Conversion to auto fallacy or truth


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browneu
March 25, 2013, 01:05 PM
I've heard several anti-gun activists state that it's easy to a semi-auto into a full auto weapon. However, people choose not to do it because of NFA. (I believe they mean the criminal element when they see people.) The antis use this as an example of how gun laws work.

I always thought it would be harder for the conversion than what people think. Is this another red herring given by the opposition?

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1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 01:07 PM
Depends on the weapon. Some are pretty easy. You may not get a SAFE or RELIABLE full auto using the shade-tree methods, but it's doable. I wouldn't do it, of course.

Even so... full-autos aren't particularly accurate, as anyone who has shot full-autos will tell you. If you want to actually hit something, you go semi-auto. Particularly if we're talking about "regular" rifles in full auto (not a heavy belt fed machine gun or something).

mljdeckard
March 25, 2013, 01:10 PM
It's not true. They say things like; "All you have to do is file the firing pin down."

As I understand it, there used to be models of guns like the Mac-10 that fired from the open bolt and could be converted fairly easliy, but all guns currently manufactured are very difficult to convert if possible at all. It is easier to cut an illegal FA AR receiver than it is to try to convert a legal one.

USAF_Vet
March 25, 2013, 01:11 PM
Open bolt, semi auto guns were fairly simple to convert to full auto. That's us why their manufacture is restricted. Your AK or AR cannot be easily converted to full auto.

ATF closed that door decades ago. There are no commonly available semi auto guns of any sort that can be readily converted to fully automatic. This is just another lie by the anti gun left. The only difference between this lie and most of their others is that this lie was true, a few decades ago.

Tommygunn
March 25, 2013, 01:17 PM
It depends upon the particular gun.
In some guns, in fact, a simple broken part or an accumulation of dirt may induce a malfunction produced FA episode.
It also depends on how smart the end user is. John Moses Browning took a 1873 Winchester, hit it with a hammer, said a prayer, and SHAZAM it was full auto. No, seriously he was a brilliant guy and knew how to do it right.
Your average Joe probably wouldn't know how, and of course now with so many semi autos, no one would start with a repeater.
This type of thing is very illegal. While I don't agree with these laws people get in serious trouble when they tinker. Due to an over eager BATF agency, even people with "broken" guns that go FA have wound up in trouble.
DON'T DO IT.

Why people don't do it????
I think a lot of people are really not all that interested in FA guns. They're expensive to feed. People with $$$ can afford the tax stamps and the guns.
The antigunners may be right to some extent that honest people don't because they realize it is against the law.
But it's said that locks only keep away honest people.
A criminal -- say a gang member or a drug courier, one who is truly ruthless, is not going to care about any law. He will acquire what he wants. He may not have the knowledge to tamper with a semi and make it FA but that only means he gets the FA on the black market.
I'm sure there are tinkerers out there who will risk ATF raids. Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians come to mind.
But yeah .... laws work -- for the honest people.

Mayvik
March 25, 2013, 01:18 PM
I guess it depends on your definition of "easy" and if you're trying to make a rate-controlled select fire or just a mag-dumping bullet-hose. You can convert almost any semi to uncontrolled F/A by fixing the firing pin forward, but that's really a "malfunction" and not a design feature... It's not particularly hard on common platforms with the knowledge/plans, the no-no parts and simple tooling (like a hand drill/dremel for an AK)

tarosean
March 25, 2013, 01:21 PM
ATF closed that door decades ago. There are no commonly available semi auto guns of any sort that can be readily converted to fully automatic. This is just another lie by the anti gun left. The only difference between this lie and most of their others is that this lie was true, a few decades ago.

Remember Bank of America shoot out? Converted AK's.
A lightning link is little more than a flat piece of metal to convert any AR to FA.. I would think almost any semi auto could be converted with some knowledge.. Safe and reliable, not so much. But that's not the question.

JRH6856
March 25, 2013, 01:29 PM
Great answers. A pretty even mix of "yes","no",and"maybe". :rolleyes:

razorback2003
March 25, 2013, 01:31 PM
The few criminals that use full auto guns will buy the real thing on the black market, not convert a gun.

If a criminal has a lot of money, he can probably get real full auto AK's, G3's, and M16's from Mexico that are used down there in the drug wars. People already are crossing the border illegally with drugs and it wouldn't surprise me if people brought over military guns too.

AlexanderA
March 25, 2013, 01:36 PM
I've heard several anti-gun activists state that it's easy to convert a semi-auto into a full auto weapon.

First of all, it isn't that easy. The ATF polices these things, and if a gun is found to be easy to convert, it gets pulled off the market. The exact parameters of convertibility have been established for decades, ever since the first semi AR-15's were approved for civilian sale.

Secondly, the activists who are saying this are just showing their ignorance of the process. They're just repeating their internally-generated talking points.

Lastly, this is playing into the public's demonization of full auto weapons. In reality, full auto weapons (as used in the military) have a fairly limited tactical use. If the object is to kill the maximum number of people at close range, semiautomatic fire is probably more effective.

MErl
March 25, 2013, 01:42 PM
the gun of choice for criminals is still the handgun. Not designed with FA initially, those are much harder to convert.

Your AR & AK, if you know what to do, you can do it with a drill & dremel (and the xtra pieces). That is probably where the "it is easy to convert" comes from.

It is another bad comparison which attacks rifles when they aren't the problem.

cfullgraf
March 25, 2013, 01:57 PM
A bit off topic, or diverted, if a gun ban were enacted, I believe there would be a rise in full auto guns used in crimes.

A ban would create a black market and full auto guns would then become marketable for the dealers. Presently, there are too many sources of semi-auto guns other than the black market so the full auto guns are too expensive for the common criminal and gang banger.

Just capitalism at work at its best.

Except for gang wars, the chance of a criminal encountering an armed adversary is probably low.

WardenWolf
March 25, 2013, 01:59 PM
Keep in mind that any jury-rigged full-auto would either be a runaway mag dump or still be uncontrollable due to the absence of any rate reducer; it would cycle as fast as the bolt carrier can physically go. Even the AK normally has a rate reducer. It's illegal as hell and completely impractical.

ol' scratch
March 25, 2013, 02:12 PM
Remember Bank of America shoot out? Converted AK's.
A lightning link is little more than a flat piece of metal to convert any AR to FA.. I would think almost any semi auto could be converted with some knowledge.. Safe and reliable, not so much. But that's not the question.
This is not true. Lightning links are not the only parts needed. You need a bolt that is specifically designed to work with the lightning link. They are near imposible to find. There are only 500 transferable lightning links in the US.

MachIVshooter
March 25, 2013, 02:14 PM
I guess it depends on your definition of "easy" and if you're trying to make a rate-controlled select fire or just a mag-dumping bullet-hose.

This.

A lot of people have filed down, removed or otherwise restrained from function the secondary sear, which will cause the gun to slam fire. On a blowback gun, this can work fairly well (depending on the exact set-up of hammer and firing pin). On a short recoil or gas operated gun, it will almost certainly turn it into a single shot. Most modern firearms have floating firing pins that depend on inertia to strike the primer with sufficient force; the hammer following the bolt home will not provide enough of said force.

As mentioned, the open bolt guns were nixed from title 1 manufacture some time ago, because they really were converted very easily by you average idiot with a one-page picture tutorial.

Converting most anything else would require new parts and receiver modification, and exact tolerances. Not exactly difficult if you're reasonable skilled with metalworking, but also not something your average street thug is capable of. In simplest form, it would involve making a piece that releases the secondary sear when the bolt full closes; this is how the lightning link works. It's a two-piece mechanism that sits between the upper & lower receivers, and requires only minor modification of the rear receiver pin block and bolt carrier:

http://www.atf.gov/graphics/firearms/weapons/fullsize/conversion-part-lightning-link.jpg

http://quarterbore.com/nfa/ar10_ll/ar15-ar10-ll-02.jpg

But the lightning link and most drop-in auto sears do not allow select fire; they are full auto only. true select fire requires several parts, and also milling material out of and/or drilling additional holes in the receivers. This is why "3rd hole" AK receivers are considered MGs, even if they lack the internal parts.

taliv
March 25, 2013, 02:23 PM
easy for a machinist? very
easy for some guy who flips burgers and owns a dremel and a hammer? not so much

as was said above, there is a big difference in difficulty between modifying a gun to make a dangerously unpredictable bullet hose vs modifying it to make it more useful than it was previously.

if you're making a gun from scratch, it's a lot easier to make an open bolt full auto than a closed bolt semi.

USAF_Vet
March 25, 2013, 02:32 PM
Full auto slam fire is easier to accomplish than a controlled select fire conversion.

Dirt in the firing pin on an SKS can cause accidental full auto. Welding it forward does the same thing. But is uncontrolled full auto that takes the trigger, hammer and sear out of the equation.

You can do the same thing by removing the sear spring on a Hi Point pistol (and possibly carbine).

But uncontrolled slam fire full auto is simple pointless in 99% of shooting situations.

browneu
March 25, 2013, 03:51 PM
Its interesting. I knew of certain ways that would render the gun uncontrollable. I had a 1911 break and emptied the entire magazine before I realized what happened. Very scary and fixed by the manufacturer. It has a pony on the slide.

The question comes from someone debating John Lott. Lott stated that a magazine ban would be inefective because the magazine is the easiest part to make since its a box with a spring. He also mentioned the ability of 3D printers to make one. (I thought to myself how reliable is the magazine but reliability never came up.)

Lott's opponent, can't remember his name, stated it's easy to make a gun into full auto but no one does it because of NFA. That's where he mentioned how gun laws work. (This isn't the first time I heard this.)

I was surprised Lott didn't counter this as a red herring which led to my question here. I doubted my own knowledge since Lott didn't counter something so obvious.

For us gun enthusiasts, we know how a gun operates and the feasibility of making modifications. We also know the weak points of a firearm's reliability. However, the fence sitter or the anti doesn't have this knowledge and statements like Lott's opponent seem reasonable especially if the gun expert doesn't dismiss it.

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FourTeeFive
March 25, 2013, 03:59 PM
True select-fire conversion is not "easy" with any closed-bolt gun, at least for those who aren't experienced gunsmiths/machinists. There are certainly kits to make it easier but you have to go SOT2 to make it legal.

The Glock "fun switch" and similar parts are available to those who want to go that route:

http://www.jncmanufacturing.com/#!__glock-kits

I personally don't see any practical use for these without a shoulder stock.

1KPerDay
March 25, 2013, 04:54 PM
Great answers. A pretty even mix of "yes","no",and"maybe". :rolleyes:
Don't forget the holier-than-thou eyeroll post. ;)

Bubbles
March 25, 2013, 05:10 PM
Great answers. A pretty even mix of "yes","no",and"maybe".
The answer varies based on the make/model of the firearm being converted. With some it would be easier to start from scratch, others we've done with less than $1 in parts from a hardware store, with the conversion device registered on F2.

Lott's opponent, can't remember his name, stated it's easy to make a gun into full auto...
See above.

...but no one does it because of NFA. That's where he mentioned how gun laws work.
There are a myriad of reasons why "no one does it". The law-abiding don't because of NFA. The criminals don't because they buy whatever is available on the street, and that's typically not NFA. Tactically, the street thug won't want a machine pistol as a gun that empties itself in seconds and then becomes a rock isn't useful.

AK103K
March 25, 2013, 06:33 PM
I've heard several anti-gun activists state that it's easy to a semi-auto into a full auto weapon.
I think whats more telling is, the way they constantly portray anything that "looks" like it could be a machine gun, as being one. No messing with it at all, just its looks make it so.

Whats even more annoying to me is, those who are supposed to be on our side and speaking for us, usually dont even bother to try and correct the BS thats being spewed. They just clam up and shrug.

Even so... full-autos aren't particularly accurate, as anyone who has shot full-autos will tell you. If you want to actually hit something, you go semi-auto.
Its not that the full autos arent accurate, more that the person using it doesnt know how to shoot it. The other issue is knowing when its use is desirable/effective.

The big problem with FA guns is, they have more or less become a rarity in general circulation, and many, if not most gun owners have very little experience with them. My kids had more trigger time on them at 8 than most adults I let shoot mine. A person with just minimal training, can be a very serious threat, someone who has no idea, can be too, but not likely the person he was trying to shoot.

As I understand it, there used to be models of guns like the Mac-10 that fired from the open bolt and could be converted fairly easliy, but all guns currently manufactured are very difficult to convert if possible at all.
Back in the late 80's, early 90's, they were selling all sorts of open bolt parts kits (STEN's, MP40's, etc) that were easily restored to full function, with something as simple as a piece of muffler tube, a dremel, and little handiness. They used to sell tubes with the templates attached, and all you had to do was cut on the dotted lines.

Dont forget all the HK kits that were being sold as well. I was always amazed at how they didnt ban the HK's outright, as they are very easy to convert, and they were selling G3 kits like there was no tomorrow.

If you consider how many of each of those guns were actually in the registry, it makes you wonder what people were doing with all those kits, and where they are now. :)

MachIVshooter
March 25, 2013, 06:49 PM
Lott stated that a magazine ban would be inefective because the magazine is the easiest part to make since its a box with a spring.

It's actually not easy at all to make a reliable sheet metal magazine. I can only think of a couple mags that truly are simple boxes; nearly all of them have tricky contours and indents that require more than a $500 sheet metal break to produce. The followers are tricky, too. I've machined them from ABS plastic, and it was a lot of trial and error to make one work correctly.

For instance, to make an AR mag, you'd really need to do it in four pieces to get the contour, and then would have to weld in strips of steel to make the thinner portion of the inside, which is normally done with stamped channels.

Perhaps I'll build an AR mag one evening and detail the process. It's certainly doable, but my guess is I'll have 4+ hours into an ugly magazine that will require several minor modifications to work reliably. And I have a vertical mill, acetylene torch, welders and a host of other tools, as well as years of metal fabrication and tinkering experience

He also mentioned the ability of 3D printers to make one.

That technology is getting there, but as of right now, the materials required for a decently durable mag need an expensive commercial grade printer to be used.

Lott's opponent, can't remember his name, stated it's easy to make a gun into full auto but no one does it because of NFA. That's where he mentioned how gun laws work.

NFA works in regards to MGs because it was done so long ago, and there were relatively few machine guns in circulation at the time. Today, there are about 174,000 transferable machine guns. Magazines, on the other hand, literally number in the hundreds of millions. A magazine ban would eventually be effective to a large degree, but it will take generations. Neither you nor I, and most likely not even our great grand children, would see the day when standard capacity magazines are as hard to come by as machine guns.

Furthermore, if this guy and others with his argument had any idea how many unregistered NFA guns are probably circulating in the black market or sitting in Billy Joe Bob's cellar, they'd poop themselves. I can't even recall how many people I've talked to who freely admitted to having a sawed off shotgun, even though they knew it was illegal. Why they confided in someone they barely knew I don't understand, but they did. My guess is that not one of them will ever be caught, because they are probably otherwise law abiding people who don't show up on the radar. I'm sure there are literally millions out there with unregistered SBRs, SBSs, AOWs and DDs. They even turn up on youtube at times, seemingly by people who may not realize they're violating the law. I know there channels through which I and most other people could acquire unregistered machine guns fairly quickly if we wanted and had the cash (brother of a friend of friend of an acquaintance in a motorcycle gang kind of thing). The stuff is out there.

Most people just don't mess with MGs because legal ones are prohibitively expensive, illegal ones carry a hefty punishment, and they really aren't particularly useful in a normal person's life for anything other than wasting ammo. People who want to get that fix every now and then spend a couple hundred bucks at the MG shoot renting, and then go back to practical semi-autos.

Averageman
March 25, 2013, 07:25 PM
If I was asked this by an anti gunner, I could certainly ask them to bring their gun; show them to my machine shop and let them have at it, I will be calling the BATFE, but you go right ahead......I don't think however in this case I would have many takers.
You see it isn't a logical responce this anti gunner has given you, it is a quip. It doesn't have to make sense and they dont have to exactly know how to accomplish this task. They have heard it used before and they want to see how it fits and if it makes them look like the smartest guy in the room.

My responce would be one of two.
1) If you want a full auto weapon simply save the money, do your paperwork and go buy one.
2) If your purpose is to do some massive sort of mayhem with a full auto weapon, why dont you just go down to WalMart and buy enough Chemicals legally to make your own Blister Agent? That way you can do some wholesale mayhem on a bigger level than you ever could with a gun.

Either way it isnt the gun, nor is it the chemicals. These are objects that can be used for good or evil purposes. If you cannot see the good purposes of guns or chemical, then you cannot see the good in mankind. If you cannot see the good in mankind, perhaps you need some counseling?

But again, why would you someone who is such a pacifist that they not only dont want a gun, they dont want ME to have a gun, need such knowledge?
Because they are a nutbag!

Kiln
March 26, 2013, 02:12 AM
You can convert one to full auto with a paper clip, a shoulder thing that goes up, and by filing down the firing pin. -every liberal politician ever

JRH6856
March 26, 2013, 02:55 AM
I filed down the firing pin on one of my guns and it would only fire imploding bullets.

kwguy
March 26, 2013, 04:40 AM
Those anti's are way off base anyway. Who cares how easy it is to make a full auto? It's illegal. And, as already mentioned, the BATF police the weapons that are 'easily' converted anyway. That's why they freaked out about 3d printers and AR-15's. Because it's 'easy' now. It doesn't matter, it's still illegal (to make and SELL without the proper stuff). Heck, it's easy with a cnc mill too.

It's easy to speed illegally in a car, because it's 'readily convertible' as well. Just step on the gas. A hammer is 'readily convertible' too, just hit someone with it. They are just trying to induce fear, and use ignorance, to further their agenda.

Deanimator
March 26, 2013, 06:40 AM
You can convert a Lee Enfield #1MkIII to full auto. It's been done.

I always tell people who've fallen for this anti-gun "fable", "Machineguns are like car engines. They have timing requirements. If your car's engine is out of time, it runs rough or not at all. If your machinegun is out of time, it fires out of battery (with the action open) and injures or kills you."

2@low8
March 26, 2013, 02:49 PM
kwguy - “…the BATF police the weapons that are 'easily' converted anyway.”

I purchased a firearm prior to the BATF deciding that it was too easily converted to full auto from an FFL and I filled out a 4473 about 30 years ago.

With 7 residence changes in 3 different states, how is the BATF “policing” this purchase?

barnbwt
March 27, 2013, 12:50 AM
^ By trolling the internet boards :D

The ATF has near despotic authority to determine what they feel is "easily convertable" (they almost got away with defining 8 manhours in their full-service shop as "easily convertable") and have used it to create very specific definitions (which can and do change at their whim) which gun builders use when making or remanufacturing semiautos. Gun makers must seek opinions (written, though not usually legally binding) from the ATF Technical Branch (the most reputable and competent sector of the ATF, from what I've been told) which they follow to ensure their gun build is legally constructed as a non-convertable semi-auto in the eyes of the ATF, so as to avoid possible prosecution (though the ATF ruling can still always be changed). Failure to do so opens you (and your customers) up to stuff like having all your Airsoft guns confiscated as being "readily convertable," and issuing recalls when your open-bolt SMGs are suddenly defined as machine guns.

The big one is that the gun must fire from a closed bolt, which means major mods to simple slam-fire machine pistols like Suomis and the like so they have actual firing pins and hammers. The second is to protect oneself from circumstantial illegal possession charges ("constructive possession" as it's known) by making the major parts of the gun non-inter-changeable with the illegal components. In the case of the Suomi, the bolt diameter is usually changed so that a full-auto bolt cannot simply be dropped in, and the trigger-group pocket is changed so standard FA parts can't fit. Also on that platform, the new (full legal length) barrel and shroud are turned to a different diameter so it cannot be quick-changed with an illegal short milsurp barrel. Which is a lot of work considering a hacksaw can accomplish the same thing in seconds, but is not considered "illegal possession of an SBR" :rolleyes:

If it seems confusing, you need to read 1984 and Catch 22, then spend an evening watching Brazil--it'll all become clear, surely as black is white. Guns are mechanically the same as internal combustion engines. We have to build them so it is impossible for them to fire more than one cylinder, while still operating on the exact same mechanical principle as a dragster's. It is logically absurd to ban full-auto but not semi.

TCB

Prince Yamato
March 27, 2013, 02:10 PM
I think the 1000 lb gorilla in the room that nobody wants to bring up is, "Even if the guns in question were machine guns, what's the big deal about law-abiding citizens owning them?"

JRH6856
March 27, 2013, 02:20 PM
I think the 1000 lb gorilla in the room that nobody wants to bring up is, "Even if the guns in question were machine guns, what's the big deal about law-abiding citizens owning them?"

They're scary. :eek:

AK103K
March 27, 2013, 02:26 PM
I think the 1000 lb gorilla in the room that nobody wants to bring up is, "Even if the guns in question were machine guns, what's the big deal about law-abiding citizens owning them?"
Absolutely nothing.

In fact, if you believe the Constitution is the law of the land, according to the Bill of Rights, as part of a well regulated militia, you should have one in your house.

Oklacoyotekiller
March 27, 2013, 03:02 PM
There have been more than a few saying you can turn an ar full auto buy sliding in the collapsable buttstock. This is the kind of missinformation that unknowing people eat up and spread as fact.

browneu
March 27, 2013, 07:31 PM
There have been more than a few saying you can turn an ar full auto buy sliding in the collapsable buttstock. This is the kind of missinformation that unknowing people eat up and spread as fact.

Wow.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

Carl N. Brown
March 27, 2013, 08:05 PM
In the infamous ATF Gunwalking Scandal, the straw buyers Tucson and Phoenix ATF let walk with guns were quite open with confidential informants that they were taking them to a Tijuana workshop to have them converted to full auto.

Anti-gunners like to use the low figures of legal registered machineguns used in crime, but legally registered machineguns are largely in the hands of rich gun collectors, not likely to be used in crime.

Figures on illegal unregistered machine guns are harder to come by. The FBI UCR murder stats break down weapon by type show:
Murder in the United States - 2011
12,664 Total
68% 8,583 Firearm related
Of firearm homicides:
72% 6,220 Handguns
4% 323 Rifles
4% 356 Shotguns
20% 1,700 Unspecified

kwguy
March 28, 2013, 12:48 AM
'how is the BATF “policing” this purchase?'

That was said with a little sarcasm. The whole 'readily convertible' thing is plain stupid. Who cares if it's easily converted? So that means any machine that is easily able to 'do harm' needs to be illegal? Dumb. Just like those pistol grips that allow you to spray bullets from the hip, like Rambo, along with that shoulder thing that goes up. Those things should be illegal too.:rolleyes:.

And of course, as was brought up here already, the fact is that law abiding citizens should be able to have machine guns anyway. But oh yeah, those things are SCARY :eek:.

JRH6856
March 28, 2013, 01:16 AM
'how is the BATF “policing” this purchase?'

That was said with a little sarcasm. The whole 'readily convertible' thing is plain stupid. Who cares if it's easily converted? So that means any machine that is easily able to 'do harm' needs to be illegal? Dumb. Just like those pistol grips that allow you to spray bullets from the hip, like Rambo, along with that shoulder thing that goes up. Those things should be illegal too.:rolleyes:.

And of course, as was brought up here already, the fact is that law abiding citizens should be able to have machine guns anyway. But oh yeah, those things are SCARY :eek:.
And they are especially scary when they are spraying imploding bullets. :what:

r1derbike
March 28, 2013, 01:52 AM
Why would somebody take a perfectly legal semi-automatic AR (called Assault Rifle by the ignorant, uninformed leftists) and destroy its function?

So, you ruined the rifle by doing some stupid things and now it won't work. I'll give you 5 bucks for it, top offer.

Oklacoyotekiller
March 28, 2013, 12:00 PM
Have shot full auto m16. Fun for first 2 mags. Then realized you cant hit crap on full auto. Just waste a bunch of ammo

AK103K
March 28, 2013, 12:08 PM
They are fun, no matter how many mags, and you usually never have enough. :)

Once you learn the technique (usually learned in one or two mags), hitting things isnt a problem, even with full mag dumps.

barnbwt
March 29, 2013, 10:54 PM
taking them to a Tijuana workshop to have them converted to full auto
Goons in the US don't usually like the FA guns because they're even harder to hit stuff with when you aren't ever able to practice without running away from cops after five minutes :D. Ammo costs aside, drive-bys and stuff have been committed with converted full autos, but the goal there is usually to just unload a gun's whole mag (however long that "volley" takes) and get the heck out of Dodge. Semi or full is close enough in that regard. And semi is far easier to use for assassinations and defense from other goons. Potentially draws less attention, too.

But, when your criminal syndicate can operate with impunity due to a weak or corrupt police system...well, the psychological terror evoked by intimidating full auto weapons becomes very useful. I can see why the cartels would cherish such things, as it makes every act of theirs that much more of a warning to those who would stand up to them.

Again, though, conversion to full auto is by definition "not easy" if the gun being converted was legal to start with. While the validity of that definition is debatable, the legality is not. Hell, that one guy made a "registered machinegun" from a shoelace, for heaven's sake :rolleyes:

TCB

joeschmoe
March 29, 2013, 11:24 PM
What prevents you from counterfeiting a million dollars on a printer at home? It's not as easy as it sounds and fear of 10 years in federal prison. MG's are the same.

Certaindeaf
March 29, 2013, 11:42 PM
You can make a molotov cocktail with a bottle of whiskey but that wouldn't be too smart.

Speedgoat
March 29, 2013, 11:44 PM
It's easy to change a 396 Chevy to a 454 Chevy motor if you know how to work on engines too...

Certaindeaf
March 29, 2013, 11:46 PM
What prevents you from counterfeiting a million dollars on a printer at home? It's not as easy as it sounds and fear of 10 years in federal prison. MG's are the same.
Around ten years ago some Slavic country counterfeited many billions of dollars of bearer bonds, each with like a denomination of a half mil. they got caught just by a fluke/accident

Millwright
March 30, 2013, 12:13 AM
Why "convert" ?

"Rolling Your Own" open bolt sub-gun isn't all that difficult for anyone with even modest manual skills. Can you dick with any semi-auto to make it "automatic" ? Sure ! But the "downside" (in terms of reliability and utility) generally out weighs the rpm increase.

IOW, a trained trigger finger is a far better "machine gun" than some cobbled parts. Just watch Jerry Miclick ! >MW

centurion20000
March 30, 2013, 12:22 AM
A bit off topic, or diverted, if a gun ban were enacted, I believe there would be a rise in full auto guns used in crimes.
...

I agree but for different reasons. Once you make mere possession of a semi-auto weapon a felony crime, it becomes that much easier to rationalize stepping up to full auto and explosive weapons to commit crimes. After all if you are going to jail for mere possession, you might as well make it count.

The first felony is expensive, the rest of them are free. Unintended Consequences at its best.

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