Would banning guns stop the worst mass murders?


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jsalcedo
March 14, 2004, 11:36 AM
Top 15 Mass Murders (U.S.)

Rank #Murdered Criminal Year Method Used
---- --------- -------- ---- -----------
1 297 William Estel Brown 1937 Natural gas explosion
2 217 Gameel El Batouty 1999 Egypt Air 990, deliberate crash
3 200+ H. Lucas and Otis Toole 1970's Strangulation, knife
4 200+ Tommy Lynn Sells 1980's Knife
5 168 Timothy McVeigh 1995 Chemical explosion
6 150 Herman W. Mudgett 1890's Torture
7 87 Julio Gonzales 1990 Gasoline arson
8 75+ Ted Bundy 1970's Strangulation, knife
9 67 Randolph Kraft 1970's Strangulation
10 58 Donald Harvey 1970's Medicine, toxins
11 49 "Green River Killer" 1980's Strangulation, clubs
12 45 "San Diego Murderer" 1980's Strangulation
13 44 John G. Graham 1957 Airplane bomb
14 43 Andrew Kehoe Bath 1927 dynamite bomb, MI school
15 "30-40" Charles Cullen 1990's Medical overdoses

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Mark Tyson
March 14, 2004, 11:40 AM
Yes, but ... these people are not as dead as the ones killed with guns. LOL

Interesting list. I remember #7. Some of these guys are actually serial killers rather than mass murderers, as the former commit their crimes over a long period of time.

Nathanael_Greene
March 14, 2004, 11:51 AM
The real mass-murders are the heads of state. Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Mugabe, etc.

And for the most part, they banned gun ownership among their citizens.

So it's clear--banning guns does not reduce violence. All it does is provide an incentive for those who still have weapons to use them.

Samurai Penguin
March 14, 2004, 12:10 PM
# Murdered: 3000+
Scumbag: Osama bin Ladin & party of fanatics
Date: 9/11/01
Method: A package of boxcutters and four jetliners. Notice the conspicuous lack of guns...!

Travis McGee
March 14, 2004, 12:53 PM
Actually, banning guns LEADS to the worst mass-murders.

http://www.jpfo.org/7.jpg

Barbara
March 14, 2004, 01:40 PM
Sure it would..and banning incest and polygamy would have stopped the animal in Fresno this week.

PATH
March 14, 2004, 01:49 PM
Ditto!:fire:

lee n. field
March 14, 2004, 02:05 PM
Genocide is murder on the largest scale. Confiscation of arms is a necessary but not sufficent precondition for genocide. So, no, banning guns would not stop the worst mass murders.

John Lott on gun control and mass public shootings: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=161637

El Tejon
March 14, 2004, 02:18 PM
Hmmm, I find the premise flawed.

Guns are banned to expedite mass murders, not prevent them!

glocksman
March 14, 2004, 02:21 PM
Your list combines mass murderers (such as the bomber Andrew Kehoe) with serial killers (such as Ted Bundy).

There is a difference.

From wikipedia.

Serial killers are individuals who have a history of multiple slayings of individuals usually unknown to them beforehand. A phenomenon which seemed to gain some prominence in the second half of the twentieth century, record of the practice can be found at least as far back as London's Jack the Ripper (1888) or Hanover's Fritz Haarmann (1924).

Although the terms "serial killer" and "mass murderer" are often used synonymously, criminologists distinguish the two. The following distinctions are commonly made:

A serial killer is one who commits a number of murders over a long period of time, with the killings separated by often long periods of apparent normalcy.
A mass murderer, on the other hand, is an individual who kills several people in a single event.
A spree killer kills in a series of closely connected events.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a serial killing as: "[involving] the killing of several victims in three or more separate events." This definition is especially close to that of a spree killer, and perhaps the primary difference between the two is that a serial killer tends to "lure" victims to their death; whereas, a spree killer tends to go "hunting".

Serial killers are often acting on extreme sadistic urges and are often classified as sociopathic, lacking any ability to empathize with the suffering of others. In many cases, a serial killer will plead not guilty by reason of insanity. This defense is almost universally unsuccessful.

The public's fascination with serial killers led to some successful crime novels and films about fictional serial killers, including Helen Zahavi's novel Dirty Weekend, Bret Easton Ellis's American Psycho, and the Academy Award-winning movie Silence of the Lambs.

In most cases, a gun wouldn't do many serial killer victims much good, as the killer seems normal to the victim until he feels safe in dropping the mask. This was how Ted Bundy operated.



Outside of a political context, the term "mass murder" refers to the killing of several people at the same time. Examples would include shooting several people in the course of a robbery, or setting a crowded nightclub on fire. This is an ambiguous term, similar to serial killing and spree killing. The USA Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a mass murder as: "[involving] the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event."

Stand_Watie
March 14, 2004, 09:46 PM
Is Peurto Rico part of the US or not? There was an arson murder there in 89 or 90 that would be between 6 and 7 on your list. Clayton Cramer documents this on his website at

www.claytoncramer.com

(The guy is truly a giant in the world of the intellectual firearms rights movement)

A guy in south korea killed 100+ a couple years ago with a milk carton full of gasoline on the subway.

4v50 Gary
March 14, 2004, 09:51 PM
Ditto above, especially what OBL had done in NY & now in Spain.:fire:

M1911Owner
March 14, 2004, 11:33 PM
Let's get this into perspective (these are estimates from memory):

* Stalin: 50,000,000 +/-; guns were banned

* Hilter: 6,000,000 Jews, a bunch of others as well; guns were banned

* Pol Pot: 3,000,000 +/-

* The genocide in Rwanda; no guns, the killing was done with machetes

J Jones
March 14, 2004, 11:48 PM
Mao got over 30 million it would seem.

Hitler got around 15-20 million, since he didn't just kill 6 million Jews, something I'd wish the media would point out once in a while.

BHPshooter
March 15, 2004, 10:24 AM
As has been mentioned (but I just had to add to it), the WORST mass murderers used gun control as a key element to their dirty deeds.

Think Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, ad nauseum.

All one needs to remember is how much of a run for their money the Jews gave the Nazis when they performed their little ghetto resistance.

Like has always been said, guns are neither good nor evil (that decision is left up to the user), but in the hands of an underdog, numbers become less relevant.

Guns, the great equalizer.

Wes

ksnecktieman
March 15, 2004, 11:10 AM
There seems to be a real lack of guns as weapon of choice there. The arson and bombings would have been hard to stop,,,, but??? The individual slayings, gun availability may have shortened the list of victims IF the victims had been armed.

Does anyone remember the name Susanna Gratia Hupp??? If I recall correctly she was in Killen Texas in the Mcdonalds shooting with her parents. Her pistol was in the glove compartment of her car instead of on her person, and she got to watch her parents murdered.

If four pilots had guns with them on 9/11/2001 would box cutters have been enough to bring down the twin towers?

Mark Tyson
March 15, 2004, 11:20 AM
Susanna Gratia Hupp

Didn't she run for office on a pro-CCW platform?

RobW
March 15, 2004, 12:03 PM
Sad thing is, this will not convince a single intolerant aka "Liberal" because their goal is NOT to prevent crimes, or protect 'OUR CHIIIIILLLDREN" but to take complete control over the unwashed masses.

They consider themselves as "Elite" with the mindset "do what I tell you, don't do what I do!"

the experience from the French Revolution to Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. shows that most of them are the first to be crushed in the mill of the most ruthless life-forms trying to get to the top and stay there.

This is why Lenin called them "useful idiots".

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
March 15, 2004, 01:03 PM
Yes, Suzanna Hupp is a state representiative in Texas now. She is one of the principals responsible for our excelllent concealed carry laws here.

Regards,
Rabbit.

MrAcheson
March 15, 2004, 01:46 PM
Sad thing is, this will not convince a single intolerant aka "Liberal" because their goal is NOT to prevent crimes, or protect 'OUR CHIIIIILLLDREN" but to take complete control over the unwashed masses.
I wouldn't go quite this far, but the truth is close. Gun control is not about controlling violent crime. It is about controlling gun owners because we make the gun-controllers uncomfortable. We have freedom and power they lack. It worries them. Protecting the children and violent crime rates are just pretext to justify the real reason, their own inferiority complex.

spacemanspiff
March 15, 2004, 02:37 PM
it would probably stop as many mass murderers as the laws that ban sexual assault have prevented rapists from assaulting their victims.

Nighthawk
March 15, 2004, 02:49 PM
Here's one thing most gun control advocates are too narrow-minded to accept: Guns aren't the only method of killing. They aren't even the most efficent way of killing.

Another thing most gun control advocates won't admit is that they're hypocritical. How many of these people have armed bodyguards? How many of these people have guns themselves?

What liberals don't tell you is that they are actually in favor of a caste system in which they, as the spearheaders, are in an upper caste and entitled to the priviledges thereof while we, the people they're supposedly representing and/or trying to proect, are a subordinate caste that is not entitled to priviledges such as tax shelters, gun ownership, and even possession and opperation of powerful four-wheel-drive pickups and SUVs (in the name of protecting the environment). They will enjoy these things and do so braizenly while we struggle and suffer to make a living and provide for our families both in terms of material posessions and safety.

AJ Dual
March 15, 2004, 02:56 PM
If anything, the presence of guns in society has kept the body count from mass murders lower. As others have noted, the real "pro's" all used fire, explosives or gasses to do thier dirty work. The anti-gun movment also unwittingly contributes to this, as their demonizes guns into a talisman of power for the dissafected individuals who would commit these acts.

If Harris and Kleebold had really wanted to destroy Columbine H.S. as they stated they did, they would have done much better to perform some research into where the main sprinkler valve shutoffs were, and brought some bike chains for the doors, and a few gallons of gasoline.

iapetus
March 21, 2004, 10:35 AM
Here's what the Guinness Book of Records says:

(1985 eddition - we haven't got an up-to-date one at home).

But the "Crime" section starts with the following:

CRIME:
Mass Killings China
The greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one soverign nation against the government of another is that of 26,300,000 Chinese during the reign of Mao Tse-tung between 1949 and May 1965.. This accusation was made by an agency of the USSR Government in a radio broadcast on 7 Apr 1969. ... The Walker Report published by the US Senate Committe of the Judiciary in July 1971 placed the parameters of the total death roll within China since 1949 between 32.25 and 61.7 million.

USSR
... estimated loss of life from State repression and terrorism Oct 1917 to Dec 1959 under Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev at 66,700,000.

Nazi Germany
... The best estimate is that 5.8 million Jews were killed in Europe in 1939-1945.

[Doesn't make any mention of the non-Jews. A recent documentary I saw talked about 70,000 disabled people executed (with a party held in the gas chamber, with bear and wine, to celebrate the 10,000th), and many others forcibly sterilised. I've seen estimates of about 5m Slavs].


Forced Labour
[Corrective Labour Camps in the USSR] An estimate published in the Netherlands put the death roll betweel 1921 and 1960 at 19,000,000... best estimate that the number of inmates had been 66 million.

[China] An estimate published by Bao Ruo-wang ... was 16,000,000 which then [1960s] approached 3% of the population.

Genocide
In the genocide in Cambodia, according to the Khmer Rouge foreign minister Ieng Sarg, more than a third of the 8 million Khmers were killed between 17 Apr 1975 and Jan 1979. Under the rule of Saloth Sar alias Pol Pot ... towns, money and property were abolished and economical execution by bayonet and club were introduced for such offenses as falling asleep during the day, asking too many questions, playing non-Communist music, being old and feeble, being the offspring of an "undesirable" or being too well educated. Deaths at the Tuol Sleng interrogation camp reached 582 in a day.




That is the what the Guinness Book of Records' lists first , before it gets onto "normal" crimes like serial killing and mass murder. (Which, if it were an up-to-date edition, would probably include the estimated 250 murders by poison by British doctor Harold Shipman).

joab
March 21, 2004, 11:16 AM
I always find it interesting that it is almost never mentioned that Hitler also tried to purge Homosexuals, the Handicapped, Gypsies, Communist, Trade Unions , Blacks and even Jehova's Witnesses

7.62FullMetalJacket
March 21, 2004, 12:06 PM
But for the 2A and guns, the same type of mass murder would be happenning here. The authoritarians have still not developed their utopia after 70 years of wealth redistribution, environmental policies, high-density housing, applying legitimacy to the immoral, etc. They are up against a wall because we have the ability to resist their tyranny. They have known for decades that gun control must occur before people control. The final dash to utopia will be possible only after we are disarmed.

Highland Ranger
March 21, 2004, 12:22 PM
Everyone knows man never killed before the gun was invented. War and murder only started after the gun was invented . . . .

Oh wait that's not right . . . hmmmmmmmm

Hkmp5sd
March 21, 2004, 01:08 PM
Does anyone remember the name Susanna Gratia Hupp??? If I recall correctly she was in Killen Texas in the Mcdonalds shooting with her parents.
It was at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas.

If Harris and Kleebold had really wanted to destroy Columbine H.S. as they stated they did, they would have done much better to perform some research into where the main sprinkler valve shutoffs were, and brought some bike chains for the doors, and a few gallons of gasoline.
They tried to destroy the school, but were incompetent bomb makers. The intent was to blow the school up using the bombs they had planted and then use the guns and knives to finish off any survivors and to pick off the first responders.

M1911Owner
March 21, 2004, 08:10 PM
But for the 2A and guns, the same type of mass murder would be happenning here."The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary for the public good. ... If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so, to any extent you may think necessary."

Governor Lilburn W. Boggs, October 27, 1838, Missouri Executive Order Number 44.Fortunately, the Mormons were armed, and shot back, so the Missouri Militia was only able to massacre, IIRC, about 18 Mormons, at the Hann's Mill Massacre.

I note that this order remained in force until 1976:WHEREAS, on October 27, 1838, the Governor of the State of Missouri, Lilburn W. Boggs, signed an order calling for the extermination or expulsion of Mormons from the State of Missouri; and

WHEREAS, Governor Boggs' order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and

WHEREAS, in this bicentennial year as we reflect on our nation's heritage, the exercise of religious freedom is without question one of the basic tenets of our free democratic republic;

Now, THEREFORE, I, CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Governor of the State of Missouri, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the State of Missouri, do hereby order as follows: Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering which was caused by the 1838 order, I hereby rescind Executive Order Number 44, dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs.

In witness I have hereunto set my hand and caused to be affixed the great seal of the State of Missouri, in the city of Jefferson, on this 25 day of June, 1976.

(Signed) Christopher S. Bond, Governor.To those who say, "It can't happen here," it not only can happen here, is has happened here.

Mastrogiacomo
March 21, 2004, 08:26 PM
Ted Bundy killed all his victims with crow bars, rope and his bare hands -- as did Jeffrey Dahrmer -- with drugs too. So I'd say no. People forget that they're are probably more murders due to baseball bats, poison, crow bars, cars, knives, hatchets, fire, etc. than guns -- but you'll never hear about that because celebs need to sound intelligent, so guns will always be cited as the evil instruement of death....

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