SWAT team kicks down wrong door again...


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trooper
March 14, 2004, 08:26 AM
http://www.n-tv.de/5222746.html

Tuesday, March 9th, 2004

Raid against biker gang
SWAT team searches wrong house.

Munich police officers forcibly entered the home of a law-abiding family during a raid against the motorcycle gang "Bandidos" because they took the wrong door.

Three to six armed SWAT officers had entered the family's home in Gammelsdorf near Munich on Monday morning, a police spokesman confirmed on Tuesday. He claimed that there were no roadsigns in the small village and the numbers were hard to read.

According to the report, the parents had just gotten up when they were subdued by officers with submachine guns. The 10 and 15 year-old daughters were still sleeping at that time.

The error was noticed within a couple minutes. "We soon learned that we had assaulted the wrong structure when we saw the inhabitants," the spokesman said.

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GunWares
March 14, 2004, 09:36 AM
The error was noticed within a couple minutes. "We soon learned that we had assaulted the wrong structure when we saw the inhabitants," the spokesman said.

"George is my friend. I like George."

Mark Tyson
March 14, 2004, 09:59 AM
They have the Bandidos in Germany, too?

trooper
March 14, 2004, 10:19 AM
Bandidos, Hell's Angels and a couple smaller gangs. The latter tend to disappear, though...

Bandidos and Angels are regarded as criminal organizations over here and account for a large percentage of drug trafficking and prostitution in Europe. Some of their local chapters have been outlawed.

There have been some interesting cases up in Scandinavia a couple years ago when members of those two groups decided to duke it out in broad daylight in public with all kinds of military hardware up to RPG's.


Regards,

Trooper

Samurai Penguin
March 14, 2004, 10:29 AM
Yes they do...the Bandidos, Hell's Angels and many other MC are international organizations.

I kinda like how the German SWAT teams think: Hmmm. We were looking for a bunch of greasy, tattooed, meth-snorting, beer-swilling bikers. Yet all we've seen here are a couple and their two daughters. Looks like we have the wrong house.

Now, an American SWAT team would probably have hauled them downtown and spent hours grilling the entire family: Who tipped you we were coming? Where'd you hide the drugs and motorcycles? Confess, and we'll go easy on you. Oh, don't know anything, eh? Bend over, sir, we'll be searching more thoroughly for contraband... ;)

(Just yanking peoples' chains a bit...for the most part) :evil:

Kentucky Rifle
March 14, 2004, 10:33 AM
The SWAT Team kicking in my door accidentally has been something I've thought about a lot. In the day time, when I'm fully awake, I would naturally lay face down on the floor until they had determined that they had hit the wrong house. However, if it happened at night, I would end up dead. Out of what I call "sleep", I would roll out of bed and put 26 rounds of 5.56 into their "little crowd" as the PTSD made me hear the rocks in cans and hear the piercing scream--"They're in the wires"! "I would be back". I would also see what I just described. The remaining people of the SWAT Team would kill me.

Anyone else have a wounded mind who will admit it?

KR

trooper
March 14, 2004, 10:39 AM
Penguin -

I dunno... when I was in Border Police College we learned that you try to gather as much information as possible before you carry out a raid.

And busting a house with known violent, possibly armed suspects inside without doing some covert reconnaissance before strikes me as pretty careless and irresponsible.

I won't talk about the officers' reading abilities...



Regards.

Trooper

Pilgrim
March 14, 2004, 11:03 AM
"Is this the place?"

"I don't know."

"I thought you have been here before."

"Not me, that was Fred."

"Where's Fred?"

"He called in sick."

"What's the address on the warrant?"

"I don't know. I didn't read it. Didn't you read it?"

"No. Anyone here read the warrant?"

"Does anyone here have the warrant?"

"Let's try this place. Maybe we will get lucky."

TheFederalistWeasel
March 14, 2004, 11:13 AM
In other news…

God only knows how many other Search Warrants were correctly and successfully served on that day, with out incident or injury.

A lot of folks here will maintain, against the gun grabbers when a shooting takes place that 80 million gun owners killed no one on that same day. The same can be said of all the other cops in the world in regards to a SWAT Team or any unit taking down the wrong house.

I am slowly but surely getting fed up with all the anti-authoritarians and anti-cops types here.

We have a tough job to do if you don’t like we the way we do it then get off your collective butts and join the force and do it yourselves!!!

Just how many search warrants have you served in your life times?

Just how many person(s) with a gun calls have you answered in your lifetimes?

Just how many times have you done a felony traffic stop?

Just how many times have you been shot at or attacked with a knife?

Just how many times have you walked into a mad crowd attempting to bring resolve and calm?

A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brother and sisters and I.


:banghead: :banghead: :fire:

pax
March 14, 2004, 11:55 AM
FederalistWeasel,

While I'm not exactly insensitive to the "walk a mile in my shoes" plea above, I have to point out it cuts both ways. If you as a LEO think we non-LEOs should walk in your shoes, I humbly suggest you should walk in ours as well. Think how these things look from our side of the bullhorns.

If you're on a SWAT team that raids the wrong house, it can mess up your whole day.

If you're in a house that is wrongly raided by a SWAT team, it can mess up your whole life -- what's left of it, anyway.

These incidents alarm and frighten so many of us who are armed simply because we can well imagine the terrible consequences should a SWAT team wrongfully enter our homes. KR points out that he would come out of sleep slinging lead in a vivid flashback. I picture the split second choice -- shoot or surrender? Given the increasing number of home invasions by true BGs mimicking SWAT tactics, it is not an easy choice. Do I want to die swiftly by gunfire (shot at the good guys, oops) or slowly by torture (didn't shoot at the BGs, oops)? Could I live with myself if I wrongfully shot a cop? Would I live at all if I surrendered to a BG imitating a cop? And whyinhell should I have to choose either?

If the cops' tactics are so frightful that BGs want to copy them, perhaps the tactics are not as benign as my cop friends want to think.

Face it: knocking people's doors over in the dead of night is a horrific business. Knocking the wrong people's doors over is even more horrific. It is hardly surprising that people would be horrified by it.

pax

A policeman's job is only easy in a police state. -- Orson Welles

TechBrute
March 14, 2004, 12:20 PM
In other news…

God only knows how many other Search Warrants were correctly and successfully served on that day, with out incident or injury.

A lot of folks here will maintain, against the gun grabbers when a shooting takes place that 80 million gun owners killed no one on that same day. The same can be said of all the other cops in the world in regards to a SWAT Team or any unit taking down the wrong house.

I am slowly but surely getting fed up with all the anti-authoritarians and anti-cops types here.

We have a tough job to do if you don’t like we the way we do it then get off your collective butts and join the force and do it yourselves!!!

Just how many search warrants have you served in your life times?

Just how many person(s) with a gun calls have you answered in your lifetimes?

Just how many times have you done a felony traffic stop?

Just how many times have you been shot at or attacked with a knife?

Just how many times have you walked into a mad crowd attempting to bring resolve and calm?

A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brother and sisters and I.

We shouldn't have to walk a mile in your shoes to expect you to do your job properly, and let's see how understanding you are when they kick your door in accidentally and shoot your dog. Or OC your wife. Or throw your daughter to the ground because she's too scared to comply.

This kind of inexcusable bungling is not limited to para-military SWAT Teams. The local Grand Prairie Police arrested a lady (Ms "Smith")that goes to my church for check fraud. Now the only reason that they thought that Ms Smith was the check writer was that her address was the one printed on the checks (who would print their real address on forged checks, anyway?). The police came to her house, asked her if she wrote the checks. Naturally, she said no. They decided not to believe her, even though they really had no reason to believe that she did it, so they arrested her. She is a widowed mother of 4 and the police drug her off in handcuffs and left the kids (ages 2, 3, 5 and 8) in the house by themselves. The LEOs were nice enough to let her use the phone after 1.5 hours of questioning to call the church so that her sister could go to the house and care for the kids, who had been alone for over 2 hours by now, and were obviously distraught.

In this case, the city of Grand Prairie decided that this particular bungle was worth $25k, the award in the wrongful arrest suit. I'm sure your first reaction is disbelief that the city didn't stand behind the errant cops. Well, they did. The 2 officers recieved 1 week mandatory vacation... errr... paid administrative leave. Hmmm... I wonder why the "Smith" family isn't pro-cop... Hmmm... probably didn't do much for the attitudes of the church, her neighbors, her friends...

If you want a public servant job where people will like you and you can make a positive difference, be a fireman. Better yet, work for the Y, Salvation Army, or Red Cross. Of course you won't be able to carry a gun along with your superiority complex.:D

J Miller
March 14, 2004, 12:21 PM
FederalistWeasel and other LEO's,

When LEO's make a mistake involving law abiding citizens, the citizens will suffer severe tramatic emotional injuries at the least. Many times they are physically injured, or killed.

LEO's will then say; Oh sorry we made a mistake, and 99 times out of a hundred they go home to their families and are exonerated by the departments.

What recourse do we private citizens have against your militaristic might and attitudes? NONE.
If we survive your invasive and destructive attacks and home invasions we can't have you arrested, your immune to that.
Your are "acting in good faith" is what I've heard said way to many times.

If we stand up for ourselves we will most likely be killed, if not we will be arrested. Then we suffer criminal charges and will most likely be convicted of non existant crimes end up in prison because of YOUR mistakes.

We law abiding citizens are in a NO WIN situation when you LEO's make mistakes.
No mater what WE do, WE LOSE.

Pax worded it much better than I can, but I have absolutly NO sympathy for LEO's in general. LEO's in general have lost contact with the people they are supposed to protect. To many have the "If your not one of us, your a criminal" attitude.
LEO's in general have WAY to much power, and that gives them an arrogent attitude that citizens are trash to be shoved around as they please.

If you don't like us voicing our wories and fears about the mistakes LEOs make, then don't read these threads.

J:fire: e

4v50 Gary
March 14, 2004, 12:29 PM
and our legal standards should not be applied to them.

However, something is wrong in Grand Prarie. It's one thing to arrest a person at their home (and no where does it state that a SWAT team was involved), but quite another to leave itty bitty kiddies alone unsupervised by an adult. Whether the arrest was good or bad, their sergeant should have blown a fuse if a relative or child protective services or some social worker wasn't called to look after them. Grand Prarie was lucky to get off with only $25k.

Andrew Rothman
March 14, 2004, 12:36 PM
TFW:

With great power comes great responsibility.

When you're breaking down doors, "...(T)here were no roadsigns in the small village and the numbers were hard to read." is not an adequate excuse.

This was, by any measure, an indefensible f-up, and should result in severe consequences against officers who found the signs so hard to read that they figured, what the heck, let's just try this house!

I would save your defense of your fellow lawmen for more, well, defensible actions.

TechBrute
March 14, 2004, 12:46 PM
Grand Prarie was lucky to get off with only $25k. I agree. She did not want to endure a long trial and took the first settlement offer from the city.

trooper
March 14, 2004, 12:48 PM
Guys, I really didn't intend to start a cop-bashing thread. I've been a police officer myself and hopefully become one again this year.

FederalistWeasel, while I couldn't check all items on your list yet, I think I know what being a cop really means from my own experience.

But being a shooter and gun enthusiast in Germany (and thus being under the constant scrutiny of the authorities), I'm also very aware of how important it is that government agencies not only follow the law but also keep in mind that they are part of the communities themselves.

Yes, police work is hard, often dangerous and sometimes dirty, and I have great respect for my former colleagues. But some of them occasionally need to be reminded that they cannot get away with anything just because they wear a uniform and hold a badge.

And now calm down, everybody...



Regards,

Trooper

El Tejon
March 14, 2004, 12:52 PM
This happened in Germany? Wow!:eek:

When the German SQUAT team left, the house had never been so clean and organized. "Ja, who broughten zee ecktenschen corden fur der vacummcleaneren?" Hans, move der couch, mach schnell.":D

goalie
March 14, 2004, 12:56 PM
Actually, a very good case can be made that no-knock warrants should only be issued in very extreme cases, and that the fear by law enforcement that the drugs will get "flushed" is not extreme enough to meet the requirements, as the threat to the general public through common issuance of no-knock warrants in those situations is too great and is not justified. Hostage situations, for instance, would meet the criterea.

Weimadog
March 14, 2004, 01:12 PM
Kentucky Rifle, could you please explain what this means?

as the PTSD made me hear the rocks in cans and hear the piercing scream--"They're in the wires"! "I would be back". I would also see what I just described. The remaining people of the SWAT Team would kill me.

I can't make any sense of it.

PATH
March 14, 2004, 01:18 PM
Are there bad LEO's? Yes. The majority of LEO's that I have met are pretty decent folks doing a crap job. Are mistakes made? Yes there are. How many are there in relation to the number of warrants they take action on?

No one here likes to see gun owners all painted as toothless yahoos when one of our number does something incredibly stupid. Why do we want to paint law enforcement officers with a broad brush?

I believe more training and a thorough investigation of what happened is warranted. Corrective measures should be taken where needed. Bashing LEO"S, many of whom are on our side, is counterproductive. Yes, there are jack booted types but your average joe or jane does not wake up in the morning with thoughts of making you miserable.

As for officers leaving kids unsupervised, well, that shows a lack of gray matter. Yes, there are LEO's who are idiots. Every job description has a few idiots filling its ranks. Why would LEO's be any different.

Folks, we need to stand together and address specific LEO's and specific incidents! Would anyone here think that Lawdog is a jackbooted thug? Hell NO!!! Let us remain civil and not attack friends. Yes, we have a great many friends in the LEO community. They are our family and friends! We live in the same community.

As a proud THR member I support our LE community. Remember that a large number of members here are LEO's! A house divided against itself cannot long stand.

Please gang let us tone down the rhetoric and deal with individuals and not paint with a broad brush!

trooper
March 14, 2004, 01:19 PM
El Tejon,

it seems that nowadays people are kinda quick to call SWAT, give them minimal informations and send them in to sort things out.

I posted another SWAT incident here (http://http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54107&perpage=25&pagenumber=1).

Note that both things happened in Bavaria...


Trooper

Cal4D4
March 14, 2004, 02:07 PM
For Weimadog...

I have had a bunch of friends about 5 years older than me that chose or were chosen to journey to a distant land about 35 years ago and implement some policy decisions. A few of them still are said to wake up screaming in the middle of the night in a cold sweat with bad dreams, sometimes feeling like they were fighting for their lives AGAIN. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

HTH

El Tejon
March 14, 2004, 02:15 PM
trooper, wow, both incidents are so contrary to the German nature that I find it hard to believe. Herr Murphy gets around!:D

trooper
March 14, 2004, 02:52 PM
Hmm... how's that?

El Tejon
March 14, 2004, 03:05 PM
No having things in order.:uhoh:

Chris Rhines
March 14, 2004, 03:28 PM
You know, just once I would like to see a career LEO respond to one of these threads with, "You know, *bleep*-ups like this are making me and my co-workers look bad, not to mention making my job harder and driving a wedge between me and the citizens I'm sworn to protect. I hope those dimwits see the inside of a jail cell." Instead of the usual 'circle-the-wagons', hard-put-upon cop pathos. :rolleyes:

- Chris

pax
March 14, 2004, 03:45 PM
This incident happened in Germany, and how many have happened here?

Path ~

I wasn't complaining about LEOs in general. I have had nothing but good experiences with the people in law enforcement (a few well-deserved tickets here and there, that's it).

With a few notable exceptions, the problem isn't the people wearing the uniform.

The problem is with a very, very evil and problematic policy that is becoming more and more widespread -- that of sending LEOs to knock people's doors over in the middle of the night.

My LEO friends seem to think that the severity of the problem or problems they are combating (drugs, usually) justifies this terrible policy.

I tell you, it does not. I tell you, it puts officers in danger in much the same way that gun control puts individuals in danger. On the surface, it looks safer. This house, or that raid, resulted in no officer casualties and produced X number of arrests and convictions. Great! Now tell me; what effect did that raid have on the community good will LEOs must have in order to do their jobs safely and well? Was it eroded? Were there people highly supportive of the LEOs before, who are now ambivalent or worse? What long term effect will that shift have on officer safety?

Even if this awful policy did in fact make officers safer, it does not necessarily follow that it is a good thing. From this side of the thin blue line, it is a bad thing. It puts citizens in danger. You know, the folks LEOs are sworn to protect. Surely that ought to bother the sheep-dog instincts of a good cop. And when no knocks first started becoming common, I'm sure it did. But after awhile, well, you know, the guys get hardened to the job. Get in, point the guns, yell the orders, slam people to the floor for noncompliance. Don't worry about it too much, let it all get sorted out in court. Most the time they are only knocking over bad people's doors anyway, so it's all okay.

And then my LEO friends come online, and can't figure out where the "Us vs. Them" attitude come from!

This is astonishing to me. As society's sheep-dogs, LEOs shouldn't be complacent about tearing up a sheep -- even if often it turns out there was a wolf under that sheep's clothing, it should still positively horrify them if they ever even once tear up a sheep in sheep's clothing. But somehow, the LEO culture has shifted enough that this sort of collateral damage isn't just acceptable, but defensible. Justified by the enormity of the drug problem, justified by the rising crime rate, justified by officer safety. Justified because it happened and it was a LEO that did it.

It's too bad. All the way around, it is too bad.

pax

No matter how disastrously some policy has turned out, anyone who criticizes it can expect to hear: "But what would you replace it with?" When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with? – Thomas Sowell

The Real Hawkeye
March 14, 2004, 04:01 PM
A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brothers and sisters and I.What a load! Police have no business doing things like this, period. If you have a valid warrant, then you make sure you have at least one ordinary squad car outside in full view, lights flashing, so the occupants of the home can look out the window and see that it is not a criminal raid. Next, unless you saw a desperate and armed felon run into that building, you walk up to the door in ordinary civilian police uniform, knock, and when the door is answered, you present the warrant, which better well detail the exact items to be searched for, or person to be arrested.

I would rather 100 guilty men go free than one innocent citizen be shot to death by cops. I am not afraid of bad buys, because I can handle bad guys so long as I live in a free country. I cannot handle a police state, however, nearly as easily. We have about 100 times more cops than we currently need in this country.

P.S. For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times.

trooper
March 14, 2004, 04:34 PM
El Tejon -

depends on whose order we're talking about...

German machinery usually works exactly the way it is supposed to, while German gov't agencies sometimes... um, have rather creative interpretations of the law.

Germany has a huge bureaucracy on the state and federal level that lends itself to misuse.


Regards,

Trooper

Standing Wolf
March 14, 2004, 05:30 PM
Only cops need guns.

one-shot-one
March 14, 2004, 06:12 PM
Weimadog asked ................
Kentucky Rifle, could you please explain what this means?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
as the PTSD made me hear the rocks in cans and hear the piercing scream--"They're in the wires"! "I would be back". I would also see what I just described. The remaining people of the SWAT Team would kill me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't make any sense of it.

Post Tramatic Stress Disorder made him think he was back in vietnam.
and the enemy had came into the perimater and he believes he is back in 'nam but the remaining swat members would shoot him before he could reload or flashback to present day.

Pilgrim
March 14, 2004, 07:33 PM
God only knows how many other Search Warrants were correctly and successfully served on that day, with out incident or injury.
I am slowly but surely getting fed up with all the anti-authoritarians and anti-cops types here.
A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brother and sisters and I.

Having spent twenty years as a naval officer and aviator, plus seventeen plus years as a county law enforcement officer, I feel qualified to interject here.

The reason I bring up the naval officer career is because it taught me an appreciation for working in a zero tolerance for error environment. I knew a number of fine naval officers who made one mistake, and as a result their careers were ruined, further promotions were denied, and they were forced out of the service. That doesn't seem to be the norm when police officers make a terrible mistake and an innocent person is killed. One example is the Ismael Mena killing (http://ron.dotson.net/sources/Cop%20pleads%20guilty%20in%20raid.htm) by Denver police officers. As far as I know, Officer Bini is still working for the Denver Police Department. The chief of police, who was fired, was permitted to continue working as a captain so he could maximize his retirement benefits. Mena's family had $400,000 thrown at them to make them go away.

You know, just once I would like to see a career LEO respond to one of these threads with, "You know, *bleep*-ups like this are making me and my co-workers look bad, not to mention making my job harder and driving a wedge between me and the citizens I'm sworn to protect. I hope those dimwits see the inside of a jail cell." Instead of the usual 'circle-the-wagons', hard-put-upon cop pathos.

Done!

Pilgrim

HABU
March 14, 2004, 08:06 PM
A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brother and sisters and I. Np problem. That way I am a mile away when I scoff in your general direction AND I have your shoes. :rolleyes:

Chris Rhines
March 14, 2004, 08:12 PM
Pilgrim - Thanks, I needed that! ;)

- Chris

Ky Larry
March 14, 2004, 08:14 PM
To me, the most frightening part of this thread (and many others) is some LEO's attitude that they are above the law they are sworn to uphold. When they kick in the wrong door or shoot an unarmed suspect, they believe they are not responsible for thier actions. Also,some LEO's have lost touch with the citizens they have sworn to protect and view anyone who's not a cop as "The Enemy." Weasel, I hope you are never pulled out of your car on a dark street by a cop with dead eyes and wearing sap gloves. Then you'll get to walk a mile in a citizens shoes.

PATH
March 14, 2004, 08:20 PM
PAX,

I was in no way referring to any specific post(s). I just get a little amazed at some of the vitriol aimed at LEO's sometimes.(Not by you!) The policy may be problematic when it comes to no-knocks but we address it and we elect people who address it.

There are some really great folks on this board who are LEO's and I have family and friends who are as well. I just get discouraged when there seems to be deep animosity towards LEO's displayed here. I can see it toward an individual who has wronged you but not against a whole group of people. My intent was only to point out that concern.

Here at THR the only US is the side of the good guys. The only THEM is the
bad guys.

bigjim
March 14, 2004, 09:05 PM
The bill in congress to allow Police nation wide CCW while denying it to me was the last piece in the puzzle.

The lines have been drawn. Everyone had better choose a side before the bullets start to fly. Its just a matter of time now.

F4GIB
March 14, 2004, 09:25 PM
You think the cops here are defensive? Post this thread on the CopTalk forum over at www.glockTalk.com and watch out for the fireatorm of outrage that a CIVILIAN would have the audacity to criticize one of our "boys in blue."

They'll all sing the melody "If CIVILIANS wouldn't commit crimes, these errors wouldn't happen. 'Good faith' excuses all police errors and omissions. We have no liability."

Denko
March 14, 2004, 11:32 PM
F4GIB you beat me to it.If you want to see the us vs them in all it's glory go to glock talk /cop talk.

ZekeLuvs1911
March 15, 2004, 02:05 AM
First off, let me say that I do appreciate what our LEO do for us. However, I don't condone any types of errors such as that which was mentioned above. You guys are paid to do a job and to do it correctly. If you screw the pooch, then prepare to pay the piper. Remember that you serve the public trust and not the other way around. If you don'y like it, then get the hell out of the kitchen. Thank you for your attention.

buttrap
March 15, 2004, 03:30 AM
Well in general I dont have much use for them after they stuck a 12 ga gun in my wifes face for driving a green car and got the drop on the daugher in the baby seat with another 12 bore. My wife still calls them pigs.

FedDC
March 15, 2004, 05:32 AM
Why is it that LEOs are NEVER allowed to make any mistakes? Seriously, are any of you non LEOs out there totally 100% mistake free on your jobs...you never do anything incorrectly... Fed Ex drivers that never deliver a package to the wrong house...electricians that never wire anything wrong.

Cops are people just like everyone else. We make mistakes just like everyone else. It is not bc we are power hungry JBTs or bc we want to prone out your family at gunpoint, it is bc we believe that there is an imminent threat to our safety and we do not want to die. Its just that simple. I don't want to die on the job and if that means that I offend someone by holding them at gunpoint, then so be it. I would rather they be offended than to have my family get a visit from the Chaplin.

Anyone that thinks LEOs are above the law needs to look around. LEOs are held to a much higher standard than other citizens. How many other jobs are there where you can get criminally charged for doing your job? We can and do get prosecuted and incarcerated for doing what we are charged to do... Does that happen to you? We get sued civilly for everything we have bc some crack dealer says we had his cuffs to tight and now he will never be able to live his dream of being a brain surgeon...

It is becoming more and more understandable for LEOs to be angry at the world they work in. They are cursed by the people they arrest...and then cursed by the people they protect. They are called "Pigs" by criminals and "Pigs" by non criminals...and people wonder why they only associate with other LEOs.

The tone of this thread is just sad. Cop bashing like that is pathetic.

A little info for those that think cops are above the law: http://www.leldf.org/

JPM70535
March 15, 2004, 05:34 AM
I was going to comment on what seems to be a "Cop Hater" mentality among a large percentage of THR members, and how as a retired LEO I found that highly objectionable. Then I got to thinking back over my LE years, and I realized that the resentment seems to be more strongly directed at SWAT and their tactics than at LEOsw in general, and guess what? I have to agree with them, Black fatigues, jump boots, shaved heads, and ski masks breaking down doors in the middle of ther night only to discover they have raided the wrong residence is not good Police procedure.

While I would like to think I would remain calm and obey the orders of a masked, machine gun waving individual proclaiming he was the POLICE, If I was awakened from a peaceful sleep this way I don't know that I wouldn't come up firing, with predictably disastrous results.

I know there are times when a no knock warrant is the only answer, but those times should be few and far between.

FedDC
March 15, 2004, 06:02 AM
They are Few and FAR between. This one wasn't even on this continent!

Tamara
March 15, 2004, 08:07 AM
Seriously, are any of you non LEOs out there totally 100% mistake free on your jobs...

If my job involved sticking submachineguns in people's faces, I'd probably strive a little harder in that direction.

When it comes to that aspect of the job, there IS no "Whoops! Sorry!" If you can't deal with that, you need to go get another line of work. This is one of your employers speaking: Zero Screwups Are Allowed In The Serving Of No Knock Warrants. Every time there's a wrong address, I want to see somebody fired. Every time an innocent gets shot, I want to see it charged as the criminal negligence it is.

They are Few and FAR between.

There's more than one a week performed on the wrong address in this fair land of ours. Only the ones where someone gets killed make national news, but it seems there's a one or two of those every year, too.



Oh, and, hey, go read Pilgrim's post a few times. ;)

F4GIB
March 15, 2004, 09:52 AM
Someone posted this earlier "There are some really great folks on this board who are LEO's and I have family and friends who are as well." That is correct but, alas, it is not the "rest of the story."

In my 30 years of law practice including time as a prosecutor, police civil service board member, and more time as a firefighter/paramedic, I've been around cops a lot. Most of them exhibit a Dr. Jeckle/Mr. Hyde syndrome. Off the job and even on the job with people they know, they are fine fellows. But as soon as the cruiser door slams shut many undergo a remarkable personality change. Your nice neighbor disappears and "Mr. Bad Ass in mirrored sunglasses" appears with all the character defects that the image calls up.

Amazingly, the officer doesn't even know it's happening (and will deny it vigorously). I suspect they could pass a polygraph denying an incident even though the entire thing was on videotape occuring in exactly the opposite fashion. For those moments "Mr. Bad Ass" is in charge psychologically and physically.

The Real Hawkeye
March 15, 2004, 10:06 AM
This is precisely why the Founding Fathers feared large standing armies. When government has a regular large force of paid armed employees (call them soldiers, if you like), tyranny is always the result, to one degree or another. When everyone's right to keep and bear arms was recognized, this tyranny effect was muted significantly, but as the right to keep and bear arms came to be increasingly infringed, the palpable character of tyranny increased with the increasing disparity regarding this right as between regular folks and government agents (state or federal). The tyranny effect was also muted when the federal government's armed agents were not permitted to interact with civilians in an official capacity. The FBI changed that in the 1940s. The tyranny effect was also muted by the fact that local law enforcement at one time consisted of an elected sheriff, and a small force of deputies that were your neighbors and friends. If more firepower was needed, they called on known reliable regular folks to bring their weapons and lend a hand. There was no large patrolling standing armed force of uniformed government agents everywhere you looked. Now there is. We don't refer to all the cops floating around as a standing army, but that is essentially what they are, and the Founders feared precisely that for precisely the reasons we are discussing on this thread. Human nature - and the nature of government - being what it is, this situation tends quickly to degenerate into tyranny. This is especially so when there exists a government-enforced disparity in arms between armed government agents and the rest of us "lowly" folks who can't be trusted by government with "assault weapons" and high cap magazines.

Leatherneck
March 15, 2004, 11:57 AM
The Wimmin are trying to teach you something you need to know.

Tamara hit the nail with "99% ain't acceptable in some things."
Pax is absolutely right with being appalled by the lack of remorse after an "OOPS."

Seriously, if you believe good intentions are all that's required to get by, then you need to re-examine your premises. :scrutiny:

TC
TFL Survivor

The Real Hawkeye
March 15, 2004, 01:00 PM
P.S. For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times.

c-bag
March 15, 2004, 01:26 PM
Read: No More Wacos: What's Wrong With Federal Law Enforcement and How to Fix by David B. Kopel, Paul H. Blackman

and no, this is not a "tin foil hat" book

cameroneod
March 15, 2004, 01:40 PM
Are mistakes made? Yes there are. How many are there in relation to the number of warrants they take action on?


This argument is rediculous. I have a really stressfull job. If I walk in one day and shoot everyone, no one is going to say, "Well he did a really good job most of the time. Let's let this one slide." :banghead:

12-34hom
March 15, 2004, 02:38 PM
The misnomer that surrounds police & the work they perform, is that it's all going to go according to plan.

That's like saying every Doctor is a Marcus Welby or Lawyer a Perry Mason.
It just ain't so.

Through proper training, intel, and other basic police procedures most errors can be circumvented. But not all.

The Women & Men that make up the ranks of police are not infallible, and to expect that level of performance is foolish. The amount of stress associated with police work shows up in the amount suicide, divorces, substance abuse, apathy & other job related stress factors.

The society that we interact in has a telling effect, Look at the video games some of your children play and how they glorify violence, the role models people look up to, the amount of controlled substances imported and injested by Americans so forth and so on.

Needless to say, it's not a job for everyone, but to some it's a calling.

They provide a service, not perfect by any means, but the vast majority are doing there level best. Not good enough you say.. then step up & into the front lines.

12-34hom.

cameroneod
March 15, 2004, 03:49 PM
The service doesnt have to be perfect. But at the very least I would expect a heavily armed SWAT team to show up at the right house.

fix
March 15, 2004, 04:08 PM
The state of denial that many are in here is alarming to me.

QuarterBoreGunner
March 15, 2004, 04:20 PM
The state of denial that many are in here is alarming to me. Can you elaborate on that?

cameroneod
March 15, 2004, 04:24 PM
Granted Im probably a bit critical. If I make ONE mistake, I'm dead. There is no "almost perfect." I'd expect that a SWAT team would be capable of the same amount of precision.

J Jones
March 15, 2004, 04:26 PM
The Women & Men that make up the ranks of police are not infallible, and to expect that level of performance is foolish. The amount of stress associated with police work shows up in the amount suicide, divorces, substance abuse, apathy & other job related stress factors.

QBG, I think this is what is meant by "the state of denial that many are in here is alarming to me."

We have this same trite BS about cops being overstressed and "not perfect" when all that is needed is some restraint and facts-checking 9and double checking) before bursting in to serve a warrant. If it were some kind of life or death situation, we could likely understand the stress of the moment and a mistake, but serving a warrant isn't such a scenario.

fix
March 15, 2004, 04:48 PM
Can you elaborate on that?

I'd refer you to my comments in this (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70787) thread.

That said, allow me to address a few points.

The bill in congress to allow Police nation wide CCW while denying it to me was the last piece in the puzzle.

Can't blame the cops for that. I'd support that bill in a heartbeat. I want it for everyone. I'm not willing to say that cops can't have it just because I might be excluded. Give it to them, then we'll work on the rest of us.

This is especially so when there exists a government-enforced disparity in arms between armed government agents and the rest of us "lowly" folks who can't be trusted by government with "assault weapons" and high cap magazines.

Can't blame the cops for this either. I want those same things for my own defense, so why on earth would I believe that cops shouldn't have them for their own defense...and furthermore my defense as well. I don't want the cops to be outgunned anymore than I want to be outgunned.

LEOs are held to a much higher standard than other citizens. How many other jobs are there where you can get criminally charged for doing your job?

First of all, LEOs should be held to higher standards, but in many well documented cases they are not. Second, there is no way a cop is going to be criminally charged for "doing their job." To suggest otherwise implies that cops are above the law. I will not even allow "in the course of their duties" as a substitute. I can't imagine that any department policy mandates criminal activity.

I am slowly but surely getting fed up with all the anti-authoritarians and anti-cops types here.

anti-authoritarians? You mean free men who are genuinely upset over the trampling of other's rights?

anti-cop? That dog wont hunt. Cops screaming "anti-cop" or "cop basher" anytime someone dares question a police action is starting to really annoy me. The constant use of it is doing more harm to your cause than good...particularly with me. Feel free to tell me all about the pain and misery that you endure every single day to make the streets safe for ungrateful schmucks like me...the chronic cop basher. :rolleyes:

The Real Hawkeye
March 15, 2004, 04:51 PM
The misnomer that surrounds police & the work they perform, is that it's all going to go according to plan.Yeah, but the problem is not the mistakes, it's thinking that it's ok to do "no knock," middle of the night, raids in private residences in the United States of America. This should NEVER happen here. How perfectly you perform them means nothing to me. In America, it should be assumed that EVERY TIME this happens, people are going to be killed.

You will come back and say, "Well, then the bad guys will get away." Fine. Like I said, I'd rather that 100 bad guys get away, than have this nation transformed into a tyrannical nightmare. I can deal with the bad guys. It's not nearly so easy dealing with a police state tyranny.

Samurai Penguin
March 15, 2004, 05:02 PM
I'll sound off on the "UPS driver delivering to the wrong house" bit...

There are mistakes...and then there are MISTAKES.

I am a truck driver. I deliver to grocery and convenience stores. Just today, I must have left my brain in the house, because for the first time, I had to go back to a previous delivery to bring them a whole pallet of stuff that I just plain missed. WHOOPS. Big screw-up...but still, just a "mistake."

Now, if, during the course of my day, I took a turn too wide and ended up smashing a family into street pizza...that would be a MISTAKE. And I would expect to have my butt hung out to dry for it. Even if the courts let me drive again, I don't know that I'd want to.

When a cop's "mistake" destroys innocent lives and property, and they're back on the job in a week, apparently unconcerned about it...well, that may be part of this Us-vs.-Them thing. Copy?

roo_ster
March 15, 2004, 05:39 PM
When I read about such no-knock screw ups, I want to rage and start chewing the carpet & can barely fathom that such error is regarded so casually by some in the law enforcement community.

I have several cop buddies with whom I went to school or met later. After college, they went on to become LEOs; I went into the Army. The difference in perspective regarding tolerance of error and responsibility for one's actions (whether or not one is complying with "orders") is a mile wide.

In the Army (especially in my unit), tolerance for "life changing/ending" error was not an issue. There was no tolerance for it. None. Errors committed during training, under "safe" conditions that showed up dangerous error in performance were ruthlessly dealt with. The term was "wall-to-wall counseling." It was unpleasant to experience, watch, and administer (I played every role by the end of my enlistment: counselled, counselor, and eyewitness). It is unpleasant to anyone not a sociopath and it bordered on the sadistic. But, if you had to administer, you had to muster up your outrage at what MIGHT have occured as well as your regard for that soldier in particular and those others under your command. And then you freakin' made d*mn sure that that boy understood that we had no tolerance for error. Not doing so would be a disservice to him, your other subordinates, and to your duty.

Errors that did result in harm generally earned a response under the UCMJ.

From speaking with veterans from other services, they, too, had little tolerance for error. I am reminded of a navy veteran that was punished under the UCMJ for not turning a valve at the proper time during a drill on the nuke sub he served on. No one was killed or injured or even put into serious danger, but they surely wanted to impress upon him the gravity of his error. I think the fact that none of our nuke carriers have gone up in a mushroom cloud and that we've lost what, one?, nuke sub testify that we can train 18 year old high-school grads to a tremendously high standard of performance.

Note that the intentions of the serviceman do not bear on the consequences of error. Screwing up "in good faith" just plain does not cut it.

I will grant that such a level of performance and the attending consequences for error is terrifically stressful, which is probably a reason so many enlistees do not re-enlist.

In the case of knocking down the wrong door, such errors ought to be career ending. Material damages ought to come out of pay checks as well as the city coffers. Errors that result in assault, battery, injury, or death ought to be prosecuted as if performed by any other citizen. Tough standards, no doubt. If you don't like it, don't volunteer for the job. Plenty of other jobs out there with greater tolerance for error.

I think the scariest difference in perspective, however, is in the responsibility one bears for executing illegal orders. I was taught that I was responsible for the legality of any order I executed. Some of my LEO buddies think that if they were ordered to do it, they bear no responsibility for the order's legality. I'm not quite sure if that is historical amnesia or merely self-serving rationalization.

They are still my buddies. I will admit, however, that I find it somewhat uncomfortable to be around them at times. Having the kind of authority they have and not being held accountable or to the same standards of performance I was is kinda disconcerting.

That is surely not how I was trained and is, I think, a reason why you get the outrage seen in these type threads, because if WE had pulled such a stunt, it would not have been so casually dismissed.

A great deal of the responsibility for the current state of affairs is the leadership failure of so many leaders in the LEO community to expect high levels of performance and back it up with teeth.

roo_ster
March 15, 2004, 05:53 PM
I wanted to add that my tolerance for error increases when the time/distance in which a decision must be made is less/small.

Busting down the wrong door when serving a no-knock warrant: INTOLERABLE. Do your freakin' homework & get the right house.

Making the wrong decision in a shoot/no shoot situation with only fractions of a second to make said decision: much more tolerable. It still might be wise to give 'em the boot, though. Who wants to be backed up by someone who's a proven screw-up?

pax
March 15, 2004, 05:55 PM
jfruser,

Very well said.

pax

To express the most difficult matters clearly and intelligently, is to strike coins out of pure gold. -- Geibel

FedDC
March 15, 2004, 06:00 PM
Accountable: Try this-
http://www.leldf.org/

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230071


http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227844

When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you...

TechBrute
March 15, 2004, 06:06 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is especially so when there exists a government-enforced disparity in arms between armed government agents and the rest of us "lowly" folks who can't be trusted by government with "assault weapons" and high cap magazines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can't blame the cops for this either. I want those same things for my own defense, so why on earth would I believe that cops shouldn't have them for their own defense...and furthermore my defense as well. I don't want the cops to be outgunned anymore than I want to be outgunned.

I'm going to disagree with this. I'm all for putting the same restrictions on LEOs as non-LEOs. Do you think a LEO is going to raise a finger to help non-LEOs get mandatory reciprocation passed if they already have it? Doubt it (sure, there will be a very, very few exceptions.) However, if they are in the same boat as us, they'll call their congresscritters, donate to campaign funds, hold up signs at rallies, etc. right along with us. For example, you don't see LEOs working hard to get standard-cap mags given back to us. If all they could carry was the castrated 10-rounders, you can bet they'd be beating down the door on the capitol. Another example is the "Smart Gun" technology. The LEOs had a fit when it was suggested that they may have to use this technology. You can bet if they weren't given exemption in the drafts of the bills, they'd do nothing short of riot and march on the capitol. Once they were exempted, they didn't jump forward and say that we shouldn't be subjected to the technology either, since the weaknesses that apply to LEOs apply to all users.

I'll be the first to say that I'm not very interested in causes that do not affect my immediate circle. I don't expect anyone to do the same, LEO or not.

TechBrute
March 15, 2004, 06:16 PM
Accountable: Try this-
http://www.leldf.org/

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071


http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844
We weren't there and neither were you. There sounds like there is plenty of doubt as to wether the shootings in the first GT thread was justified, and the office in the second thread was let off all criminal charges. So what if he lost the civil suit? That's a problem with the tort system in America, not the justice system.

When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you...
How about you try getting hastled by police, arrested, your door kicked in, your family roughed up, or your dog shot for going about your daily business. Everybody's got something to lose.

fix
March 15, 2004, 06:32 PM
Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you...

Most of us would probably stand a greater chance of going to jail for shooting that same crack dealer than you.

FedDC
March 15, 2004, 06:39 PM
Tell that to the officer in my third link.

fix
March 15, 2004, 06:50 PM
I'd be glad to tell him that. Furthermore, if he disagreed with that statement I'd think he was deluded.

roo_ster
March 15, 2004, 06:57 PM
"Accountable: Try this-
http://www.leldf.org/

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071


http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844

When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you..."

The leldef.com site reminded me of the following:

A buddy of mine was sued by a crack dealer's "estate" (whodda thunk a crack dealer had an "estate") for shooting him. Well, Mr. Crack Dealer was holding Ms. Crack Whore hostage at the time, tried to kill her, and fired at my buddy & his fellow officers. My buddy & such then sent Mr. Crack Dealer straight to hell by way of the .40S&W express train. Bad guy dead, hostage alive, cops uninjured. Good show, all around.

Oh, the crack whore also sued, 'cause one of the rounds fragmented inside Mr. Crack Dealer, exited, and injured her leg. THERE's gratitude for ya.

His dept fielded all the lawsuits, BTW, since it is pretty obvious they were in the right.

So, what's the point?

Being sued by the dregs of society for doing the right thing is not the same as being held accountable for one's actions. One is an abuse of the legal system, the other is good leadership. Frivolous lawsuits are in no way the same as proper discipline and high standards of performance.

There are, too, ways in which "accountability" has gone all wacky. Such as when the dept enforces discipline that protects ITSELF rather than the citizens or the LEOs. This whole profiling mess is part of that muck and only one example. Another is the use of sh*tty DAO autopistols with triggerpulls from H*ll. There are others...


*****************

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071
"Carbonneau, a two-year veteran of the Houston Police Department, has been suspended with pay pending the outcome of the investigation."

Is this an argument in favor of abolishing the grand jury system? If so, I concur.


******************

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844

OK, how do the glocktalk articles bear on the accountability, discipline, and intolerance for error that LEO leadership ought to impose and that our citizenry has a right to expect? These look to be opportunistic suits in the legal lottery that is our court system. Criminal court being used for the self-aggrandizement of politically-minded prosecutors. Civil court being used by the "estates" of crack dealers and their crack whores for their chance at millions.

********************************

Oh, BTW, I am quite familiar with loss of liberty for errors comitted in the line of duty. Nothing UCMJ-ish, just a time-honored alternative to correct my performance at the time and provide incentive to avoid errors in the future. Yep, it worked, as I still have it seared on my brain...

Also, I have, in the past, signed for millions of dollars worth of sensitive items. One of THOSE baby's lost and its federal-pound-you-hard-in-the-a$$-prison for me, boyo! As well as more fines than a SPC could expect to pay in 10 lifetimes. The fact I'm pounding on this keyboard and not getting pounded as somebody's girlfriend at Ft Levanworth is testimony that I managed not to hork it up. I can, partly, thank some hard-as-nails NCOs & Os for their none-too-gentle training. Leadership matters. Expectarions matter. Discipline matters.

...and what's the deal with federales burning the place down, AGAIN? For the love of Pete, I was taught as a child to be careful with fire.

Combat-wombat
March 15, 2004, 07:16 PM
Pax and Tamara both hit the nail on the head.

If para-military troopers storm into my house in the middle of the night, what am I supposed to do? I believe that I would start shooting. How do I know that they are real police, and this isn't a home invasion? It's exactly what Pax is saying with her "oops" point.

Tamara is right, too. When you storm into people's homes at night wearing camo BDUs and ski masks, there is NO room for a mistake. If, for instance, a SWAT team made that mistake in my house, they would be met with gunfire. I don't know they're real officers!

The Real Hawkeye
March 15, 2004, 07:28 PM
Errors that result in assault, battery, injury, or death ought to be prosecuted as if performed by any other citizen.Exactly! And this is exactly what is not happening. These guys rough up an unarmed pregnant woman, and she loses the baby, and nothing happens. These guys put a hole in an unarmed woman's head while she's holding a baby in her arms, and nothing happens. I guarantee that if I made "mistakes" like that, I'd be in jail for a good long time. Where's this supposed "higher standard" that they claim they are under?

Logan5
March 15, 2004, 08:10 PM
Some other issues I haven't seen raised in this thread yet spring to mind. 1) When a no-knock warrant gets served on the wrong place, you're not going to get another one before the bad guys at the place you meant to go to read about your screw up in the morning paper. Will they still be there when you get it straightened out and come for them, or have you scuttled the investigation and allowed them to run off and prey on the population from a new base?
2) If the warrant said one place and you went another, are prosecutors and judges going to be so hot on helping you in the future? Can you still performe effectively as a LEO if they think you're unreliable? Everyone is embarassed, some people's jobs are on the line, and they're all looking at you. If your response is "yeah well, high stress, mistakes happen..." isn't everyone way more likely to want to fire you, since you'd seem to be saying you think it's ok?
3) If you've got a no-knock warrant and it's not based on any affidavits by LEO's who've been there or observed the place, how was it justified to a prosecutor and a judge? If a SA or AUSA and a Judge approve a baseless warrant some eager beaver LEO brings to them, it's their fault. They get paid to vet warrants, among other things.
If the warrant is supported by fraudulent affadavits, whoever is tapping the land of make believe needs to be fired at the very least.

ETA: Hence; it's probably not an individual police officer's fault; we have several levels of "quality control" for these things here in America. Unless the cop is purposely misleading, it's the Judge's problem for approving something that's crap, along with the prosecutor who reviewed it.

atek3
March 16, 2004, 12:03 PM
We have a tough job to do if you don’t like we the way we do it then get off your collective butts and join the force and do it yourselves!!!

You know, it sounded like a good idea, but the Jack Boots just would'nt quite fit. Joking! Sheesh, lighten up.

atek3

sch40
March 16, 2004, 04:46 PM
Pax, Tamara, jfruser,
I agree with every word.
LEOs: just because you have a warrant or *think* you have the right guy, does not mean you are the Infallable Hand of God -- you are still an accountable citizen.
Since my thoughts have been stated so well in some of the previous posts, I'll just yield to those.

Stay safe, all,
sch40

TechBrute
March 16, 2004, 05:02 PM
We have a tough job to do if you don’t like we the way we do it then get off your collective butts and join the force and do it yourselves!!! I can't believe I missed this earlier. That is such a cop-out (no pun intended, I promise.) Seriously, take your ball and go home if that's the attitude you're going to have. :D

kbr80
March 16, 2004, 05:16 PM
Can't blame the cops for this either



yes I can. Where do you think the information comes from to obtain these warrants, no knock and all. umm, 1 guess. COPS


We have a tough job to do if you don’t like we the way we do it then get off your collective butts and join the force and do it yourselves!!!


If its too tough, that you cant do it right, might I suggest get out of the kitchen.

WilderBill
March 16, 2004, 05:47 PM
Hey weasel,

Try this prospective:

Two hours face down on a parking lot, gun at your back, in sub freezing weather, while a dozen JBTs rip the whole intireor out of your van.
If it had been any other power mad, crazed street gang I would've hunted 'em down one by one.
Don't say I don't cut you guys more slack than you deserve.

Oh yeah, that's just one instance.
Must have been my fault.
I had long hair.
Apparently not a legal option in Texas 30+ years back.

No I never bothered to file a complaint, it would only get me busted for something else I didn't do.

FedDC
March 16, 2004, 08:04 PM
So how would you say we do it???

The only people that NEVER make a mistake are the ones that NEVER DO ANYTHING!

Plus, it isn't as if the folks we chase list their name, DOB, SSN, picture, and address in a big criminal directory... There are times when we have to go on god, but limited information. The real world does not fit into a textbook.

Lets look at the reality:

There are violent criminals that will fight, kill, rape...etc and they must be arrested.

We as LEOS are charged with making that arrest.

In order to make those arrests, we must go to where they are which includes their house, car, job etc.

They will often resist our arrest attempt with violence IE gunfire.

Because of this, we counter their threat with weapons and the element of surprise...the latter being very very important if you want the LEOs to stay alive.

If we give up either the weapons (SMGs, Flashbangs, armor...) or the element of surprise, then we are actively compromising the safety of the officers. All of those tools have a specific purpose and that purpose is to affect the arrest safely.

When you demand mistake free humans, you will only get humans that do nothing because that is the only way to guarantee that no mistakes will be made. How many times do people complain that they see cops just sitting around in a coffee shop?

Want to know a little secret? Nobody ever got sued or arrested for sitting in a coffee shop... That is why. It is safer from a career standpoint to just do nothing which is what many of my fellow LEOs do because they got tired of being sued and threatened with arrest. Now, many of us just go hang out at the firehouse and watch movies...or take a nap in an alley. I don't blame them bc I understand how a man with a family would not want to get sued for his kids college money or possibly arrested for defending his own life...

I hear a lot of whining about how LEOs work, but no suggestions from the choir of chairborn rangers...

pax
March 16, 2004, 08:09 PM
All right. Both sides have had their say. Neither side is changing anyone's mind. And the rhetoric is heating up.

Guess it's time to close this one.

Thanks to everyone for keeping this very emotional topic fairly levelheaded.

pax

After all is said and done, there's usually a whole lot more said than done.

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