Is Controlled Round Feed a Must in a Scout Rifle?


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CmdrSlander
April 6, 2013, 12:48 AM
Grizzly Custom and a few other companies offer Scout Rifles in push feed (Remington 700, Savage 10) actions, but I always felt that a good scout needs controlled round feeding for reliability. I'm not a CRF zealot, certainly not in more traditional bolt actions, but it seems like the scout concept demands it.

Thoughts?

Here's an Remington 700 scout for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.grizzlycustom.com/new/pagephotos/scout_left_rear_1.jpg

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ironworkerwill
April 6, 2013, 01:34 AM
I don't have to have a crf, but my go-to gun is an M77. Savage makes crf bolt heads that will replace the factory push feed.

jmr40
April 6, 2013, 02:00 AM
I too much prefer CRF on a bolt rifle, but no. CRF is very much misunderstood. Under normal circumstances PF is at least as reliable, and in an position including upside down. In many cases more reliable. CRF is much more durable and reliable when the rifle is filthy, or has been abused. Conditons most people never find themselves in.

The way I see it I may well never find myself in a situation where I truly need CRF, but there is no downside to selecting a rifle with a CRF action vs a PF action. So why not choose a rifle with a CRF action.

Savage makes crf bolt heads that will replace the factory push feed.

I've never seen this, but even if they do it takes much more than a bolt head to make a CRF rifle. The blade ejector a key part of the action and is more important than the bolt head. Early Rugers had the claw extractor, but were not considered CRF because they still had the spring loaded button ejector. This is the weakest link in a PF action.

Welding Rod
April 6, 2013, 02:55 AM
I have owned a Ruger Hawkeye or two that would let the cartridge out of the feed lips before the rim was under extractor. Others worked as designed...... Ruger QC.....

ironworkerwill
April 6, 2013, 04:08 AM
The crf bolt face for Savage rifles are available from Midway. They are $24.99 and are slotted for the extractor blade.

Float Pilot
April 6, 2013, 04:55 AM
There was a period of five years or so when I hunted with a push feed post 64 model 70.
(custom in 358 Norma Mag)
All my CRF buddies gave me a hard time and I ignored them until one day when my dirty ejector button (blowing sand-bar grit) caused my rifle to not pick up a round from the magazine during a Brown Bear charge. TWICE... Because the empty case just stayed in place...

NEVER AGAIN...

Now I only hunt with rifles with big claw extractors and fixed ejector blades.

Cousin
April 6, 2013, 02:01 PM
I've tested my 700 to see if I could lose a round while feeding the chamber, sideways, upside down, pointed up, pointed down, fast and extremely slow.

Never dropped a round and no failure to feed.

Only use it for whitetails around home though, so it gets cleaned alot.

Gordon
April 6, 2013, 02:29 PM
The original Jeff Cooper Scout Rifles were Remington 600s as are mine which I had built in the late 70s. My 600 scout feeds upside down if worked briskly. I have hunted with it 30 years and dragged them thru Az. training classes sand with nary a glitch. The Blessed Colonel's final scout on the Steyr platform was not CRF. That said I think ideally 98 Mauser , or a Model 70 CRF properly set up IS more reliable ultimately AND conventional positioned optics with back up irons accessible is a better system all around.

jungle
April 6, 2013, 02:35 PM
If it is any help, 99% plus of rifles used in hunting the most dangerous critter of all are NOT controlled round feed. It makes no difference in practical terms.

1858
April 6, 2013, 02:52 PM
I have CRF and PF rifles, and in my opinion a good extractor is far more important than whether or not the action/bolt is PF or CRF.

jmr40
April 6, 2013, 02:55 PM
I have owned a Ruger Hawkeye or two that would let the cartridge out of the feed lips before the rim was under extractor. Others worked as designed...... Ruger QC.....

Almost all CRF rifles will do this and it is not a problem. The term CRF is confusing. All rifles, PF and CRF will "FEED" into the chamber equally well. It is with extraction and ejection where CRF rifles have an advantage, especially when rifles or ammo are filthy or the rifle has been abused beyond what most people would do.

If I were to drop my rifle out of a boat in Alaska and have to fish it out of the mud and fire 2-3 quick shots to stop a bear charge I'd want a CRF rifle. Otherwise there simply ain't much difference. Any rifle will feed equally well upside down or from any other angle.

The crf bolt face for Savage rifles are available from Midway. They are $24.99 and are slotted for the extractor blade.

I think found the part you are talking about.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/848974/savage-arms-bolt-head-long-action-savage-116-right-hand-control-feed-remington-ultra-magnum-and-winchester-short-magnum-wsm

I'd like to know more. I've never seen a Savage with a blade ejector, all have been a spring loaded button in the boltface. Is this something available just on certain models? Can any rifle be fitted, you'd have to replace more than the boltface. There would also have to be some milling on the receiver to also install an ejector.

1858
April 6, 2013, 03:15 PM
All my CRF buddies gave me a hard time and I ignored them until one day when my dirty ejector button (blowing sand-bar grit) caused my rifle to not pick up a round from the magazine during a Brown Bear charge. TWICE... Because the empty case just stayed in place...

I haven't heard of any ejection issues with AIs in Iraq or Afghanistan and yet a bunch of them have seen duty over there in very harsh conditions. AIs have a plunger ejector in the bolt face and when AI introduced the "improved" AX model they had the opportunity to address any issues but clearly the ejector wasn't one of them.

CmdrSlander
April 6, 2013, 03:19 PM
Almost all CRF rifles will do this and it is not a problem. The term CRF is confusing. All rifles, PF and CRF will "FEED" into the chamber equally well. It is with extraction and ejection where CRF rifles have an advantage, especially when rifles or ammo are filthy or the rifle has been abused beyond what most people would do.

If I were to drop my rifle out of a boat in Alaska and have to fish it out of the mud and fire 2-3 quick shots to stop a bear charge I'd want a CRF rifle. Otherwise there simply ain't much difference. Any rifle will feed equally well upside down or from any other angle.



I think found the part you are talking about.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/848974/savage-arms-bolt-head-long-action-savage-116-right-hand-control-feed-remington-ultra-magnum-and-winchester-short-magnum-wsm

I'd like to know more. I've never seen a Savage with a blade ejector, all have been a spring loaded button in the boltface. Is this something available just on certain models? Can any rifle be fitted, you'd have to replace more than the boltface. There would also have to be some milling on the receiver to also install an ejector.
Its a factory replacement part for long action Savages that are already controlled round feed, aka, their Alaskan and Dangerous Game series. You can't convert a non CRF to a PF with that.

Welding Rod
April 6, 2013, 03:34 PM
Almost all CRF rifles will do this and it is not a problem.

It mat not be a problem, but it isn't a crf when the rim is not under / retained by (controlled by) the extractor after it has popped out of the magazine.

Float Pilot
April 6, 2013, 05:34 PM
The middle bolt is a CONTROLLED FEED Husqvarna bolt from a 1640 Series action (30-06)
The right side is a Winchester model 70 post-64 push feed
and the left side is a M-700 Remington push feed Titanium Mountain Rifle

Note the comparative extractor sizes. The solid one piece Mauser type claw and the others which are small parts which are activated by an even smaller spring.

The Mauser style ejector is a fixed piece of steel blade that the case head slams into when the bolt drags it all the way to the rear.

The push feed ejectors on the M-70 and M-700 are a spring loaded button plunger.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177597&d=1358053564

Sheepdog1968
April 6, 2013, 06:40 PM
The original Jeff Cooper Scout Rifles were Remington 600s as are mine which I had built in the late 70s. My 600 scout feeds upside down if worked briskly. I have hunted with it 30 years and dragged them thru Az. training classes sand with nary a glitch. The Blessed Colonel's final scout on the Steyr platform was not CRF. That said I think ideally 98 Mauser , or a Model 70 CRF properly set up IS more reliable ultimately AND conventional positioned optics with back up irons accessible is a better system all around.
Any chance we could see photos of your scout?

briansmithwins
April 6, 2013, 08:05 PM
Just wondering, why do all the self loading rifles get along fine using push feed?

BSW

CmdrSlander
April 6, 2013, 11:30 PM
Just wondering, why do all the self loading rifles get along fine using push feed?

BSW
Several Reasons:

-More refined action designs.
-More protected bolts and bolt faces (with the exception of M1s and M14s most autoloaders aren't open at the top like bolt guns).
-Much more power than a human could ever provide dedicated to working the bolt.

...additionally - bolt actions are still the gun of choice for dangerous game, where reliability is absolutely paramount, thus this argument matters more in the bolt action category.

and finally...

The CRF vs. Push Feed debate is kind of like the Piston vs. Direct Impingement debate, both are valid and both have advantages. We wouldn't be arguing if one was a clear winner. If they made CRF autoloaders than we would be having this debate about them too but they don't so we don't.

Jim Watson
April 7, 2013, 10:03 AM
Well, they do - or did - make CRF autoloaders.
One was the BAR. The real army weapon, not the modern hunting rifle.

HOOfan_1
April 7, 2013, 10:49 AM
My cz550's crf has given me more problems than my Remington 700 push feed

briansmithwins
April 7, 2013, 12:23 PM
Well, they do - or did - make CRF autoloaders.
One was the BAR. The real army weapon, not the modern hunting rifle.

From the pictures of the bolt I can find online of the Browning Automatic Rifle it looks like the bolt has a small spring powered extractor.

BSW

45_auto
April 7, 2013, 01:17 PM
-Much more power than a human could ever provide dedicated to working the bolt.

No way a semi-auto even comes close to the power a human provides camming a bolt open or closed. Only thing closing the bolt on your semi-auto is the recoil spring. It provides the exact same amount of power closing the action that you put into pulling the bolt open against it - that's not much.

That's why you can get away with neck-sizing your bolt action brass. Try feeding some neck-sized brass through your semi and watch it choke when it can't close the bolt.

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