"modernizing" an M1 for today's "tacticality"?


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Buckskinner
March 14, 2004, 12:38 PM
So I've accumulated a few M1's (thanks CMP!) so I can arm my wife and daughter for competition, range days, and other stuff...

Of course I love the M1 for its history (my Grandfather carried one for three years in the Pacific. When I showed him mine, he grabbed it, did a quick chamber check, shouldered it, and gave it back. He said he hoped I would never have to use it like he did....), rugged functionality and my favorite caliber, but I'm wondering about fielding this rifle more ergonomically.

By the way, I don't want to get into long discussions with other M1 cultists about "it worked for gramps this way, why change?" I know this rifle sometimes can bring a gut emotion especially regarding changing the venerable system, but its my rifle, and I know how I want to use it..

I know gramps had the regular issue sling, with none of this fancy three point business, but I LIKE the "tactical" sling. On other rifles and shotguns I field with, the three point sling is fantastic to be able to carry rifles in a variety of ready positions. I think I've seen one available for M14.

Also, some kind of night sight fix. Tritium inserts, etc.

A better way to carry the clips. Right now I'm slinging the bandoleer over pack straps, but that's an expedient, not permanent.

That's really it. Better sling, sights for low light, better clip carrying solution.

Any ideas?

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Skunkabilly
March 14, 2004, 01:03 PM
You know SA, Inc's upcoming M1A SOCOM? I really want a .308 M1 Garand SOCOM Scout. Chopped down to 16", with the HK-style sights, Ching sling, scout mount with a 2.5x Leupold and a SureFire. How tac-@$$ would that be? :cool:

Maybe call it the M1 Garand SOCUTE.

thefitzvh
March 14, 2004, 03:36 PM
call it the M1 garand SOSKUNK


Brochure would read "This ubertactical rifle is so tactical, that its tacticality is tactically tactical."


:neener:

Buckskinner
March 14, 2004, 04:10 PM
Not sure I want to illuminate something I'm gonna shoot at with an '06...

pwrtool45
March 14, 2004, 04:29 PM
"It was as if millions of voices cried out at once, and were silenced."

Sorry. I really don't have anything to add. I just thought that would be cute.

So, uh, sorry.

Actually, I might. A guy I know put a Blackhawk tactical sling on his suppressed 9mm CAR-15. The weight of that huge honkin suppressor prevented the rifle from situating itself properly (too nose-heavy, I guess). While the Garand is a tad bit more balanced, it's still a heavy rifle with a lot of steel out front. Most of these slings seem to be designed for CAR-15/M4-sized weapons. I don't think you're going to find most tactical slings to work very well, even if you can find the sling itself. They're built around much lighter equipment that just balances differently. At least, that's the case in my limited experience with tactical rifles and gear.

Dunno if you're going to get away with nigh sights, either. However, there was a thread recently about a scout rail type setup for the Garand. If you missed it, do a search. That'd let you set up a scope/dot to your prefrence. Pretty timely question on your part. ;)

I think a manner to transport en-bloc clips could be arranged pretty easily. Anything that holds them in a tight enough friction-fit pouch with an open top would be almost ideal. Given some nylon pager pouches, extra nylon, Dr Scholls gel insoles, an exacto knife and some thread, you could manufacture one of these without much trouble.

Well, maybe I did have something to contrubute after all. Aside from my Slashdot-esque Star Wars reference. Maybe I should be modded up +5 "Insigh-orous"

Baba Louie
March 14, 2004, 05:12 PM
I always liked the treatment Beretta did to them. Very tactical tho left in wood and parkerized steel (I guess you could put a synthetic stock together for one)
.308, 20 rds, shorten this and that... don't know if it really needed forearm finger-grips routed... maybe a bi-pod for them what like em.
It's handsome and dangerous in an Italian sort of way... pre George Jetson

MolonLabe416
March 14, 2004, 06:10 PM
Smith Enterprises does a nice "Tanker" T-26 type conversion. 18" bbl. Add one of their flash hiders. I'd go Ching Sling instead of tac sling. Scout scope mount which gives the option of an AimPoint type optic or a 2.5x EER Scout Scope. I prefer 308 since I already have rifles in that caliber, but since you seem to have several in '06, I'd stick with that. If fact, I'll be doing just this later this year.

4v50 Gary
March 14, 2004, 07:11 PM
Shorten the barrel and the op-rod needs to be reengineered (or the helix of the op rod) to change the timing of the unlocking. Beretta did this with their BM-59 (it's straighter than the M-1).

BTW, there's also a forward scope mount now, isn't there? Consider that with a red-dot.

Kestrel
March 14, 2004, 07:42 PM
Tanker Garand conversions aren't always as reliable as a standard Garand.

Black Snowman
March 14, 2004, 07:49 PM
Tactical isn't always CQB. How about 2.5x night vision scope ;) Hmm pricey and very heavy. Sling can be tricky, particulary for a heavy weapon. A carry handle similar to a FAL could be useful in the transportation department to supliment a conventional sling. No good ideas on the ammo.

Buckskinner
March 14, 2004, 10:08 PM
The Beretta version is definitely an eye opener. I saw one awhile ago someone called a "Nigerian" model. With a pistol grip, etc.

I need to look into the forward mount, as I'm not clear exactly how the replacement gets pinned on stable enough to put any kind of glass on it.

These are good ideas though, and I appreciate the feedback.

I need to think about building one up or using one of my current ones...

4v50 Gary
March 14, 2004, 10:22 PM
Buckskinner, I happen to have a Nigerian pistol grip stock & a spare M-84 mounted on one of my M-1s. Now I have to adapt the compensator/grenade launcher & bipod to complete its evilness. For the finishing touch, a genuine faux-detachable magazine (wood covered with soda pop can and held in place to the real floorplate by a magnet?).

LeonCarr
March 14, 2004, 10:50 PM
I think the best way to modernize the M1 Garand for tacticality is to buy as many 8 round clips and rounds of ammunition as you can afford, and shoot the heck out of it. Gadgets don't win gunfights.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

dave3006
March 15, 2004, 12:26 AM
Unless your rifle is full auto, a box magazine is not that big of a deal. You can't beat the speed (and tacticality) of the enbloc clips. CQB or not, you want penetration. Bad guys like to hide behind things. 30-06 will penetrate.

I took my Garand to an urban carbine course and I was not handicaped in the least. My only disadvantage was at night. The gun needs a way to mount a red dot scope. This is in the works right now from Ultimak and the Amega ranges scout mount.

You should have seen the looks on everyones faces when it was my turn to shoot steel. It hits with authority that the .223 just does not have.

thefitzvh
March 15, 2004, 12:28 AM
That beretta is sexy... it WILL be mine...


:cool:

James

Buckskinner
March 15, 2004, 12:44 AM
I've read that thread about you and your Garand at a carbine class. I hope to follow in your footsteps this year, after my pistol and shotgun classes...

Good point about the penetration.

I looked at the rails but don't really understand how they'll replace the wood and be firm enough to mount a good sight.

The only thing about the 8round clips, is when I'm watching the History channel, and it shows 5 or 6 pissed off militant fundamental muslims with AK 47s, which have what look to be 30 round magazines, I feel, well, a wee bit disadvantaged. Now, give me some distance and a little planning, and a friend or two, and I wouldn't be as worried. But I'm reminded of doing a "trailwalk" at a rendezvous (you know, the fur trade reenactments?) and one of the targets was across a river. You shot the target laying down behind a log. When reloading (think 41" barrell and a 5' ramrod!) you had to keep laying down, and if a referee saw the ramrod or you over the log, you lost many points. Same here with feeding my trusty M1 four or five times in the same fight as one of their mags...

Oh, and I do agree with the Texan about "buy bullets, not gadgets" and practice. But I don't want to make like the ancient Babylonians and wait til dawn to fight, if someone else is shootin' at me!

By the way, I shot metallic silhouette with one of my M1's a while back, and rang the heck out of those suckers. If you don't know, the metal silhouettes are about 8-14" wide (varies with target), and we shoot them at 200 yards, offhand with no sling. Its come as you are...So I'm not sure Id put any optics on my rifle, but it'd be nice to have some glow in the dark paint or something on the post at least..

Here's a question for you. I haven't tried this, but it works when I go jump shooting ducks. I will keep two shells in my offhand, between my fingers. 12 gauge shells fit well there, and I can handle my shotgun with no problem, and stuff those boys in the mag as quick as can be. I wonder if one could do the same thing with the M1 clip...hmmmm

dave3006
March 15, 2004, 01:07 AM
Here are my thoughts on the quest for the biggest magazine...

First, if you are not behind cover when the shooting starts, you should be getting there as your first and only priority. You can't shoot fast enough, long enough, or accurate enough to make you bullet proof. SURVIVE FIRST, WIN SECOND.

Now that you are behind cover, you can shoot and reload (the Garand reloads faster than any box mag fed rifle) at your convenience. People do not charge your position because you are taking a second to reload. Capacity is mostly a non issue. If you are outnumbered, and your bad guys know what they are doing, you will lose no matter what gun you have. They will pin down your position and flank you. So, bring plenty of friends to your next firefight if you want to live. Don't stress about the type of rifle. Almost all of them will work.

Dr.Rob
March 15, 2004, 04:34 AM
Paint it black and add a nomex sling.

A Garand is pretty darn tactical as it is.

pwrtool45
March 15, 2004, 09:11 AM
dave3006 said
...

And the congregation said hallelujah!

Verily. Individuals use defensive tactics. Divisions use offensive tactics. This is in place not because of some artificial necessity, but because any one man who is set upon by "5 or 6 pissed off militant fundamental muslims with AK 47s" should indeed feel very disadvantaged, regardless of the rifle he or she is carrying. A 40-round magazine in a tricked out AR-15 won't help. Close air support will. Being outnumbered 6 to 1 isn't something that can be rectified by anything less than 7 or more pissed off guys armed with AK 47s on your side, and even then you're still not bulletproof.

As I've said many times, fighting multiple opponents who are armed as well or better than you are is a recipe for disaster. A good fighter increases his chances of coming out on top, it's true, but those chances still approach zero. What's the saying..."A superior fighter uses his superior judgement to avoid situations that require use ofhis superior skill." Yeah, that's the one. If you want to survive, get outta dodge.

DMK
March 15, 2004, 10:22 AM
Now that you are behind cover, you can shoot and reload (the Garand reloads faster than any box mag fed rifle) at your convenience. People do not charge your position because you are taking a second to reload. Capacity is mostly a non issue. Good points! Also keep in mind that rifles like the M14, FAL, M-16 and the AK with a 20 or 30 round mag all had a higher rate of fire (full auto capability) where semi-auto only guns like the SKS and Garand have been successfully fielded with capacities of 10 round or less.

The only thing about the 8round clips, is when I'm watching the History channel, and it shows 5 or 6 pissed off militant fundamental muslims with AK 47s, which have what look to be 30 round magazines, I feel, well, a wee bit disadvantaged. You're not at a disadvantage because they have bigger mags. You are at a disadvantage because they have full auto and you don't (and because they outnumber you 5 or 6 to one). I'm no warrior, but it's my understanding that this can be overcome with proper training, good fire dicipline and excellent marksmanship. I understand that U.S. Army Rangers are trained to use semi-auto fire almost exclusively to be more effective with every round they fire. It also enables them to travel light.

mrmeangenes
March 15, 2004, 10:38 AM
If you're concerned about carrying extra clips,the very basic WW2/Korean War cartridge belt would do nicely. If you scout around a bit,you might be able to locate bandoliers (or modern replicas) designed to hold extra clips.

The old M1 is a VERY formidable tactical weapon,and,during the Korean conflict ,held its own very nicely against the AK-47, the burp guns,etc. carried by the North Koreans and Chinese.The M1 could reach out and touch someone whose rounds were falling short of your position.

Question: You,uh...expecting some disturbances in your area ?

:uhoh:

Skunkabilly
March 15, 2004, 11:22 AM
That Beretta Garand is so cute!!! :cool:

dave3006
March 15, 2004, 12:07 PM
My earnest prayer is that my bad guy will show up with a fully automatic AK-47. Oh please let that happen. I will be behind cover and as soon as he is done spraying (and not hitting anything) the neighborhood, I will drop him with one well placed shot.

A full auto gun has some value at near contact distance and as a way to keep your opponents head down while you move to cover. Besides that, it encourages bad marksmanship from 99% of the users.

Andrew Wyatt
March 15, 2004, 01:06 PM
as for better LBE, you could probably get sotech or tactical tailor to make m-1 garand clip pouches with MOLLE backing.

then you could use whatever high speed low drag LBE you wanted.

Baba Louie
March 15, 2004, 01:12 PM
You're not at a disadvantage because they have bigger mags. You are at a disadvantage because they have full auto and you don't (and because they outnumber you 5 or 6 to one). I'm no warrior, but it's my understanding that this can be overcome with proper training, good fire dicipline and excellent marksmanship.

http://www.grunts.net/legends/legends.html

A bolt action didn't hinder a Concientious Objector from machine gun nests waaaay back when, nor did the M1 seem to be any kind of block to a handsome, small, fired up Texan...

Hmmmmm, what they both had in common (besides military training) was the simple fact that both were American Riflemen who put meat on their family table as a youngster, Knew adversity and it appears, didn't think about living past the moment as long as their buddies didn't die due to their inaction. I think their shooting skills were a given (something we all should work on) as was their situational awareness.

A single man on the OFFENSE with a rifle in hand can be a fearsome thing, or so I read. But they are (at least these two) the exception.

Cosmoline
March 15, 2004, 02:20 PM
Don't mess up a Garand, whatever you do! They are a sacred part of our history. The solution is as easy as kiss my hand--pick up a fully tactical M1A.

Frohickey
March 15, 2004, 02:25 PM
Is it possible to be tactical with a toploading 8 round capacity rifle? ;)

Nightcrawler
March 15, 2004, 03:01 PM
Don't mess up a Garand.

Buy a Springfield Armory new manufactured Garand and do you thing to that. That way it's not a piece of history you're tacticalizing.

MrAcheson
March 15, 2004, 03:26 PM
Is it possible to be tactical with a toploading 8 round capacity rifle?

Yup. I would love to see someone come up with a "super scout" garand. Use a "tanker" length garand in .308 winchester for handiness. Put on a forward scout scope and a lightweight fiberglass stock. The forward scout scope just asks to be on a clip-fed top-loader.

I won't pay custom prices to build one, but I would buy one in a minute.

dave3006
March 15, 2004, 03:55 PM
Tactical is what you do, not what you own.

I am coming to the opinion that the gun makes very little difference. If all of us spent a fraction of the time developing our skills as we do pondering the superiority of the latest firearm fad, we would all be Delta operators. But, I guess that takes discipline and sacrifice. Buying things and posting is so much easier. And, we don't have to sweat. Just plop down the plastic...

Now, if I just buy that new tactical uber carbine, I will really be cool...

DMK
March 15, 2004, 05:24 PM
tac·ti·cal adj.

1. Of, relating to, or using tactics.

2.
a. Of, relating to, used in, or involving military or naval operations that are smaller, closer to base, and of less long-term significance than strategic operations.
b. Carried out in support of military or naval operations: tactical bombing.

3. Characterized by adroitness, ingenuity, or skill.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Tactical

Nothing about fancy hardware here.

pwrtool45
March 15, 2004, 05:38 PM
tac·ti·cal adj.

1. Of, relating to, or using tactics.

2.
a. Of, relating to, used in, or involving military or naval operations that are smaller, closer to base, and of less long-term significance than strategic operations.
b. Carried out in support of military or naval operations: tactical bombing.

3. Characterized by adroitness, ingenuity, or skill.

...
Also see "Skunkabilly"
:D

Skunkabilly
March 15, 2004, 06:46 PM
tactical = Skunkabilly ...only when in conjunction with 'poser' :D

http://www.skunkabilly.com/images/tactical/tactical_poser.jpg

Poodleshooter
March 15, 2004, 06:49 PM
Very "metrotactical" there! :D

Frohickey
March 15, 2004, 07:17 PM
What?!!! :what:

No knee protectors? No balaclava?

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 07:43 PM
An Israel firm makes bullpup M1 conversions.

dave3006
March 15, 2004, 07:49 PM
An M1 Garand bullpup! I have to see that. Do you have a link?

LeonCarr
March 15, 2004, 07:50 PM
Mr. Buckskinner,

You called me a Texan, and it is true. Thank you for the compliment :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 07:53 PM
Actually, an M-1 carbine bull-pup conversion.

http://www.geocities.com/psiworld/hezism1.html

http://www.advancedcombat.com/images1/sm-1300.png

Archie
March 15, 2004, 08:01 PM
an M14 (M1A?) type gas system, and a fixed or semi-fixed 10 round magazine?

Load with stripper clips. Takes two strippers to fully load, or can be topped off with loose ammo.

Now, if we're doing a complete re-design... The same rifle, except smaller in scale, and chambered for either 7.62x39 or .30 Remington, which is a rimless .30-30. My choice would be .35 Remington for a mid-sized, short ranged rifle (250 yards and in.)

Some sort of short range scope or red dot with iron sights as back up.

Buckskinner
March 16, 2004, 02:01 AM
alrighty then...

Starting at "tactical", I know how overused this word has become in our little world of shooting enthusiasts. When I think tactical, I think "hand on efficiency". So yes, by definition, "adroitness, ingenuity and skill". That is, I wish to adroitly carry, load, aim and shoot my M1 quickly in many conditions, using 2004 ingenuity and the skills I practice to hone. So my "modernized" M1, may have the scout rail and a Cmore sight or some other type of sight, maybe detachable but zero repeatable, with tritium front post, and something on the rear peep. I may sling it with the Ching type sling, or keep my Turner leather on it...I will sew up some cool pouches and affix them to my LB gear...

No I don't live on a ranch in southern Texas or AZ. And I'm not expecting the shoppers to get out of hand at the local Piggly Wiggly. But if I have a tool, I should know how to use it. A modern day "minute man" if you will. I used to display my flintlock with powder horn and possibles bag, like the well prepared American of yesteryear. Why wouldn't I prepare the same kit for today?

In the last months of 2001, most people here were contemplating the same question, I'd wager. Now, perhaps, even we who should be most prepared for any violent eventuality against our tranquil homes are slightly (or very) numbed again by our daily existence. Yet around the world, people who despise our way of life plot to end it. Will I ever be called upon by my local, state or federal govt. to provide "homeland security"? Probably not. But closer to home, if some decide to test my mettle, I, like the man who might have carried my M1 before me (it is a rebuilt Winchester), will not back down.

Hoo boy. Something about hefting my M1 gets my dander up. That, and watching the Pianist, where I was jumping off the couch yelling "fight back!"...And explaining to my wife that was exactly why my M1's are so damned special...they have a special knack of throwing off oppression when in the right hands...

stiletto raggio
April 12, 2004, 03:58 PM
If anyone here is still looking for a BM59 (Beretta-ized Garand) and doesn't want to pay 4 G's, here is an option:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976454159.htm

MLC
April 12, 2004, 05:33 PM
Would a grenadiers load bearing vest work suitably for the en bloc clips?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/1277/BJR-546.jpg
http://www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/080891.jpg
http://www.airsoftarms.com/showpic.php?ImageID=624

cookhj
April 12, 2004, 05:38 PM
i don't know if there's anyone that still does it, but i remember a few years ago seeing an ad for a guy that would convert garands to use BAR mags. if you want to be more "tactical," you might try to find this guy and see if he'll do it for you.

Nightcrawler
April 12, 2004, 05:44 PM
FMCO (http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/008.html) use to make ALICE compatible pouches that held 12 enbloc clips. They don't list them anymore, but I'm sure they will still make some if you order them. Additionally, you can get these put on a vest.

MLC
April 12, 2004, 05:49 PM
Good call Nightcrawler.
It is still listed:
http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/images1/CLBV010.JPG

riverdog
April 12, 2004, 06:35 PM
If you would like a Garand with real punch go here (http://www.mccann.shop-utopia.com/rifles/garand/magnum/magnum.html) ;)

Buckskinner
April 13, 2004, 01:56 AM
Thanks gents. That's exactly what I was looking for....

The more I shoot my M1, the more used to the battle sight I get. Scopes may be handy in low light sitiations, but there's nothing wrong with those sights as long as I can see 'em.

George Hill
April 13, 2004, 02:09 AM
Look at the history books... I get the feeling that the Garand was tactical enough as it is. I don't see any need to change it.
Get an M1A SOCOM if you want a "Tactical" rifle.

Buckskinner
April 13, 2004, 02:34 AM
:rolleyes:

artherd
April 13, 2004, 04:02 AM
Synthetic stock, EOTech mount. Sling and bipod optional. Flash hider is good.

Other than that, keep it well lubed and ready to rock. the '06 is a great round. My semiauto is in .30-06 as well.

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