SHOOTING GALLERY needs a new "Hero!"


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MBane666
March 15, 2004, 01:21 PM
Hi all;

I'm the host of the hit Outdoor Channel show SHOOTING GALLERY. My two part "instant SWAT team" season closer, ZERO TO HERO, starts airing today on The Outdoor Channel. The premise of the episodes is simple...what if you took four people with no police, military or civilian training and gave them 48 hours to be turned into a functioning team able to run a really tough simulation. Could they win? Could they even survive? To find out, we drafted former SEAL Denny Chalker--plankholder for SEAL Team 6; plankhoilder for Red Cell, Special Ops legend and one of the finest instructors I've ever met--to give it a try. Check it out!

I've also started planning ZERO TO HERO II for the second season (which we just started filming). I want to open the episodes up to viewers, so what I was thinking is this:

I need at least one more member of the "A-Team" to join my 2 football players and 2 stuntwomen to be a part of a simulated ground battle sometime in May (we're setting dates now). Once again, team members get 48 hours of training from former SEAL and Special Ops legend Denny Chalker and some of his cohorts, then they get launched against a well-trained professional group of antagonists. The facility we'll be using is in SoCal, is private and is nothing short of amazing...so few private citizens have rocket launchers and tanks these days. Plus, if it's good enough for Jennifer Garner on ALIAS, it's good enough for us!

We'll pick up all the expenses and provide all the equipment and Airsofts and guarantee that you end up with a nice bag of SWAG (I'm trying to scam you one of those $400 nuclear Airsoft ARs to take home...be the terror of the neighborhood dogs!).

You'll need about 5 days. I guarantee that you'll learn some amazing stuff, get to hang with some extraordinary people and even shoot the crap out of a lot of them. And believe me, we *know* how to jack up the old pucker factor!

What I want from you is a short e-mail explaining why you'd want to do anything this strange. I need your e-mails by 9 April.

I'll be posting this on some of the other gun lists, and feel free to pass this invitation around.

See you in SoCal!

Michael B

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Ukraine Train
March 15, 2004, 01:26 PM
Wow, sounds pretty awesome, too bad I have school in May. Grrr.....

Daedalus
March 15, 2004, 02:26 PM
This is the coolest idea for a show I have ever heard.

Preacherman
March 15, 2004, 02:41 PM
First of all, many thanks for posting the invitation here. We appreciate you thinking of us!

Secondly, I nominate Skunkabilly to represent us. What more tactical entrant could we possibly provide? :D

Henry Bowman
March 15, 2004, 02:43 PM
Agreed, but . . .
2 football players and 2 stuntwomen
I'd rather the players be a bit more "average Joe." Maybe a carpenter, a teacher, an accountant, a salesman, a Frenchman (OK, maybe not).

cameroneod
March 15, 2004, 02:47 PM
So former military need not apply?

cordex
March 15, 2004, 02:51 PM
Second Preacherman's nomination. The added bonus is that as light as he is, he could use a series of bottle rockets on a ruck as a jetpack.

I agree with Henry Bowman too. If you're trying to tap this "reality TV" craze, I don't feel any particular connection to a couple of football players and stuntpeople.

Sounds like fun, but I doubt I'd do that well as a contestant. (And something tells me that the rocket launchers they'd pass out wouldn't quite be the real thing which just ruins everything for me.)

Jeff White
March 15, 2004, 03:07 PM
I don't agree with the premise of shows like this. To me it's a slap in the face of every professional who spends countless hours sweating and studying to be on the pointy end. It doesn't matter if the pointy end is with TF 121 in Afghanistan or doing taking down the local meth lab while wearing level 3 protective equipment, you don't learn the kind of skills it takes to do this work in 48 hours, no matter who the instructor is. In the real world you can easily spend 48 hours learning to take your team through a door and dominate a room. I won't even get into the technical aspects of shooting, combatives, communications etc.

I think that rather then honor the professionals which may be your intent, it cheapens what we do.

Jeff

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 03:13 PM
I am reminded of the CS experiment again:

A paintball facility owner once arranged a game of a team of former Israeli SpecOps troops vs. a team of Counterstrike (?) players. Neither were experience paintballers.

The CS people ran the ex-soldiers over like a steamroller.

larry_minn
March 15, 2004, 03:28 PM
I also saw a paintball match between some Army folks (using Gov markers from their training) against a local group of guys who played around for fun. Never got involved in any (real) matches. Well they walked over the Army folk. So they had to take off 250rd hoppers and just have 10 rds at time. STill kicked butt.


BUT This was a game. Paintballs won't go thru evergreen trees/siding/plywood/etc. 5.56 will. There is a different mindset as well.
I would bet if they had gone another round with militry weapons (live) the outcome would be VERY different.
Not many folks would sacrafice themselves by hiding behing light concealment to plug a couple BGs with no COVER from return fire. Its fine when they only sting...NOT kill to set youself up to take out a couple knowing you will get killed.

That said IF I was close AND not (hindered) in my mobility I would love to do this.

Jeff White
March 15, 2004, 03:35 PM
MicroBalrog said:
I am reminded of the CS experiment again:

A paintball facility owner once arranged a game of a team of former Israeli SpecOps troops vs. a team of Counterstrike (?) players. Neither were experience paintballers.

The CS people ran the ex-soldiers over like a steamroller.

I can explain this with two words: MILES Courage. The counterstrike players will win because they know they won't actually be hurt. The real soldiers will be more cautious because they have trained for and maybe even done the real thing. Real combat involves real high speed projectiles flying through the air, that cause real injuries and death. Paintball, airsoft pellets, simunition rounds or eyesafe lasers all simulate this, but they can't simulate the fear and other emotions of battle. You will be a lot bolder in pressing home your attacks when you know in your heart of hearts that the worst you'll get out of it is a small welt. You will also tend to use things as cover that would only be concealment in the real world. It's a different set of instincts. Trainers who use these simulations to enhance their training carefully plan the scenarios to take MILES courage out of play, lest the students think it works in the real world. I don't know who first used the term MILES courage, but it comes fromthe Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System that the US Army uses to simulate combat.

Jeff

fix
March 15, 2004, 06:23 PM
I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent.

You are not alone my friend. You are not alone.

MILES courage.

Bingo. Folks who train for real gunfights that involve the possibility of death will always be at a disadvantage to those who's biggest concern is an errant paintball to the nads. Yank those paintball guns and replace them with the real thing and you'll likely have a bunch of dead paintballers in short order. Paintballers need not reply, because if you doubt this you are...well...a fool.

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 06:31 PM
Folks who train for real gunfights that involve the possibility of death will always be at a disadvantage to those who's biggest concern is an errant paintball to the nads

Ever heard of the "psychical attacks" practiced by the Whites in the Russian Civil War?

fix
March 15, 2004, 06:34 PM
Ever heard of the "psychical attacks" practiced by the Whites in the Russian Civil War?

That was a dirty business. Just kill the poor guy for the love of pete!

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 06:39 PM
Apparently, what they did was climb out of the trenches, and simply WALK (not in formation mind you, in formation they'd be cut down), standing tall, not using cover, towards the enemy.

It is said that on numerous occasions the sheer sight of people who appeared to have absolutely no fear of death had petrified the communists so much that they actually lost.

Jeff White
March 15, 2004, 06:47 PM
MicroBalrog,

What was the training level of the Red units that broke under these attacks? I would bet that it wasn't very high and the units didn't have a large number of hardened veterans in them.

I think the reaction of a well trained and led unit against that tactic would have been one of wonder as to how the whites could sacrifice themselves like that.

Jeff

fix
March 15, 2004, 07:01 PM
I thought he was referring to the practice of placing well aimed shots to the junk in an effort to demoralize. Sorry.

dwkennedy
March 15, 2004, 07:03 PM
Jeff White said:


To me it's a slap in the face of every professional


It reminds me of a story I read about a bunch of non-programming tech managers being taught BASIC for a couple of days, so they'd be more "in touch" with the programmers they managed. The training backfired, after writing a few 10 line BASIC programs with the help of an instructor they were convinced that programming was easy (which is sort of true, in the sense a piano is easy to play... you just have to press the keys!)

This could be a fun show, Joe Everyman goes to CQB school, but the "final confrontation" could also end up being contrived and leaving the viewer with unrealistic impressions.

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 07:04 PM
What was the training level of the Red units that broke under these attacks? I would bet that it wasn't very high and the units didn't have a large number of hardened veterans in them.

Well, the Cossacks certainly ran, and they were the best Mother Russia had to offer in that field back then.

Jeff White
March 15, 2004, 07:16 PM
Microbalrog,

What stage of the war was this in, what was the morale of the Cossacks like? I'm not trying to discount your story at all, but you have to know all the information before you can judge how effective a tactic like that is. You are also talking about a civil war situation which sometimes has a different effect on how units fight then other types of war. There are numerous factors that go into why a unit stands and fights and even prevails against incomprhensible odds and why another unit breaks and runs in a battle they could easily win. Your own army is a great example of what I'm talking about. If you added up all of the quantifiable factors, Israel should have been beaten by the various Arab armies a couple times. Yet it was the greater morale and willingness to fight of the IDF that carried the day.

Jeff

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 07:22 PM
JW: I have no idea, this is all I vaguely remember.

As per the IDF, remember that in 1948, the training period for all units was one day, one month for really elite ones.

Correia
March 15, 2004, 07:37 PM
Jeff, I've got to disagree. I see stuff like this more as a salute to the people who do this kind of thing for a living. All of us couch potatoes and cubicle dwellers respect and envy you guys on the sharp end. This sounds more like fun TV than anything else. I would do it.

Microbalrog, I used to play a ton of paintball, and I know I've pointed this out to you before. Paintball and actual combat have got exactly squat to do with each other. You have brought up this point before, and I believe Jeff did a pretty good job of pointing out why it is a bunch of bunk. Sorry, but I've won paintball games by using a piece of sagebrush as cover. So you can see how realistic that is.

MicroBalrog
March 15, 2004, 07:47 PM
Back in 2000, IIRC, about 10 IDF combat soldiers and a civilian got killed by a single shooter. They didn't find him, but they did find an old SKS rifle...

SDAL
March 15, 2004, 08:07 PM
I just got done watching the show and tought I would put my .02 in.

1. I am not a real big fan of the show it's kind of hinky.

2. Not big on the whole realism thing . I mean a Kalashnikov with a 700 round mag !! I guess that means no tactical reloads (Hollywood). :rolleyes:

3. Overcoming the "Fear Factor" cause I can see where it would get scarey to have bright yellow plastic balls flying at you when you have a class 3 vest on. :rolleyes:

4. And the last time I went shooting I heard a BANG when I pulled the trigger.

5. Lastly don't be so melodramatic :)

Jeff White
March 15, 2004, 10:12 PM
Corriea,

The only thing I know about the show is what Mr. Bane posted.

The premise of the episodes is simple...what if you took four people with no police, military or civilian training and gave them 48 hours to be turned into a functioning team able to run a really tough simulation. Could they win? Could they even survive? To find out, we drafted former SEAL Denny Chalker--plankholder for SEAL Team 6; plankholder for Red Cell, Special Ops legend and one of the finest instructors I've ever met--to give it a try. Check it out!

There is no description of the really tough simulation. But in real life 48 hours of training conducted by anyone is not going to give the newbies enough skills to survive or even make an interesting fight. 48 hours might give you enough time to train one one part of one mission.

I need at least one more member of the "A-Team" to join my 2 football players and 2 stuntwomen to be a part of a simulated ground battle sometime in May (we're setting dates now).

As others have said, two football players and two stuntwomen are hardly representative of the general population.

The facility we'll be using is in SoCal, is private and is nothing short of amazing...so few private citizens have rocket launchers and tanks these days. Plus, if it's good enough for Jennifer Garner on ALIAS, it's good enough for us!

Rocket launchers and tanks??? I'm sorry but it sounds more like Survivor goes to Mogadishu then a Discovery Channel special following a new recruit through LAPD SWAT training.

You'll need about 5 days. I guarantee that you'll learn some amazing stuff, get to hang with some extraordinary people and even shoot the crap out of a lot of them. And believe me, we *know* how to jack up the old pucker factor!

And then there is this. I can imagine how they'll jack up the old pucker factor. Often the the ups and downs of an extended call out are worse then the pucker factor of going in the front door.

Maybe my expectations are too high, but I am afraid if they set the scenario up so that the team puts up a reasonable showing on the show that the public's idea that those type of operations are something anyone one can do, you just need the right cowboy spirit.

To me a more interesting show would be to take 5 ordinary citizens out of their offices, cubilcles truck cabs etc. and send them to Blackwater or another school for the entire course. Let the cameras follow them through it all, just like Discovery does. Let them talk about the fatigue and frustration after the've been through the same door for the 65th time that day. Show somebody making the comment about recognizing the Stockholm syndrome in the hostage target on the range, and that's why it got hit....Then on the last three days of the course, for final graduation, send em back to the motel room, give em $500 spending money and tell em to have a good time. But the only provision is that at sometime in the next 3 days, that pager is going to go off, and guess what, it's a 24 hour non-stop tactical problem. Something good like an EDP with a shotgun barricaded with his wife and kids in the house. Put em on the inner perimeter and let them get ready to go in, then stand them down, do this a couple times. Will they bring everyone including the EDP out unharmed? Well, it's not quite as exciting or as good television as re-enacting the Princes Gate takedown with scantily clad stunt women and airsoft guns, but it would give the public an idea of what it's all about and a real idea if they could cut it.

Jeff

bigjim
March 15, 2004, 11:05 PM
I think they should be allowed to serve a No-knock warrant, on the wrong house. Maybe shoot a dog

Goet
March 15, 2004, 11:36 PM
I think they should be allowed to serve a No-knock warrant, on the wrong house. Maybe shoot a dog


My vote for best post of the day!!!
:cool:

JohnKSa
March 16, 2004, 01:02 AM
What's with the username?

Guntalk
March 16, 2004, 07:52 AM
Jeff:

The idea for "Zero to Hero" came from an offhand comment from a Special Ops trainer who said he could take any group of folks and make them into a team in 48 hours.

"Oh yeah?"

So . . . the idea was born. Try to remember that it's all just for fun, and no one claims that they can really train folks to special ops level in 48 hours. What comes out of it is a real appreciation for what SO folks do.

I think Michael had to use folks with some physical training because they really put them through the mill in the training.

I have not seen the show, but I got to see some of the video footage as they were editing it. It sure did look like fun. I've not seen anything like it.

Sure, it's Walter Mitty stuff, but if it is fun, and if it brings an appreciation of how difficult (and dangerous) this stuff is, what's the harm.

I found myself wanting to drop behind cover while watching the video!

I'll catch the show on Sunday night.

Rob Pincus
March 16, 2004, 12:33 PM
I haven't seen the show. I have met Mr. Bane.

I'll bet that it is going to be well received by the average person watching the show and would be entertaining in some form to most of our members.

I think we all know that it is not _real_ and therefore, to debate whether or not Denny Chalker could actually turn 4 physically fit individuals into a team of uber-commandos in two days is kinda silly.

The premise is interesting to me, if only because I know a lot of people _are_ very interested in finding out what "special operations" and "swat" guys do. If more people signed up for training experiences like this, they would probably have more respect for what a SWAT Cop goes through and have more realistic expectations of their performances and abilities (ie- not post with glee a link to every article pointing out everytime cops screw up). If the experience is handled correctly students would understand that everything is not as easy as Hollywood makes it look and things are usually not as cut & dry as the 10 O'clock newes makes it sound. I hope the show attempts to get that point across.

Lagadelphia
March 16, 2004, 11:49 PM
To me a more interesting show would be to take 5 ordinary citizens out of their offices, cubilcles truck cabs etc. and send them to Blackwater or another school for the entire course. Let the cameras follow them through it all, just like Discovery does. Let them talk about the fatigue and frustration after the've been through the same door for the 65th time that day. Show somebody making the comment about recognizing the Stockholm syndrome in the hostage target on the range, and that's why it got hit....Then on the last three days of the course, for final graduation, send em back to the motel room, give em $500 spending money and tell em to have a good time. But the only provision is that at sometime in the next 3 days, that pager is going to go off, and guess what, it's a 24 hour non-stop tactical problem. Something good like an EDP with a shotgun barricaded with his wife and kids in the house. Put em on the inner perimeter and let them get ready to go in, then stand them down, do this a couple times. Will they bring everyone including the EDP out unharmed?

I'd give that a try. I'd be interested to see if I could do it.

Sven
March 17, 2004, 01:19 AM
Michael:

Any plans to visit Northern California?

Or visit this thread again? ;)

-s

The_Antibubba
March 17, 2004, 03:08 AM
I've got the perfect team!!


Ted Kennedy, Charles Schumer, Diane Feinstein, and John F. Kerry!! I mean, these guys know everything anyway, and, if you think about it, they invented the "assault-style weapon". Train 'em with all the gear available to a modern Urban Assault Team, and tell them they will be responsible for capturing, in their final exam, a certified Gun Nut who bought all his Totally Unnecessary death gear at a Gun Show, unnoticed!!

Of course, like any good reality show, there needs to be a twist. So when they are ready to start their rescue, each is issued only the items allowed in their representative states!! Diane isn't allowed and AP or Tracer rounds-that's a Felony in California! Everyone gets Post-Ban Mags, no one can attach a bayonet, Ted Kennedy doesn't have any High-Powered Sniper Ammo, and anyone caught with Body Armor is thrown in Prison.

And because this is a reality show, ALL ROUNDS ARE LIVE.

I call it, "From Liberal To Lead-Filled"

swingset
March 17, 2004, 04:26 AM
Myself, I think we should tear the show to shreds, really pick it apart. I mean, there's so many of these gun shows catering to non-hunters and sport shooters nowadays! It's not like we don't have 57 channels of shooting, right? Heck, I know for my part I'm sick to death of flipping on the TV and seeing AR's in action, IDPA & practical shooting matches.

I think it's important to make the creators of gun shows feel like their effort is completely wasted on back-seat shooters who derive no joy from programming aimed directly at them.

Good going, guys! :D

bigjim
March 17, 2004, 10:00 AM
Swingset....

Actually......look how much interest has been expressed....originators of the show should be excited.

Gundolero
March 18, 2004, 11:51 PM
After reading all of the previous posts I am rather amused that some of you find the premise of this show insulting. It is a TV show and nothing more, despite being termed a "reality"show. I don't subscribe to the logic used by some of the members responding to this post that the show cheapens what the the professionals train for.

If the average "Joes" come out on top in the exercise then the REAL SWAT/Miliitary guys should use it as a learning experience; maybe they would have screwed up royally, maybe not.

I'm sure that simulated combat scenarios can be very effective and very intense otherwise the military would not have been using simulations for as long as they have. I'll agree that mindset has lots to do with it who comes out on top, but not in favor of Professionals vs. Average saps. The guy who is more determined and uses all his means to overcome a situation will likely prevail regardless of lethal ammo or not.

Don't expect to be put on a pedestal being a soldier/cop, and if you're lucky you'll be able to retire in one piece. It's what you decided to do and if you're luckier you get a medal too.

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