Stubborn Views


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wisconsin
April 3, 2013, 01:42 AM
I had an interesting experience at the range today. After testing out some new additions to my 1911 :cool: I got to talking 2A rights with 2 other guys there. When the oppositions views came into the talk I said "Well I dont agree, but I can see how they think that way..."

Before I could even finish that sentence both of them got into a mini uproar on how I was nuts to even thimk like that and how they cannot see it in any way, shape, or form and that there is no understanding liberal idiocy. They said how I couldnt be pro 2A and even consider the other sides points.

This got me thinking, is this a lone fluke and I just happened to run into the wrong people? Or are alot of gun owners stubborn in thier views to the point where we cannot put ourselves into the oppositions shoes? (In order to try and calm thier worries by thier logic)

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Solo
April 3, 2013, 04:40 AM
People, in general, are stubborn and unwilling to change their minds.

goon
April 3, 2013, 05:26 AM
I get some exposure to the other point of view.
Often it is based on emotion. There is a belief that I don't agree with that if guns are just more restricted, somehow it will make society safer.
I counter this by pointing out that there are so many guns, even the scary ones, in circulation that banning them will only make good people who obey the law easier prey.
The other emotion driven arguement I have heard recently was from someone who grew up in an urban area. He explained that his fear of guns came from the fact that people who looked like him who he grew up were killed with guns. No amount of arguing is going to change this deep seated fear and neither will name-calling.
The only thing that has had the slightest effect is continuing to be a decent guy while still tactfully defending the Second Amendment.

It is necessary to break the stereotype of the evil, cold-hearted NRA member that the media is so fond of portraying us as and demonstrate that we are real people.
It's a lot harder to for them to treat you like an enemy when you don't act like one. Helping someone with anti-gun views finish off a pizza and a six pack of Coors light can go further than all the long winded arguing in the world.

And I also admit that some of my views are emotion driven. I fear what can happen to my loved ones if I am unable to resist evil men.
Whether they agree with that or not, it's hard for anyone to hate you for feeling that way.

mcdonl
April 3, 2013, 07:51 AM
Emotion is right goon... My 16 year old daughter is taking AP classes to knock of some college credits... she is taking English Comp and she needed to write an argumentative paper. I advised against gun control as a topic because it is a liberal school and it will not go well.

She struggled to come up with arguments for gun control but proceeded anyway. Her teacher gave her a failing grade, despite he writing a good paper and she said she would not pass anyone who wrote a paper saying it was good for people own guns.

Because it is a college class, there is nothing I can do about it. Lesson learned.

kwguy
April 3, 2013, 08:02 AM
^^^ The EXACT thing happened to me when I was growing up (that's really wierd), except the topic was another hot button issue of the day: nuclear weapons. Totally based on emotion.

Carl N. Brown
April 3, 2013, 08:45 AM
I have heard the the theory that there are two types of people: those with small amygdalas--the part of the brain that deals with stress--who react with emotion, fear and panick, and people with larger amygdalas who react by calming and thinking their way out.

You can point out to the antigun folks that the CDC 2003 and NAS 2004 reviews of gun control policies found no measureable impact of gun control laws on gun violence whether suicide, homicide or accidents, and they will be WE have to DO something NOW and you are a heartless SOB for not joining the moral panick.

Doing something useless or counterproductive just to to be seen as doing something is all that counts because it demonstrates your feelings. These are the stampeding lemmings who joined the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare, and they long to bring Janet Reno or a Janet Reno back to the office at US Attorney General.

On the internet, they parrot the Obama Administration claim that 40% of gun sales are without a background check. And morph it into 40% of AR and AK sales are at gunshow without background checks to street criminals.

The Administration got the 40% from the NSPOF survey. You point out to them that the NSPOF survey found that 60% of gun acquisitions are through retail sales of new guns, the 40% are not all sales: 13% through private sales of used guns, 19% gifts, 3% trades, 5% inheritances. Of all the retail and private sales, gun shows + flea markets were only 4% of all gun acquisitions in that survey. And you point out that the Bureau of Justice Statistics felon survey found that criminals named guns shows as a gun source of less than 1% of crime guns.

They answer that the NSPOF survey you cited was 1994 and the Census Bureau felon survey for BJS was 1997, but because the messiah of hope and change frightened them just yesterday with "40%" and promised to fix it is all that counts. The Administration admits they got the 40% from the NSPOF survey, but the survey they cite does not support "40% of AR and AK sales are at gunshows without background checks to street criminals".

They (or the loudest ones) answer that you just listen to Faux News, you're compensating for an inadequate penis, and they (or at least "LALawyer") can't wait for us gunnuts to face a reckoning like Bill Clinton gave those other nuts at Waco, and quite frankly I get tired of trying to reason with these people.

What I have learned in fifty years is that the apriori assumption of an anti-gun ideologue is what makes the antigunner feel morally and intellectually superior, and questioning the cornerstone of their ego is too threatening to their sense of self-worth.

Agsalaska
April 3, 2013, 08:46 AM
One thing I have learned over time is not to argue with, try to reason with, or even correspond with people on the fringes. But you have to be able to understand opposing positions and have the ability to understand the rational behind those positions. The only way you are going to achieve that is thru dialog. It even happens on this board with all of the price gouging anger. I get the anger but think it is misplaced. I can debate it all you want as long as we all agree it is the companies decision. As soon as somebody tries to say the government should step in andset prices, I would consider that the fringe and not even bother to debate it. As for the broader gun control arguments, I can understand how some people can come to rationale that limits on 2a rights could lead to a safer country. I get why they think universal background checks, mandatory training, assault weapons bans, etc. could work. If I feel their intentions are true I can debate it all day. But as soon as someone says guns are bad or should be outlawed or something I just turn them off. If we can at least agree on some very basic fundamentals, lime the right to own a gun, it's not worth even getting into a discussion.

Lex Luthier
April 3, 2013, 08:46 AM
It's not stubborn, it's fundamentalism. Everybody has some form of fundamentalistic theory that backs up their intellectual worldview. If you want to be a mature and responsible member of society, you have to know what you think, know how you got there, and act daily on exactly what you believe.

Some people never get past the tidal emotional stage of ego development and actually figure out exactly what they believe, and how they should do things. We all know wishy-washy people who go through life in an undefined and emotionally based manner. Thank God there are still some parents who raise their kids to learn the truth about finances, politics, and the human condition. My dad was kind of a jerk, but I am surely grateful he taught me intellectual discernment.

Not to divert to a political thread, but many would use this logic to compare conservative and liberal thinking.

Outlaw Man
April 3, 2013, 10:01 AM
I think in some cases the difference between someone hearing out the other side and trying to have a productive conversation (not the "conversation" Obama wants) and someone completely ignoring the other side simply because they disagree comes down to whether they are pro-gun merely because they don't want their guns taken away or they're pro-gun because it is one of (and the final protector of) many fundamental rights. Those who are more libertarian (with a lowercase L) in their views tend to be more tolerant of others' views.

Not trying to get political, but I think it's based in something that often is a factor in forming one's political views.

ETA: after rereading Lex's post, I think we're basically saying the same thing.

mljdeckard
April 3, 2013, 10:19 AM
Some people say I'm stubborn. I reply to them; "I think I'm principled and focused, and you're so open-minded your brain has fallen out."

Torian
April 3, 2013, 10:23 AM
As a rule, I don't discuss politics with strangers. It is rarely a good topic to get to know people, break the ice, and form friendships.

With the current administration, it seems like this country is more divided than ever, and it doesn't take much to set off that powder keg.

Steel Horse Rider
April 3, 2013, 10:28 AM
Many poster's are correct in that the left operates from emotion and fear rather than logic and thought. Logic is rarely taught in the elementary grades as rote and technology are now used to "ease" the burden of learning to think. We are fighting a rear guard action to preserve the concept of free civilization. Once the guns are gone so will be the window of human self-determination.

Texan Scott
April 3, 2013, 11:06 AM
I have seen men die needlessly and badly. I understand fear, and pain, and grief, and anger. I understand that those feelings can drive people to extreme viewpoints in either direction. Because I've been there, I understand how they might FEEL.

I try not to be ruled completely by how I FEEL, however. People who give up trying to THINK and REASON through an issue tend to get bogged down at one extreme end or the other.

holdencm9
April 3, 2013, 11:12 AM
Don't you know you shouldn't even be able to see things from the other side at all? :rolleyes:

There are obviously some fringe anti's that I will never even begin to understand. But there are also many moderate (for lack of better term) anti's that are within reach, and I can at least see sort of where they are coming from. Not that I agree! (Before the flamers come for me). But I can understand why they think (or feel) the way they do. Understanding the mindset (or feel-set?) of the opposition is usually key to converting and/or defeating them.

Usually it stems from lack of exposure to anything firearms-related, over-exposure to news media that greatly sensationalizes any gun-related crime, a gross misunderstanding of the real risks in life, misunderstanding of the bill of rights and recent SCOTUS decisions including heller, mcD, and warren... no knowledge of statistics, and oftentimes, they were quite impressionable by their parents' views. I think any rational person who has thought about their position critically, and thoroughly vetted why they have the view they do, has to be able to step out of their shoes and evaluate it from the other side's perspective.

In many ways, this is why former anti's who converted are the best ally we have. They can say, "this is how I used to think...I was wrong, and naive, but that was me. Then I saw the light!" and discuss how they came around. This makes a much bigger impression on anti's than your lifelong gun owner who shot his first deer at age 8, has a safe full of scary black rifles, etc.

On the flip side, gun owners who like to throw other gun owners under the bus are the worst thing for our cause. You get hunters saying "I am a gun owner and totally support the 2nd amendment, but i have never seen the need for an AR-15!" and it emboldens the anti's. They say "see, even people on your own side don't agree with you!" It is frustrating. But such is life.

Creature
April 3, 2013, 11:25 AM
Welcome to 'Human Nature 101'.

kwguy
April 3, 2013, 11:25 AM
I have seen men die needlessly and badly. I understand fear, and pain, and grief, and anger. I understand that those feelings can drive people to extreme viewpoints in either direction. Because I've been there, I understand how they might FEEL.

I try not to be ruled completely by how I FEEL, however. People who give up trying to THINK and REASON through an issue tend to get bogged down at one extreme end or the other.

Exactly. It's difficult for many people to get through how they feel, and to actually get at the root of whatever it is that you are trying to deal with. I heard someone say once: Reality does not care one whit about how you 'feel'. And that's very true.

Creature
April 3, 2013, 11:33 AM
It's difficult for many people to get through how they feel, and to actually get at the root of whatever it is that you are trying to deal with. I heard someone say once: Reality does not care one whit about how you 'feel'. And that's very true.

Reality is perception. Perception is the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses. Reality is how your brain perceives what your senses provide it. Einstein wrote: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.". Your reality is not the same as mine, your neighbor's, the President's ... or anyone else's.

miller.lyte
April 3, 2013, 11:33 AM
Some folks on both sides actually believe that leaving your mind open enough to simply stand in anothers' shoes is like leaving your mind open to radiation - like the opposing viewpoint will fester in your mind and magically turn you into one of them (which is another problem). Some folks truly see only black or white and would prefer to ignore the validity of the gray areas because they are so intolerant and insecure in their beliefs.

I don't have the patience for those people. They're brick walls. Unfortunate fact of life.

Furncliff
April 3, 2013, 11:36 AM
[QUOTE] Or are alot of gun owners stubborn in thier views to the point where we cannot put ourselves into the oppositions shoes?/QUOTE]


^This.


You can usually tell if you're listening, by whether you're hearing a manic monologue.

Those seeking protection from idiotic gun laws have a similar pitch and cadence to their speech.

Drail
April 3, 2013, 11:37 AM
Americans have become the most misinformed and lied to people in the world. It's a never ending barrage from the media. I was taught at an early age to question everything. It has made me some enemies over the years but at least I can think for myself.

Creature
April 3, 2013, 11:41 AM
Americans have become the most misinformed and lied to people in the world. It's a never ending barrage from the media.

Orwell saw it coming a long time ago.

kwguy
April 3, 2013, 11:46 AM
Reality is perception. Perception is the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses. Reality is how your brain perceives what your senses provide it. Einstein wrote: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.". Your reality is not the same as mine, your neighbor's, the President's ... or anyone else's.

On many levels that's true, especially on a social level, but (and you've seen this, I'm sure) many people bury their head in the sand and deny reality.

Just an example: Reality, an asteroid is coming to destroy life on the planet. People may feel differently about it. Some may deny it, and their perceptions will prove them correct, because they can't see or hear it coming. Some may ignore it, some may scream and rant and be angry and mob up. And some may work through their emotions and design spaceships and escape. Different feelings, but the same reality.

fallout mike
April 3, 2013, 11:52 AM
I always try to understand where someones opposing views from me come from. If you can grasp that then it really helps you to make your points to them. If you refuse to try to see their rationale then you are just arguing blindly.

22-rimfire
April 3, 2013, 11:56 AM
People can have opposing views. I try to understand both sides of an issue as best I can. The gun control topic is very emotion driven on both sides. There are facts. But the facts often get twisted or only partially reported in order to support ones views.

Domina
April 3, 2013, 02:21 PM
I have some misgivings about the application of the term "stubborn" here. I'm sure many would characterize me as stubborn in my support of the right of the people to keep and bear arms, their right to keep arms of military character, and the applicability of this to the strengthening of the national defense posture. I am not unwavering in support of these principles out of unthoughtful stubborness, but rather out of deeply researched and considered convictions. There are many reasonable concerns and thoughts about how to maintain a well armed populace safely, but I am not going to give up on what I feel are fundamental principles to sustain a free society just to be considered "reasonable". Though I will gladly explain in detail why those principles are overriding of many "reasonable" ideas all the day long.

Perhaps the concern is not so much "stubbornness" which is about willingness to change one's views, than about a willingness to engage intellectually to understand other points of view and offer a reasoned counter position where it exists. Perhaps though many don't have the patience to argue all day however and just cut the discussion short with their core view, and that's what is being observed here.

mrvco
April 3, 2013, 02:39 PM
I understand the nanny-stater / do-gooder thought process... just make a law outlawing whatever things you consider bad and those things will no longer be a problem. (or at least you can now ignore them because you "did your best").

It's a lot easier on the nanny-stater / do-gooder conscious to blame an "illegal gun" than it is a "bad person w/ a legal gun".

That certainly does not mean that I agree with that mentality.

beatledog7
April 3, 2013, 02:48 PM
The ability to understand and express the other side's perspective (I won't call the anti-gun perspective an argument, since argument is predominantly rational) makes one's argument stronger and tends to downplay any sense of bias.

SabbathWolf
April 3, 2013, 03:12 PM
I tried walking a mile in the other sides shoes, but they didn't fit, and I couldn't even make it out of my front yard.

goon
April 4, 2013, 01:19 AM
Emotion is right goon... My 16 year old daughter is taking AP classes to knock of some college credits... she is taking English Comp and she needed to write an argumentative paper. I advised against gun control as a topic because it is a liberal school and it will not go well.

I wrote the same paper your daughter wrote in an AP Senior English class in high school.
My teacher was a raving liberal who intensely disliked firearms.
I got an A.
I profoundly disagreed with her, but she taught me a lot more about tolerance than she was getting paid for.

Big_John1961
April 4, 2013, 01:23 AM
Emotion is right goon... My 16 year old daughter is taking AP classes to knock of some college credits... she is taking English Comp and she needed to write an argumentative paper. I advised against gun control as a topic because it is a liberal school and it will not go well.

She struggled to come up with arguments for gun control but proceeded anyway. Her teacher gave her a failing grade, despite he writing a good paper and she said she would not pass anyone who wrote a paper saying it was good for people own guns.

Because it is a college class, there is nothing I can do about it. Lesson learned.
That is major BS. A close-minded person like that should not be allowed to teach at all, let alone a college credit course to a high schooler. What a joke. I would try to raise some kind of stink about this.

Ignition Override
April 4, 2013, 01:35 AM
Big_John: Yes. I would also raise a stink if it were easy to travel to that college dept.

thorazine
April 4, 2013, 05:46 PM
I got to talking 2A rights with 2 other guys there.

I would have just told you I was a commie that wanted to ban all guns and went back to shooting. =D

There is nothing I can't stand more than someone that wants to chit chat during range time... some places charge by the hour. =/

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