How is this possible? Hole in the barrel!


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nwilliams
March 25, 2013, 11:55 PM
A customer of ours came into the shop today and brought with him a Tikka barreled action that has a very strange exit hole. The customer claimed he didn't see this hole until he got the gun home from the range and noticed it.

Sorry for the bad cell phone pics it's the best I could do while the customer was in the shop.

How is such a thing even possible? Any ideas?

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/other/IMG_0147_zps2438f678.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/other/IMG_0146_zpsa58de3c3.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/other/IMG_0143_zps270a2b55.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/other/IMG_0145_zpsc989c8ff.jpg

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pikid89
March 25, 2013, 11:58 PM
Free porting job? Modern art muzzle break? Slip of a plasma cutter?

frankenstein406
March 26, 2013, 12:00 AM
reloads or new ammo?

Jim K
March 26, 2013, 12:17 AM
It looks like however the front sight was mounted resulted in weakening the barrel at that point and it blew out. Whether the problem was due to an error at the factory or someone tried to install a new/different sight, I can't tell from the pictures.

If returning the rifle to the factory is not an option or the problem was not caused by the factory, the easy solution is to cut off and re-crown the barrel. Then, a new sight can be mounted or not, as the customer wishes.

Jim

rcmodel
March 26, 2013, 12:26 AM
I would have to assume a Tikka .300 Mag never had a front sight in the first place.

This is how it is possible.
Looks to me like it got shot with somebody's small bore varmint rifle by accident while standing in a gun rack!!

I saw a Winchester Model 52 .22 target rifle with a hole in the barrel just like that once 50 years ago.

The gunsmith who had it in a rack behind his bench shot it by accident with a .22 Hornet a customer brought in the shop loaded and squeezed of an ND while getting it out of the gun case.

Non-believers?
Look at the dent in the bottom of the bore in the bottom of the hole in photo #2.

That was made by something going in, Not coming out!.

rc

Jim K
March 26, 2013, 12:33 AM
Well, I admit I never thought of that! It would explain why the owner of the gun didn't seem to know what happened to his rifle.

The only problem is the square notch at the front of the hole, which looked to me like it was cut/milled for some kind of front sight; a stray bullet would not cut such a neat squared off notch.

Jim

nwilliams
March 26, 2013, 12:44 AM
reloads or new ammo?
The guy claimed that he was shooting factory new ammo but didn't say what brand or maybe he did and I just didn't hear.


Looks to me like it got shot with somebody's small bore varmint rifle by accident while standing in a gun rack!!

That's kinda what the general consensus at the shop after the customer left. The story the customer gave us just didn't seem to make sense. How could a round exit a barrel completely out the side!

It looks like however the front sight was mounted resulted in weakening the barrel at that point and it blew out. Whether the problem was due to an error at the factory or someone tried to install a new/different sight, I can't tell from the pictures.
The barrel never had a front sight, also the hole isn't exactly placed where the front side would be if it did have one, it's a bit off to the side.

rcmodel
March 26, 2013, 01:21 AM
The barrel never had a front sight, also the hole isn't exactly placed where the front side would be if it did have one, it's a bit off to the side. Well, there ya go then!!

I still contend that barrel was the unfortunate victim of a ND from a high-velocity varmint rifle of some kind.


There is no bore pressure or high pressure white hot gas at the muzzle end of a .30 cal barrel to burn a hole out from the inside.
Even if there was a screw hole or something there to start it with.

It got shot with Something fast & light, from the outside in, by somebody.
Plain & simple.

rc

HB
March 26, 2013, 03:25 AM
Seems to be some copper on the "entry" as well. RC nailed it I believe.

HB

natman
March 26, 2013, 04:02 AM
I tend to agree with the shot from outside theory, but FWIW, there was a recall for Sako / Tikka rifles with stainless steel barrels at one point because of defective steel. The serial number range was 419140 - 461951.

http://www.firearmsid.com/mkportal/smf/index.php?topic=10.0

JRWhit
March 26, 2013, 06:29 AM
I wouldn't think he could have shot that without noticing the blow hole effect. I'm not sure if you know the guy well, but it would seems there may be more to the story. If he shot it after, surely he would notice at a minimum a change in report or recoil. And if it happened right before he packed up and left for home then surely he would have found some sort of fragment in the barrel.
Let me get to the punch line here, does he have any small bore rifle you are aware of? If so congratulate him on a seemingly impossible shot, and wager that he couldn't do it twice. ;)

RustHunter87
March 26, 2013, 11:44 AM
"looks to me like it got shot with somebody's small bore varmint rifle by accident while standing in a gun rack!!"
That would be my guess, looks much more like a bullet hole than a barrel rupture.
Crazy:eek:

returningfire
March 26, 2013, 12:06 PM
But why would anyone want to shoot (at) a Tikka?:)
Blasphemy!

WardenWolf
March 26, 2013, 12:31 PM
I concur that it looks like it's been shot from the outside. Oh well, easy fix. Just cut it off and recrown it. As long as it's over 16 inches, he's good.

ApacheCoTodd
March 27, 2013, 12:13 AM
Regardless of whether or not it had a front sight "... he said..." or where it's indexed - now the front of the hole sure does appear to have a deliberately cut square slot start to it.

rondog
March 27, 2013, 12:30 AM
Bizarre, it is.....

toiville2feathers
March 27, 2013, 01:04 AM
It was back several years ago, about 2005, that Beretta had a recall on there stainless steel rifles because of bad steel and action and barrel failures. Your rifle may be in that group. It applied to Sako's and Beretta's. I would definitely advise you to return it to the factory.

slickracer
March 27, 2013, 06:52 AM
Sounts like there's some Tom Foolery & shenanigans going on here....he is certainly not sharing the whole story.

rodinal220
March 27, 2013, 10:42 AM
ND.yup copper around the edges of the hole,cratering.Somebody shot the rifle.

Arkansas Paul
March 27, 2013, 11:23 AM
That definitely appears to be an entry and and exit hole. It was shot. No doubt in my mind. That's pretty crappy luck though.

rcmodel
March 27, 2013, 11:37 AM
I say again:
Non-believers?
Look at the dent in the bottom of the bore in the bottom of the hole in photo #2.

That was made by something going in, Not coming out!.

rc

adelbridge
March 27, 2013, 12:02 PM
the copper on the entry is the exact same color as the copper streaks in the grooves. Was there any bore damage opposite the entry wound?

Arkansas Paul
March 27, 2013, 12:26 PM
That definitely appears to be an entry and and exit hole.

This is my comment from my first post, but looking more clearly, there only appears to be one hole. I thought I was seeing the woodgrain in photo 2 but it appears to be rifling. My bad. I still think it's a bullet hole though.

Carl N. Brown
March 27, 2013, 01:00 PM
Clarke likes to test firearms to the bursting point and has seen a few deliberate ka-booms; it would be inetresting to see his opinion.

Cosmoline
March 27, 2013, 01:55 PM
It really looks like a bullet hole to me. I wonder what's on the opposite side. Perhaps a slight indent? Bullet fragments probably fell out after that. Wild. And spooky. I've seen similar holes in rifles from WW1

rcmodel
March 27, 2013, 02:05 PM
I wonder what's on the opposite side.A matching dent in the bore I keep saying!

Second picture in the OP.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/other/IMG_0146_zpsa58de3c3.jpg

rc

Carl N. Brown
March 27, 2013, 05:58 PM
I just went out and checked my pistol swinger target (which has been cratered but not penetrated by .357 from from a carbine and a couple of 7,62x39mm. Yep, I am accepting the theory that hole in the barrel is the result of a high velocity round. Truly a rare occurrance and a puzzler.

Cosmoline
March 27, 2013, 06:06 PM
Has the fellow made any governments angry lately?

A matching dent in the bore I keep saying!

I was talking about the exterior of the barrel opposite, to see if you could detect a dimple.

Dentite
March 27, 2013, 11:55 PM
A couple considerations for those who say the barrel was shot with another rifle.

If so, where is the bullet? If the bullet didn't go through the other side, wouldn't you expect it to be lodged in the barrel? If the bullet did penetrate the barrel wouldn't you expect an exit hole, or a bulge or at least visible damage on the other side of the barrel? The second picture looks like normal rifling through the hole.

Second of all I have shot a bit of steel...mild steel, AR500, etc. While I have never shot a rifle barrel, I have shot some rebar and due to the round shape the rounds are deflected to one side or the other. It's almost impossible to hit so dead center that the round wouldn't deflect from one side or the other from a hardened steel rifle barrel.

And while rounds can keyhole, every bullet hole I've seen in steel that goes all the way through is perfectly round. That hole is not round.

Not saying I have all the answers but if in fact the rife was shot with another rifle then you have to agree that:

1. The owner is a liar (possible)
2. The bullet was somehow removed from the barrel after impact (possible but harder than lying).
3. That the stars aligned allowing a dead center hit from a rifle without deflection, and then after penetrating the first side of the barrel it stops and doesn't cause any visible damage on the opposite side of the barrel (all but impossible odds).

I don't think it's generally a good idea to disagree with rcmodel but I just think it would be nearly impossible for this to happen.

Do any of you really think you could replicate this easily? Who has an shot-out barrel that they are willing to go test? I'm serious...I would love to see someone replicate this.

I don't have all the answers as to why and how this happened...I'm just very skeptical it was shot with another rifle.

25cschaefer
March 28, 2013, 12:38 AM
I have a few old Mauser barrels and a friend with some v-max .223 rounds, next time we go out I will test this and update this thread. I don't know when but maybe this week since it's spring break and all. I think RC is right, the hole is oblong because the barrel is round and there is not bullet because it was high velocity and fragmented upon impact. I have shot 1/4" steel plate with milk jugs behind that suffered very minor damage from fragments.

Jim K
March 28, 2013, 01:09 AM
Aside from what actually caused the hole, does anyone else see what looks like two layers in there? There seems to be top layer of shiny stainless steel then a second level of darker metal, with a fairly clear dividing line between them. Is it a composite barrel of some kind or are my eyes playing tricks?

Jim

JRH6856
March 28, 2013, 01:33 AM
I noticed that too, Jim K, but I think it is just the way the light is reflecting off the edges of the hole.

ApacheCoTodd
March 28, 2013, 11:06 AM
A matching dent in the bore I keep saying!

Second picture in the OP.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/other/IMG_0146_zpsa58de3c3.jpg

rc
RC - I kep looking and I keep not seeing it in this photo, especially given the angle.

rcmodel
March 28, 2013, 11:22 AM
This dent in the opposite barrel wall:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/IMG_0146_zps3ace176d.jpg

Most of the remains of the vaporized bullet blew out through the muzzle, and if the rifle bolt was open, or opened later, the rest of it fell out through the action.

And as I mentioned in post #5, I have actually seen the exact same damage done on a Winchester Model 52 target rifle as a result of a ND in a gunsmiths shop many years ago.

rc

BBBBill
March 28, 2013, 11:35 AM
The marks around the lip of the hole appear to be the mirror image of the rifling marks that would be engraved on a fired projectile. Hard to imagine that a softer projectile could transfer those rifling marks into the harder barrel metal, but there it is.....

rcmodel
March 28, 2013, 11:57 AM
30-06 hole in 2 Pounder cannon shell at 100 yards.
It went in one side and left a very small dent inside on the other side.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/Hotchkiss2.jpg

22-250 hole in Georges head at 100 yards.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/HalfDollarShot.jpg

I imagine the stainless steel of the Tikka barrel would react similarly but differently.

rc

243winxb
March 28, 2013, 12:18 PM
Bullet Hole

natman
March 28, 2013, 02:18 PM
22-250 hole in Georges head at 100 yards.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/HalfDollarShot.jpg



That's Benjamin Franklin and that silver half dollar used to be worth about $12 before it had a hole in it. :uhoh:

rcmodel
March 28, 2013, 02:35 PM
Yep!

It is Ben isn't it.

But it was only worth .50 cents when I did it.

Thats two mistakes I made with the same darn coin!

rc

ApacheCoTodd
March 28, 2013, 05:15 PM
This dent in the opposite barrel wall:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/IMG_0146_zps3ace176d.jpg

Most of the remains of the vaporized bullet blew out through the muzzle, and if the rifle bolt was open, or opened later, the rest of it fell out through the action.

And as I mentioned in post #5, I have actually seen the exact same damage done on a Winchester Model 52 target rifle as a result of a ND in a gunsmiths shop many years ago.

rc
Got it RC. Thanks for the graphics. That was totally eluding me.

25cschaefer
March 28, 2013, 07:30 PM
Ok, I went to the range and conducted a few experiments on a shotgun barrel and a Turkish Mauser barrel. I gained a lot of info, some I expected, some I did not. All shots from an AR 15 (223), some at 25yds and some at 10yds, amour piercing and v-max.
First, bullets react strange when they go from metal to an air gap and then impact another piece of metal.
Second, Turkish Mausers have a sleeved barrel that made for some odd terminal ballistics.

At 25 yards, both 65gr penetrators, the glancing shots look almost identical in both the shotgun and rifle barrels.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3899_zpsf6caef87.jpg

Here is a better view of the rifle glaced with penetrators at 25, I began to suspect something was up with this barrel.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3901_zpsa0a62d12.jpg

Here is a direct hit at 10yds with a steel core penetrator on the shot gun barrel. It went in, disintegrated and blew out at 90 degrees from entry.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3902_zps53ca7809.jpg

From the side, you can see the spray on the inside.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3903_zps2348c8d9.jpg

A direct hit at 10 yds on the rifle barrel with a penetrator, it peeled the outer shell off the barrel and entered bore but only made a very minor dent in the other side, lots of lead spray.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3904_zpse8f3618b.jpg

This is a direct hit at 10yds with a Hornady V-max on the shotgun barrel. It went in and denigrated, only denting the other side.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3907_zps84a6cd9e.jpg

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3908_zps36e82742.jpg

A better shot of the 10yd penetrator hit, defiantly a sleeved barrel.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3912_zps9fe2e1bb.jpg

Here is a direct hit with a v-max at 10yds, it went through the first layer, dented the second and peeled out of the sleeve.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3915_zps00891a48.jpg

I accidentally shot a v-max into the fin left by the penetrator and it peeled even more.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh518/25cschaefer/100_3919_zpsc65990ae.jpg

This experiment solidified, for me, that the hole was caused by a high velocity, small bore round. Even in very thin metal, these rounds will evaporate before leaving the other side. The armor piecing rounds will penetrate 1/4" solid plate but won't penetrate two 1/8" pieces of steel. It is entirely possible for an expanding bullet to penetrate the 1/8" of steel on one side of a barrel and disintegrate without hardly scratching the other side.

rcmodel
March 28, 2013, 07:53 PM
Imagine that!!

But thinks for confirming what I have been saying all along.

rc

25cschaefer
March 28, 2013, 08:59 PM
One thing that bothers me about the story; the customer said he didn't notice it until he got home, I don't buy it. I had the Mauser barrel 4 inches into the rocky sand at the range and when hit at ten yards it flipped back about 6 ft, you would notice your rifle flipping off the bench or out of the rack. My guess is that the customer accidentally shot his own gun as he was taking another out of case loaded, or was unsafely loading/unloading it.

Bob N. Weave
March 28, 2013, 11:12 PM
The result of a weak spot(occlusion?) bursting.

Dentite
March 28, 2013, 11:16 PM
Great photos...thanks for sharing...the one does look remarkably similar to the original photo posted. I never said it was impossible, but I guess it might be easier to replicate that than I originally thought.

ironworkerwill
March 28, 2013, 11:33 PM
I'll give a dollar for that junk silver

JRH6856
March 28, 2013, 11:48 PM
I'll give a dollar for it and throw in a nice clad Kennedy half to replace it. (Might be in bad taste to shoot that one).

Jim, West PA
March 29, 2013, 07:30 PM
The result of a weak spot(occlusion?) bursting.

Bingo Bob !!

OP, send to manufacturer.

7.62 Nato
March 29, 2013, 11:13 PM
I think Lizabeth chot it!

Jim K
March 29, 2013, 11:31 PM
I am convinced it was the result of a bullet strike. I don't doubt that on a noisy range, if the rifle was sitting in a rack a bullet could hit it without it falling or doing anything especially noticeable. After all, any bullet fired has to hit something, if only the ground.

Jim

ridgerunner1965
April 1, 2013, 07:54 PM
if it was a bullet strike, on a gun in the rack behind the fireing line,i would be finding a new range before i ended up with a similar hole in my head.

rcmodel
April 1, 2013, 09:14 PM
Good point!
But the hole in your head will not look at all like that one!
On either side.

It will not be at all similar to that one.

rc

25cschaefer
April 1, 2013, 09:19 PM
Unless you had two steel plates with an empty space between up there.

rcmodel
April 1, 2013, 09:40 PM
I got the empty space.

But no steel plates.

rc

rimmer1
April 10, 2013, 05:02 PM
That's George Franklin, right?

rcmodel
April 10, 2013, 08:19 PM
NO.

That was Benny G. Washington.

Georges little known younger cousin from the black sheep side of the family.

rc

BWB
April 11, 2013, 05:44 PM
One more observation: Notice the very well defined square edged and flat bottomed mark at the upper edge (in the picture) of the hole. Looks to me like a distinct pry mark where somebody likely pried out the spent bullet. Whoever did that already knew the answer to the mystery.

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