How much gun powder can you have and not have a problem with home insurance?


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clutch
March 27, 2013, 07:13 PM
I'm curious, how much smokeless powder can you have on hand before one might have an issue with a home insurance claim for fire? Right now I have 29 varieties of smokeless spread between my detached garage and home. Some of those varieties have a few pounds of extras behind them.

Considering events, I don't plan on letting up on stockpiling but I want to be sure I don't void my insurance.

Thanks,

Clutch

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jmorris
March 27, 2013, 07:15 PM
I treat it like gays in the military.

Lagarto
March 27, 2013, 07:20 PM
I installed a sprinkler over the area where I reload and store my powder.
Not for insurance purposes, but as a practical measure to avoid a catastrophe.

45lcshooter
March 27, 2013, 07:29 PM
Smokeless powder just burns, doesn't explode. I believe black powder anything over 50lbs you need paperwork of some kind. Smokeless I don't know of restrictions, you may want to play "dumb" and call your insurance company as some how ask without them throughing a flag.

Or construct or purchase a fire proof metal box and store your powder in. I know it might be kind of unhandy but then you really wouldn't need to play dumb with the insurance company.

ASCTLC
March 27, 2013, 07:35 PM
Read your policy and leave your agent out of it unless you know for a fact they won't act on such a question to revoke your policy.

Andy

Jim Watson
March 27, 2013, 07:40 PM
Off the top of my head, I think the model fire code that shows up in some load data pamphlets has a maximum of 25 lbs smokeless and maybe 5 lbs black. Not much for some people. 50 lbs is the most the black powder distributors will send in a single order; and that as two 25 lb cases. But if you were to go strictly by that fire code, you would have to store it in a separate magazine.

The recommendation for powder storage is in a wooden box. Wood is pretty good insulation and slows heat transfer even while charring. Also if it eventually burns through and the powder goes, it does not contribute shrapnel like a metal container.

A lot of huhu. I have on my new house's mantelpiece a scorched Goex can and a blackened whisky bottle recovered after the fire that totaled the old house. The contents are fine. Were fine, just fine in the case of the Jameson's. I've still got most of the FFFg, though.

I got no static from the insurance company, largely because NOTHING HAPPENED. I have not found where a single round popped in a melted box or bag, and the powder cans just sat there.

Nanook
March 27, 2013, 07:45 PM
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_200-Smokeless_Powder.pdf

Here's a great link that answers your question.

Jesse Heywood
March 27, 2013, 07:53 PM
No more than 5,000 lbs.? One or two guys here are going to be in trouble! :D

CLP
March 27, 2013, 07:53 PM
I treat it like gays in the military.
Up front and in the open???

ASCTLC
March 27, 2013, 08:02 PM
Well poop, that's not very much... :(


11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

wild willy
March 27, 2013, 08:23 PM
11-3.8 Not more than 20 lb. (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in
containers of a 1 lb. (0.45 kg) maximum capacity shall be displayed
in commercial establishments.

Back when you could find powder I've see a lot more than 20 one lb containers displayed.Several times more.

SHR970
March 27, 2013, 08:36 PM
A detached garage is not part of the residence. It is a U1 occupancy....therefore house = 20 lbs. and garage = 20 lbs. with it not being stored in an approved construction container.

The box of described construction is not even a NFPA class 2 portable indoor magazine. If you were to use a magazine you can increase your quantities. How ever, local codes and or state codes can preempt your storage quantities.

Example: California has a 20 lb. limit. If you wish to exceed it you by law need a permit.

Texan Scott
March 27, 2013, 09:16 PM
You can store as much as no one else knows about.

The practical wisdom of doing so is open for discussion.

Ultimately, as with everything else, the choice is yours until you allow someone else to make it for you. The consequences, however, will always be yours to keep.

jmorris
March 28, 2013, 02:30 AM
Quote: Originally Posted by jmorris I treat it like gays in the military.

Up front and in the open???

Maybe the old school version. Don't ask and don't tell. If it's not in the paperwork then do what you want.

Jim K
March 28, 2013, 03:08 AM
There is an outfit called the National Fire Protection Association. If you follow their guidelines you probably won't have a problem, but they set limits lower than many people like, plus require storage in the original containers.

Jim

Reefinmike
March 28, 2013, 03:25 AM
I just closed on my first house this week and them insurance agents tick me off. by prying into your business. They specifically asked if my dog was a pitbull or other "dangerous breed". Fortunatly, when I found her roaming the streets of cincinnatti(starving, dehydrated and scared) 4 years ago, my vet put her down on paper as an american bulldog. She was probably a poor "fighting dog" before she was abandoned but she is perfect in every other category... sorry for the derailment

Otto
March 28, 2013, 03:53 AM
Ask your insurance agent....he should have the specific information you're looking for.

Captaingyro
March 28, 2013, 03:35 PM
Ask your insurance agent....he should have the specific information you're looking for.

"Miss Landers...did you forget to give us homework?"

"Did you want to fly this approach and landing, General?"

"You didn't have anything planned for this year's tax refund, did you Honey?"

If you're afraid of the answer, don't ask the question.

Texan Scott
March 28, 2013, 04:43 PM
... the choice is yours until you allow someone else to make it for you...

bensdad
March 28, 2013, 10:53 PM
I've never heard of it being an issue in a post-fire investigation, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Minnesota has specific regulations that involve quantities and container construction. If your house were to go up - and a thorough investigation were to follow - would you be in violation of any codes, laws, statutes or ordinances?

Bottom line - what are you comfortable with?

Motownfire
March 28, 2013, 11:04 PM
So what did your insurance company have to say in answer to this question Clutch ???

beatledog7
March 28, 2013, 11:44 PM
Half the stuff under every kitchen sink in America is more potentially dangerous than smokeless powder--without a fire. And it's being regularly used by people who have no idea what it can do.

BullfrogKen
March 29, 2013, 12:24 AM
Old refrigerators are great storage units for powder.


And I love the picture of the dog and cat chillin together.

Lloyd Smale
March 29, 2013, 09:21 AM
my barn and reloading room burnt to the ground a few years back. I wont say how much ammo and powder and primers were out there but lets just say a bunch. I was totaly honest with my insurance man (auto owners). hes been my agent for 30 years and about knows what i have anyway. He told me that as far as he and auto owners were conserned it was a non issue.

rodinal220
March 29, 2013, 10:59 AM
:confused::confused:

stevehenry1
March 31, 2013, 04:38 AM
Don't count on the insurance agent being able to give you the correct answer. My father-in-law found out the hard way. He had a ham radio installed (bolted down) in his car. His agent told him it was covered. But when the car was broken in and the radio stolen, they refused to pay. There was a trick phrase loophole in the fine print. I called the claims office of my insurance to get a straight answer, and they refused to tell me unless I was filing a claim! I checked my policy and it had the same trick phrase. My neighbor tried to file a claim when a big tree limb over his house started cracking. Not only would they not cover the limb removal, they told him that when it fell it or the damage it caused would not be covered! The reason--since he called it meant he knew it was a hazard, and he was now responsible to abate it himself! Calling in effect blocked his coverage. BE WARY WHEN YOU TALK TO YOUR AGENT!!!!!

blarby
March 31, 2013, 05:16 AM
Well, you can count on this insurance agent giving you the right answer !

Unless its being used for commercial purposes, hazardous materials in the home are not specificaly limited under homeowners insurance in any of the states i've written it in.

Where you CAN go afoul is by exceeding your municipal limits.... and that IS buried in your language somewhere.

Most municipalities have limits of ANY time of hazardous material- not just gunpowder.

About the only thing i've seen limited in a household policy before was no more than 15 gallons of gasoline- and that was a weird product anyway.


In any event- all that paperwork they send you and everyone ignores ? Read it.

If its not in there, its not in there- period.

As for not trusting your agent to give you the right answer ?

If you can't trust yours to give you the right answers- you need a new agent.

2@low8
March 31, 2013, 05:25 AM
Normally, I would rather ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.

However, what is the risk to firefighters and possibly to you or your family should the area where you keep your powder become engulfed in flame before you are aware of it?

My guess is if you were to store the maximum amounts in opposite ends of your home it would probably decrease the risk, but not the legal requirement. YMMV

Crashbox
March 31, 2013, 12:10 PM
11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences
where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

ASCTLC posted this, and I do believe this is the NFPA stance per SAAMI. As mentioned elsewhere, local regulations would likely supersede it.

I'm not certain how much powder I have in stock myself, and I do not feel like taking inventory. It is stored in an old expired refrigerator which is perfect IMO for such material.

11-3.8 Not more than 20 lb. (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in
containers of a 1 lb. (0.45 kg) maximum capacity shall be displayed
in commercial establishments.

Back when you could find powder I've see a lot more than 20 one lb containers displayed.Several times more.

NO KIDDING!!! I've seen more violations of this than Carter has pills!

On a totally unrelated note- rodinal220: great handle. Reminds me of good ol' black-and-white film photography :) and I still have all my stuff for it.

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