Trim, point, or both?


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Orkan
April 7, 2013, 12:19 AM
Do you trim meplats, use a pointing die, or do you trim meplats and then point?

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rcmodel
April 7, 2013, 01:01 AM
I do neither, so I guess I won't vote in this election.

Unless you are shooting 1,000+ yard competition, there is no logical reason to do either to get exceptional accuracy at normal benchrest, big game, or varmint hunting ranges.

rc

esheato
April 7, 2013, 01:13 AM
I don't currently do either and I've done a bit of 1k and further stuff.

FWIW, I've read that bullet tips aren't nearly as important as the bases. I've also read about trimming meplats, but can't say I've ever felt the need to do them.

I have shot 6" at 1k with a 243 and smaller than that with my 338. It begs the question, why bother? I'm all ears if it works.....

Proof is in the pudding though...put some bullets on paper and see.

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 01:28 AM
I do neither, so I guess I won't vote in this election.

Unless you are shooting 1,000+ yard competition, there is no logical reason to do either to get exceptional accuracy at normal benchrest, big game, or varmint hunting ranges.

rc Do you do neither because you tried it, and found no benefit?

Or are you simply saying there is no benefit, but you have not tried it?

Walkalong
April 7, 2013, 09:26 AM
I've read that bullet tips aren't nearly as important as the basesThey are not. The base is all important in accuracy, assuming concentric bullets with quality jackets from a quality swaging die. I can shoot match bullets with bad tips into bug holes at 100 and 200 yards. I am certain a bad tip affects drag and therefore will make a difference at long distance, but we are talking bad tips here, not good tips which are very slightly different from each other, as in quality match bullets.

There is no consensus on this, even among match shooters, whether it is 100/200 yard Benchrest or some kind of long range match shooting.

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 11:51 AM
There is no consensus on this, even among match shooters This article would suggest otherwise: http://www.6mmbr.com/bulletpointer.html

Is there a way to easily edit poll options? I'd like to add a couple for those that don't do either.

243winxb
April 7, 2013, 12:24 PM
Some hollow point were so uneven, i run a test years ago. The trimmed meplat was more accurate. Trimmed using a file & eye balled it. Edit/add- Match grade bullets will not have a major problem. They may be off a little, but the hunting types seem to have worse meplats @ times. The one 85 gr hpbt i been using for many years, can be very accurate, most of the time. Other times groups have measured 3" @ 100 yds with a 1 bad lot of bullets. Nothing will fix them.

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 12:33 PM
After meplat trimming, have you weighed the trimmed bullets to see what the weight difference was compared to untrimmed?

Walkalong
April 7, 2013, 12:33 PM
This article would suggest otherwise:I have read that before. Good article on the subject. That is an article saying it works, and even there the tendency is to try to sell things. I based my opinion on actual shooters on the line. Not everyone thinks it works, or at the very least, thinks it is worth the effort. IMHO an consensus is when everyone agrees, and not everyone does. :)

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 12:41 PM
I based my opinion on actual shooters on the line. Which discipline/discipline's are those shooters engaged in?

Walkalong
April 7, 2013, 06:29 PM
Buy all the goodies, then see if you can prove it one way or the other. :)

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 07:24 PM
I still would like to know which discipline the shooters you are referring to are engaged in, if you wouldn't mind.

Walkalong
April 7, 2013, 09:50 PM
Benchrest and F Class. Second hand from other stuff.

There are so many things that make such a much big, and proven, difference, and it is so hard to shoot well enough to prove tipping bullets can give you .???? of your agg, that I would recommend you spend your money elsewhere first.

I never did either in Benchrest, and I have no intention to do so in F Class that I just started shooting in. Too many other things to work on that will make a much bigger difference, if indeed meplat trimming and/or pointing works. It definitely won't make a shot a 1/4" out of the X ring an X.


If you are an experienced match shooter at the top of your game, I say go for it and see if it helps. If not, I suggest your spend your money and your energy elsewhere.

I do not know how to add another option in the poll, or I would add it for you. AC

dsm
April 7, 2013, 10:03 PM
I shoot 1K BR and I trim and then point with Hoover tools. I did a side by side test at 1K shooting the Sierra 6mm 107 SMK's out of a 6mm Dasher going around 2950. I saw a gain of 8-10" of vertical with the trimmed/pointed bullets. In this particular bullet, pointing does work at long range. I can't speak for anything else though. Most likely, results will definitely vary with bullet/load/caliber combination.

I currently shoot the Berger 105 Hybrids right now and I am trimming and pointing them for 1K competition. I never did a side by side test with them.

To the OP, what discipline do you plan on shooting and what type of equipment are you using?

The reason I ask, pointing is just a tiny piece of the puzzle if you want to shoot small at 1K.

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 10:20 PM
dsm, thanks for you response. I'm a long range hunter and competitor. I've considered trimming/pointing and wanted to know who's doing it, and what kind of results they've achieved. The question of trimming/pointing came up on my forum a couple days ago, which renewed my interest.

Walkalong
April 7, 2013, 10:26 PM
I saw a gain of 8-10" of vertical with the trimmed/pointed bulletsThat kind of gain would be worth the trouble for anyone shooting long distance. I can only assume it would help with wind drift as well if it can do that to bullet drop with no increase in muzzle velocity. Pointing makes sense that the bullet would have a hair less drag, and I guess to point bullets one would need to trim first for consistency in the pointing.

So it makes sense to me to trim and then point, if one wants to point bullets. Since I am shooting F class at 300 yards at our range, I doubt I will try it, but who knows, maybe I'll get to shoot at 1K one day, and then it may make sense to try it.

dsm
April 7, 2013, 10:31 PM
For the most part, pointing is pretty much secluded to 1K BR guys. I'd definitely steer clear of pointing if you plan on using the bullets for hunting. If your competition rig is not a BR or F-Class set up, I'd probably hold off on pointing.

dsm
April 7, 2013, 10:41 PM
Yeah, at 1K, every little itty bitty thing you can do or think that helps, will definitely help out. The whole thing is a nice mental game, LOL. Each person has their own thing, if you know what I mean

I trim the bare bones minimum off, just enough to square up the point. And before trimming, the entire lot is sorted on a bullet comparator(I use a Mark King unit). The Sierras vary a bunch, so if they are not sorted, some bullets will be trimmed more than others. Bergers are much much better.

At 300, I doubt you would want to try it either. Then again, I shoot pointed bullets at 100, 300 and 500 groundhog shoots. I can't tell you if there is a difference at 300 or 500 because I never spent the time to find out. Since I use the same guns, I shoot my same 1K load.

Definitely a lot of work involved. I do a little bit at a time once set up.

FROGO207
April 7, 2013, 11:10 PM
For my two cents I am with RC due to the distances I shoot at, there would be no measurable improvement after spending all the cash for the goods to improve the bullets. Long range shooter I am not. 200 YDS at the most for my shots.:D

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 11:19 PM
I spend my time shooting at 600-2400yds. That's why I'm curious about the prospect.

Walkalong, that's why I was unsure of your remark of there being no consensus. Thus far, everyone that I've talked to that does it, has seen a performance increase similar to that which dsm is reporting. What you were saying was in direct opposition to what I've found to date. I just wanted to be sure of your information source before accepting it. This is a highly technical topic, so I hope you don't take offense at me trying to be sure how the dissenting view was formed. :)

My next question would then be on bullet performance on game. I'm curious if anyone has shot a deer/elk/ or other big game at distance with a trimmed/pointed bullet?

dsm
April 7, 2013, 11:25 PM
My next question would then be on bullet performance on game. I'm curious if anyone has shot a deer/elk/ or other big game at distance with a trimmed/pointed bullet?

I would not even think about shooting game with a pointed bullet. With the tip closed, expansion would be extremely questionable. I highly doubt you will find anyone doing this.

Orkan
April 7, 2013, 11:59 PM
Do you do any long range hunting dsm?

dsm
April 8, 2013, 12:35 AM
Naaa...I don't hunt much anymore.

Orkan
April 8, 2013, 02:35 AM
The bullets I've used in the past for big game at long range are match bullets. They are notorious for not opening up under some circumstances. There are many reasons for this outside of the bullet design. Granted, match bullets are definitely not designed for hunting. However, accuracy is the key component to a long range kill. Even bullets designed for hunting can and have failed at distance due to those hunting bullets not functioning at the lower velocities produced by extended ranges.

Thus, there are a different set of considerations for long range kills where you can not implicitly rely on hydrodynamic shock or superior bullet expansion to get the killing done.

It is for these reasons that I would consider using a pointed bullet if it provided increased accuracy at distance. Also, I'm typically using a 338LM, so I'm accustomed to pass-through's anyhow. I've yet to lose an animal, and I don't intend to start... so obviously I'd like some accounts of first hand experiences before I try it. If there are none, well I'll have to do some testing of my own, and let the outcome of those tests decide whether I'll give it a go.

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