I Need a Real Safe - input welcome!


PDA






Abear
March 28, 2013, 08:48 PM
I am new to THR but not new to the shooting sports. I am in the market for a real safe. I actually know quite a bit about safes & security but I am stuck on what to buy. I do not want a 7 gauge RSC or even 4 gauge Sturdy (I do recognize these are great RSC's). I was thinking of an AMSEC RF6528. I was also considering one of the AMSEC CFX Models like the 582820 which is a little smaller than the RF6528 but is a TL-30X6. Basically they are the same price.

The RF6528 has the great home no cost "gun safe" warranty. The CFX Model would be more secure but I am not sure of any real world difference. In the event the CFX needed opening in the future (like after a failed attack) would cost an arm and a leg. I also thought about one of the Amvaults in TL-15 or TL-30 (the RF Model being an Amvault masquerading as a gun safe).

The contents I plan for either model would be more sentimental than monetarily valuable. How do you put a price on a lever Winchester given to your by your Grandfather or a Colt Pistol that belonged to your deceased Father.

Any suggestions or input would be appreciated, yes I have the moving and delivery end professionally covered ($$$), yes the items are going on a concrete slab with access.

If you enjoyed reading about "I Need a Real Safe - input welcome!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
a1abdj
March 28, 2013, 09:38 PM
Against a run of the mill residential burglar, I don't think you're gaining much with the higher ratings. The truth is they can beat on either one for days, and likely not make much headway.

The other thing to point out is although the opening may be expensive, it would usually be covered by your homeowner's insurance. Everybody makes a big deal about the gun safe warranties, but the truth is they are rarely used (which is why they are offered to begin with).

CB900F
March 28, 2013, 10:42 PM
Abear;

Have you looked at Graffunder? And yes, I am a dealer. If you did pass them up, would you please tell me what influenced your decision?

900F

Abear
March 28, 2013, 11:33 PM
CB900F: I have not ruled out Graffunder, I know they make a high quality safe. Just from my brief looking at Graffunder, it seems they are more money without any increase in security. Fit and finish might be higher on the Graffunder but from a value standpoint the AMSEC line seems to offer more value per dollar.

Feel free to chime in and let me know why I might want to consider the "G" line. The AMSEC's are pushing the budget but still OK, afraid the G might be over budget.

A1a, thanks for pointing out the homeowners insurance option with a damaged safe, it was something that slipped by me.

jac1304
April 13, 2013, 12:45 PM
So how much do Graffunder Safes run?

a1abdj
April 13, 2013, 02:25 PM
One thing the Graffunder has going for it, is that it is a steel plate safe as opposed to a composite safe. The steel makes it heavier and more expensive to construct, but it also makes it easier to repair down the road.

A steel safe will have a much longer service life than a composite safe. It likely wouldn't make much difference for residential use, but by time you hand it down a few generations they may appreciate it. :D

FuzzyBunny
April 13, 2013, 02:35 PM
What is a a composite safe?

98f150
April 13, 2013, 05:11 PM
I own a Brown double door fire clad safe. I am more then happy with the workmanship of it. The finish is just what I wanted plain old black in color I didn't want to pay extra for a fancy high gloss finish. My safe has 1/2" steel plate walls, 1 inch plate door and all encased in 2.5 inches of high PSI concrete with a 12 gauge outer steel skin. I had the up graded best manual dial locks you can buy that I paid an extra $300 for them.

a1abdj
April 13, 2013, 07:27 PM
What is a a composite safe?

This term has been misused by gun safe manufacturers, which has caused more confusion.

A composite safe uses a thin steel shell filled with a high density "concrete" mixed with all sorts of nasty goodies. In these safes, the concrete is what is providing the security, and not the steel.

Composites are usually stronger than steel, lighter than steel, and cost less to produce than a steel safe.

Abear
April 14, 2013, 09:48 PM
"A composite safe uses a thin steel shell filled with a high density "concrete" mixed with all sorts of nasty goodies. In these safes, the concrete is what is providing the security, and not the steel."

"Composites are usually stronger than steel, lighter than steel, and cost less to produce than a steel safe."

Frank, tell me if I am wrong, on a composite TL-15 (such as an AMSEC Amvault), the TL-15 specs means the composite fill (body) is equivalent to 1 inch steel sides (A 7 Gauge or 4 Gauge body upgrade is not even close to a TL-15 rated body).

If what I stated is correct, then what would a TL-30 (assuming X6) body be roughly equal to in terms of steel sides? Just an educated guess or opinion would be appreciated.

CB900F
April 14, 2013, 10:15 PM
Abear;

There's no direct comparison factor between U.L.'s build schedule and the TL/TR ratings. But, an E level unit with a 1.5" door and all the other surfaces being 1.0" should provide a real world equivalent. I'm at home & don't have the spec sheet in front of me, but I know that's over 4000 lbs for a unit roughly the same size as the AMSEC.

900F

a1abdj
April 14, 2013, 10:28 PM
People get tied up with some of these ratings, and it can be confusing. Ultimately, it comes down to insurance companies and their requirements. Since the safes that are actually rated against professionals, they will tend to perform much better against your amateurs.

When talking about steel plate safes, an E rate is really an unrated TL-15, and a F rate is really an unrated TL-30. Although the bodies meet minimum standards, the doors are the only face tested on these particular ratings. The TL-15 would have a 1.5" A36 steel plate door. The TL-30 would have a 1" A36 plate laminated to a 1/2" manganese alloy plate.

Since the E and F rate safes are merely construction requirements, and the TL-15 and TL-30 safe are actually tested against an attack, it can get even more confusing. I have a Mosler in the shop that has a TL-15 rating, but only has a 3/4" plate door. It is a high strength alloy, which would put up the same fight as an A36 plate twice as thick. Without the UL tag, it's only a B rate.

So loosely, a composite TL30X6 would have a door and walls roughly equal in strength to a 1" A36 plate laminated to the 1/2" manganese plate.

Abear
April 14, 2013, 11:08 PM
CB900F/a1abdj: Thank you both for your comments.

CB900F, I saw my first Graffunder(s) in person over the weekend and I now understand the appeal. These were B and C rate boxes, they are hard to put into words, impressive may be the best adjective. Fit and finish has to be seen to appreciate these safes.

A1abdj, you mentioned Manganese plates on some of the TL-30X6's, I notice some Mfg's use Manganese and others mention different combinations, AMSEC for example mentions inner and outer steel plates w/composite. ISM mentions Armor Plate, Original mentions Manganese. Is anything really superior? I am sure this is an educated opinion answer, but I am sure you have drilled a few of these beast in your time.

a1abdj
April 15, 2013, 12:08 AM
It's not really the main portion of the doors that is hard to drill. The stuff hard to drill can be in the composites, or in the "hard plate" protecting the lock. You could drill through the inch and a half door with one bit that still has life left to it. Then you can hit a 1/4" hard plate that eats the specialized bits like crazy.

There is also an art to drilling which can only be learned by doing it. The different materials use require different techniques: High pressure, low pressure, high speed, low speed, or various combinations of all of these. Even the same type of bit from one manufacturer may drill one material better than another.

Manganese steel, and some of the other alloys can be hard to drill by hand, with normal tools. They don't put up much of a fight against the equipment I use.

CB900F
April 15, 2013, 08:51 AM
Abear;

Manganese steel is more of a protection against a torch attack than a physical one. Manganese steel doesn't behave like normal steels do when subjected to the heat.

For instance, we got a safe in that had been through major fire. We knew the combo, but the door/frame junction had warped & the door could not be opened. Therefore we contacted a welder & had him cut a hole in it. He bid the job to us, telling us: I got an exotic gas rig that'll go through this like a hot knife through butter. He lost his butt on the job. It took him eight full hours on the torch to get a plug out that was only barely big enough to get a hand through. And we had made him a start point with a 10" carbide wheel. Lost the wheel too. It was an old Diebold, weighed about 8000 lbs., not a Graffunder. However, you can get a Graffunder with a manganese laminate layer in it if you care to pay for it.

Update: A Graffunder E7240 weighs 4,800 lbs. The exterior dimensions are: 72" tall X 41.5" wde X 29.25" deep. I believe that's relatively close to the size of the AMSEC you were looking at.

900F

BrownSafe
April 18, 2013, 01:11 PM
Hey Abear!

I'm a representative from Brown Safe, and for what you're looking for, Brown offers some affordable, utilitarian, and secure solutions.

It looks like 98f150 owns one of our safes, and he seems satisfied:
I own a Brown double door fire clad safe. I am more then happy with the workmanship of it. The finish is just what I wanted plain old black in color I didn't want to pay extra for a fancy high gloss finish. My safe has 1/2" steel plate walls, 1 inch plate door and all encased in 2.5 inches of high PSI concrete with a 12 gauge outer steel skin. I had the up graded best manual dial locks you can buy that I paid an extra $300 for them.

It seems like 98f150 owns one of our Titan series commercial-grade double-door safes (http://www.brownsafe.com/features_Fire_&_Burglary_Safes/F&B_sizes_DDoor.html), or perhaps even one of our Estate safes (http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/estate_gun_safes/estate_gun_safes.html). He's welcome to clarify, but both offer some great features. If you're looking for something smaller, our single-door commercial safes (http://www.brownsafe.com/features_Fire_&_Burglary_Safes/F&B_sizes_SingleDoor.html) are also a great choice.

Let me know if there are any questions I can answer about our selection. I'd be more than happy to advise. Remember to look our Safe Buyer's Guide (http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq/faq.htm) before making a final selection. There is tons of great info there.

Thanks.

Sage Naumann
Brand and Technologies Manager
Brown Safe Manufacturing

Abear
April 23, 2013, 07:07 PM
Thank you Brown Safe, always nice to have input from companies that make real safes.

If you enjoyed reading about "I Need a Real Safe - input welcome!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!