PT1911 Did I break something or..?


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TheBullRoars
April 7, 2013, 11:08 PM
Fired another 100 rds today for a total of ~275 with no ftf or fte. At the end of the session I wanted to try a mag of my new carry ammo. Fired white box hp no prob last trip. Winchester PDX1? Nickel plated 230gr bonded hollow point.

I wasnt paying attention and dropped the slide on an empty chamber immediately before this. Cursed myself and loaded the HP.

Insert mag. Tap. Rack, slide doesnt close all the way. Can't drop mag or move slide. Only when I tap the mag again does the slide close and it chambers the round fine.

Took all the rounds out and put them in a diff mag (A+ mec gars) to eliminate the mags as the problem. Same exact results. Mag is seated fully but when racked the slide doesn't chamber the rd and gets locked up. Only tapping the already fully seated mag gets the round to chamber.

Fired the 8 rds off with no prob.

Will post pic of where the slide stops when racking slide.

Unfortunately I didn't have any more fmj to test.

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TheBullRoars
April 7, 2013, 11:17 PM
There is also a chance this was the regular white box HP. I didn't really check or remember

I'm just concerned that my dropping the slide on an empty chamber damaged something.

Will strip and clean when I get home tonight. Is there anything specific I should look for? Will also try loading fmj.

gordy
April 7, 2013, 11:39 PM
The bullet looks to be hanging up on the feed ramp.you can polish it up if you can. That will help.

TheBullRoars
April 7, 2013, 11:46 PM
Its polished from the factory and didn't have this problem last range trip w 3 different types of ammo

JRH6856
April 7, 2013, 11:59 PM
Are you releasing the slide or riding it when you rack it?

Drail
April 8, 2013, 12:04 AM
I don't think you broke anything but I would look closely at the magazine catch's lug for any signs of chipping. It sound as if the position of the magazine (height) has changed.

TheBullRoars
April 8, 2013, 12:41 AM
Clean release of the slide

smalls
April 8, 2013, 01:37 AM
It definitely looks like the bullet is getting hung up on the feed ramp. It needs more polishing. What other hollow points have you been using that worked?

When the round comes out if the mag, it nose dives into the feed ramp. The PDX1's are pretty flat nosed, and not round like FMJ's, so they get stuck.

tarosean
April 8, 2013, 01:51 AM
Pretty sure thats just the WWB HP. PDX1s have nickle coated cases.

Check the OAL (Over all length) next time. you may have set the bullet back resulting in a shorter one allowing for less room for error.

smalls
April 8, 2013, 02:01 AM
Looks nickel to me, but I'm on my phone. WWB HP's aren't as wide at the nose like that shows.

TheBullRoars
April 8, 2013, 02:22 AM
I'll check for sure when I get home as to which type it was. Its either wwb or the pdx1 flatter nose. The wwb HP and mostly fmj fed perfect last trip so I think it was the pdx. Will try chambering different rounds before and after cleaning then I'll post an update

Also I switched the order of the rounds to eliminate one particular problematic one. Didn't matter. Fired them off w no probs.. once the initial one was coaxed into chambering

JRH6856
April 8, 2013, 02:37 AM
From the pics, the ramp looks to be sufficiently overpolished. I suspect the magazine follower angle. Yes, it can happen on two different mags. Could be due to weak springs.

Does it happen with all your mags or do you only have two mags?

TheBullRoars
April 8, 2013, 03:40 AM
Mags are like new. Have had them 2 weeks(have had the gun a month).. three mecgars. First trip was 175 rds without a hiccup. The springs are fine. Still feel new, stiff

Only had the 8 rds on me. Tried first mag, didn't chamber til I tapped it. Tried it w the 2nd mag w the same results then fired them off, which was no prob.. again, once I coaxed the slide to close on the first round by tapping on the fully seated mag. I do have a third mecgar and Taurus mag. Only had the gun about a month. Will be picking up more mags soon.

TheBullRoars
April 8, 2013, 05:29 AM
It was the wwb. Which sucks bad because a bad brand of ammo is a much easier fix. This wwb hp fired 8 rds through 3 mags no issues at the end of last trip. last trip. Taking it all down in a few min. Will try to chamber a mag full of fmj first

Edit: won't chamber wwb fmj now either. Slide stuck and when I hit the mag release this time the mag at least fell out this time and the slide fell, chambering the round

Either way if it happened because of the one time I drop the slide empty it messes something up. Will tear it down to the problem and assess whether or not I'm capable of fixing it. I don't want to send it back to Taurus and wait weeks or more if I can diy it.

All my guns are projects and I enjoy it. But I will need YouTube help and some luck as I haven't even done a complete strip of a 1911 yet

rbernie
April 8, 2013, 09:03 AM
three mecgarsThat's your problem. Mecgar makes some fine magazines for most any pistol, but their 1911 magazines aren't worth a whole lot, in my book.

1911's will nosedive rounds if the magazine doesn't present them at the correct angle and height, which really isn't hard to do but many magazines simply don't bother to try. Some of the worst offenders are the Mecgars. Get some Colt/Checkmate hybrids and don't look back. I've also had decent luck with the Chip McCormick PowerMag, despite them having a non-tapered feed lip.

Polishing the feedramp will not help, and if the gun is the lightweight version is probably not a good idea at all. More 1911's are ruined by 'polish the feed ramp!' advice than any other single mod.

By the way - you did not break the gun dropping the slide on an empty chamber. If you did, you would be getting hammer follow - not feed issues.

Drail
April 8, 2013, 10:30 AM
OK, everyone repeat after me - feed ramps DO NOT need to be polished. Never have - never will. Ask any knowledgeable smith. It's like waxing your car when the clutch is worn out. It might make you feel better but it will not solve the problem. Leave the ramp alone.

460Kodiak
April 8, 2013, 10:41 AM
I've had good luck with Wilson Combat ETM 8 rounders. May help rbernie is right about the Mecgar mags sucking.

JRH6856
April 8, 2013, 10:44 AM
Try the Taurus mag and see what happens.

I have had no luck at all with mecgars in any 1911 I have had. Genuine Colt have been the best performers, and I have had a lot of cheap copies that worked well as long as the follower had the magic "pip".

You might find this thread helpful (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229073&highlight=1911+magazine+lips)

And I haven't polished a feed ramp in 30 years. ;)

SwampWolf
April 8, 2013, 04:40 PM
Either way if it happened because of the one time I drop the slide empty it messes something up.

I don't know what's wrong with your pistol but I sincerely doubt that dropping the slide on an empty chamber once (or even several times) would have caused any damage. Though doing so is never a good idea, any well-made 1911 pistol should not be damaged by the occasional dropping of the slide on an empty chamber.
Good luck in determining the real cause of your malfunctions.

TheBullRoars
April 8, 2013, 05:12 PM
Wow @ the level of knowledge in past threads and I appreciate the help from all of you too.

So first I tried 8 rds fmj from the Taurus mag. Chambered when racked. Put the first rd further down in the mag and tried again. No go.

Then loaded every mag with 7 hollow points a couple times and it was smooth as glass every time for each mag.

1) Why did this problem present itself after almost 300 rds and in all mags not just one at a time? Really makes me think something changed w the gun.

2) Am I losing out on anything or creating problems getting/ keeping 8 round mags always downloaded to 7 rounds?

mr.scott
April 8, 2013, 05:29 PM
You need a different follower. Mecgar mags are ok, but if you're going to be carrying this, get a Wilson combat mag.

JRH6856
April 8, 2013, 07:52 PM
I'm guessing the Taurus has a different follower than the Mecgars. As to 8 vs 7, after having nothing but problems with he first 2 8 rounders I bought, I've never used anything but 7 round mags.

rbernie
April 8, 2013, 08:54 PM
1) Why did this problem present itself after almost 300 rds and in all mags not just one at a time? Really makes me think something changed w the gun. No - the springs in the mag are crap and have already given up the ghost.....

TheBullRoars
April 8, 2013, 10:39 PM
Im not trying to make excuses for the mags but they feel just the same. Stiff and plenty of tension. The 8th round is def under pressure. I just can't see all the mags failing at the same time.

Especially since I used the Taurus mag only once and all of a sudden it shows the same problem during testing

I will definitely be going w better mags but now the questions are if only certain ones work w a certain gun, what capacity and brand to go with..

Also don't want to be looking past an actual problem. Got a pizza and a 6pack of beer. Simple strip and clean coming up. Will post what I find, if anything

JRH6856
April 8, 2013, 10:55 PM
OK, that is a good point, so lets chase something else. From the pix posted it is impossible to tell if the side is hung up on the back top of the mag or on the rim of the round.

If it is the mag, then we need to figure out why the mag is riding too high.

If it is the round, there are several different possibilities.

The slide stop could be pushing the nose down. Check the bottom of the slide stop for copper smears.

Can you determine just what the slide is hung up on? Or post pics that show more of the breech face and rim? Try to get one showing the rim and the extractor as well.

Oh, if you want to see a wealth of knowledge, just go the the gunsmithing section, read the 1911 stickies at the top, and then search for 1911Tuner's posts on anything regarding a 1911.

tarosean
April 9, 2013, 01:33 AM
post pics that show more of the breech face and rim?


This..


Strip the gun and post pics

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:13 AM
Sitting down to do it now. Here's what it looks like when the slide stops

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:32 AM
These are taken w a phone. If another angle is needed lmk

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:33 AM
More

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:35 AM
And mo

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:36 AM
And more

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:37 AM
Few more. Will clean up and get better pics of needed

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 03:40 AM
...

JRH6856
April 9, 2013, 04:37 AM
Ok, from looking at the first pic of the new pix, you clearly have a nose-dive at a point when the case should be up against the feed lips. If you look closely, you can see that the slide stop appears to be in contact with the bullet. If this is the case, there should be copper smears on the slide stop. The slide stop should not be in contact with the bullet at any time. At this point in the feed cycle, the slide stop should be barely visible under the bullet, not pressing against it.

Of course, if the slide lock is extending too far into the frame and is in contact with the bullets, you should have instances of premature slide lock and you aren't reporting that.

Now, if there are no smears and the bullet is clearing the slide lock, then we are back to the magazine.

Original 1911 mags have tapered lips that are narrower at the back than at the front This allows the round to feed with the nose higher than the rim. Newer, hybrid and wadcutter mags such as the one in the pic have lips that are less angled or are parallel for about half their length. This keeps the round in a more horizontal position and holds the nose down. Too much of this and the round will nose dive into the ramp.

You can get too much of this if the mag follower/mag spring does not keep enough pressure on the round to force the nose up as soon as possible. Or if the follower tips forward so that the rims ride higer than the nose. 8 round mags hold 8 rounds because they have shorter follower tails. which allows the follower to be pushed lower in the mag to accomodate the 8th round. But it is the follower tails (along with a correctly shaped and tensioned spring) that keep the follower at the correct angle for each round. Shorter tails tend to allow the follower to tip forward and flatten out. Watch as you load your mags, on may 8 rounders, you can see the angle change and flatten out after the 5th or 6 round is loaded.

tarosean
April 9, 2013, 06:08 AM
Is this a gouge?

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 06:21 AM
A little brass on the inside edge of the slide stop. Unfortunately a little wiped off before the picture. The divet in the other end is obv tool mark

Never had premature slide lock and it could just be residue not brass? More or less "smeared" off

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 06:22 AM
At first it looked gouged or very slightly worn but it was filth that wiped off

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 06:54 AM
So how would the slide stop fall out of spec? Especially only causing problems only with chambering the first round?

Will order new mags and slide stop (and safety.. and maybe a nice bushing, hd extractor etc...)

Will try the mags first of course then see if a new slide stop helps

Any more ideas in the mean time would be great. Thanks fellas

JRH6856
April 9, 2013, 07:10 AM
First try this: Instead of inserting the mag and then racking the slide, lock the slide back, insert the mag, then drop the slide. Does it still jam?

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 07:14 AM
Have to wake up early. Had work projects occupying my time. Will clean, lube, and try that tomorrow asap and post results.

Also I had no idea wwb was -so- dirty. The gun is filthy after 100 rds but it was pretty wet too.

Expect an update around noon today. Thx

JRH6856
April 9, 2013, 07:20 AM
OK, 8 rnd mags are pretty crammed and the spring is fully compressed. There is no room for any more compression. And there has to be some room for compression when inserting a mag with the slide closed. Otherwise, the mag won't fully seat.

I have a 13 rnd Hi-Power mag that I can cram 14 rounds into, but I can only insert it when the slide is locked. If the slide is closed, it won't seat at all and falls out. But if I insert it with the slide locked and drop the slide, it functions fine, but I still get just 13+1.

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 02:59 PM
Will chamber the top round of 8 by dropping the locked slide but not otherwise. This problem chews up the rim of the case. Got a round stuck in the chamber but got it out. How frustrating

7rds still loads fine racking the slide

I wanted this gun to grow on me. I like the ergonomics and accuracy but as far as 100% problem free reliability.. nope. Whether its the mags working for a while then all of a sudden all at once failing, or maybe something else changing.. I have my doubts now

Had it never loaded 8 rds problem free and if this was always an issue it would be one thing. But to work w multiple 8 round mags then all of a sudden, not at all with any of them..

I'm all for labors of love and love-hate relationships.. but a gun is not a toy and I planned on carrying my only pistol and to trust my life to it hoping to have never experienced any malfunction of any kind for any reason. If a super special particular magazine is the only kind that will work, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Especially knowing that might not even be the issue

JRH6856
April 9, 2013, 04:18 PM
The 1911 was designed to run with a 7 round mag. Not 8. It can be forced to run with 8 if certain conditions are met.

The magazine, whatever capacity has to present the round at the proper angle. Both the 7 and 8 round mags can do this, and when they do, the nose of the round is just a bit higher than the rim. They must maintain this angle when inserted into the pistol. The 7 rnd mag can do this reliably. When the slide is closed, the top round is pressed against the bottom of the slide and the entire stack in the mag is pressed downward in order to allow the mag to seat.

In the 8 rnd mag, there is very little compression space available under the rim end of the stack, with a lot more space available is under the nose because the nose is riding higher. So the nose is pressed down more until the top round is parallel with the bottom of the slide above it. But this is the wrong angle for a reliable feed and the bullet nosedives into the feed ramp and you have a jam.

Hard tapping the mag base when the jam occurs jars the round loose and with the slide partially open there is room for the nose to assume the correct feed angle and ride the feed ramp into the chamber.

You don't have this problem with a 8 rnd mag with the slide locked back because there is no compression of the rounds needed to seat the mag and the top round maintains its proper feed angle. With 7 rnds, and a closed slide, the feed angle can be maintained during the compression when the mag is seated.

I'm guessing JMB figured all this out or else we would have seen 8 rnd mags a 100 years ago.

TheBullRoars
April 9, 2013, 04:33 PM
Thanks for your tireless educating of a newbie.. all of you. I hope you know that it means a lot to me for strangers to spend the time to help me out.

I just cant get my head around how the mags all worked and then all of a sudden did not.. even the one that never went to the range. is there a way that the break in period "settled" things to where it is what it is? As I think about it, it would make sense for them to not feed at first, stiffer mag springs and all

Based on what you've seen and understand, for my particular gun.. which 7rd magazines would be best?

Also.. what to make of the slide stop contacting the brass? Is there a certain brand replacement that I should try over the others?

JRH6856
April 9, 2013, 05:18 PM
First, the slide stop. This problem usually causes early slide lock as well and you don't seem to be having that problem which is why I went back to the mags. You said brass smears. If the slide lock is the problem it should be copper, the brass really shouldn't be getting anywhere near the slide stop unless the nosedive has already occurred. The absence of early slide lock suggests the contact may be the result of the nosedive rather than the cause of it.

As to why the mags suddenly stopped working, I don't know. The brand new springs may have been stiff enough to push the nose back up as soon as the slide was out of the way. They may have lost just enough stiffness to allow the nose to remain down. Or, under full compression, the springs may have shifted slightly at the mag base, or the follower tails may have become damaged or bent slightly. This is just off the top of my head as I don't have any 8 rnd mags to look at or play with to try an recreate the problem.

For a mag recommendation, see post #15, Metalform mags also have a good rep.

wow6599
April 10, 2013, 09:28 AM
Buy some quality mags and see what happens. Or send it back to Taurus on their dime......

adaptandovercome
April 10, 2013, 09:34 AM
I have 2 pt 1911 and they work best with 7 rounds in the chip mccormic power or shooting star mags. Factory mags work well also. I never have luck with cramming in 8 rounds. The mags will say they hold 8 but they will reliably fire 7.

JRH6856
April 10, 2013, 02:47 PM
Holds 8, feeds 7. :uhoh:

With my Hi-Power mag that holds an extra round, I just look at it as a convenient way to load 13+1 without having to drop the mag to top it off. Lock slide, Insert mag, Drop Slide.

TheBullRoars
April 12, 2013, 07:16 AM
Easiest way for 7+1 I guess. Still wish it held 8+1 like it reliably did the first couple hundred rounds. Now it seems if I load 8+1 with this happening that it would jam on the second round? I can test this out on Saturday but idk if I want to induce a failure in front of all my friends :)

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