IMR-4227 burning?


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Buck13
April 5, 2013, 03:18 AM
Does IMR-4227 ever burn completely? I made up a few 180 grain XTPs with CCI standard primers and 13 grains of powder, and had a bunch of unburned powder in a trail down the barrel.

Got some Federal magnum SP primers and tried those with 11.2 grains of powder under 173 grain SWC out of the 358429 mold. (Yes, those are over the OAL spec. in untrimmed brass, and barely fit the length of my GP100 cylinder.) I used what I think is a pretty firm crimp, shown below. I made and shot a dozen of these today. None of the bullets jumped enough to cause trouble. Still some unburned powder; probably less than before, but haven't shot them side-by-side to be sure

Is some incomplete burning just SOP with this stuff, or what? Needz moar pressure?

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/7963/img7733iu.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/img7733iu.jpg/)

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JRH6856
April 5, 2013, 04:05 AM
It will probably burn completely in a rifle case.

According to QuickLoad, with 11.2 gr. you are probably at or very near capacity in .357 and you are probably getting around 19000psi. and 970-1000fps. And burning just a little over half the powder (55%). I can't even find a compressed load that will stay within pressure limit and burn more than 64%.

Jesse Heywood
April 5, 2013, 04:40 AM
I like the way 4227 shoots, very accurate loads. But there is always some unburnt residue. I have the best results with compressed or full case loads and have learned to always use magnum primers.

JRH6856
April 5, 2013, 05:13 AM
I wonder if it would help to back off the load and use a small rifle primer. They are designed to ignite a lot more powder than pistol primers, but you do need to back off the load, maybe 15% or more and work up a new load.

USSR
April 5, 2013, 07:57 AM
You will always get unburned particles with 4227. However, as Jesse Heywood said, it seems to produce very accurate loads in spite of this.

Don

Walkalong
April 5, 2013, 08:25 AM
Did the same thing in .44 Mag in a carbine for me. Very accurate, but a touch of unburned powder. Those were some of my very first reloads.

Buck13
April 5, 2013, 11:07 AM
OK, I will ignore the frass and keep blasting away with this stuff, at least until I run out of magnum primers.

Edarnold
April 5, 2013, 05:45 PM
IMR 4227 is a small rifle powder, and does fine in that application. I loaded many rounds of ..28-30, .32-40 and .38-55 with lead bullets when I was shooting in ASSRA competition, and 4227 burned cleanly and completely in those low pressure loads. It's just not ideal for magnum handgun loads, even with heavy bullets, because there isn't enough barrel time to get complete combustion.

IMHO

buck460XVR
April 5, 2013, 07:06 PM
IMR 4227 is my go to powder in handgun caliber carbines and long pipe magnum revolvers. Nothing I've found matches it's accuracy in my P.C. X-Frame. While it does not quite produce the velocities of H110/W296, it does seem less temperature sensitive. In shorter barreled revolvers it will leave what looks like dark sawdust behind.

Peter M. Eick
April 5, 2013, 07:14 PM
Load it in a 357 Maximum and I get nearly perfect burn. I use small rifle primers though and max charges in general.

thagunman
April 5, 2013, 09:45 PM
works perfect in my 7.62x39 loads

bluetopper
April 6, 2013, 12:48 AM
I personally think 4227 powder burns a bit too slow for 44 Mag and especially so for 357 Mag for optimum performance.

osprey176
April 6, 2013, 02:25 AM
I get some unburned powder in my Super Blackhawk,but none with my 30 Herrett Contender with a 14"barrel.

Buck13
April 6, 2013, 01:31 PM
IMR 4227 is my go to powder in handgun caliber carbines and long pipe magnum revolvers. Nothing I've found matches it's accuracy in my P.C. X-Frame. While it does not quite produce the velocities of H110/W296, it does seem less temperature sensitive. In shorter barreled revolvers it will leave what looks like dark sawdust behind.

Exactly what I'm seeing. It's a 4" GP100, so rather on the short side. I consider 6" standard for revolvers, but currently I have only a .22 in that length.

MSgtEgress
April 6, 2013, 04:46 PM
The relative burn rate of 4227 is actually a little slower than H110/WW296. I would always use a magnum pistol primer or even a small rifle and always stay within 10% of max listed loads. Only load listed on the Hodgdon site is 140g FTX with 11.0g min 13.0g max about 33,000 psi so with that heavy a bullet you are just guessing. My favorite powder with 180g lead TC is 10.0g Blue Dot

Steve C
April 7, 2013, 06:31 AM
Nothing burns completely to gas, all powder leaves solid residue or some sort. The problem is IMR4227 is probably the slowest powder that you can load in the .357 and .44 mag. Leaving some residue is just one of the issues you have when loading the powder and one of the things that need to be accepted if you use it for handgun loads.

Buck13
April 7, 2013, 01:26 PM
The relative burn rate of 4227 is actually a little slower than H110/WW296. I would always use a magnum pistol primer or even a small rifle and always stay within 10% of max listed loads.

Why? I know H110 is said to do bad things when loaded light, but I have not heard that said of IMR-4227.

Lyman 49th has the 4227 starting load for 358429 bullet at 9.8 grains @ 845 fps @14,100 CUP and the maximum at 14.5 grains @ 1233 fps @ 40,800 CUP. (By comparison, H110 goes only from 14.4 to 15 grains and 33,500 to 40,900 CUP.)

Lyman data for 2400 has a similarly wide range of pressures; AA#9 a narrower range like H110. I am a noob, but my understanding is that you can't predict much based solely on the position in the burn rate table.

Walkalong
April 7, 2013, 01:30 PM
Why?Only reason I know of is it will get dirtier and leave even more unburned powder.

I am a noob, but my understanding is that you can't predict much based solely on the position in the burn rate table. I agree. The position on a burn chart gives a little insight, but not much, and the burn rate in comparison to other powders can change from caliber to caliber. The burn rate charts on based on "closed bomb" tests, and actual burn rate in a certain caliber depends on other factors.

MSgtEgress
April 7, 2013, 04:06 PM
Buck, If you look and Min - Max loads in the Hodgdon/IMR reload guide of both IMR & H 4227, the min loads are all about 90% of max. The slower powders will always burn more efficiently and evenly at higher pressures. Additionally, H4227 has more recipes than IMR. The max load for a 180g Partition was 13.7g and the min 12.7g That is 93% of max load. The 170 Sierra JHC was 14.5g max and 13.0g min that is 89.6% of max load.

I also think the Lyman data is a little dated as CUP (copper units of pressure) is not really used any more for load development and is NOT interchangeable with PSI. Most are now measured in PSI using piezio strain gauges. Max for .357 is about 43,000 psi.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf


For H4227 minimum pressure seems to run around 33,000 psi except for the 110g bullet, the max pressure is around 42,000 psi or a range of about 9,000 psi. If you compare those working pressures of WW296/H100 they are as much as 15,000 psi difference between min and max loads.

That is WHY I said, stay within 10% of max loads

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

buck460XVR
April 7, 2013, 05:27 PM
Buck, If you look and Min - Max loads in the Hodgdon/IMR reload guide of both IMR & H 4227, the min loads are all about 90% of max. The slower powders will always burn more efficiently and evenly at higher pressures. Additionally, H4227 has more recipes than IMR.




If you go to the .44 mag rifle recipes there you'll see they list the exact same powder charges for H4227 and IMR 4227 and that those charges produce the exact same pressures and velocities........same as they do for H110/W296. This tends to tell me that both the IMR4227 and the H4227 are now the same powder, even tho H4227 has been discontinued. I e-mailed Hodgdon about this and they said no. A while later another member here or on another forum e-mailed them and the same tech person told them yes. Also their .357 handgun shows no loads with IMR4227 and their .44 handgun loads show no data with H4227....even tho they list both in .44 rifle. :banghead:

Confusing, eh?

Buck13
April 8, 2013, 11:08 AM
I e-mailed Hodgdon about this and they said no. A while later another member here or on another forum e-mailed them and the same tech person told them yes.
Confusing, eh?

I think that was me.

To make it even more confusing, I found another forum (several, actually) where it was stated that the original IMR4227 was made in Canada, and H4227 in Australia. But now "IMR4227" made in Australia, and is really the old H4227, called IMR because that trademark sold better before the merger. :banghead::fire::banghead:

I didn't even BOTHER asking Hodgdon tech support if this was true, on the assumption that if they gave opposite answers to the simple question about load data, they were not likely to clarify anything about their proprietary business dealings!

Other than the fun of excessive recoil, I have no reason to go b's to the wall with my reloads, so I'll just stay below ANY 4227 max load I see by a little.

Doc.Holliday
April 9, 2013, 03:08 PM
I have NEVER got it to burn completely in my 45 colt revolver or rifles. From min to max powder and crimp. Mag primers as well = crud in barrel.
On the plus side it is one of my best powders for accurate loads.
In my Winchester 32 special it gives a complete burn and is plenty accurate with my cast bullets

Doc.

DWFan
April 10, 2013, 04:35 PM
Current IMR4227 is H4227 (ADI 2205). The original DuPont powder was discontinued when Hodgdon's took over but they kept the IMR name. 4227 was a good powder for the .357 Mag before SAAMI dropped the maximum pressure for the .357 to 35 kpsi. If you want a clean burning powder, try Scots 4100 from Accurate Arms or Enforcer from Ramshot; they are the same powder (as each other, NOT 4227).and work exceptionally well.

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