Why do law enforcement and civillians carry 147gr 9mm?


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Mr. Ready
March 31, 2013, 01:30 AM
I could be wrong but as far as im aware the 147gr was developed for use with suppressors. 9x19 parabellum is a high velocity round so doesn't making it subsonic kinda defeat its purpose? Ballistics charts i've seen suggest that 125 and 115gr load hit much harder. If somebody is that worried about overpenertration wouldn't they be better off with a round that is subsonic normally?

Im kinda new to shooting and this one is confusing me.

And please none of this "would you want to be hit with it?" crap, i wouldn't want to get hit with a .22 but that doesn't mean i'd trust it to stop an aggressor.

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JO JO
March 31, 2013, 01:43 AM
the LE guys I know including local,state,fed have dropped the 9mm and most carry 40 s&w
and a small few 45acp,

KenW.
March 31, 2013, 01:52 AM
My duty ammo is the 124 grain Gold Dot.

Girodin
March 31, 2013, 02:08 AM
Ballistics charts i've seen suggest that 125 and 115gr load hit much harder.

I take it by "hit much harder" you mean to say produce more energy at the muzzle or a given distance? What is the difference. The energy differences probably are not really that notable. Its probably more valuable to look at a loads propensity for 1) reliable penetration 2) expansion of the bullet and depending on circumstance 3) performance with regard to barriers.

There is much more that goes into terminal ballistics than muzzle energy. IMHO there are likely to be much more meaningful variables than what are often relatively paltry differences in energy.

RevolvingGarbage
March 31, 2013, 02:15 AM
A medium weight, medium caliber bullet going a at a moderate speed is not a bad combo. With the 147gr the 9x19 basically duplicates a good .38 special load. Either will serve fine in most situations.

What the 147 gives you over a lighter bullet (of the same type) is generally better penetration (in soft media), and better overall performance at longer ranges. What you loose is velocity, which means a little less kinetic energy.

mljdeckard
March 31, 2013, 02:24 AM
Heavier bullets get better penetration. I prefer 147 gr in 9mm, but my wife didn't like the recoil, so I have her carrying 115 gr.

Mr. Ready
March 31, 2013, 02:54 AM
I take it by "hit much harder" you mean to say produce more energy at the muzzle or a given distance? What is the difference. The energy differences probably are not really that notable. Its probably more valuable to look at a loads propensity for 1) reliable penetration 2) expansion of the bullet and depending on circumstance 3) performance with regard to barriers.

There is much more that goes into terminal ballistics than muzzle energy. IMHO there are likely to be much more meaningful variables than what are often relatively paltry differences in energy.
By "hit much harder" i mean sends a bigger wqve through ballistics gel

mljdeckard
March 31, 2013, 03:01 AM
The shock wave is worthless. There is a theory that hydrostatic pressure will cause devastating damage by making a shock ripple that makes tissue disintegrate. Trouble is, it doesn't work. It turns out, most organs and tissue are very resilient. (The most notable exception being the liver.) The pressure will bruise, but it won't incapacitate.

The only thing you can rely on to stop a bad guy with a pistol is cavity trauma. The bullet makes a hole. A bigger bullet makes a bigger hole, but a smaller one might be easier to make more holes with than a bigger one. If you use premium JHP bullets, they will usually expand and make bigger holes. The more cavity trauma you cause, the better the odds you will hit something the bad guy needs to keep moving. That's IT.

sixgunner455
March 31, 2013, 03:45 AM
It's because of the FBI Miami shootout from 1986. Many firearms were fired in the fight, but the 147gr bullets were adopted and used for years after because of only one of them:

One of the 115gr 9mm rounds was on a wound track in the torso of the primary bad-guy shooter that it would have perforated his heart, but that particular bullet was designed to limit penetration through light weight and expansion. It had expanded so much that it stopped an inch or more short of the heart. The wound caused his lung filled with blood, and would have eventually caused him to die, but it did not stop him from trashing that team with his rifle.

147gr penetrate further.

9mmepiphany
March 31, 2013, 04:39 AM
I could be wrong but as far as im aware the 147gr was developed for use with suppressors. 9x19 parabellum is a high velocity round so doesn't making it subsonic kinda defeat its purpose? Ballistics charts i've seen suggest that 125 and 115gr load hit much harder. If somebody is that worried about overpenertration wouldn't they be better off with a round that is subsonic normally?

Im kinda new to shooting and this one is confusing me.
The history of the 147gr 9mm slug is pretty interesting. It was originally produced for use against sentries/guard dogs through a suppressed pistol and was loaded to sub-sonic velocities for that use.

The FBI Miami shootout aftermath committee studied different bullets to try to find a bullet that offered better stopping power. The 147gr loading was thrown in almost as an afterthought and surprised the testers with it's penetration. This lead to the FBI selecting this load as the stop gap to it's problems, while it conducted testing for a better caliber than the 9mm...which resulted in them adopting the 10mm S&W 1076 as an issue gun.

Unfortunately their adopting the 147gr sub-sonic JHP lead a lot of LE departments to adopt it as an issued loading for their 9mm pistols. The major attribute of the sub-sonic 147gr slug in LE work is accuracy.

The 9x19mm was designed with a 124gr slug and this is still an optimal bullet weight. Ammunition manufacturers have developed JHP technology of their premium defensive ammo to all meet the requirements set forth by federal research to the point that it doesn't really make a difference which JHP you pick.

What does matter much more is which loading you can make accurate and repeated hits on target with the most quickly.

Chris-bob
March 31, 2013, 04:51 AM
Great info! Thanks for the read.

Edarnold
March 31, 2013, 05:27 AM
One other factor: since a real-world shoot out seldom offers the opportunity to put on hearing protection, the sub-sonic 147 gr load is going to do less damage to hearing, both immediately and long term. Especially in an indoor situation. Which is why I cringe when I see the TV 'experts' touting an M4 carbine in 5.56 for home defense.

IMHO

Mr. Ready
March 31, 2013, 07:48 AM
The shock wave is worthless. There is a theory that hydrostatic pressure will cause devastating damage by making a shock ripple that makes tissue disintegrate. Trouble is, it doesn't work. It turns out, most organs and tissue are very resilient. (The most notable exception being the liver.) The pressure will bruise, but it won't incapacitate.

The only thing you can rely on to stop a bad guy with a pistol is cavity trauma. The bullet makes a hole. A bigger bullet makes a bigger hole, but a smaller one might be easier to make more holes with than a bigger one. If you use premium JHP bullets, they will usually expand and make bigger holes. The more cavity trauma you cause, the better the odds you will hit something the bad guy needs to keep moving. That's IT.
then while does .357 mag beat .45acp in the manstopping department?

Deus Machina
March 31, 2013, 10:44 AM
then while does .357 mag beat .45acp in the manstopping department?

It may not, but has just been used by more police agencies.
Otherwise, it may penetrate deeper, and .357 has a habit of expanding even some of the most stubborn JHP's.

As for 147gr 9mm, it had a reputation for not expanding from pistols for a while, because it was designed for either subsonic loads (and the popular JHP designs weren't, or it was just designed for the very edge of subsonic out of something longer than many compact handguns) or for SMG's, and didn't get the speed it needed. The recent premium loads have corrected this.

I consider 124gr the 'optimal' round in most cases, but the right 147's are raking hell in tests and track records. Federal HST 147 shoots a little softer than the 124 +P from my gun, sounds a little quieter (completely unscientific tests) and penetrates deeper.

It all comes down to how the company works it out.

RBid
March 31, 2013, 10:47 AM
My personal reasons:

1. Shot placement-- the 147gr Gold Dot is a soft shooting round, which my SR9c and G19 (Gen 4) both love to eat. That round, from a low-bore pistol, with a great RSA, and high grip = extreme controllability. Follow up shots are easy.

2. Penetration. I live in the Portland, OR area. It's overcast and wet for most of the year, so heavy clothes and heavy people are common. The 147gr tends to get a little extra depth in testing, which I appreciate.

3. Expansion. Thanks to modern ammunition technology, the good stuff all expands very well, even the 147gr.


I think the Federal HST 147gr and Speer Gold Dot 147gr are great rounds. The HST trades away some penetration for expansion, so I stay with Speer.

charlie fox
March 31, 2013, 11:06 AM
My personal reasons:

1. Shot placement-- the 147gr Gold Dot is a soft shooting round, which my SR9c and G19 (Gen 4) both love to eat. That round, from a low-bore pistol, with a great RSA, and high grip = extreme controllability. Follow up shots are easy.

2. Penetration. I live in the Portland, OR area. It's overcast and wet for most of the year, so heavy clothes and heavy people are common. The 147gr tends to get a little extra depth in testing, which I appreciate.

3. Expansion. Thanks to modern ammunition technology, the good stuff all expands very well, even the 147gr.


I think the Federal HST 147gr and Speer Gold Dot 147gr are great rounds. The HST trades away some penetration for expansion, so I stay with Speer.

I live north of you and rethought my 9mm loadings for the exact same reasoning. Even out of my Kahr CM9 the 147 gr is a very easy round to shoot quickly and accurately.

usp9
March 31, 2013, 11:15 AM
Some 147gr gets through a windshield better than some lighter 9mm. Windshield penetration is a favored factor in LE ammo.

bigwheel
March 31, 2013, 01:22 PM
Dittos to Jo Jo..cant think of many cop shops which allow 9 mms or wheel guns these days...cept maybe a few who allow the plain clothes follks to carry pint sized 9's. In this area all I know have went to .40 Sigs or Glocks. One sizable town which still allows 1911's but must be either Colt or Kimber brand.

jdh
March 31, 2013, 01:28 PM
It was the only thing on the shelf at the gun shop.

Sox
March 31, 2013, 01:33 PM
I carry 147gr. My thinking is I want the most penetration like others have said to reach vitals. The FBI critieria were devleoped in the 80's and recommended at least 12" penetratlon in gelatin. Today society as a whole is roughly 30% heavier.

easyg
March 31, 2013, 01:44 PM
Why do law enforcement and civillians carry 147gr 9mm?
Most don't from what I've seen.

And from all that I've seen, heard, and read, the 9mm performs better at lighter weights when it comes to quickly stopping aggressive humans.

BlindJustice
March 31, 2013, 03:27 PM
My carry load for my CZ 75B is
Double Tap 145 gr. Speer Gold DOt @ 1,125 FPS.

Most 9x19 factory ammo is loaded to about 1,000 fps

I've found the Federal AMerican Eagle 147 gr. verry accurate

LEO carry it? not around here

SE Wash. Local police Glock 17 9x19 Win Ranger 124 gr.

WSU Campus Police - Glock xx .40 S&W

Whitman County Sheriff Dept. - Kimber 1911 .45 ACP

WSP - S&W M&P .40 S&W

So much for magazine logistics interdepatment eh?>

R-

RBid
March 31, 2013, 03:55 PM
Portland (OR) PD and NYPD carry Speer Gold Dot +P 124gr. I don't know of any departments carrying 147gr.

I'm OK with that. I still prefer it.

9mmepiphany
March 31, 2013, 04:12 PM
I don't know of any departments carrying 147gr.
I don't either.

The local departments that carry 9mm are carrying 127gr Ranger, 124gr Gold Dot and 124gr HST

Deanimator
March 31, 2013, 05:00 PM
Unlike a lot of people, I don't have a velocity fetish.

I use the Winchester White Box 147gr. JHP in all of my 9x19mm guns. Box 'O Truth tested them and they rated highly for BOTH penetration and expansion. They're very accurate and 100% reliable in my Browning Hi Power and Glock.

Chuck R.
March 31, 2013, 05:11 PM
I also carry a 147 load (REM Golden Saber, and Speer GD)in my Walther PPS and PPQs.

To me the 147s are more of a “push” than a “snap” in the recoil department, and I’m back on target faster. Also, in the short barreled PPS the 147s don’t lose as large of a percentage of velocity when compared with the 124s or 115s. I also worked up a 147grn cast bullet load for IDPA that mirrors my carry ammo in MV. IMHO, the 147s are "softer" shooting.

Chuck

zxcvbob
March 31, 2013, 05:14 PM
then while does .357 mag [125 grain] beat .45acp in the manstopping department? [a.k.a. "one shot stops"]


My theory is it takes *much* longer to get back on target for the second shot with a .357, but then you don't need the 2nd shot after all. You *might* not have needed the 2nd shot of a .45 double-tap either.

mljdeckard
March 31, 2013, 07:12 PM
A .357 may, under some conditions, according to one method of testing, be somewhat more likely to get a one-shot stop than a .45. Real world statistics are much more murky.

It's not that I don't love good heavy revolvers, I do, and a 4" or 6" Python is definitely on the "Someday" list, but I can deliver better shots faster with my 1911. I can also reload it a lot faster. Either one is very likely, with most loads, under most conditions, to completely traverse a human target, and my .45s make bigger holes. (Particularly with 230 gr HSTs, which routinely expand to about the diameter of a quarter.)

SharpsDressedMan
March 31, 2013, 07:15 PM
The bullet weight/terminal effects/velocity/penetration argument aside (who REALLY knows which is best, or which you need at the moment), I am quite pleased with the accuracy of both Federal and Speer 147gr ammo, and the fact that they function well and can be used in any of my 9mm handguns.

Mango88
March 31, 2013, 08:59 PM
I tend to carry 147 gr. bullets in my Walther PPS and Glock 19 as I think that the heavier bullet seems to cycle the action better, I seem to find that I have fewer failure to feed events with the 147 gr. bullets versus the 115 gr. bullets. Not to say that I have a lot of failure to feed incidents but the heavier bullet seems to work a tad better. I also tend to use 230 gr. bullets in 45 acp for the same reason. However, your results may vary and I may be guilty of conformational bias.

ramboo
March 31, 2013, 09:15 PM
What about the cridical duty 135 grain +P bullet from Hornady.

coolluke01
March 31, 2013, 09:30 PM
I chose the 147 Ranger T's for use in my G26. The +P versions don't really provide any benefit in a shorter barrel.

basicblur
March 31, 2013, 09:32 PM
I assume it's legit, but I have a letter someone posted asking Winchester what they recommended for their short barreled 9mm. The ballistics engineer at Winchester seemed to defy "conventional logic" and recommended the 147gr. (NON +P) for short barreled guns, due to more dwell time in the barrel, thus a more complete powder burn, and less velocity loss.

A lot of folks always want the fastest thing they can get, but I've never bought into that argument.

I've always thought (as the Winchester letter appears to verify?) that you can't just make a blanket statement 'bout what works best - it all depends on a lot of variables (burn rate of the powder, bullet design, etc.).

Torian
March 31, 2013, 09:35 PM
I've only seen the 147 grain loads for LEOs used in carbines or subguns like the MP5. As others remarked on here, the prevalent loads were the Ranger SXT 127 +p+ loads and the HST.

tipoc
March 31, 2013, 10:03 PM
Why do law enforcement and civillians carry 147gr 9mm?

I agree with what others have said...by and large they don't. Meaning that law enforcement that use 9mm tend to go with the 115 and/or 124-127 gr, weights in a JHP. A few posters have explained some of the reasons behind the temporary favor the heavier bullets had in law enforcement. That lasted a few years but as better bullet designs appeared the trend receded. This was back in the 90s by the way.

The bulk of defensive ammo sold today is in the 115 and 124 gr. weights. There are more loads offered in these weights than in 147. That is because the more traditional weights sell more, including to regular shooters.

Mostly it's a matter of choice. Personal preference and reasoning.

then while does .357 mag beat .45acp in the manstopping department?

There is no real evidence that it does. Back in the day when some theorized this to be true there were many more good jhp bullets for the .357 Mag than for the 45acp. So the .357 developed quite a rep. It was also the case that more leos shot revolvers than semis, again this favored the .357.

The only "evidence" for the superiority of the .357 Mag comes from the "One Shot Stop" statistics of the writers Marshall and Sanow. Their evidence has been very controversial. But even they call them both about even with good bullets, if a fella bothers to read their books.

tipoc

351 WINCHESTER
March 31, 2013, 10:05 PM
Law enforcement tend to go with penetration as sometimes they have to shoot thru barriers.

tipoc
March 31, 2013, 11:00 PM
I'm posting here a few links to some resources where folks can see the results of various tests of different weight and types of 9mm ammo shot into and through a variety of things. Often when you take the time to study these you revise your opinions on what you thought you knew and took for granted.

Here is Brass Fetcher. A very useful sight both for their published data and for their slo-mo videos.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%20Luger/9x19mm%20Luger%20Summary%20Table.pdf

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9x19mmSlowMotion.htm

Ballistics by the Inch is also a useful site. Here they take barrels and cut them down and test for the velocity and energy. They also shoot from real world guns with different barrel lengths and provide info on that.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Maybe my favorite...The Box O Truth where they shoot a number of things with a wide variety of guns and ammo and show you the results.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

tipoc

theblaze
April 1, 2013, 01:17 AM
Some folks (seriously) believe that velocity is irrelevant when discussing pistol rounds.

They favor the 147 gr in 9mm.

That is as simple as I can state it.

Drail
April 1, 2013, 01:42 AM
Umm, maybe because they work well?

RBid
April 1, 2013, 01:52 AM
I don't think anybody believes that velocity is irrelevant. It is more likely accurate to say, "many people understand that velocity is just one of multiple relevant considerations".

theblaze
April 1, 2013, 02:00 AM
Perhaps not on this board, but there are people that literally believe (and demand) that velocity is irrelevant in pistol rounds, trust me.

This is a direct quote from another board:

"Velocity in a handgun is irrelevant as a wounding factor. All velocity does (when a proper bullet is assumed) is create a larger Temporary Wound Cavity."

I agree with you that it is one of many factors.

Not everyone agrees though.

Satasaurus
April 1, 2013, 03:09 AM
Perhaps not on this board, but there are people that literally believe (and demand) that velocity is irrelevant in pistol rounds, trust me.

This is a direct quote from another board:

"Velocity in a handgun is irrelevant as a wounding factor. All velocity does (when a proper bullet is assumed) is create a larger Temporary Wound Cavity."

I agree with you that it is one of many factors.

Not everyone agrees though.
I'm pretty sure that the 5.56 proves that velocity is relevant. If it wasn't going 3000 fps it would just be a souped up 22LR. I'm sure that it's not as much of a factor in handguns, but the real question is how much of a difference does 1000 fps vs 1500 fps make. Personally I think not much. The only exception that I can think of is the 357 Magnum, but the .45 is usually subsonic and it's been a proven man stopper for over 100 years. I'm sure the bad guy wouldn't know the difference between getting shot with a 124gr vs a 147 grain. I'd say get whatever is cheapest/ in stock and not worry about it.

9mmepiphany
April 1, 2013, 03:38 AM
"Velocity in a handgun is irrelevant as a wounding factor. All velocity does (when a proper bullet is assumed) is create a larger Temporary Wound Cavity."

I agree with you that it is one of many factors.

Not everyone agrees though.
The British certainly believed it after WW I were they replaced the .455 with the .38/200, which threw a 200gr soft lead bullet at 625 FPS...it is better known in this country as the .38 S&W (although with a lighter bullet). It was adopted for much the same reason as the 147gr 9mm slug...penetration.

It actually remained in UK service until it was replaced by the 9x19mm...loaded with the 124gr slug

thorazine
April 1, 2013, 04:45 AM
Why do law enforcement and civillians carry 147gr 9mm?

For suppressed shooting. :D

hseII
April 1, 2013, 08:49 AM
The British certainly believed it after WW I were they replaced the .455 with the .38/200, which threw a 200gr soft lead bullet at 625 FPS...it is better known in this country as the .38 S&W (although with a lighter bullet). It was adopted for much the same reason as the 147gr 9mm slug...penetration.

It actually remained in UK service until it was replaced by the 9x19mm...loaded with the 124gr slug

They Webley in a defensive discussion?Come On....

481
April 1, 2013, 12:37 PM
Perhaps not on this board, but there are people that literally believe (and demand) that velocity is irrelevant in pistol rounds, trust me.

This is a direct quote from another board:

"Velocity in a handgun is irrelevant as a wounding factor. All velocity does (when a proper bullet is assumed) is create a larger Temporary Wound Cavity."

I agree with you that it is one of many factors.

Not everyone agrees though.


I agree. Amazing what people believe/claim these days. Without velocity, the bullet is at rest.

481
April 1, 2013, 12:53 PM
Unlike a lot of people, I don't have a velocity fetish.

I use the Winchester White Box 147gr. JHP in all of my 9x19mm guns. Box 'O Truth tested them and they rated highly for BOTH penetration and expansion. They're very accurate and 100% reliable in my Browning Hi Power and Glock.

D-

I tested this round in water (a valid tissue simulant) quite some time ago and the analysis below uses the recovery data to yield a prediction of the test bullet's performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. I thought that it might be of interest to you.

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee436/Officer481/100_2247.jpg

Here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for the test:

WinchesterUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP (USA9JHP2) v. four layers of 2 ounce cotton fabric

Recovered Projectile Data:
Average Recovered Diameter: 0.583 inch (1.645x caliber)
Retained Mass: 147.6 grains
Impact Velocity: 979.2 feet per second

Predicted Performance in 10% Ordnance Gelatin:
Penetration Depth (S) = 33.508 cm (13.192 inches)
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (MPC) = 49.163 grams (1.734 ounces)


Although a lot of people dismiss it for being "old" and "cheap", I think it did surprisingly well for "economy" ammo.

:)

silversport
April 1, 2013, 01:14 PM
The history of the 147gr 9mm slug is pretty interesting. It was originally produced for use against sentries/guard dogs through a suppressed pistol and was loaded to sub-sonic velocities for that use.

The FBI Miami shootout aftermath committee studied different bullets to try to find a bullet that offered better stopping power. The 147gr loading was thrown in almost as an afterthought and surprised the testers with it's penetration. This lead to the FBI selecting this load as the stop gap to it's problems, while it conducted testing for a better caliber than the 9mm...which resulted in them adopting the 10mm S&W 1076 as an issue gun.

Unfortunately their adopting the 147gr sub-sonic JHP lead a lot of LE departments to adopt it as an issued loading for their 9mm pistols. The major attribute of the sub-sonic 147gr slug in LE work is accuracy.

The 9x19mm was designed with a 124gr slug and this is still an optimal bullet weight. Ammunition manufacturers have developed JHP technology of their premium defensive ammo to all meet the requirements set forth by federal research to the point that it doesn't really make a difference which JHP you pick.

What does matter much more is which loading you can make accurate and repeated hits on target with the most quickly.
Always pleased with your well thought out responses, thanks...this is how I recall it as well...I also recall early 147 Gr 9mm (Winchester subsonic) to fail to expand...but then that wasn't really its purpose at that time...

Bill

mavracer
April 1, 2013, 01:33 PM
"Velocity in a handgun is irrelevant as a wounding factor. All velocity does (when a proper bullet is assumed) is create a larger Temporary Wound Cavity."
I agree. Amazing what people believe/claim these days. Without velocity, the bullet is at rest.
It would be asinine to assume that this anonomous poster was talking about zero velocity vs some arbitrary velocity. Maybe he should have included the word "added" to eliminate the possibility but I'm sure someone will come along prove that assumption wrong.

9mmepiphany
April 1, 2013, 01:56 PM
I also recall early 147 Gr 9mm (Winchester subsonic) to fail to expand...but then that wasn't really its purpose at that time...

You are correct, it was one of the reasons I started carrying my own ammo on duty.

We even got the word, through the departmental armorer, to be careful using it in H&K P7 M8/13 or MP-5 as it might cause malfunctions

Madcap_Magician
April 1, 2013, 04:08 PM
If you compare any of the top dogs in the current defensive bullet field- Winchester Ranger or PDX1, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, and to a lesser extent, Remington Golden Saber, you'll find that all their loads for a given caliber perform about the same.

This is because all those loads are designed to meet more or less the same standard.

The 115-gr. loads will penetrate a little less, usually 11-12.5" in gel, and expand a bit more. The 147-gr. loads will penetrate a little more, usually 13-14.5", and expand a bit less. The 124-gr. and 127-gr. loads will be somewhere in between, with the exception of the 127-gr. +P+ Ranger-T load, which combines the best of both worlds with the recoil of a larger caliber and increased wear and tear on guns.

Older 147-gr. 9mm ammo like the Winchester Personal Protection white box load have more erratic expansion. The newer JHPs are designed to expand at a wider velocity range, whereas pistols would sometimes not push some of the older heavy bullets fast enough to cause expansion.

I carry 147-gr. Federal HST due to the high penetration for 9mm, decent expansion, and extremely low recoil compared to any of the +P loads.

silversport
April 1, 2013, 09:43 PM
You are correct, it was one of the reasons I started carrying my own ammo on duty.

We even got the word, through the departmental armorer, to be careful using it in H&K P7 M8/13 or MP-5 as it might cause malfunctions
I chose this for our department round back then...my brothers department had a shooting using the same round as they too had followed the FBI in using this cartridge...the bad guy was hit several times and gave up but only because more police were arriving and not because of the bullets...he survived and had little permanent damage...

Both of our departments switched cartridges just after the analysis was over...

Bill

RBid
April 2, 2013, 12:06 AM
I was checking some things out at M4 earlier, and saw that Doc Roberts made a comment about a department near him using 147gr HST. He added that rounds recovered after street shoots looked just like the promo art or gel tested samples. I've heard similar things about Gold Dots and PDX1s in various loads.

Inebriated
April 2, 2013, 02:12 AM
I'm all about penetration in handgun cartridges. FMJ is a liability, so the next best thing is 147gr Gold Dots or HSTs. Both expand reliably, and penetrate well.

I also get fuzzy inside with heavy-for-caliber loads, no matter the ballistic pros or cons.

iMagUdspEllr
April 3, 2013, 01:05 PM
All FMJs in all of the popular service calibers penetrate very deep (beyond 12-14"). Bullets with more mass in the same caliber penetrate further than bullets with less mass in the same caliber.

Problems begin when you start using hollow points. Hollow points expand earlier or later depending upon their design (decreasing or increasing penetration). Bullets travelling at higher velocities tend to expand earlier (decreasing penetration).

You have to look at how each attribute affects the overall performance.

You can use a 115gr 9mm with a late-expanding hollow point design and get the same penetration as a 147gr 9mm with a early-expanding hollow point design.

You need to actually look at how a particular hollow point performs in ballistic gelatin. You will find that there are loads across the weight range that will all penetrate 12-14". If they meet that penetration requirement. Then you can compare how big the bullet ends up.

SabbathWolf
April 3, 2013, 03:49 PM
I got a good deal on these a while back. They work great in my HK's, so that's all I care about really.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/15acd3f1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/HK-10_zpsa64c9ab0.jpg

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