DHS Letter To Senator Coburn: Ammunition Purchases


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alsaqr
March 24, 2013, 12:15 AM
In early February the DHS replied to an inquiry by senator Coburn; reference ammunition purchases. In FY 2012 the DHS purchased 103,178,200 rounds of small arms ammunition. The DHS will spend about $37,000,000 on ammunition in FY 2013.

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/rightnow?ContentRecord_id=d5bc6da6-cdf8-4c4f-886e-0cdeb52c9feb&ContentType_id=b4672ca4-3752-49c3-bffc-fd099b51c966

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browningguy
March 24, 2013, 12:49 AM
That's a lot of boolits!

ilbob
March 24, 2013, 12:50 AM
one would think that it would not be all that hard to get an answer to a simple question like this.

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 12:58 AM
A couple of points come to mind.

1) This is very much in keeping with suggestions we've been making here about who DHS has to provide ammo for, and how much. No surprises -- EXCEPT that their ammo purchases have been FALLING off significantly. I think we should demand to know WHY DHS is NOT purchasing as much ammo as they once did!

2) This is not exactly the same thing as the much ballyhooed IDIQ contract to supply [Carl Sagan]billions and billions[/Carl Sagan] of rounds in the future.

EmGeeGeorge
March 24, 2013, 01:06 AM
In 2008 there were over 120,000 sworn, pistol and rifle and shotgun toting Feds operating in the U.S. prolly with more today.
Plus 1600 in P.R.
If you take number if rounds purchased and divide it by the numbers of gun-toters, you get just under 900 rounds per officer/agent/BOP guard/Deputy Marshall, etc.
That makes the $37 million come out to $300 ish bucks a year per officer.
Lets say 100 rounds for a qual twice a year for the standard officer for pistol only. Now mix in rifle, shotgun...
I think this story has been beaten to death over and over and over.
The DHS isn't stockpiling to gun down us patriots in Liberal-Death-Re-education Camps.
Let's do math and leave the (crazy) conjecture to the Alex Jones of the world.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fleo08.pdf

FourTeeFive
March 24, 2013, 01:19 AM
The numbers that I've seen don't add up. At least there is some national press saying the same thing:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/

jim243
March 24, 2013, 01:21 AM
Let's do math and leave the (crazy) conjecture to the Alex Jones of the world.

Ok let's say that is true, shortages didn't happen untill 2013, what are the figures for 2013? Second, you believe everything the government says? Right they never lie.

How many rounds of ammo does the DOD purchase or is that included in this figure, I would think they need more than the DHS purchases. And has their pruchases gone up?

The long and short of it is I have no idea on what is going on, and neither does anyone here.

Jim

-v-
March 24, 2013, 03:13 AM
Governments may lie, but ledgers do not.

Surprisingly, it seems the government gets actually a worse price per round then the average consumer did in the good times. I am used to getting 5.56x45 at 33 cents per round and handgun ammo at 25-34 cents per round (varies by caliber). DHS seems to be paying about 37 cents per round....a good 10% above what consumers pay. I figured they should be getting a descent quantity discount for buying as much ammo at once as they do, but I guess not.

JohnBT
March 24, 2013, 09:25 AM
"The numbers that I've seen don't add up."

Quit looking at articles like the one in Forbes. There has been NO purchase of 1.6 billion rounds of ammo. The contract allows the purchase of that much ammo over 5 years IF the agency can come up with the money and then decides to actually order some ammo. They don't have to buy any ammo at all. This is a standard government contract that says we might want this much ammo, but maybe not.


"I think we should demand to know WHY DHS is NOT purchasing as much ammo as they once did!"

I think we know why - lack of money. The federal budget is a bust. Do we even have a current federal budget?

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 10:59 AM
"I think we should demand to know WHY DHS is NOT purchasing as much ammo as they once did!"

I think we know why - lack of money. The federal budget is a bust. Do we even have a current federal budget?

But what about the massive government conspiracy to equip our law enforcement agencies to take over the country and subjugate the population?

How in the world are they paying for THAT then? That's what I want to know! I mean, it's not just ammo. That's millions of pairs of jackboots, and all those expensive little swagger sticks. ...




;)

alsaqr
March 24, 2013, 11:09 AM
Senator Coburn seems satisfied with the DHS response:

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/03/22/watch-sen-tom-coburn-asks-why-government-is-buying-so-much-ammunition/

alsaqr
March 24, 2013, 11:20 AM
How in the world are they paying for it, that's what I want to know!

Maybe the fed is printing money for DHS use only.

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 11:33 AM
Maybe the fed is printing money for DHS use only.

That's IT!

Call Alex Jones!!! Only he can save us now!!!







:D

Torian
March 24, 2013, 11:49 AM
I think the large amount of armored vehicle (MRAPS) purchasing by DHS for domestic operations is far more intriguing than ammo purchases.

BigBore44
March 24, 2013, 12:25 PM
Sam you crack me up. Some fail to see your humor. Coburn is all about finding government wasteful spending. He found BILLIONS and didn't have to look very hard.

The government pays more because the company's that sell said product know the government will pay more. Like $2500 for a toilet seat or $500 for a screwdriver. I'm sure that's an exaggeration but I bet it's not as big of an exaggeration as we think.

Old Fuff
March 24, 2013, 12:35 PM
The CEO at Olin/Winchester that make Winchester-branded ammunition said that the company's back-ordered commercial ammunition orders (the stuff you and I buy) is more then U.S. military service and law enforcement combined. :what:

If you want to know what's going on, visit your local WalMart when the weekly ammunition shipment comes in.

And don't think for one minute that this doesn't have some folks in Washington alarmed.

Grassman
March 24, 2013, 12:50 PM
But, but, but.....Drones over our cities.....:banghead:

Old Fuff
March 24, 2013, 01:34 PM
That's another problem I have. They fly over me all of the time. :what:

I think they are either being tested, or on they're way to the U.S./Mexican border for a look-see. I find them fun to watch. :cool:

BigBore44
March 24, 2013, 01:42 PM
Hey if we follow Biden's advice..... Maybe he's scared of drones too!!!! "Honey I think there's someone outside. Go take that double barrel and shoot it out the window a couple times". Maybe he's scared they are spying on him. Genius!!!

Sorry, that just popped in my head. Back on topic.

fastbolt
March 24, 2013, 01:52 PM
I've never been bothered by the amount of ammunition ordered by LE agencies (having been involved in such things myself).

Locking in pricing for 2-5 years on contracts good for future purchases makes sense, too.

If the motoring public and the gov are trying to out-do each other on ordering ammunition (with the public picking up the bill for both :scrutiny: ), the only ones laughing are the major ammo companies. :neener:

Bubbles
March 24, 2013, 01:59 PM
The government pays more because the company's that sell said product know the government will pay more. Like $2500 for a toilet seat or $500 for a screwdriver. I'm sure that's an exaggeration but I bet it's not as big of an exaggeration as we think.
No, the government pays more because of the added overhead, administration, compliance reporting, and expense that government contractors entail if they want to sell to FedGov. For ammunition, that would entail everything from EEO reporting to potential ITAR compliance. It's not as easy as a commercial sale where you simply take the order, generate an invoice, run the customer's credit card, and ship.

greenmtnguy
March 24, 2013, 02:10 PM
With as many rounds as they seem to allocate to annual training/qualification, I'd expect these DHS affiliated groups to be very good shots.

I wonder how much the NYC police force spends on practice ammunition, given that they'll fire dozens of rounds and hit innocent bystanders to take down 1 shooter. Or, how many rounds the LA police use for annual practice, as they seem to be all over the place with their firing on a stationary pickup truck.

buck460XVR
March 24, 2013, 02:18 PM
With as many rounds as they seem to allocate to annual training/qualification, I'd expect these DHS affiliated groups to be very good shots.




That or they have a good stockpile of free ammo at home.

gearhead
March 24, 2013, 02:40 PM
Governments may lie, but ledgers do not.

Surprisingly, it seems the government gets actually a worse price per round then the average consumer did in the good times. I am used to getting 5.56x45 at 33 cents per round and handgun ammo at 25-34 cents per round (varies by caliber). DHS seems to be paying about 37 cents per round....a good 10% above what consumers pay. I figured they should be getting a descent quantity discount for buying as much ammo at once as they do, but I guess not.
DHS buys a mix of M855 and hunting/defense rounds in .223. The defensive stuff is considerably more expensive which skews the average up.

PBR Streetgang
March 24, 2013, 02:45 PM
My question is when did they arm TSA?

PBR Streetgang
March 24, 2013, 02:49 PM
Armed agents must also be law enforcement officers who are currently active, retired or formerly qualified with at least four years of law enforcement experience. They must have completed basic law enforcement training from a federal, state or local government body. Officers are nominated by either an airport or aircraft operator. Though working under a government program, agents are not employed by the federal government. Rather, they are compensated by the nominating body.


I took the above quote from the TSA webpage. If they are not Federal agents where do they get their powers? Who is the nominating body?

blarby
March 24, 2013, 02:49 PM
I personally think we should have a Sam1911 Cynacism and Sarcasm corner.... Although it is fun to find his little gems all over the place. Its like finding unfired rounds in your brass bucket- factory ones, in calibers you shoot !

Sam1911
March 24, 2013, 03:36 PM
With as many rounds as they seem to allocate to annual training/qualification, I'd expect these DHS affiliated groups to be very good shots.
You've got to read some of the math members here have done on this to better understand it. Post 5 is an example, but there have been lots better ones done before.

These "vast" piles of ammo generally work out to something like 600-900 rounds per officer, per year. The kind of round count most of us would blow through in a couple of months! Certainly not a quantity that they could be stockpiling or sneaking home with them.

And, in fact, distressingly little for folks we HIRE to wield arms in the enforcement of laws, out in public ... but that's always the case it seems.

greenmtnguy
March 25, 2013, 01:07 AM
If I had 600-900 rounds allocated for practice each year as part of my job, I'd certainly use them all. I know some folks who would blow through that many rounds at the range in a few months, but it would certainly cover my needs for a longer period. Many, but not all, of the police officers I know would consider 900 rounds a lifetime supply.

JohnBT
March 25, 2013, 10:20 AM
I wonder how much of the DHS ammo is shot by other agencies at one of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers run by DHS.

"More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year." - Referring to the center in Georgia.

303tom
March 25, 2013, 10:30 AM
Beeeens my tax $ paid for some of that ammo, I want my ammo back...............

thralldad
March 25, 2013, 11:03 AM
Oddly enough National Guard units only get 9 rounds for zero and 40 qualification rounds annually. I am concerned about the MAXX Pro MRAP purchases. What do they need them for?

herkyguy
March 25, 2013, 02:51 PM
Oddly enough National Guard units only get 9 rounds for zero and 40 qualification rounds annually. I am concerned about the MAXX Pro MRAP purchases. What do they need them for?
to tow the drones...duh.

whoa....i think one just flew over me.

thralldad
March 25, 2013, 05:09 PM
Doh. should have tought of that!

12many
March 25, 2013, 08:05 PM
I am amazed by the numbers. 250 million rounds in inventory. Another 100 million rounds ordered. 100,000 agents not to mention all the admin/support staff And I don't think this inlcudes FBI, secret service, or the local police/sherrif/HP forces, or the agencies I don't know of or did not list.

The amount the government spends and how many people who are on the government dole never ceases to amaze me. It would be interesting to see the numbers over the 50 years.

One a side note, we have been watching I Love Lucy re-runs lately. Oh how the world has changed, and I am not that old.

barnbwt
March 25, 2013, 08:17 PM
to tow the drones...duh.

Ba-zing! :D

According to our frenemy "infowars" (:rolleyes:), another 360,000 rounds have been ordered (or, knowing Alex Jones, that's the quantity that's been fulfilled of the XX-billion round IDIQ contract :rolleyes:), which is a quantity that is miniscule at best for an octopus the size of the montrous DHS.

I've been saying the real question should be the wisdumb of allowing a psuedo-para-military organization to become large enough that it can justifiably buy Federal-Army-size quantities of ammunition, equipment, and personnel. Combining these agencies under one roof in the name of increased cooperative efficiency (which is doubtless impossible for such politicized organizations) and increased data sharing (which is happening, but doesn't seem to actually improve intelligence dissemination based on all the intel SNAFUs we've had lately) only served to remove the checks and balances between the organizations and how they competed for dollars and justified their own existences. It was akin to merging the Congressional houses and the President under one Office so as to increase the efficiency of law-making :uhoh:

Related question; how many rounds did the Russians/Bloc have squirreled away at their peak? Seems like they had enough to actively sustain our civilian militia for, what, 30 some-odd years now? Too bad they'll be no other free countries to sell our old milsurp to once the republic collapses (j/k ;))

TCB

shafter
March 25, 2013, 08:17 PM
On one end of the spectrum we have a little crowd of gun owners ready to start a revolution at the drop of a tinfoil hat. On the other side is a chorus of gun owners merrily singing la la la and preaching from the gospel of "Common Sense" in order to win lost souls from the anti gun side.

I think both are equally stupid and equally dangerous. Pay attention, keep your guard up and don't discount anything ANYONE says or does at the federal level.

mrvco
March 25, 2013, 08:24 PM
Whatever they don't shoot is probably getting sold at the local gun shows :)

Al Thompson
March 26, 2013, 08:58 AM
This one is done....

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