Acceptable LSWC variation?


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ASCTLC
March 26, 2013, 11:56 AM
I just received some 158 gr LSWC .358 from one of the more common mfrs. Just on a short sampling the variation is:

.694" @ 160.1 grain
.702" @ 164.3 grain
all the way to one found at .713 @ 168.7 grain

Majority seems to be from my sampling:
60-70% are the 160.1 gr
the rest at the 164.3 gr
and just the one at 168.7 gr. Possibly a fluke in the batch but suspect I could find a few more in the box of 500.

This is mainly for target and light hunting in .357 mag pistol and lever action. How would you quantify this variation for a bulk lead bullet for all around use, pretty poor, not too bad, average, actually decent, or what?

Thanks,
Andy

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ArchAngelCD
March 26, 2013, 12:13 PM
Such a wide variation from the stated weight would bother me... Who's bullets are they?

Reefinmike
March 26, 2013, 12:16 PM
I personally would call for a refund or new product, a 10 grain variation is unacceptable. Not sure what casting method they are using, but the most variation I'll ever get when casting 158 and 230 grainers is .2gr

ASCTLC
March 26, 2013, 01:38 PM
If I just grab 2 that look alike with minimal/no excess lube they weigh 161.1 and 163.5.

Here's a pic of 2 extremes with excess lube removed so they only have it in the lube groove.

I don't know if it matters or not but these are not their "match" grade but rather their "Standard Hard Cast"

Like a clueless idjit, I threw that first 168 gr back in the bunch but it wasn't too hard to find another gross offender.

Andy

choppinlow
March 26, 2013, 02:14 PM
Not sure if it is just the picture, but the base on the right-side would bother me. I don't bother with any bullet that has deformed bases.

mdi
March 26, 2013, 02:45 PM
Length and weight can vary, but from your pic, one seems to not be filled out, and 8 grain difference would be enough for me not to use them without sorting/weighing each one...

I'm not a handgun hunter and not a target master/competition shooter but I like to use the quality components. I like to know that my ammo/guns are more accurate than I am. I cast many of my own bullets, like 85%, and would not accept that much variation.:barf:

ljnowell
March 26, 2013, 02:45 PM
Wow. Curious to know where those came from. It almost looks like two different molds. The crimp grooves are nowhere near similar!

Walkalong
March 26, 2013, 02:50 PM
Not only do they look like they came from different molds, they look poorly cast as well.

rcmodel
March 26, 2013, 02:50 PM
The one on the right has a big sprue cut-off bugger holding it up off the table.

In all, I would not be a happy camper with those bullets at all.

rc

Bula
March 26, 2013, 02:50 PM
You can get spoiled casting your own. These examples would have been thrown back in the pot. Those look beat up. Whether it's from the pour or banging around in the packing/sorting process. That much variance is probably fine for plinking and casual stuff. I'd not hunt with those. Not sure I'd be buying from them again.

ASCTLC
March 26, 2013, 03:01 PM
The majority are somewhere between 161 gr to 164 gr. I can probably cull the extreme outliers but would question 3 gr difference for "standard" cast. I'm not sure what my expectation is supposed to be on that - not sure if maybe I should have found something mentioned on their website.

choppinlow
March 26, 2013, 03:07 PM
Weight variation aside, they look very poorly cast. Do you have the option to return or exchange? I would recommend that if it is an option and with the sort of problems you have you would be well justified in your request.

ASCTLC
March 26, 2013, 03:25 PM
Believe it or not rc, that's not a sprue cutoff booger. it's actually flat on the bottom and has that little whateveryoudcallit only showing on the side of that bevel.

Both bullets are laying flat on the little post-it note and I used my caliper edge to ensure the bottom of the bullets were on the same plane.

I took another picture of an average bullet - I just reached in the box and grabbed one. It's basically what I got other than a number of extreme outliers.

I'll contact the mfr and discuss with him. I believe I can return if not satisfied. I'll save speculation on that conversation until after I'm discussing with him.

Andy

choppinlow
March 26, 2013, 03:28 PM
If that is the average, then the lot is not acceptable.

MikeS.
March 26, 2013, 03:37 PM
I sure hope those aren't from Missouri Bullets. I just rec'd a 4,000 round order and haven't opened them up yet.

kerreckt
March 26, 2013, 03:44 PM
Not acceptable. If I cast those, they would be rejected and thrown back into the pot. You should send them back. If you accept these whomever you bought them from would think their work is good and never improve their method or process and continue to sell slipshod castings. Just my 2 cents worth.

ljnowell
March 26, 2013, 05:03 PM
I sure hope those aren't from **********. I just rec'd a 4,000 round order and haven't opened them up yet.


Not even right to throw a manufacturers name out there on this thread. Let the OP contact whoever and then post the reael name of the company the, if they dont resolve. You should edit that out.

Hondo 60
March 26, 2013, 07:58 PM
Walkalong said: Not only do they look like they came from different molds, they look poorly cast as well.

I couldn't agree more.
Those look terrible.

If you purchased them, I'd expect them to be replaced.

ASCTLC
March 26, 2013, 08:55 PM
Email sent. We'll see how they answer. I suspect return will be on my dime.

I can get magnum capable pressure/velocity Power Bonds for .6 cents more but I'd like to get into some SWC if I can. We'll see what happens...

Andy

Ty 357
March 26, 2013, 10:05 PM
I sure hope those aren't from ---- I just rec'd a 4,000 round order and haven't opened them up yet.
Well whatever you do...don't open the box before posting.

ljnowell
March 26, 2013, 10:16 PM
Well whatever you do...don't open the box before posting.

I think its in poor taste of him to post that here really, someone could easily scan the thread and pick up thier name and associate them, with those bullets. Hopefuly he comes back and removes that, as its just wrong. Thats why I ***** it out in my quote. You should do the same.

ArchAngelCD
March 26, 2013, 11:33 PM
I am completely shocked Rimrock would send out a product like that. They have a good reputation so I'm shocked. Something must have went very wrong for those to get past quality control. I hope they fix that problem quickly.

ljnowell
March 26, 2013, 11:35 PM
I am completely shocked ******** would send out a product like that. They have a good reputation so I'm shocked. Something must have went very wrong for those to get past quality control. I hope they fix that problem quickly.


I didnt see where he mentioned what brand they were?

ArchAngelCD
March 27, 2013, 12:37 AM
He said it without writing it. I have keen detective skills my friend.


Here's a hint, mouse-over the photos he posted and you will see what I saw... ;)

ljnowell
March 27, 2013, 12:41 AM
He said it without writing it. I have keen detective skills my friend.


Here's a hint, mouse-over the photos he posted and you will see what I saw...


Ahhh! You got me! I didnt even look at the picture names! That is disapointing. I'm not bashful about saying who my favorite cast bullet supplier is, but RimRock makes some really good quality bullets, in my experience. I'm willing to bet they will make good on this.

Reefinmike
March 27, 2013, 12:44 AM
Email sent. We'll see how they answer. I suspect return will be on my dime.

I can get magnum capable pressure/velocity Power Bonds for .6 cents more but I'd like to get into some SWC if I can. We'll see what happens...

Andy
I'd be raising hell if they wanted me to return their mistakes on my own dime. Id expect rimrock to ship you a new box no questions asked(well besides sending them a few pictures).

ArchAngelCD
March 27, 2013, 03:57 AM
Email sent. We'll see how they answer. I suspect return will be on my dime.

Andy
Any reputable company will send replacements and probably send you a prepaid shipping label for the returns if they want them back at all.

ASCTLC
March 27, 2013, 10:12 AM
Yes, there was a way to tell as ArchAngel points out. I try to keep decent records of my reloading information and that includes details of my pictures I take and keep.

I didn't want to just blatantly come out with it yet though in favor of giving Frank a chance to respond first. I'm sure he's an outrageously busy man these days and will remain patient for his response.

This was more for educating me because I don't know what the expectation should be with lead bullets. Close up pictures can show more detail than is really an issue sometimes and weight variance is of course subjective to one's intended use so I'm afraid I'm just a little ignorant of this particular topic for cast. I certainly know jackets/plated with this variation would send me hollerin back at the mfr.

Andy

ASCTLC
March 27, 2013, 02:36 PM
Well, you guys called it :) He had a look at em and stated he didn't realize his molds had gotten so bad. Stated he was going to melt down his current product while he awaits his new molds being made by someone other than who'd made his last ones.

Told me he'll send me replacements after he gets the new molds up and running and to just go shoot up the ones I got.

And just to recap; these are the .358, 158 gr SWC-WN not the regular SWC.

Andy

Reefinmike
March 27, 2013, 06:18 PM
good to hear they made it right. Now you have 500 free dangerously out of spec bullets. You better mail em to me so I can melt em down and make em safe again :rolleyes:

ASCTLC
March 27, 2013, 07:57 PM
That's a thousand Mike. I wasn't overly bright and jumped in for a first try of 1k (live-n-learn I guess) We'll see when the time comes though. Just as a wild assed guess, I'm expecting a good 8 weeks at least if he still has to get molds and have them up and running for a shipable product. A lot can happen in that amount of time so all I have is his reputation, word, and hope at this point.

In the mean time I'll try to figure out what I can actually do with these. How would I work up a load when the range is as wide as 8 grs? If I took that much time to weigh and separate them within reason, even the bulk of em are a good 3 grains variation. Is that good enough for 25 yard light plinking if somewhat accuracy is desired? Don't want to just waste powder and primers if 3 grains bullet variation results in shotgunning 5" groups...

Andy

mdi
March 28, 2013, 01:59 PM
OK, you got a bad batch of bullets. Just load 'em up and shoot them since you have them on hand. Start with starting loads and you'll be ok. You may not be able to tell the difference in shooting (my shooting accuracy is waning due to my eyesight and strength so any so-so accuracy is good enuf for me). Chalk it up to experience and don't buy any more from that vendor...:cuss:

ArchAngelCD
March 28, 2013, 04:11 PM
Well, you guys called it :) He had a look at em and stated he didn't realize his molds had gotten so bad. Stated he was going to melt down his current product while he awaits his new molds being made by someone other than who'd made his last ones.

Told me he'll send me replacements after he gets the new molds up and running and to just go shoot up the ones I got.

And just to recap; these are the .358, 158 gr SWC-WN not the regular SWC.

Andy
just as I predicted a good company would do. I'm glad everything worked out for you and I'm glad it was a mistake as I guessed...

As a side note, I would load them up over a 4.0gr charge of W231 or your favorite .38 Special plinking load and just shoot them at the range. Knowing the variation might throw off the accuracy is fine if you're only plinking instead of using them for "important work". lol

dwhite
March 28, 2013, 09:02 PM
I just got an order of 1000 .40 bullets from a company I've been very pleased with.

These looked good but after going through them I'm a little disappointed. Found one with a hole in the side. The whole lot looks like they were done in a hurry.

Everyone is backed-up but I'd wait a little longer for better quality.

All the Best,
D. White

ASCTLC
May 6, 2013, 06:31 PM
UPDATE - Frank at Rim Rock followed through and I got the replacements. Now those a fine looking bullets!

Sent me a Pistol Sack too :)

Andy

Certaindeaf
May 6, 2013, 08:46 PM
That's great. How are/did those other bullets shoot?

rajbcpa
May 6, 2013, 09:57 PM
I got some cast projectiles from a different maker last week. One box was pock marked and looked like they were cast at the wrong temp. ....smothered in way too much lube.... the weights were OK...

The other boxes were better.

ljnowell
May 7, 2013, 04:26 AM
I got some cast projectiles from a different maker last week. One box was pock marked and looked like they were cast at the wrong temp. ....smothered in way too much lube.... the weights were OK...

The other boxes were better.So you commit a drive by on a reputable company over at TFL, disappearing and not posting the pictures requested and now you come over here? At least you had the decency to not post names. Did you ever contact the vendor?

ASCTLC
May 7, 2013, 10:01 AM
I haven't shot them Certaindeaf. I just haven't had time to shoot at all lately, been trying to get one of my bathrooms put back together (full remodel).

But when I do think about em, I don't know what I'm going to do with em. If I could do it cheap enough, I'd actually send them back to Frank and let him melt em back down. Rim Rock's just aren't cheap enough for me to add to my expense for a thousand of these by adding additional shipping charges.

I have my doubts I'll even shoot em. Just way too much variation for me to even figure out what to load.

Andy

Walkalong
May 7, 2013, 10:29 AM
Save them for that day you try your hand at casting. Melt em down and you'll have good bullet alloy all ready to go. Flux is already built in. :)

blarby
May 7, 2013, 10:35 AM
If that is the average, then the lot is not acceptable.

Yup, those be some ugly bullets.

A little weight variation is normal on machine cast bullets, but the size variation is....disturbing.

In reality, most folks and their pistols can't shoot the difference 4 or 5 grains would make in a bullet- to those who can, you are excused from this blanket statement.

To top it off- they are just FUGLY. Have some dang pride in your workmanship.


If you MUST buy a machine produced cast bullet, try Missouri Bullet or Rocky Mountain Reloading once Jake gets all of his machines up and running. Hopefully he can take some of the new biz overflow off of Brads' shoulders and let them get back up to full steam without an anvil over his head.

FWIW- once you start casting your own, you'll begin to enjoy the benefits of true flat base bullets- not the bevel base stuff the castomatic spits out.

In any event, those bullets would be going back, if they were mine......

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 10:39 AM
Well I'd sure shoot them.. speed drills, yadda. free is free!

ASCTLC
May 7, 2013, 10:51 AM
I guess I should have thought far enough to stow em for casting for myself. Been considering casting anyway... Guess I'm just too distracted with catching up with all I have to do around the house.

I got some MBCs recently blarby. Fine SWC bullets. But he doesn't do WFN SWC like I want. But that's alright, a good number of companies to fulfill my needs :D

Andy

maclords
May 9, 2013, 09:33 AM
I believe the first picture is two different bullets, one the 158-wn the other the standard 158-swc. I received a box from Rim Rock that had a mixture of the two myself. The crimp (one tapered one not) and lube grooves (one much wider) are visibly different. If/when you shoot those you will want to sort the two as they will have different seating depths (for me anyways.) The easiest way to sort them was to look at the noses and then verify looking at the crimp groove. It was a bit of a pain, but I enjoyed shooting them.

Hondo 60
May 9, 2013, 01:37 PM
I've purchased 1,000s of a famous makers 200 gr LRNFP.
I've seen 'em vary from 197 - 205.

As long as they aren't loaded to max powder charge, I wouldn't worry about it.

I use these for 45 Colt & 45 ACP.
My 45 Colt recipe is 11.0 gr Accurate #5, OAL 1.600
(got that data directly from Accurate's ballistician.)
Max would be 11.5

ASCTLC
May 9, 2013, 03:14 PM
Hmmm 8 gr variation... with a little effort, should I be able to find the time, I could probably weed out many to be within a more reasonable 158 gr weight range to make use of them and save the worst for recast... Thanks for further clarification.

Being as green as I am with cast, not so green reloading, the information you guys are conveying is immensely helpful to learn what expecations I should have.

Andy

Walkalong
May 9, 2013, 03:31 PM
Varying the alloy can make a fair difference in as cast weight, but naturally a lot should be all the same alloy and weights should be within 3 or 4 Grs for commercial bullets in my opinion. Some would say they expect less than that, and I bet many batches are. I am just not worried about a little weight variance. The charge weight in load books for cast bullets of say 200 grs, is perfectly safe with bullets from 197 to 205 Grs. Pressure wise I doubt you could prove a difference worth mentioning.

The weight spread on your bullets is not ideal, but certainly not dangerous. The consistency on diameter is ten times more important for leading and accuracy concerns. I would use 158 Gr lead data, even with the few 168 Gr bullets in the batch and never lose any sleep over it.

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