Exotic 9mm Ammo.


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Thompsoncustom
April 2, 2013, 03:57 PM
Was bored today and looking around youtube a found a pretty good ballistics test on some MagSafe 60gr HP/shot ammo and I have to say I was impressed with its performance even out of a short barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjsQA6Emuc

Now I don't carry this ammo I use Speer Gold dot and/or PDX1 in my guns but none the less this seems like it would cause way more damage than a standard round to organs because of the spread your chances of hitting something vital go up by X 12 ( I think thats the number of #2 shot in there)

Just kind of wondering what everyones thoughts were on this crazy expensive ammo.

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Certaindeaf
April 2, 2013, 04:05 PM
It'd probably work good on rabbits. Did you mean 12 shot instead of 2?

firesky101
April 2, 2013, 04:24 PM
I bet it would be a mess for surgeons to clean up, but I would not think poking little holes through organs would drop anyone very quickly.

Thompsoncustom
April 2, 2013, 04:31 PM
Certaindeaf : #2 refers to the size of the shot.
seems like it would cause way more damage than a standard round to organs because of the spread your chances of hitting something vital go up by X 12 ( I think thats the number of #2 shot in there)
Grammer was never my best subject

firesky101:but I would not think poking little holes through organs would drop anyone very quickly.

Well one .45 would be better than one #2 shot through say the heart but I think a perforated heart would stop faster than one with a bigger hole really depends on how many hit that organ, but I think the biggest advantage to a round like this would the possibility of hitting 2 to 3 organs per shot.

Certaindeaf
April 2, 2013, 04:35 PM
I hear you. I think you meant 12 shot.. maybe I'm wrong though.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/shot_sizes.jpg

Either way, I'd not bother.

Thompsoncustom
April 2, 2013, 05:30 PM
No the guy is the vid said number 2 shot and I did some more looking online and this link also claims number 2 but it's in .45 acp.

A look at there website says they use #2 or #3 shot.

reference:
http://magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm


Also is this STRASBOURG TESTS real did they really go around and shoot 600 goats? If so I would like to see the results tho people are not goats still could be some useful data in there. Should have been 600 pigs would have been a better comparison I think as most hogs are stronger/tougher than humans.

Torian
April 2, 2013, 05:33 PM
I used the magsafe load in my sig 232. They were quite impressive. Tres expensive though.

C0untZer0
April 2, 2013, 06:30 PM
This isn't even tested against the 4 denim protocol or heavy clothing barrier test - just in plain gel, not one single projectile penetrated to 12"

Nearly 92% of the projectiles didn't even make it to 11"

Is the extra cost of the ammo for it's less than lethal qualities? Is the goal to try and not fatally injure someone?

Thompsoncustom
April 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
I'm not sure what there goal is but they do stat that it is design not to penetrate deeply. Is it worth the cost is a personal thing I think and no me it's not even cost at something like 3 dollars a round that's insane.

This isn't even tested against the 4 denim protocol
It would have been nice if they would have done the test with 4 layers of denim and forum a 5 inch barrel but I doubt there is a lot of testing being done on such a pricy round.

Edarnold
April 2, 2013, 11:08 PM
Blaser ammunition went (still goes?) the same route of using shot instead of a solid core inside the jacket. The Blaser ammunition supposedly was selected for use by Air Marshals to reduce the chance of unintended casualties from a shoot-out inside a crowded aircraft. The bullet fragments and stays inside the targeted individual, rather than penetrating and hitting the passenger behind them. Rumor says that effect of this ammunition on human targets is devastating due to tissue damage beyond what normal expanding bullets can produce.

Before somebody trots out the blessed wisdom of the FBI ' 12" rule ', can we look back in history to the time that FBI agents carried .357 Magnum revolvers, and their ballistic 'experts' decided that 9mm autos would be way better... Until agents got killed because the sanctioned 9mm loads didn't stop a hopped-up perp? So then the answer was the 147gr. 9mm, which somehow made the 9mm into a devastating manstopper... not. Then they decided the 10mm Auto (which duplicates .357 Magnum ballistics) was the ticket, except that it hurt the delicate little hands of some of their agents, so it got downgraded to the S&W 10mm Lite. And so on.

To make a long rant shorter: the FBI is not possessed of Divine Wisdom when it comes it comes to handgun ballistics. As the designated Federal 'experts' on such matters, they have to come up with some kind of standards to keep the politicians that control appropriations happy. To claim that a loading that creates lots of damage but ONLY penetrates 11" is a failure because it doesn't meet the FBI standard seems a little weird to me. Like saying you can have 10 round magazines, but you can only load 7 rounds in them...

IMHO

9mmepiphany
April 2, 2013, 11:49 PM
Blaser ammunition went (still goes?) the same route of using shot instead of a solid core inside the jacket.
Glaser; Blaser is the economy line from CCI

ku4hx
April 3, 2013, 06:58 AM
From time to time I read where one agency or another is investigating the use of "non lethal" ammunition. Mostly it seems to me the ammunition makers are just trying to make sales but that's a horse of a different color. Has any law enforcement agency adopted any of this "exotic" ammunition for regular/large scale use?

tipoc
April 3, 2013, 12:28 PM
A couple of decades back the FBI and Justice Dept. established their guidelines for how their ammo for law enforcement should work. They favored jhp rounds that did not break up and penetrated with expansion 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin after having passed through denim, etc. They still favor these parameters. They judge them as being most likely to stop an attack no matter the angle the bullet strikes the assailant by penetrating deeply enough to hit something vital. They do not favor handgun ammo that breaks up on impact. They do favor ammo that expands and retains it's weight.

The Glazer ammo seems like useful ammo against a dog perhaps. A small to mid sized dog.

A good rule of thumb is to avoid ammo that is sold in a blister pack.

tipoc

Thompsoncustom
April 3, 2013, 12:52 PM
Here is the results of the goat massacre:

http://guninstructor.net/Strasborg_Tests.pdf

Seems like this round does do well in incapacitation speed versus normal hollow points.

tipoc: Seems like good words to go by
A good rule of thumb is to avoid ammo that is sold in a blister pack.

Tho from a ballistics stand point these round seem to favor well or atleast they obliterate goats. :neener:

Walt Sherrill
April 3, 2013, 01:02 PM
If so I would like to see the results tho people are not goats still could be some useful data in there.

Goats were selected because certain breeds of mature, adult goats are quite similar, physiologically/structurally to humans in what I'd call the torso/trunk. I have not read anything about how viable such tests are (or were). Probably makes as much sense as relying on gelatin results, alone.

Certaindeaf
April 3, 2013, 01:47 PM
Goat is good eating. they are not hard to kill

If memory serves, I think they recommended a three inch ball going through both lungs

tipoc
April 3, 2013, 01:49 PM
The U.S. Army used goats on the rifle ammo tests in the post war period. The reason they used goats was due to the similarity in bone structure and density to humans. The bones in hogs are softer and fracture differently than the bones of goats or cows, as those of us who have chomped on the ribs of all three can tell you. So they used goats, the military did, in a number of tests where they were looking at damage to bone.

These were quite different tests from the Strassbourg tests.

tipoc

Thompsoncustom
April 3, 2013, 02:17 PM
these don't seem like they would be hard to make. If you take a copper jacketed hollow point and heat it up you can just pour out the lead and pack it with shot. I only have #8 and #6 in the house right now or I'd give it a try.

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