.475 draws blood


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coyotehitman
March 29, 2013, 11:55 AM
It was big gun day. I broke out the Desert Eagle and 475 Linebaugh Monday with some stout loads to sight in and prepare for my trip to Alaska. Things were going well until I let one of the other patrons shoot it. Despite being told to hang onto it, it jumped up and bit him in the forehead creating a good sized gash, then got dropped (luckily only suffering a small ding). Anyway, 20 rounds into it I called it quits with the Linebaugh. There is just something about having an expensive revolver dropped that makes your day take a 180 degree turn. I don't think I'll be as willing to let the next guy experience the Linebaugh.

Anybody have any favorite loads for the 475 in grizzly country?

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22-rimfire
March 29, 2013, 12:06 PM
You do have to hang onto those big bore revolvers until you get used to the recoil. Nobody likes a gash in the forehead. Steel and skin/bone aren't a good mix.

Wander over to Handgun Hunter Magazine forum for your 475 loads. Since I have little practical experience I won't make any serious recommendations. But the experts are there every day.

coyotehitman
March 29, 2013, 12:33 PM
I felt bad for the guy. You could see the confidence drain out of him as the guys gathered to see what had happened. His man card took a hit too when the guy he was with told him he better stick to his 9mm. I'll check out that site, thanks for the info.

buck460XVR
March 29, 2013, 12:40 PM
Sorry to hear about the ding in your firearm. I've let many folks shoot my .460 X-Frame and it has yet to hit anyone in the head, nor have they dropped it. This includes women and my youngest son when he was 13 and weighed 95 pounds. All worked their way up to it with .357s and .44s and I was sure they could handle it before they were allowed to shoot legitimate .460 loads. Your friend needs his man card pulled.

CraigC
March 29, 2013, 12:52 PM
There is just something about having an expensive revolver dropped that makes your day take a 180 degree turn. I don't think I'll be as willing to let the next guy experience the Linebaugh.
I know what you mean. Personally, unless I knew they were familiar with the big sixguns, I wouldn't let anyone shoot it.


Your friend needs his man card pulled.
Well, there's a significant difference between a 4Żlb S&W .460 and a 43oz .475.

buck460XVR
March 29, 2013, 01:15 PM
Well, there's a significant difference between a 4Żlb S&W .460 and a 43oz .475.


Yes there is. But that pound and a half it is not the reason a grown man hit himself in the head and dropped the firearm. If it is, then there is a problem with the firearm itself and the cartridge it is chambered for. I don't believe the fault was with the gun. I believe it was the fault of the shooter and his inability to control the gun. Odds are it probably woulda happened had he been shooting an X-Frame. You are welcome to differ.

MikeJackmin
March 29, 2013, 01:49 PM
Sounds like you need a lanyard for that gun.

CraigC
March 29, 2013, 02:34 PM
I believe it was the fault of the shooter and his inability to control the gun.
I agree but if you've never fired a 2Żlb .475, you probably don't know what to expect. Obviously a gun that recoils less and is double the weight is less likely to be a problem. Grown men who grew up shooting .44's and .45's often have trouble mastering the .475 with full loads. That is, 430's@1350fps.

What loads were you using when your 13yr old son was shooting your .460 and what was the barrel length?

silicosys4
March 29, 2013, 02:47 PM
I agree but if you've never fired a 2Żlb .475, you probably don't know what to expect. Obviously a gun that recoils less and is double the weight is less likely to be a problem. Grown men who grew up shooting .44's and .45's often have trouble mastering the .475 with full loads. That is, 430's@1350fps.

What loads were you using when your 13yr old son was shooting your .460 and what was the barrel length?


If someone knows this about their gun, and I'm sure the OP did, why would someone let a person unfamiliar with heavy recoiling firearms fire their admittedly expensive, heavy recoiling gun?

Why are they not instructing them properly first as to what to expect?

Sounds like two lessons were learnt, and an unfortunate ding earnt.

murf
March 29, 2013, 03:13 PM
the 475 linebaugh is built on a single-action bisley frame. that design is meant to rotate in your hand when fired. the s&w double-ation frame design is meant to push straight back into your hand.

the recoil of a 36 ounce single-action revolver shooting heavy loads (325 grain bullet at 1275 fps) will imbed the front sight into your forehead if you hold the weapon with anything except a very firm grip.

i have been shooting that load in my 36 ounce ruger blackhawk (45lc) for thirteen years, now. i have only stuck the front sight into my forehead one time. that is the last time i will hold that pistol like a 357 magnum!

the frame design is what does it. oh, i still shoot that load. six shots and my wrist is toast.

so, i fully agree with craigc. hold on to that gun, and let people know the consequences if they don't.

murf

Chevelle SS
March 29, 2013, 04:08 PM
I clonked myself in the head with my buddy's 500 once. Ouch!

buck460XVR
March 29, 2013, 05:35 PM
I agree but if you've never fired a 2Żlb .475, you probably don't know what to expect. Obviously a gun that recoils less and is double the weight is less likely to be a problem. Grown men who grew up shooting .44's and .45's often have trouble mastering the .475 with full loads. That is, 430's@1350fps.

What loads were you using when your 13yr old son was shooting your .460 and what was the barrel length?

The loads were 300s @1850 fps. Just an average load from the 10 1/2'' barrel.



the 475 linebaugh is built on a single-action bisley frame. that design is meant to rotate in your hand when fired. the s&w double-ation frame design is meant to push straight back into your hand.

the recoil of a 36 ounce single-action revolver shooting heavy loads (325 grain bullet at 1275 fps) will imbed the front sight into your forehead if you hold the weapon with anything except a very firm grip.

i have been shooting that load in my 36 ounce ruger blackhawk (45lc) for thirteen years, now. i have only stuck the front sight into my forehead one time. that is the last time i will hold that pistol like a 357 magnum!

the frame design is what does it.


So you both are saying it is the fault of the gun and/or the caliber it is chambered for that resulted in the head knockkin'? I guess I can understand it a bit since I too prefer the grip angle and recoil from DAs as opposed to SAs when shooting the big boomers. But I still ain't blamin' the gun, sorry, but, the shooter was a wuss, not just to hit himself in the head, but then to drop and damage a firearm that didn't belong to him. IMHO, Man cards are not a given....they are earned.

SharpsDressedMan
March 29, 2013, 06:43 PM
There are so many things wrong about handing a gun of that power to a rookie. And I mean rookie to the challenges of heavy recoiling handguns. First, you should have had him watch you shoot it, in detail, and explained what you expected of him if he still wanted to do it. Second, shooters generally ease into power levels, and had you had medium or lower powered loads, you could see what he could handle on the way up. I have fired the .475 Linebaugh and .500 Linebaugh, at John Linebaugh's ranch. He did explain a few things to me about the handling of the guns before shooting. I currently own a S&W 500 snubnose, and most who have seen me fire it have little interest in abusing themselves with it. Those big guns are not for the faint of heart, or weak of commitment, as you discovered.

22-rimfire
March 29, 2013, 07:39 PM
Always blame the gun and not the shooter. Isn't that what the politicians do? :D

Years ago, my little sister shot my python (357 mag of course) and the gun just about lifted over her head. She almost dropped it. I told her to hold on tight. Like it was said, you need to work up to the recoil levels the big boomers can deal out.

Stress_Test
March 29, 2013, 08:44 PM
I've seen my brother shoot some of those crazy super-magnum single actions.

NO THANKS

coyotehitman
March 29, 2013, 09:57 PM
Well, thanks for the critiques. Still no pet loads listed, though.


The gun now has some character. When I see the ding, I'll remember the look on his face and get a chuckle. He's not hurt and I've come to the realization the gun is a piece of metal, an expensive one, but its not the end of the world.

Yeah, I own a 500 Smith and other big bores. The Linebaugh is a different handling animal.

CraigC
March 29, 2013, 10:20 PM
But I still ain't blamin' the gun...
We're not "blaming" the gun but you're talking about an 82.5oz (5.2lbs!) behemoth with a muzzle brake and we're talking about a 43-45oz sixgun with more punishing cartridge. Dude, you have to know that it ain't the same, far from it.

CB900F
March 29, 2013, 11:05 PM
Coyote;

Before I'll make any suggestions as to a .475 Linebaugh load, I'd like to know what platform you're using.

900F

Jaymo
March 30, 2013, 02:15 AM
The .454 Casull will give your forehead a front sight imprint, also, if you don't hold onto that puppy.
Having someone drop my gun would be like them scratching the paint of my car, or groping my wife. I would be furious.
I used to want a Casull. Then, I shot one. I'm perfectly happy with .44 mag and .45 Colt +P.
I'm even happier with .44 Spl

CraigC
March 30, 2013, 12:24 PM
Having someone drop my gun would be like them scratching the paint of my car, or groping my wife. I would be furious.
You got that right!:fire:

buck460XVR
March 30, 2013, 12:35 PM
Dude, you have to know that it ain't the same, far from it.


I know dude. It's why I like the X-Frame and prefer it over other hand cannons built on a smaller lighter frame. Main reason I always figured the .454 never caught on like other hand cannons in different platforms.....they are just brutal to shoot. Never understood the philosophy of having a firearm platform that is brutal and dangerous even in the hands of an experienced shooter, rifle or handgun, unless it truly is needed(as in dangerous game) and there are no other viable platforms out there. Yes, my X-Frame is a behemoth, but it ain't ever kissed and left anyone with a permanent mark when shot. Even women and small children. Some folks think that extreme recoil and pain are a ticket to their man card....as the subject of this discussion found out, it is not. To me, puttin' lots of holes in a small space downrange is. A firearm that is pleasant to shoot and easy to control makes that much easier. JMHO. Others are free to differ.

CraigC
March 30, 2013, 01:17 PM
Yes, but that's not really relevant. Lots of folks shoot these monsters and it has nothing to do with machismo or masochism. The difference is that between what is really a light stockless rifle that needs a bipod and a sling and a big bore that you can carry comfortably on your hip all day. Because it is the same size and weight as a .44Mag. Inexperienced shooters shouldn't be shooting .475's anymore than you hand a 12ga with slugs to your 100lb girlfriend. Problem is, a lot of men think that because they have nuts they can handle anything and are determined to learn every lesson the hard way. In this case, it involved stitches and a scratched up sixgun.

JohnM
March 30, 2013, 01:59 PM
I got a S&W XVR 460 just because I wanted one.
Mine's the 8 3/8 barrel, which is really a 7 1/2, the rest of the length is the compensator.
And it is a heavy sucker, right at 6 pounds with the scope and loaded.
At my age it's mostly going to be blasting holes in paper at distant targets.
It sure is fun to shoot, but spendy with factory ammo.
Reloading is the only way to go.

coyotehitman
March 30, 2013, 03:55 PM
CB, 5.5 bisley build. I'm thinking a 400gr flat nose might best meet my needs.

SharpsDressedMan
March 30, 2013, 04:23 PM
Linebaugh's concept was to put the best knockdown in the most portable package. A compromise, of course, and strong recoil is the result of the guns being easier to carry all day. I went with the snubbie .500 X-frame S&W, which is still about 56oz empty. That is a half pound heavier than a 6.5" S&W Model 29 .44 mag, and noticieable on the hip. ALL of the other X frames are heavier, and not that portable. I get the snot kicked out of me with the snubbie, but it delivers .475 or .500 Linebaugh ballistics in just a slightly heavier weapon, at about half of the pricetag, and with the extra weight, is easier to manage the recoil with those comparable loads (which are reduced .500 S&W loads), and cheaper to reload, due to brass and component availability. The Linebaughs are beautifully crafted, and much easier to pack than the X frames, but harder to shoot. BUT, they are not designed for plinking all day. They are special purpose-hunting or dangerous game defense pistols.

CB900F
March 30, 2013, 04:27 PM
Coyote;

OK, this load was worked up in an FA, so if I were you, I'd approach it with a fair amount of caution.

Cast Performance 425 gr LFNGC, Hornady brass, CCI lg pistol magnum primer and 18.5 grains of Blue Dot.

This will accelerate that bullet to 1250 fps from the six inch barrel over an Oehler 35P.

Now I'm not a large man, and I don't want to search for any stiffer loads, but I'd have to say that in an FA you'd have to be a real 98 lb weakling to have it come up & smack ya between the eyes. I'll also say that when your up to your elbows in elk guts, and your rifle is resting against a tree 10 feet away, it's real comforting to have it on the hip. We know that ole Mr. Griz sometimes regards the sound of a shot as a dinner bell.

900F

Confederate
March 31, 2013, 01:33 PM
The loads were 300s @1850 fps. Just an average load from the 10 1/2'' barrel.






So you both are saying it is the fault of the gun and/or the caliber it is chambered for that resulted in the head knockkin'? I guess I can understand it a bit since I too prefer the grip angle and recoil from DAs as opposed to SAs when shooting the big boomers. But I still ain't blamin' the gun, sorry, but, the shooter was a wuss, not just to hit himself in the head, but then to drop and damage a firearm that didn't belong to him. IMHO, Man cards are not a given....they are earned.
Accidents can happen to anyone, and I think it's a bit harsh to criticize the fellow without having been there. (After all, he wouldn't be the first guy to clobber himself in the head with a high-recoiling pistol, nor will he be the last.) The nick on the gun gives it character and there will forever be a story behind it. Had the piece been stainless steel it could have been easily removed.

I don't have an up-to-date man card, nor will I shoot anything more than a .44 mag. In fact, I sold my beautiful 629-0 without its ever having been shot. The .357 is about tops for me.

Walkalong
March 31, 2013, 11:01 PM
Sorry to hear about the scratch on the revolver, but with that kind of power it can happen, especially if the shooter doesn't really understand what it will do.

No one has ever threatened to take away my "man card" because I have no desire to shoot that kind of power in that kind of package. I'll leave that for folks who really like recoil. My cutoff in handguns is .44 Mag in a Redhawk. In rifles I have no desire to shoot a .300 Win Mag, but the .458 Win Mag in a heavy rifle is fun. :)

Manny
April 1, 2013, 01:18 AM
I have a .475 Freedom Arms, but at risk of having my man card yanked, 480 Ruger loads are much more to my liking. Shooting them in the FA is fun, much more more would not be.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=6

Found a lot of wisdom in the above article, sometimes less is more.

hseII
April 1, 2013, 09:13 AM
[QUOTE=buck460XVR;8841490]Main reason I always figured the .454 never caught on like other hand cannons in different platforms.....they are just brutal to shoot.

^^^^ is it crazy that I now own a model 83 Field Grade, and actually liked the Magnum Research BFR .454 that I traded better than the FA of same barrel length, caliber, etc. I can't tell any dif in accuracy but the BFR to me was just as good of gun....

sleepyone
April 1, 2013, 02:13 PM
Getting knocked in the head is nothing to being ashamed of... if you learn from it and it never happens again. Now dropping the gun, unless you were knocked unconscious, that is a grievous sin.

Some bozos get a kick out seeing their guy friend, wife or girlfriend getting knocked silly from a hand cannon. Just search You Tube. Not saying the OP was guilty of this, but simply telling someone to use a tight grip when they fire one of these beasts for the first time is pure negligence on the gun owner's part. It really helps to see one fired and gripped properly before attempting it yourself. There is more to it than having a tight grip. They need to understand that your wrist, arm and even shoulder should all become an extension of the gun and help absorb the recoil. That is asking a lot of someone to control that amount of recoil with grip only. If someone did that to me, he would be the next person to have a gash on his forehead!

Personally, due to carpal tunnel and shoulder issues, I don't shoot anything larger than my 686 Plus. I've shot a few full-power .44 Mags loads and did not care for them. The .30-06 is the largest rifle caliber I shoot.

Satasaurus
April 1, 2013, 07:54 PM
That really sucks, sorry to hear that. I'm sure others have already said, but I would never let anyone shoot my guns, let alone a gun with that kind of recoil ... Sorry, I'm probably not making you feel any better, but what's done is done. You were just trying to be nice. I wish people let me shoot their guns, but I never ask because I wouldn't let them shoot mine. People have let me shoot their Sig and 1911 though, which was really cool because I can't afford either for a while.

bergmen
April 1, 2013, 08:30 PM
This is my buddy Richard shooting my Freedom Arms Model 83 in .454 Casull:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u580/Bergmen/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/Handguns/th_Richardand454-01_zps8bf44878.jpg (http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u580/Bergmen/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/Handguns/Richardand454-01_zps8bf44878.mp4)

I had counceled him to grip tightly and not let his wrist take the recoil but transfer the recoil to his arm and shoulder. It looks to me that he let his wrist take too much but still hung onto it pretty well.

BTW, these are my top loads with 35 grains of W296 over 250 grain Hornady XTP-MAG bullets.

Turn your speakers on...

Dan

Jaymo
April 1, 2013, 08:44 PM
I've seen a FA Casull smack a guy in the head, and he was far from a "90 pound weakling".
.454 Casull has a violent recoil. I have no doubt that it's handy in bear country.
It's a helluva round, no doubt. My Redhawk .44 Mag feels like a .44 Spl, by comparison.

Hammerdown77
April 2, 2013, 10:10 AM
This is my buddy Richard shooting my Freedom Arms Model 83 in .454 Casull:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u580/Bergmen/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/Handguns/th_Richardand454-01_zps8bf44878.jpg (http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u580/Bergmen/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/Handguns/Richardand454-01_zps8bf44878.mp4)

I had counceled him to grip tightly and not let his wrist take the recoil but transfer the recoil to his arm and shoulder. It looks to me that he let his wrist take too much but still hung onto it pretty well.

BTW, these are my top loads with 35 grains of W296 over 250 grain Hornady XTP-MAG bullets.

Turn your speakers on...

Dan
Elbows locked, isosceles stance, NEVER a good combination with a heavy recoiling sixgun....

bergmen
April 2, 2013, 12:32 PM
I'm always hesitant to post videos of me, my sons or my friends shooting because I always seem to get critical posts about them doing something wrong.

Some time ago I posted a proud video of my son shooting his CMP Garand for the first time and what did I get? He doesn't have a good cheek weld, he is holding it wrong, shouldn't support the rifle that way, yada, yada, yada. No comments about his birthday present or how fantastic it is that he selected this rifle because of it's historical value.

I am NOT attempting to show an ideal stance or technique. Richard and I are having fun and I wanted to share it, that's all.

Dan

Hammerdown77
April 2, 2013, 02:59 PM
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be critical, just pointing out an issue I see sometimes with shooters who are new to heavy recoiling revolvers. You see this a lot with guys who are used to shooting semi-autos, especially the ones who compete in IDPA/IPSC. The square to the target, arms fully extended stance doesn't do a good job of using your elbows and shoulders and body mass to absorb the recoil of something like a 454, 475, or 500. All that recoil is going to go straight into your wrists.

Here's a good example. Here we're shooting a 500 Linebaugh. I'm using a modified Weaver, angled slightly to the target, elbows bent, and using a little isometric tension by pushing slightly with my strong arm, and pulling with my support arm. In contrast, my buddy is using the typical competition shooter stance (he shoots IDPA). Notice the difference in how the gun recoils, and how his wrist is violently wrenched back (also why he's shaking his head, 'cause it hurt...)

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Hammerdown77/th_Shootingthe500L_zpse939a3fb.jpg (http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq296/Hammerdown77/Shootingthe500L_zpse939a3fb.mp4)

bergmen
April 2, 2013, 03:35 PM
I appreciate your response and I agree with you all the way. In retrospect I think I should have spoken more of proper technique rather than just "hang on to it like you are choking your favorite poilitical enemy hard enough to make their eyes pop out" method.

I hadn't really thought of it but the isosceles stance really contributes to massive muzzle flip as seen on your video.

This will give me an excellent excuse to take Richard out again and burn up copious amounts of W296 while rattling the shingles.

Sorry I took it wrong and thanks for the tips!

Dan

silvermane_1
April 10, 2013, 05:16 AM
I have a .475 Freedom Arms, but at risk of having my man card yanked, 480 Ruger loads are much more to my liking. Shooting them in the FA is fun, much more more would not be.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=6

Found a lot of wisdom in the above article, sometimes less is more.
nothing unmanly about a .480 Ruger, in fact it has the advantage of being able to fit in a 6 shot DA SRH.

Lloyd Smale
April 10, 2013, 09:18 AM
Lost track of how many times the front blade has kissed the top of my head shooting the 475 and 500. I happens even to us who shoot them alot when we dont pay attention to what were doing. I watched a guy at the linebaugh seminar one year shoot my 475 with full power loads and were it right in the face. he broke his glasses and put a nasty gash on his face. It was a two day deal and the funny thing was the second day he was no where to be found. He snuck off home. I have though seem some idiots with heavy recoiling guns try to set up guys and get a laugh out of it. thats sure not cool! you can seriously hurt yourself with one if you dont respect it. I still remember hearing a story years ago about a guy who let his son shoot his big gun (i believe it was a 500 smith) and it came back on him cracked his skull and killed him on the spot. by the way i too had a guy drop my 500 shooting it once and wasnt very happy! I specificaly told him to keep his fingers off the trigger until he was ready to shoot and he didnt listen and the gun went off as soon as he cocked it and went flying.

TennJed
April 11, 2013, 12:04 AM
So is this "man card" stuff another ploy by the antis? Will this govtermnet be able to track my testicular fortitude with this card? And worst of all is a picture required? No thanks. I rather big brother know less about me

gastong30
April 11, 2013, 02:43 AM
Lloyd I saw something similar at one of John's seminars. The recoil caused the hammer to put a hole in a guys cowboy hat.

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