Why not more companies making slim DA/SA hammer fired pistols?


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Orion8472
April 11, 2013, 10:07 AM
I was looking for a slim DA/SA pistol, and at best, people could only really offer something like the S&W 3913. Why don't you see more options from other companies [and new models]? Seems to me that a DA/SA type carry weapon would be a better choice for those who don't like the Striker Fire style guns. Or, . . . do people just REALLY like Striker Fire that much that it is all they want [thus all maker will make]?

What I would love would be a modern polymer frame gun, DA/SA, nearly as slim as the Kahr. I like the trigger on the FNX-9 and would love if they made a slim conceal carry line [which I really doubt they ever would].

Anyone else think this way?

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g_one
April 11, 2013, 10:31 AM
I think for me, it comes down to just how concealed you want to carry. I prefer hammer-fired guns, however if I'm going to be putting it in my pocket I really don't want that hammer stick out to snag on things. For a pocket gun, give me an LCP or a G26 any day.
But for IWB, or if you just want a smaller gun, I'd love to see a compact polymer that I could carry Condition 1. When I picture that, I picture something like a cross between a SIG P239 and SA XDs

Orion8472
April 11, 2013, 10:42 AM
Currently, I am waiting out the release of the XDs in 9mm, . . . . but really don't like the idea of a striker fired gun, . . . knowing that its firing pin is spring loaded doesn't give me a lot of confidence. I know people will say that "it won't fire unless the trigger is pulled", but still, that spring is under tension.

I just think I would feel "safer" with a DA/SA with decocker option. But most likely will begrudgingly pick up the XDs.

mgmorden
April 11, 2013, 11:09 AM
Or, . . . do people just REALLY like Striker Fire that much that it is all they want [thus all maker will make]?

You're getting around to the issue there. DA/SA is falling out of favor. The preference is just to avoid the changing of the pull weight between shots.

There are still people that like the action type, and its not flawed to any serious degree, but the majority of consumers and law enforcement seem have been trending to striker fired designs (or DAO designs) for the better part of 3 decades now. A lot of the DA/SA designs that are still popular today have been around for a good long while - there are some new ones coming on the market but not a lot.

. . . . but really don't like the idea of a striker fired gun, . . . knowing that its firing pin is spring loaded doesn't give me a lot of confidence. I know people will say that "it won't fire unless the trigger is pulled", but still, that spring is under tension.

There are millions of striker fired guns being carried daily. Nearly every law enforcement officer in the nation carries a striker fired gun. In the 25-30 years that they've been common on the market, I don't think I've EVER heard of one just "going off". Trust me, the design is safe. Even if sear were to fail releasing the striker every striker fired gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block that still wouldn't let it touch a live round unless the trigger was pulled).

MedWheeler
April 11, 2013, 11:12 AM
It's an interesting question, at least. I wonder if the mechanics/internals of the DA/SA operation somehow demand a frame stronger than polymer. I can't see how, but maybe...

ECVMatt
April 11, 2013, 11:33 AM
I could see where the hammer location would have to be relieved and could possible compromise strength, but it would also seem like an inserted block could reinforce the area.

I carry striker fired guns without worry. You might look at the Ruger SR series, they have more safety features than needed.

Orion8472
April 11, 2013, 11:37 AM
mgmorden, that is a practical post, and I hear what you're saying. As I said, I am currently awaiting the release of the 9mm XDs, so I will end up with one anyway. Just liked that extra protection, . . . even though you're probably right in that there hasn't been one "just going off on its own". Why I'm waiting out that XDs is because of the added "peace of mind" of the grip safety. It's my "plan B", really.

19-3Ben
April 11, 2013, 12:04 PM
It's an interesting question, at least. I wonder if the mechanics/internals of the DA/SA operation somehow demand a frame stronger than polymer. I can't see how, but maybe...

If that were the case, the FN pistols would be severely problematic, and they don't seem to be.

I think mgmorden hit it right on the head. Most people just don't like having to switch between the heavy first trigger pull, and lighter subsequent ones.

ku4hx
April 11, 2013, 12:15 PM
I think the concept of hammerless guns in general gaining traction was the possibility of a hammer snagging on clothing. Early attempts such as spurless hammers and shrouded hammers tried to correct this with the Glock (once again) "solving" the "problem".

Orion8472
April 11, 2013, 12:22 PM
True, there is more probability of a "hammer snagged on clothing". It requires more training to make sure your shirt is lifted well up out of the way. I guess the flat back of a striker fire pistol is another reason for the limiting of the hammer pistol.

CZ has the Rami, . . . . which is relatively small, . . . but the thing is quite thick. Their attempt at a polymer frame resulted in bulges.

Good thoughts, guys.

Sam1911
April 11, 2013, 12:34 PM
Or, . . . do people just REALLY like Striker Fire that much that it is all they want [thus all maker will make]?

You're getting around to the issue there. DA/SA is falling out of favor. The preference is just to avoid the changing of the pull weight between shots.

There are still people that like the action type, and its not flawed to any serious degree, but the majority of consumers and law enforcement seem have been trending to striker fired designs (or DAO designs) for the better part of 3 decades now. A lot of the DA/SA designs that are still popular today have been around for a good long while - there are some new ones coming on the market but not a lot.

Exactly. It's a little bit like an auto manufacturer still making a carbureted engine, a solid front axle 4x4 truck, drum brakes, t-tops, etc. Yeah, there are plenty of folks who still like those things, and they still work just as well as they ever did, but they are rather dated designs now and technology has moved us in a different direction.

There's really no reason you can't learn to shoot that DA first shot well. And there's no reason you can't remember to pull out the choke knob a little when you're first starting your car, or get out in the mud to lock your hubs.

Bovice
April 11, 2013, 12:40 PM
Solid front axles... lol

We're light-years from that.... Back in 2001 or 2002 Chevrolet came out with the quadrasteer silverado. While they didn't really take off in popularity, it's a really cool feature.

With that said, I still like DA/SA more than striker, but it isn't over safety concerns.

Orion8472
April 11, 2013, 12:44 PM
Sam, . . . my brother in law had a fuel injection in his 66 Nova and it never really ran that well, so he put a carburator on it. Runs great! :D

But seriously, I get what you're saying. . . . and because "thin" is more important to me than most characteristics, I'll have to get the new technology.

tarosean
April 11, 2013, 12:50 PM
but they are rather dated designs now and technology has moved us in a different direction.

Technology or Profits?

RedAlert
April 11, 2013, 01:18 PM
With the exception of my DA revolver, all my weapons are DA/SA. I sold my Kahr because I didn't care for the DAO action. No other complaints with it other than the action.
I don't have a problem with the DA/SA, generally if I am not under a time constraint, I cock the hammer back with my off hand and shoot all rounds SA. Of course if time were an issue, I can just fire it DA first immediately out of the holster as I keep one in the chamber and a full mag in the well.
As for using as a reason that time is passing by and newer products are being developed as a reason for the declining popularity, I think is flawed. Just look at the 1911s, that thing is a dinosaur among handguns, and is just as effective today as a century ago.

Sam1911
April 11, 2013, 01:35 PM
Technology or Profits?Not sure I follow. I doubt there are a whole lot of production cost savings (thus increased profit per unit) to be had from developing a new striker-fired design over building the same old DA/SA.

Now, profits because more folks will buy your product? Sure! Plenty. That would be a change in the state of the art driving demand for new technology which then increases your profits if you change to meet demand. Kind of self-defeating to make a design that a decreasing number of buyers want (or are willing to accept the perceived shortcomings of).

Sam1911
April 11, 2013, 01:41 PM
As for using as a reason that time is passing by and newer products are being developed as a reason for the declining popularity, I think is flawed. Just look at the 1911s, that thing is a dinosaur among handguns, and is just as effective today as a century ago.It isn't "flawed," it just doesn't describe all the different forces in the market. The 1911 is a design that has aged pretty well and which has developed a cachet among certain knowledgeable aficionados. It has a lot of venerability and both nostalgic and practical appeal -- to a sizable MINORITY of shooters.

DA/SA designs have never really managed to grab anything like so large a segment of the shooting public with the dyed-in-the-wool appeal of the 1911 -- and/or their center of appeal has always been those "progressive" shooters who wanted something with more features and creature comforts than the 1911 which was one of the two natural alternatives to the DA/SA auto. (The other being revolvers.)

So the fan base of the DA/SA designs is the very same group of shooters (minus a very small number of holdouts) who were not viscerally adhered to the 1911 or revolver and thus would be most likely to gravitate to the newer "safe-action" design of the Glock and related striker-fired guns.

GLOOB
April 11, 2013, 01:51 PM
Even if sear were to fail releasing the striker every striker fired gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block that still wouldn't let it touch a live round unless the trigger was pulled).
The Steyr M pistols don't, AFAIK.

mgmorden
April 11, 2013, 02:31 PM
The Steyr M pistols don't, AFAIK.

Wasn't aware of that one, but it certainly is an exception to the rule. Also, has there ever been a reported incident of a sear failure resulting in a discharge from one of these?

tarosean
April 11, 2013, 02:38 PM
So the fan base of the DA/SA designs is the very same group of shooters (minus a very small number of holdouts) who were not viscerally adhered to the 1911 or revolver and thus would be most likely to gravitate to the newer "safe-action" design of the Glock and related striker-fired guns.

We now have generations of shooters who know nothing but poly striker guns.

Sam1911
April 11, 2013, 03:15 PM
Right! That's what they see cops, self-defense trainers, competition masters/grand-masters (and of course the movie and TV characters) using, so why not give those a try? While they might go looking for a specific gun make and model that they once saw in a magazine and just really liked, or that their dad had, etc, they aren't very likely to go looking for a less currently common style of operation. There are probably many gun buyers who never even noticed (specifically, consciously, with introspection toward the why and how of it) that their Glock doesn't have a hammer like a 1911 does. Who cares? It works!

Girodin
April 11, 2013, 04:49 PM
We now have generations of shooters who know nothing but poly striker guns.

I guess if you count some very young shooters. Poly striker guns weren't popular until less than 25 years ago. Not really enough time for "generations" to develop.


To answer the OP, they don't exist because their isn't a market to support them, or at least the makers don't think that there is.

As to what people go out looking for, my time in gun stores suggests that most people aren't particularly knowledgeable and rely a lot on what they person behind the counter is pushing. Much as I might if I bought some home appliance or the like.

osteodoc08
April 11, 2013, 06:28 PM
Around my parts, 25 years is plenty for a second generation old enough to shoot polymer...

Times change. I've got a little of every action type. Each has their own characteristics and personalities. It all comes down to training.

USAF_Vet
April 11, 2013, 07:11 PM
I'm not a big fan of striker fired guns myself. I'm fond of my Smith 469 DA/SA. With the bobbed hammer, there is nothing to get snagged on clothes or whatever.

I am one if those weird ones who prefer the heavy 1st shot and easier follow up shots. If I have to shoot something, that heavy pull gives me a few milliseconds of synapses firing to determine whether or not I need to follow through. Follow up shots, if any, are much easier and I don't need to go through the decision making process. Well, I go through a different decision making process anyway.

I they made a slim, lightweight, subcompact, single stack DA/SA, I'd seriously be interested. But I won't be holding my breath waiting.

Plan2Live
April 11, 2013, 08:00 PM
I am one if those weird ones who prefer the heavy 1st shot And to a large extent so is Massad Ayoob, or at least that's what his book Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry, 2nd Edition suggests. Copyright 2012, originally published 2007. I'm pretty sure Massad had fired a few striker fired pistols by the publishing date. He mentions installing the NY Trigger with the eight pound trigger pull on his striker fired carry guns and even using that set-up in competition and winning.

I have both a striker fired and a DA/SA hammer fired pistol. Different days call for different guns and different triggers.

danez71
April 11, 2013, 08:12 PM
Its because DA/SA is a solution to a problem that never existed.

There. I said it.

Somebody had to. :evil:

Plan2Live
April 11, 2013, 08:18 PM
Its because DA/SA is a solution to a problem that never existed.

There. I said it.

Somebody had to. I'm glad Baskin Robbins had a different take on diversity.

MedWheeler
April 11, 2013, 09:02 PM
Sam1911 contributes:

It's a little bit like an auto manufacturer still making a carbureted engine, a solid front axle 4x4 truck, drum brakes, t-tops, etc. Yeah, there are plenty of folks who still like those things, and they still work just as well as they ever did, but they are rather dated designs now and technology has moved us in a different direction.

There's really no reason you can't learn to shoot that DA first shot well. And there's no reason you can't remember to pull out the choke knob a little when you're first starting your car, or get out in the mud to lock your hubs.

I like your analogies, Sam. My first 4x4 truck still sits outside, carbureted engine, stick shift, and crouch-in-the-mud-to-twist-em hubs and all. I bought it in January of 1987, six months before acquiring my first handgun. I ran some errands in it today, and still drive it several times a week.

Next to it is my current daily driver, also a 4x4, but 10 years newer.

Jaywalker
April 11, 2013, 11:00 PM
DA/SA was a reasonable approach for those who didn't care to manipulate a safety under stress, so the "non-existent problem" issue was always wrong - there was a problem and the DA/SA was a good solution at the time.

Really good clockwork watches were also good solutions for telling time until quartz and circuit boards replaced them, at least for efficiency and cost. I have a Swiss watch, and I also have a revolver and a DA/SA Beretta, but for pure function the newer tech is more efficient, cheaper, and more accurate, at least for my purposes. For admiring worksmanship, however, polished steel and DA/SA can't be beaten.

TimboKhan
April 11, 2013, 11:05 PM
Market demand is all it is. If a bunch of people were hollering for da/sa guns, by george we would have a plethora of those guns. Clearly, such is not the case.

Orion8472
April 12, 2013, 09:39 AM
So, bottom line is, . . . . . . most people want the striker fire mechanism. Therefore, no manufacturer is going to make a new DA/SA thin pistol.

I guess I'll just have to live with the [eventual] 9mm XDs and be happy about it.

kokapelli
April 12, 2013, 09:57 AM
really don't like the idea of a striker fired gun, . . . knowing that its firing pin is spring loaded doesn't give me a lot of confidence. I know people will say that "it won't fire unless the trigger is pulled", but still, that spring is under tension.
On guns like Kahr, KelTec and some other, the firing pin spring is only partially compressed and even if it were to let go there is not enough energy to ignite the round.

On the Kahr type firing system the trigger must be pulled to increase the firing pin spring compression enough to fire, so it is every bit as safe as a DA/SA and IMO superior because every pull is the same and the firing mechanism is much simpler when compared to DA/SA system.

Orion8472
April 12, 2013, 10:08 AM
I had a Kahr CW9 at one time, . . . but couldn't get used to the DAO trigger. Also, because the trigger was fairly easy to pull, . . . I constantly "worried" about something snagging the trigger when I was holstering it. I know, . . . I know, . . . get a better holster. :o Mostly, I just never warmed up to the trigger.

Jaywalker
April 12, 2013, 10:49 AM
Orion8472:I had a Kahr CW9 at one time, . . . but couldn't get used to the DAO trigger. Also, because the trigger was fairly easy to pull, . . . I constantly "worried" about something snagging the trigger when I was holstering it. I know, . . . I know, . . . get a better holster. Mostly, I just never warmed up to the trigger.Different strokes for different folks. I like the Kahr NYPD trigger better than any other firearm/trigger combination, including better than the Kahr Elite trigger.

Possibly part of that's the feel of my K9 and where the trigger falls under my finger, but it could also be a generational thing. I've noticed that folks who like the Glock-type trigger release tend to be younger than the folks who like the Kahr-type release, maybe because the Kahr-NYPD is closer to a revolver trigger, though it beats the best revolver double action I've ever owned.

Orion8472
April 12, 2013, 11:14 AM
I suppose it COULD also be that I purchased the "bottom of the line" CW series. The K9 metal framed Kahrs really feel awesome in the hand. I have to give them that.

ThePenguinKnight
April 12, 2013, 11:14 AM
There are a few polymer framed DA/SA hammer guns, but they're rare. See the Taurus 800 series. (http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=602&category=Pistol&toggle=tp&breadcrumbseries=LF1) I don't know of any compacts or single stack hammer fired DA/SA guns, though.

DA is not limited to a hammer fired gun. See the Walther P99AS, wich is a striker fired DA/SA weapon with a decocker; great weapon, and I love my S&W rendition of it. Also look at pistols such as the Taurus 709, which has a backup DA ability for second strikes; kinda gimicky, and no way to access the DA except in the case of a failure to fire, but nonetheless it can fire DA.

People these days are mostly liking the same-every-time trigger pulls of the Glock-esque striker system. The market demands it, so that's what it is supplying. Even some of the hammer fired guns lately have been designed partially pre-cocked to emulate the Glock-esque trigger action (see the Walther PPX). Heavy and/or long triggers are popular in the pocket guns, or short/light with a safety; just not much demand for some combination, so not much is being supplied.

Orion8472
April 12, 2013, 11:29 AM
It isn't carry size, . . . but I may have to look for a Walther P99 AS. I like those. Too bad the Walther PPS never had that type of setup.

tarosean
April 12, 2013, 11:33 AM
There are a few polymer framed DA/SA hammer guns, but they're rare

Sig SP2022, FN FNX

are another two, not necessarily thin thou

Orion8472
April 12, 2013, 11:44 AM
Yes, plenty options. . . . unless "thin" is a requirement. It could very well be the case that a DA/SA mechanism can only BE made so thin, thus nothing considered XDs/M&P Shield type of thin.

ThePenguinKnight
April 12, 2013, 12:03 PM
Yes, plenty options. . . . unless "thin" is a requirement. It could very well be the case that a DA/SA mechanism can only BE made so thin, thus nothing considered XDs/M&P Shield type of thin.

The mechanism can be made thin. See the Taurus 709 mentioned above. It has an action that is functionally identical to a DA/SA action, but with no means to decock the striker, it runs SA till there is a failure. The only reason it isn't a DA/SA is because they designed it to appeal to a different group of folks, the ones who like short/light (ish, mine is surprisingly heavy) and a safety, instead of short/light with a long/heavy first shot and a decocker.

The only reason it doesn't exist is that the manufacturers haven't tried to target that market. Write a letter and make some calls, and if enough people join you they might take enough interest to start looking that way (if they haven't already).

tarosean
April 12, 2013, 12:23 PM
The mechanism can be made thin. See the Taurus 709 mentioned above.

PPK is thinner than that (.8 vs .92) and a true DA/SA

Jaywalker
April 12, 2013, 01:02 PM
Also, FWIW, hand size and strength had something to do with the obsolescence of DA/SA handguns. Many of the DA strokes were made with very long trigger pulls, probably for leverage to reduce the amount of apparent resistance in the pull. The problem for many of us was that made for pull lengths that our fingers couldn't reach - the current CZ75, for instance. Others had shorter pulls, like the 1970s PPK/s, for instance, that was short but very, very stiff. The striker models today are more available to people with smaller hands, and that's well over half the population.

PedalBiker
April 12, 2013, 01:14 PM
I shoot striker fired pistols better and I have more trigger time on my DA/SA guns.

Cocked & Locked
April 12, 2013, 03:22 PM
What's in style is what sells. What sells is what's in style.

Plastic is in style and most folks want to be in style. With that our world becomes plastic...pistols, gunstocks, car bumpers & dashboards, power tools, vinyl siding, bathtubs, sinks, etc.

With plastic comes cheaper to produce striker fired hand guns with stamped steel internal parts. The market selling prices are not usually cheaper though because the consumers want to be in style and are willing to pay up to be so.

The plastic striker fired guns with plastic magazines are stuffed into plastic holsters and everybody is in style. :cool:

The ones out of style are the older codgers like myself that prefer metal frame SA/DA and SA automatics or revolvers...all with hammers. :scrutiny:

And that is OK.

danez71
April 12, 2013, 08:54 PM
DA/SA was a reasonable approach for those who didn't care to manipulate a safety under stress, so the "non-existent problem" issue was always wrong - there was a problem and the DA/SA was a good solution at the time.


I was kidding about the 'non-existent problem'. Different strokes for different folks.

As an example, I would rather flick off the safety and have a short SA type trigger than worry about having to deal with a looooong DA pull.

Other people, want no manual safety AND the short SA type pull (such as a glock) because they dont want to deal with looong DA pull or a manual saftey.

Personally, I dont want a DA/SA on any more of my guns than the SR22 and Bersa 22 I have.

Weevil
April 12, 2013, 09:52 PM
On guns like Kahr, KelTec and some other, the firing pin spring is only partially compressed and even if it were to let go there is not enough energy to ignite the round.



The Kel-Tecs are hammer fired.

kokapelli
April 12, 2013, 10:14 PM
Oops, your right!

Billy Shears
April 13, 2013, 12:40 AM
Companies have to market what sells the best -- what there is the most demand for. The big problem with the DA/SA trigger was not only the "crunchenticker" aspect, as Jeff Cooper called it, of having a long, heavy pull, followed by a short, light pull, it was the fact that the double action trigger often had a very long stroke, and the trigger, in DA mode, was so far forward that shooters with smaller hands had a difficult time reaching it while still maintaining a proper grip. Some pistols, like the CZ75, allowed a shooter to carry cocked & locked and get around this problem, but other guns did not.

The modern, striker-fired pistol gives a better balance of characteristics that appeals to a larger segment of the shooting world. It allows a lower bore axis, which minimizes muzzle climb and decreases recovery time between shots; it allows a consistent trigger pull, from the first shot to subsequent shots; it doesn't require an inordinately long trigger pull, which would be detrimental to shooters with smaller hands; it's a simple mechanism, with relatively few moving parts, which not only means cheaper manufacture, it also means ease of maintenance by police and other armorers; the mechanism is such that there is no need for manual safeties or decocking levers, which not only increases simplicity of operation (and therefore training), but it also still further reduces the number of parts needing to be made for the gun. This combination of features has broad appeal, and modern, striker-fired pistols have been brought to such a high level of reliability, that they don't give up anything to other mechanisms in that area. In other words, since they work just as reliably, and are cheaper to make, and a bit easier and more intuitive for most people to use than the traditional, hammer-fired DA/SA designs, they have largely replaced that type of pistol. I don't see any likelihood of this changing in the foreseeable future. There's just not much demand, and thus no economic incentive for any company to produce a new hammer-fired, DA/SA in today's market. What market there is, is served well enough by the designs that are already out there.

el Godfather
April 13, 2013, 09:23 AM
CZ Shadow the new slim line

kokapelli
April 13, 2013, 09:33 AM
CZ Shadow the new slim line
It's almost a full inch and a half thick! Not real fat but hardly what I would call slim

The Lone Haranguer
April 13, 2013, 09:35 AM
Although not really slim, SIG-Sauer makes a compact called the P224, as part of a wide range of DA/SA/hammer-fired models. I would venture to say they are the largest manufacturer of such pistols, only having one polymer/striker-fired in the lineup, the P250.

easyg
April 13, 2013, 01:27 PM
I don't think it's really an issue between striker vs hammer so much as it's an issue between DA/SA vs other trigger systems.

Most folks that I know prefer a consistent trigger-pull, from the first shot to the last shot.

Weevil
April 13, 2013, 02:20 PM
You can get a consistent trigger pull from a DA/SA, you just cock the hammer before you shoot.


Admittedly this does require some conscious effort and motor skills at a critical and high stress moment.

And according to court rulings in several police shootings, cocking the hammer somehow implies intent to shoot or kill or some such nonsense. These rulings however are one of the reasons that most law-enforcement agencies required their officers to switch over to DAO triggers.

With a DA/SA you have the option of hard first pull to prevent an accidental discharge during a high stres moment, or switching over to a really nice light trigger if there is the time or need to take aim for an accurate shot.

Most striker fired DAO triggers are a compromise between the two, not as stiff and long as a true DA trigger but not as short and quick as an SA. So basically you get a consistently mediocre trigger pull.


That being said the only pistols I currently carry for CCW are DAO pistols. A consistent trigger pull and no need to do anything but pull the trigger in a split second is a comforting thought to me.

Kiln
April 13, 2013, 03:30 PM
You're getting around to the issue there. DA/SA is falling out of favor. The preference is just to avoid the changing of the pull weight between shots.

There are still people that like the action type, and its not flawed to any serious degree, but the majority of consumers and law enforcement seem have been trending to striker fired designs (or DAO designs) for the better part of 3 decades now. A lot of the DA/SA designs that are still popular today have been around for a good long while - there are some new ones coming on the market but not a lot.



There are millions of striker fired guns being carried daily. Nearly every law enforcement officer in the nation carries a striker fired gun. In the 25-30 years that they've been common on the market, I don't think I've EVER heard of one just "going off". Trust me, the design is safe. Even if sear were to fail releasing the striker every striker fired gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block that still wouldn't let it touch a live round unless the trigger was pulled).
I agree completely. I've got all kinds of guns with different action types but in a defensive gun, I want a consistent trigger pull. If I'm carrying a DA/SA I want it to be something I can carry cocked and locked.

This is why I'm amazed that the US government went with the Beretta again. I guess cost trumps all sometimes.

1858
April 13, 2013, 10:01 PM
but they are rather dated designs now and technology has moved us in a different direction.

There's nothing new about striker fired pistols either. The Ortgies 7.65 mm striker fired pistol is almost 100 years old. The Borchardt is over 130 years old.

Sam1911
April 13, 2013, 10:23 PM
There's nothing new about striker fired pistols either. The Ortgies 7.65 mm striker fired pistol is almost 100 years old. The Borchardt is over 130 years old.I actually didn't say the technology is NEW. I said the current trend is moving us in that direction. Call DA/SA an evolutionary dead-end if you like. There's very little truly "new" under the sun.

Billy Shears
April 14, 2013, 01:04 AM
There's nothing new about striker fired pistols either. The Ortgies 7.65 mm striker fired pistol is almost 100 years old. The Borchardt is over 130 years old.
One thing about them is new: the "partially cocked" striker. Previous striker-fired designs were either true single actions, like the Ortgies or the Mauser M1914 or the Borchardt or the Luger, in which the striker was held at the fully cocked position, and released by the trigger press; or true double actions, like the H&K VP70, or the little-known Thomas .45, where the striker was uncocked, and the mainspring under no tension, necessitating a long, heavy trigger pull to first cock and then release the striker.

Most modern striker-fired pistols take after the Glock in having the striker partially retracted, and the mainspring under some tension, but not enough to fire round if a mechanical failure should allow the striker to fly forward from that position. The trigger press then draws back the striker the rest of the way before releasing it. This easily allows a reasonably light, short trigger pull, say between 4 and 6 pounds, which is ideal for a self-defense pistol. Such a trigger can have a much shorter pull and reset, as well as being lighter than a true double action, and at the same time not be so light and short as to make negligent discharges too likely. Most shooters today see it as the ideal compromise.

easyg
April 14, 2013, 03:33 AM
With a DA/SA you have the option of hard first pull to prevent an accidental discharge during a high stres moment,
And herein lies the problem with the DA/SA system:

Some folks rely upon it to prevent an unintended discharge....
when they should have kept their finger off the trigger till the target was in their sights and they were prepared to shoot.

1858
April 14, 2013, 12:17 PM
And herein lies the problem with the DA/SA system:

Some folks rely upon it to prevent an unintended discharge....
when they should have kept their finger off the trigger till the target was in their sights and they were prepared to shoot.

Who are the "some folks" you refer to?

easyg
April 14, 2013, 02:51 PM
Anyone who believes that a long heavy DA trigger-pull means that it's okay to keep their finger on the trigger with no target in their sights and no deliberate intention to shoot said target.

Weevil
April 14, 2013, 03:07 PM
Well the problem is they have the target in their sights and the gun aimed and the light trigger gets pulled unintentionally due to adrenalin rush or extreme stress.

There was a video of a police woman who was covering her partner as he handcuffed a suspect on the ground. In the heat of the moment she accidentally fires the pistol just missing the suspect and her partner by inches.

As I recall it was a Glock she was holding.

This is the reason some PDs like New York reqire a heavier trigger spring in their issued Glocks.

shooter_from_show-me
April 14, 2013, 04:01 PM
CZ Shadow the new slim line

I was going to say CZ Phantom. Love carrying mine with some Cajun Gun Works parts installed and polishing the action some it is a very nice shooter.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

1858
April 14, 2013, 04:42 PM
And herein lies the problem with the DA/SA system:


Anyone who believes that a long heavy DA trigger-pull means that it's okay to keep their finger on the trigger with no target in their sights and no deliberate intention to shoot said target.

Bad technique is bad technique regardless of the system. It's not the fault of a DA/SA trigger that "some folks" have their finger on the trigger when they shouldn't. "Some folks" have had an ND attempting to disassemble a GLOCK because you have to pull the trigger to disassemble ... so is GLOCK a problem too because some idiot put a hole in his thigh.

Orion8472
April 15, 2013, 09:26 AM
Thanks for the great read, guys. I have decided to stick with the eventual release of the 9mm XDs. I examined the 45acp version over the weekend and am comfortable with the mechanism. It feels good in my hand and has a good trigger pull. So, . . . the [eventual] XDs in 9mm will be the gun I will carry.

Until then, I'll just keep carrying my old F.I. Industries Model D 380acp.

Batty67
April 15, 2013, 09:40 AM
If CZ made a 2075 RAMI single-stack, everything exactly the same as for double-stack 9mm BS, except thinner, I'd be 100% good to go. I really like my CZ RAMI BD, but it is chunkier than I'd like.

Orion8472
April 15, 2013, 10:35 AM
My brother has the Rami. He likes it. I'm okay with it. I find it WAY too fat for my carry needs. Seems that the bore axis is a bit higher than the other 75 models.

But, if they made a thin single stack, or even an Shield style of semi-staggard magazine, . . . I would be interested in that as well. I doubt that will happen, though.

JustinJ
April 15, 2013, 11:30 AM
You can get a consistent trigger pull from a DA/SA, you just cock the hammer before you shoot.


Admittedly this does require some conscious effort and motor skills at a critical and high stress moment.

Unless one has a unique anatomy this isn't possible to do while maintaining a proper grip. I initially bought my HKP2000sk bc DA/SA appealed to me. Now i'm in the process of deciding which LE DAO version i will convert to. To draw, cock and fire will always be slower than just drawing and shooting.

HK, like FN, has stayed with DA/SA with DAO as an available option. I think the Beretta Storm is DA/SA as well. It seems Europeans may still favor DA/SA.

Landric
April 15, 2013, 11:31 AM
The Star Ultrastar was a 9x19 polymer frame single-stack compact available back in the 90's. Good luck finding one now.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/Landric/Ultrastar.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Landric/media/Ultrastar.jpg.html)

I always wanted the all metal, SA only, .45 ACP version, the Firestar IIRC. I never did get one.

I suppose I am starting to be "old", having turned 40 this year. I grew up in the 80's when the Beretta 92 was one of "the" guns. My first carry gun (before I was a cop) was a Beretta 92FS Compact. I bought my first several handguns before the 1994 ban, and at the time there were not a lot of small carry guns available, not in "service" calibers anyway.

My first duty gun was a Beretta 92, and I wasn't issued a striker-fired gun until 2004. I've always been a fan of, and expect I always will be a fan of, DA/SA metal frame pistols. I have my share of striker fired guns with polymer frames, and while I appreciate their functionality, I don't enjoy them as much as DA/SA metal pistols, nor do I find them to be better weapons.

I spent a lot of time shooting my Beretta 92s, and I got to the point where I didn't even notice the transition from DA to SA. My finger and mind were trained for it, it was a complete non-issue. I can think of at least one person who is alive today because I was carrying a Beretta 92 and not a Glock, he pulled a toy gun out of his waistband (I think in an effort to get me to shoot him) and as I was pulling the DA trigger of my Beretta I realized his "gun" was a toy. If I had been carrying a Glock, 1911, or some other short trigger weapon I would have shot him. It was very close at is was.

If I were to pick a 9mm duty gun today, it would be a Beretta 92G Centurion. The one thing I don't like about the 92 series is the slide mounted safety, and the G models dispense with that. If I was to pick any duty gun, it would be the most recent version of the S&W 4566TSW with a decocker only and the integral frame rail. Both are DA/SA, and sadly, I don't think either is still in production.

tipoc
April 15, 2013, 10:38 PM
Why not more companies making slim DA/SA hammer fired pistols?

How slim were you thinking of? What size gun?

tipoc

Orion8472
April 16, 2013, 09:34 AM
No more than an inch wide, . . . . . and closer to .8" would be better.

tipoc
April 16, 2013, 12:16 PM
What calibers were you considering?

tipoc

Orion8472
April 16, 2013, 12:44 PM
I was wanting to have at least 9mm. Currently carry a 380acp and was wanting to have a more "potent" round.

If I were going to stick with 380acp, I would just look to get a Bersa CC 380, . . . but would rather go 9mm.

Thaddeus Jones
April 16, 2013, 12:48 PM
The next generation of shooters appears very willing to accept firearms we older shooters would consider to be substandard. Based on construction, materials, trigger and inherent accuracy.

Polymer striker fired guns with lousy triggers are cheap to make. Mark them up astronomically and people will still wait to buy them. Creates a cottage industry for aftermarket triggers and barrels to make them shoot like they should have out of the box as well.

Sig and Beretta still make metal framed DA/SA guns. I will buy from them. They still make good looking, well made handguns that I desire. :)

If there was one "gun guy" left at the current company calling itself S&W, the 3914 that they currently produce at their Houlton ME plant, for the NYPD, would be available for everyone to purchase.

But then, if it were, who would still line up to buy their "m&p" or panty shield? ;)

tipoc
April 16, 2013, 01:26 PM
Orion8472,

It will take some looking to find a piece as slim as you'd like in 9mm. The older H&K P7 might have done but they are out of production and not da/sa.

You may have to compromise some on the width. Best to go to a gun show and as many shops as you can and hold the guns in your hand. Some guns measure wide but in practice are slimmer. Meaning that they are measured across their widest part while across the slide and grip area they are slimmer.

Take a look at the Bersa "Thunder Pro Ultra Compact". It's a da/sa piece, wider than you want, maybe, but worth a look.

Sig, H&K, Walther, S&W, etc. all make what you may be interested in.

Don't overlook used guns.

You may have to go through 2 or 3 guns over the years before you find the one that's "just right".

tipoc

Sam1911
April 16, 2013, 01:34 PM
Sig and Beretta still make metal framed DA/SA guns. I will buy from them. They still make good looking, well made handguns that I desire.See, but it isn't neccessarily an issue of "substandard" or crappy or even "new generation" syndrome.

When I pick up an M&P or xD or even a Glock and shoot it in practical applications, it really works for me.

When I pick up a Sig or Beretta I instantly find myself thinking, "Wow, I'm glad we're not stuck with THIS any more!" Lots of negatives, few positives -- for my hands, and my style of shooting.

It's all a matter of taste and what works for you.

Or, in the broader sense, what works the "bestest for the mostest".

Orion8472
April 16, 2013, 03:40 PM
tipoc, the main issue with needing thin is due to carry. I know guys can carry full size 1911's. . . . and more power to 'em. But for me, especially in summer, I need as slim as I can get.

kokapelli
April 16, 2013, 03:53 PM
Seems that most handguns that come out in 9mm now soon become available in 40 and 45 cal as well which makes me believe that these pistols were designed for the larger caliber to begin with and therefore thicker than necessary for 9mm.

It would be nice if pistols would be designed specifically for 9mm and than could be made thinner.

I really liked the very slim Tokarev pistol but it is a single action.

tipoc
April 16, 2013, 04:39 PM
Orion8472,

Well I figured it was for carry. I asked "how thin" to get an idea of what you considered thin. Some consider the M&P line thin.

It's also why I mentioned you may need to compromise some to get the 9mm you're looking for.

By the way, 1911s are thinner through the area of the slide than guns you've mentioned as being thin. They are just over .915 thick or so. Less than an inch. Through the area of the grips just over 1.200 with thin grips. This is thinner than most da/sa guns on the market and thinner than most polymer guns in 9mm. But they aren't what you're looking for so I didn't mention them.

Though I should mention the ParaOrd LDA guns. A breed of da/sa 1911 based guns.

I recommend you go to as many stores as you can and hold the guns in your hand with an eye to CCW. It's only in that way you will be able to feel the difference for yourself.

A lot of folks have recommend specific ds/sa guns to you. Now go take a look.

tipoc

Sam1911
April 16, 2013, 04:45 PM
By the way, 1911s are thinner through the area of the slide than guns you've mentioned as being thin.Wow, I was going to say the same thing! You want THINNER than a 1911? Is there such a thing? The 1911 is about the easiest-carrying gun I've ever tried!

(And, a set of thin grips makes it even easier!)

Orion8472
April 16, 2013, 04:58 PM
Thanks for the suggestions and help. I'll find something [eventually], I'm sure.

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