflated prices. People are buying most of it. .223 and .22 LR seem to be the hardest to find with 9mm being next.
I found .22 Mag online this week at Grafs.
I found .223 online this week at Cabela's.
I found 9mm online this week at Cabela's.
All of these were at affordable prices though maybe not pre-panic prices and all were compliments of Gunbot.
I have not found any cheap .22 since December.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
March 25, 2013, 12:46 PM
I haven't bought ammo since late November or early December.

pockets
March 25, 2013, 02:06 PM
Okay, I will not buy any ammo in the next month.
Actually......I haven't bought any ammo in at least 3 years.
Prior to the 2008-2009 panic, I had stocked up on a lot of types. Then, after the 2008-2009 panic, I restocked....then overstocked when boxes went on sale.
I figured on a few things happening; (1) the cost of materials for ammo and the finished product itself just gets higher, (2) fear induced panic will probably now occur every 4 years regardless of who is in office, and (3) ammo isn't crate of bananas...it'll remain quite shoot-able for the number of years I have left on this Earth.
.

Certaindeaf
March 25, 2013, 02:08 PM
But if I don't buy it from walmart and resell it for four times what I paid for it, how will the needy get their ammo?












































just kidding!

Oklacoyotekiller
March 25, 2013, 03:10 PM
Wal mart in chandler,ok has 6 bxs wwb 45 on shelf

Killian
March 25, 2013, 08:15 PM
At the Wal-Mart nearest my house, they freely tell the customers what time the restocking truck deliveries arrive, and the ammo shelves, within an hour or so of the predicted time, are stocked with whatever the list said was going to arrive. That's part of how it came about that there is a small but dedicated group of folks camping out for 3 hrs or more waiting for the truck to come in and for the shelves to be stocked.You might want to reread the thread.

First of all, to be perfectly accurate, I didn't say they were doing it every day, I said that they were camping out "waiting for each ammunition shipment that comes in." The shipments don't come in every day, so they don't camp out every day.

Second, other members have said that in their area, people are camping out on a regular basis, and we have one member who claims to have camped out daily at a local store for ammo purchases since January.

It certainly appears that there are adequate second and first person reports to strongly support the claim that the shortage is being maintained by a relatively small number of buyers.Well, yes, of course the normal demand is still there on top of the panic buyers, but the normal demand isn't what is the problem. It obviously isn't enough to cause the shortage, and while it will slow the recovery, it also clearly doesn't make sense to posit that normal demand will keep the shortage from ending.Again, I think you need to read what I've actually said. I didn't claim that these were ammo flippers in my initial post, and in my second post on this thread, I made this comment.

"I think it's very likely that at least some of them are buying to resell, but I don't think it's a given that all of them are. "

It really doesn't matter, from a practical perspective, what they're doing with the ammunition, the bottom line is that they're keeping the Wal-Mart shelves bare and that's keeping the shortage alive in the minds of the millions of people in the U.S. who use Wal-Mart as their primary retailer.Well, that was true a month or so ago, but now it's progressed further than that. It's hard to find anything in 9mm, and when you can, even if you want to purchase expensive stuff, you're likely have to take what's available. That often means only one loading in one brand, rather than being able to select options like bullet weight and manufacturer as would normally be the case.Whether they know or not, they don't have the option of expanding ammunition to completely meet large short term demand spikes. That would involve expansion and the purchase of additional machinery. Then when the demand spike was over, they would end up with unused floor space and millions of dollars of machinery sitting unused. It would bankrupt them.


You are correct. I meant "boxes" not "cases" of ammuntion. I saw this two days ago in the Tupelo Walmart. I got curious to see the waiting hordes of people set to swoop down so I loaded up and went. They had ammo. Some .22 Magnum. Federal 9mm. Even saw some .45ACP and .40S&W. Did I see hoards of guys standing around buying ammo? No, I saw a man and woman--presumably his wife--buying some 9mm Federal 100 round boxes. No one else was around. I went over, looked in the ammo display and they didn't have anything I wanted. There was a guy there who was unloading boxes of .22 Magnum Winchesters behind his sales desk. Looked to be about 3 cases of it. There were other cases of ammunition there but I do not know what they were. As I say, I saw boxes of .45ACP and .40 caliber on the shelves. I think it would easily have reached 200 boxes of differing calibers behind his desk though. Those boxes may very well have been stored in the back gun room until this fellow dragged them out that morning for shelving. What I did not see were people lined up ten thick waiting to buy those boxes of .45 and .40.

Why did I not see that? Because at the Walmarts around here they do not "freely tell" anyone when the stocking truck is going to arrive...because they usually do not know what is on the truck until perhaps the day before. Your Walmart may have more people working in sporting goods who would take the time to print out this report, tape it on an announcement board or in some other way inform the public. It doesn't happen that way here.

Because it doesn't happen like that here, the small cadre of people buying up all the ammo (as you have said) will have to investigate the issue of whether Walmart has ammo every day. They can do this by 1)having a relative or other inside source working at Walmart who can tell them that ammo has arrived, or 2) by loading up and going down to the store to look. To do this efficiently would mean you would would have to go every day to Walmart so that you would not "miss out". So if you are willing to waste gas every day driving to Walmart at 7 AM in order to find out if they might or might not have ammo...more power to ya. The profit margin on "flipping" this ammo and reselling it at a higher price might not be profitable at all after you subtract out gas expense.

Your premise that the SHORTAGE is being maintained by a small number of people is centered around Walmart availability of ammo. You're wrong in assuming that a small number of people are doing this. The truth is that HUGE numbers of people are keeping ammo out of general circulation. They did it by backordering ammunition in gigantic quantities. They've paid for that ammo months ago. The companies that provide that ammo have got to give this ammo to the people who have already paid for it. This process is keeping ammunition from general distribution to Walmart and others because the ammunition produced is being sent to people who already paid for it. The pitifully few boxes that are then doled out to Walmart technically should not be going to Walmart at all. Some guy who ordered ammo on backorder is probably not getting his because the vendors are electing to divert some to Walmart, because Walmart is a huge customer and you have to give them something to keep them happy. If this ammo was not going to Walmart, it would still not be used to increase a surplus because it would instead be shipped to people who were waiting on their backorders to be filled.

So the premise that "small numbers" buying from Walmart are creating a shortage is flat wrong. Huge numbers of people are buying ammo. Most of them not at Walmart but online or directly from the companies. The pitifully few boxes coming to Walmart, even if they were not being instantly bought up by customers who have not backordered (which of course, they are being bought up) would have little or no impact on the availability of ammo..Until Backorders Are Caught Up. So the people at Walmart are NOT to blame for a shortage. ALL OF US are responsible for a shortage. Anyone of us who has bought ammo or seeks to do so.

But don't kid yourself or try to blame one group over another for causing this mess, it's in the pipeline already. Until backorders are filled, there's going to be a shortage. Get use to it.

blarby
March 25, 2013, 10:13 PM
Month ?

Pfft, I havn't bought any in far longer than that.

I bought some 22- but it was for a friend who was goin nutty- not myself.

Except that box of steel .308 to see if my wifes VEPR would kill even those cases without a buffer.

It did, FWIW.

barnbwt
March 25, 2013, 11:20 PM
Wow. I just hope ya'll exert this kind of energy on your legislators. 2 hours before the doors open and whatnot :rolleyes:. Instead of wasting your time in line waiting for something that will eventually come available, donate the amount you could have earned in wages to the NRA, and then spend the remainder of that downtime hassling your reps. That's how we deal with the problem, instead of avoiding it.

My strategy (apparently :o) was to get guns in all sorts of calibers so there's always something available for me to stock up on (8x56R and 7.5 Swiss, presently). Oh, and I'll stop buying ammo as soon as you do...;)

TCB

jrdolall
March 25, 2013, 11:29 PM
If you can find an AK-74 you can buy ammo for it at pre-panic prices. I have to make myself NOT buy anymore when I see all the assinine prices people are paying for .223 and 7.62x39 and my little '74 has enough to last through 2 more Democratic presidents.

Ignition Override
March 26, 2013, 12:49 AM
jrdolall: That's a good plan.
Maybe no future tragic events will cause our DC Politburo to place large tariffs on imported ammo.

Their friends in the Kremlin would probably call the White House to stop tariffs or import bans.

JohnKSa
March 26, 2013, 12:52 AM
Your premise that the SHORTAGE is being maintained by a small number of people is centered around Walmart availability of ammo.To be accurate, what I really said was that there is a "small but highly motivated group of people" who are keeping the shortage going. I used the Wal-Mart example to back up the claim, but obviously it takes more than just empty shelves at Wal-Mart to keep the shortage alive.The truth is that HUGE numbers of people are keeping ammo out of general circulation.Well, I'd be interested to see any information you have on the number of people who are keeping ammo out of general circulation.

It's certainly possible that "HUGE numbers" are involved, but in my area it's not requiring huge numbers too keep the retailer shelves empty. It's only taking a handful of folks.This process is keeping ammunition from general distribution to Walmart and others because the ammunition produced is being sent to people who already paid for it.As far as I can tell, Wal-Mart is still getting reasonable amounts of ammunition--and that's what's being reported by other posters about their local Wal-Marts. The problem is less what they are (or aren't getting) and more that because the shelves have been cleaned by increased demand, it's now much easier for a relatively small number of buyers to KEEP them empty.

I'm not going to quote any more of your post because it seems you're either not understanding my point or you're intentionally avoiding it.

The example I gave at Wal-Mart illustrates how it's possible for a small number of people to maintain the shortage once it has been firmly established. I'm not trying to claim that the shortage is exclusively about what's happening at Wal-Mart, nor am I trying to kid anyone or blame anyone.

What I am saying is that now that the shortage is in full swing, it doesn't take NEARLY as much demand to keep it going as it did to bring it on. That's because in order to establish the shortage, existing stocks at manufacturers, retailers and distributors had to be exhausted and the supply chain had to be emptied. That took some doing. But now that all of that has been accomplished, the shortage can be maintained with far less demand.

In other words, it definitely took more than a handful of people to clean the shelves at the local Wal-Mart, but it's only taking a handful of them to keep the shelves empty now.

And that means that until those folks stop keeping the shelves clean, they will stay clean, even if you and I and a bunch of our friends stop buying ammunition for a month--which is what this thread is about.

helitack32f1
March 26, 2013, 01:04 AM
1. There are more like 150,000 federal LEOs who would be the recipients of this ammunition in the form of training and issue ammunition.
2. The contract is not a single year contract, it is a 4-5 year contract.
3. The contract is not an actual order, it is an option contract. That is, it gives the DHS to right to purchase UP TO the stated amount over 4-5 years.

Even if you assume the full 1.6Billion is purchased (even though that's only the top limit amount), it still only works out to about 2100 rounds per federal agent per year. It's not at all an unreasonable amount given their requirements.That's not correct. It's not the primary reason, nor is the procurement evidence of conspiracy, but clearly the government, both military and LE use a lot of ammunition. That usage contributes to the overall demand level, and clearly plays a part in the current situation.

I think your numbers are a bit off. Here is a quote from a member of congress that puts the number of armed officers at between 65,000 and 70,000.


"If you take the number of agencies that will be using this ammunition – CBP, Citizenship and Immigration Services, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), ICE, the U.S. Secret Service, Transportation Security Administration, the DHS police force, and all the guards that protect the various buildings these agencies are housed in, and spread that out over 5 years, you start to see that 450 million rounds really isn’t that large of an order. Especially considering it is used for training purposes like firing range and live fire exercises, on-the-job use (though that is very limited), and to shore up their supplies. In fact, there are 65,000 – 70,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS who would be covered under this IDIQ ammunition contract. If DHS were to purchase all 450 million rounds over 5 years, then that would equate to only about 1,384 rounds of ammo per year per law enforcement personnel (or about 155 rounds per month (about 10 magazines worth of ammo per month) or 3-4 rounds per day) assuming the lower estimate of only 65,000 law enforcement personnel at DHS. Considering those agents go through training exercises several times per year, that is not a lot of ammunition."

http://westmoreland.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=642&Itemid=372

What is really interesting is that this letter was written in response to people upset and questioning the DHS stating their desire to acquire 450 million rounds of ammo in 2012. Now, the number is 1.6 billion. This brings the number of rounds per agent to just under 5,000 per year assuming one big buy of 1.6 billion rounds, or, assuming 15 round magazines, that equals around 27 magazines per month. I have a hard time believing that very many of the agents actually train that month, and my feeling on that is based on info from my neighbor, who is a firearms training officer with one of the DHS agencies.

So, is the 1.6 billion on top of the 450 million from last year, for a total of 2.05 billion rounds? If so, that changes the numbers even more.

Regardless of whether or not it is all bought at one time or not, I suspect that ammo company out-put to civilians will be affected by the prospect of coming up with the 1.6 billion rounds, whether it is at once or spread out over 5 years.


As for the idea of not buying ammo for a month, the idea is ridiculous. All it would do is ensure a buying frenzy a month from now and another ammo shortage.

Killian
March 26, 2013, 06:46 AM
It's certainly possible that "HUGE numbers" are involved, but in my area it's not requiring huge numbers too keep the retailer shelves empty. It's only taking a handful of folks.As far as I can tell, Wal-Mart is still getting reasonable amounts of ammunition--and that's what's being reported by other posters about their local Wal-Marts. The problem is less what they are (or aren't getting) and more that because the shelves have been cleaned by increased demand, it's now much easier for a relatively small number of buyers to KEEP them empty.

I'm not going to quote any more of your post because it seems you're either not understanding my point or you're intentionally avoiding it.

In other words, it definitely took more than a handful of people to clean the shelves at the local Wal-Mart, but it's only taking a handful of them to keep the shelves empty now.

And that means that until those folks stop keeping the shelves clean, they will stay clean, even if you and I and a bunch of our friends stop buying ammunition for a month--which is what this thread is about.

Considering that most of my post invalidates your arguments and points out the true cause of what is presently occurring, I'd be surprised if you did repeat my points of argument.

As to your point, I think I understood it just fine. I don't think it's factual. That's all.

I'll repeat my point again since you seem to have missed it also. A small number of people are NOT keeping Walmart shelves out of stock. In December thousands, if not millions, of people ordered ammunition from various vendors around the Internet and the United States. In amounts far vaster than has been seen before. Perhaps this also coincided with an increased govt purchase of ammunition as well. This increase in demand has been so large that it has led to middle men vendors of ammunition refusing any more backorders because the already existing demand is occupying all current production to fill it. Thus you see vendors saying "no longer accepting back orders".

Ammo companies are playing "catch up" right now to get all the ammo that was ordered in December supplied to the people who bought it. This process, according to the estimated times of deliveries supplied by middle men sellers at various firearms accessory dealers (pick your favorite one) may be months, or the latter part of this year, according to information supplied on their various websites, before they receive the ammo they have ordered to be shipped to their customers. This is what their supplier (Federal, Remington, CCI..whoever) is telling them and they are putting this on their website.

So there are millions of people buying ammunition right now through the back order process. The ammunition that they have already paid for is currently being produced and shipped to them. This sudden massive demand is what is causing a shortage.

People buying ammunition at Walmart are not the problem. They are not "maintaining a shortage". If everyone stopped buying ammunition at Walmart today, there would be ammunition on the shelves at Walmart. This would not mean that all demand and supply had been met. This demand will not be met until all back orders are filled. The people buying ammo at Walmart are the people who did not order thru the online internet ammunition sites. Their demand has only marginally--minimally--been satisfied by the meager supply of ammunition dribbling into Walmart from ammunition makers. There are millions of Americans each buying 100's if not 1000's of rounds of ammunition now. It's a log jam. Same is if hurricane preppers rushed to a store all at once before a hurricane and bought batteries, milk, and generators. If there are 100 generators, then the 101st customer does not get one. Let's say the store uses its retail reputation and secures 5 additional generators for this store by twisting the arms of their generator suppliers for an emergency shipment even if the generator company does not have a surplus stock and can only produce a few per day. Can you then say that the 101st person is now creating the shortage by buying one of those 5 generators? No. The hurricane inspired demand is creating the shortage. The perception of need for a generator in the face of a hurricane is the causative agent.
(I chose generators as an example because in the aftermath of a hurricane they may also represent a dubious "need". Do people NEED generators after a hurricane? Debatable...in much the same way that "do people NEED ammo?" is debatable. Is the house that contained the generator even going to be left standing? Was buying one "wasted"? [Comparable to buying ammo you hoard but never shoot.]How effective is a generator in a place with no gasoline or available oil? How long would it last at persevering food even in the best of situation? Applied to firearms, how often does someone NEED a gun? How much ammo is "enough"?)

And because I no longer trust people to make the obvious leap and substitute ammunition for generators, I'll spell this out too. If Walmart had 500 boxes of ammunition at their local store, and suddenly everyone in the United States (unlike hurricane demand, which is local in scope) demands ammo and locals buys those 500 boxes, can you now blame people who come in after to purchase the meager 5 boxes that come in? People who missed the boat when the 500 were bought up in the initial rush? I say, "No."

Why you are propagating this premise of "a few are the problem" is another point I'm curious about. If your goal is to try and convince people that no shortage exists...that's wrong. It exists until backorders are filled. Or you convince people to cancel their backorders. If your goal is just to convince people not to buy at Walmart so that YOU will be able to find ammo the next time you go in, then good luck with that. Cause I do not believe that is going to happen until the perceived need is met, either thru reduced demand or by ammo companies increasing production. If you want to stop the shortage, then focus on convincing people to cancel their backorders. Blaming people who didn't get there first to buy their "generator" is divisive, and I feel factually incorrect to the situation at hand.

We are all to blame, and none of us are to blame, for the current situation. This is the stampede. You either run with the herd, or you get crushed by its passage. Or you find an island, or make one for yourself--but that's less dramatic as imagery.

So good luck, cause in my opinion we are still looking at months if not sometime next year before we see those nice packed Walmart shelves again.

bannockburn
March 26, 2013, 07:36 AM
The last time I bought any ammo was last November and it was, believe it or not, .22LR that was on sale. No problem here with me not buying any ammo for a month, or two, or three...

So please just let me know when the ammo starts showing up in the stores so I can start buying again.

Robert
March 26, 2013, 08:32 AM
This has wandered away from the op. Add in just a bit too much tin foil for my taste and we are done.

The last ammo I bought was last summer for my 375H&H and only because it was brand new and I had not set up to reload for it yet.

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