20 shots to kill a dog


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Tommy.Gun
March 15, 2004, 06:24 PM
Cops' gunfire draws questions and probe
BY BEN SCHMITT
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

March 15, 2004



Kevin Claiborne's 2-year-old daughter Kaila pointed to her front window in her east-side Detroit home in the pleasant East English Village neighborhood.

"The police shoot the window," she said.

When her dad asked why, she replied: "They killed a dog."

It happened Jan. 13. The four-legged suspect, named Bugsy, was loose, and the cops said it attacked them. They nailed Bugsy after firing more than 20 shots. Their bullets also hit two houses and a plastic tank filled with gas.

The Detroit Police Department's internal affairs unit and Office of the Chief Investigator, which handles citizen complaints, are investigating the incident, involving three officers from the 5th (Jefferson) Precinct.

Claiborne, who is a Detroit firefighter, is still livid when he talks about the officers running up and down his block on Harvard and firing their guns repeatedly. One of the shots went through his front window as he was holding his daughter in the kitchen, slamming into a wall several feet from them.

"I still don't really know how the bullet missed us," Claiborne said. "There must have been an angel in the room."

His neighbors, Gerald and Candace Wheeler, surveyed the damage to their two-car garage in awe after the police killed Bugsy, a 1-year-old Neapolitan mastiff who died in an alley a block away at Grayton, near Chandler Park Drive.

There are eight bullet holes in the garage. One bullet grazed the plastic handle of a full gas can inside the garage.

"That gas can could have easily blown up," said Gerald Wheeler.

After the officers killed the dog, Wheeler said one of them approached him and nonchalantly uttered, "Wow, your garage looks like a piece of Swiss cheese."

"I asked him, 'Who is going to pay for this?' " Wheeler said. "He told me to turn it in to my insurance company."

Then there's the dog's owner, Timothy Johnson, who lives on Grayton. He bought the dog as a family pet on Christmas Eve 2002 to surprise his 3-year-old daughter Jordan. Johnson said Bugsy, who was about 150 pounds, dug his way out of a kennel in the backyard while the family was out.

"This was really unnecessary," Johnson, 41, said. "I grew up in Detroit and Highland Park and I really don't want to give the city a bad rap, but Bugsy was not a vicious dog. If the officers would have taken a little time, they could have easily found out who owned the dog."

Wheeler and Claiborne attended the Feb. 26 Board of Police Commissioners meeting to air their complaints. Assistant Chief Walter Shoulders said the matter is under investigation internally.

The two men subsequently filed a complaint against the three officers with the department's Office of the Chief Investigator. Arnold Sheard, the department's interim chief investigator, would not release the officers' names Thursday because the investigation is ongoing.

The Free Press learned one of the officers is Aaron Haley. He declined comment.

Cmdr. Charles Barbieri of the 5th Precinct said the three officers were sent to a remedial firearms course after the incident, which he called standard procedure. The officers responded at 5 p.m. after a resident called police about the loose dog.

"I don't think it was a questionable shooting," Barbieri said. "They had a vicious dog and they had to shoot it. It's fairly common. I know it did take a few shots to put the dog down."

Wheeler and Claiborne counted more than 20 shell casings on the street and in their yards.

"It was a dog, and there are bullet holes in my garage," Candace Wheeler said. "A dog! It really doesn't makes you feel too good about the police force."

Johnson, the owner, said he's discussing the matter with an attorney and just wants the city to replace Bugsy.

Lemuel Joyner, who lives around the corner on Grayton, said he questioned one of the officers after hearing a barrage of gunshots.

"He said the dog had attacked him," Joyner said. "I'm wondering how he was running after a dog down an alley, shooting his gun, if the dog was attacking him."

Joyner said the dog had been loose at least one other time but never had attacked anyone.

"That dog did not have a violent bone in its body," he said.

Gerald Wheeler said he can't help but wonder how this incident would have been handled in the suburbs.

"These officers treated it like it was nothing," he said. "We never heard from them again. It's the attitude that left me with a bad feeling."


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Grey54956
March 15, 2004, 07:01 PM
Hmmmmm... Interesting.

Once again, I find myself doubting whether police officers should be issued firearms as standard equipment. Perhpas they should have to apply for a carry permit, take carry classes, and be judged by the same standards as non-police.

Seriously, it sounds like these clowns were having a good ol' time shootin' up the town.

On another note, I love the fact that people question how a bullet didn't miraculously hit them or their loved ones as if a bullet is a smart bomb built to home in on people. Or, how any can of gas will apparently explode at the slightest touch. This is what happens when movies become the primary source of education in this country.

patent
March 15, 2004, 07:05 PM
Insane. What a mess. This quote made me chuckle a bit though:

"That dog did not have a violent bone in its body," he said.

Its a Mastiff. Exactly what does he think those dogs were raised to do? I'm sure it treated his kids well, but they are known for that. Strangers can be another matter entirely. I know, I know, his is probably different, couldn't hurt a flea.

These dogs are huge, and if not trained well, esp. if left alone for long periods, can be dangerous. To say it didn't have a violent bone in its body is to completely misunderstand your pet. Its violence can be contained by proper training, but by its nature and breeding its a powerful guard dog.

patent

jdkelly
March 15, 2004, 07:41 PM
A 150 pound dog attacks police officers, and there is no mention of wounds? Show a single bite mark and the story washes.

Surely a 150 pound dog would scratch the skin in an attack. If they don't have wounds, and I don't know that they don't, how were they attacked?

If the dog only postured, at what would have to be fairly close range for the officers to be threatened, how could they miss?

I guess there is just not enough of the story out there.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

armoredman
March 15, 2004, 07:47 PM
No OC? Pepper spray works on dogs - it was designed as an animal repellant, after all. Running and shooting? Too much Hollywood.
Why do they always show bullets cause huge sparks in the movies, bullets made of non sparking material, i.e., lead and copper?:banghead:
Idiots. OTOH, I did hear of a pt bull that took 10 rounds of 9mm at PBR to kill it, delivered from a Glock. Dogs are tougher than we are.
City needs to pay for the damage, then if the officers are found negligent, it comes out of thier wallets.

jdkelly
March 15, 2004, 08:12 PM
armoredman,

I always thought that Hollywoods sparks from bullets hitting buildings was, well Hollywood. That was until I saw video from Iraq, where bullets hitting were causing sparks. Perhaps there was metal on the building, I don't know. But the video clip looked almost as fake as a movie.

Respectfully,

jdkelly

Standing Wolf
March 15, 2004, 08:14 PM
Only cops need guns.

Third_Rail
March 15, 2004, 08:44 PM
"That gas can could have easily blown up," said Gerald Wheeler.

:barf:

Try again, Mr. Wheeler.

P95Carry
March 15, 2004, 08:52 PM
the three officers were sent to a remedial firearms course Was this to let them practice so as to only expend 10 shots instead of 20??

Or was it hoping to increase accuracy enough to actually hit a dog sized target.?:p

(Rules #2 and #4 guys!)

Cosmoline
March 15, 2004, 08:53 PM
A 150 pound dog attacks police officers, and there is no mention of wounds? Show a single bite mark and the story washes.

A keen observation! I've seen what a 60 lb shepherd can do in a matter of seconds. A 150 lb giant would certainly leave a mark!

The number of shots is high, but not astonishing. Dogs can take a lot of lead, and duty sidearms are NOT the ideal weapon for using against a fast-moving four-legged critter. I've seen enough "Animal Cops--Detroit" to know even their specialists don't know what the devil they're doing half the time.

jobu07
March 15, 2004, 08:59 PM
Yeah, that gas can remarks kinda bothers me. People think that it's just going to spontaneously explode if a bullet strikes it. It was probably a plastic gas can too... But even if it was metal, the odds of a "spark" from the bullet hitting it igniting the gas is so remote.... Unless the cops where started being issued tracers :p

PATH
March 15, 2004, 09:06 PM
Know your target and what is beyond. Don't take the shot if you can't take it safely. I'd rather get bit than shot. Sounds like a bit of shoot em up Dodge City stuff. It would be funny except those loose rounds damn near killed innocent people.

Big time disciplinary action on this one and several major lawsuits to boot!
It seems that some serious training is in order here to prevent this type of dangerous shooting behavior.

Poor judgement was exercised in this instance regardless of the poochie running loose! :uhoh:

Watchman
March 15, 2004, 09:27 PM
A 150 pound dog attacks police officers, and there is no mention of wounds? Show a single bite mark and the story washes.

As long as I'm carrying a gun, I AINT getting bit by a dog.
Period.


Anybody that waits till a dog bits them before shooting it has obviously never seen what a big dog can do to a human in a matter of seconds.I have,thus the determination to not get bit.

I worked a case where two pit bulls attacked a woman and killed her in less than 2 minutes. A bloody mess it was.

In case anyone misunderstands me, I aint getting bit.

In every single dog shooting I've ever seen or heard about the owners INSIST that the dog is not violent. Nothing new there....

The Real Hawkeye
March 15, 2004, 09:39 PM
Its a Mastiff. Exactly what does he think those dogs were raised to do? I'm sure it treated his kids well, but they are known for that. Strangers can be another matter entirely.Really? Then I'm sure the cop was willing to show everyone his bite wounds. A dog that big who "attacked" him would certainly cause wounds serious enough to justify a trip to the hospital for the cop. But, I guarantee he had NO BITE WOUNDS. There was NO ATTACK. The dog probably looked at him suspiciously, and the cop just figured he could do what he wanted, and no one would question it, because he's a cop.

tex_n_cal
March 15, 2004, 09:45 PM
I have met one Neo Mastiff - even at six months he was a big, massive dog. He was almost a gunmetal blue in color, with yellow eyes. Although the one I met was well behaved, he wasn't especially friendly.

I really can't recall a more intimidating looking dog, when he stared at you. They make Rottweilers look like clowns. I suspect the dog just looked at the cops, and they spooked. He was probably an expensive dog, and I hope the owner gets his money back.
:fire:

P95Carry
March 15, 2004, 09:51 PM
Just thought ... and leaving aside rights and wrongs ... I wonder what the leash laws are in MI .. or specifically, in Detroit.

A very large dog that is not legally ''on the streets'' ... when it should be on a leash or contained within the boundaries of an owner's property .. could sometimes be seen as both a threat and an illegality.

Just wondering how this colors things. .. ignore for now the ''20 shots''!!

Car Knocker
March 15, 2004, 10:05 PM
About the gas can...granted, a bullet puncturing a can won't cause it to explode. However, many homes have a water heater and/or a furnace installed in the garage. The vapors from a punctured can could easily come in contact with a pilot light and cause an explosion. There's also a possibility that activating an electric garage door opener could cause ignition, either from the contact in the switch or sparking of the metal components in the track if not properly lubricated if someone opened the door to vent the garage.

Kestrel
March 15, 2004, 11:35 PM
What is the difference between a regular English Mastiff and a Neopolitan Mastiff?

Steve

mete
March 15, 2004, 11:42 PM
Now I know that it takes eight rounds to kill a garage !!....I wouldn't want to take chances with a 150lb mastiff but if I had to shoot I'd shoot the dog not anything else.

The Real Hawkeye
March 15, 2004, 11:42 PM
What is the difference between a regular English Mastiff and a Neopolitan Mastiff?The Neo is from Italy. "Mastiff" is a general term referring to any massive large dog intended to guard property. Many nations have a Mastiff type breed. Rich people used to commonly keep them to guard their estates.

tthiel
March 15, 2004, 11:51 PM
I have a French mastiff who wouldn't hurt a fly. These cops should be fired. Idiots.

freewheeling
March 16, 2004, 12:06 AM
A keen observation! I've seen what a 60 lb shepherd can do in a matter of seconds. A 150 lb giant would certainly leave a mark!

I have been attacked by a German Shephard and if I'd had a gun I'd have shot the critter. The animal did not "complete" the attack, fortunately, because there were enough people yelling at it that I guess it broke off. I doubt that I'd have taken 20 shots to kill the animal though. The notion that these policement ought to have waited until the dog actually injured them seems like something of a double standard. That's not the standard that would apply if one were attacked by a human. Could a person reasonably expect that the animal or human posed a threat of either serious physical injury or death? End of story.

Whether it was prudent to fire in those circumstances is another matter. One assumes that police would be held to a higher standard with regard to potential harm to the public than would a "normal" human.

Anyway, this happened in England right? So your normal average human wouldn't have had the option to shoot.

Chairman Meow
March 16, 2004, 12:14 AM
I saw video from Iraq, where bullets hitting were causing sparks. Perhaps there was metal on the building, I don't know.

Most military ammo has steel penetrator tips IIRC. I was at a range last fall that caught on fire because of the sparks produced by mil-surplus ammo hitting rocks. I have never heard of handgun ammo having steel penetrator tips though. Also, gasoline won't really impact detonate, right? Now if those people had some tannerite in the garage...

larry_minn
March 16, 2004, 12:21 AM
Sounds bad. I have been attacked (have marks to prove it from first one) THEN I learned how to deal with attacking dog. (not two) They sound like me when chasing racoons. Thing is I have safe backstop and nothing for over half mile in most directions. To do this in major city......BAD

J Jones
March 16, 2004, 12:26 AM
Or, how any can of gas will apparently explode at the slightest touch. This is what happens when movies become the primary source of education in this country.

As has been mentioned, leaking gas only has to find a source of ignition. The radiant heat from a recently parked cars catalytic converter might do it.

Doesn't anyone find it hard to believe how the threatened officers had to chase the "fearsome beast" in order to shoot it?


http://www.neapolitan.com/brigitte.jpg

freewheeling
March 16, 2004, 01:12 AM
Doesn't anyone find it hard to believe how the threatened officers had to chase the "fearsome beast" in order to shoot it?

If I had shot an animal I'd consider it more or less of an obligation to track or chase it until I'd finished it off. Wouldn't you? But I'm just speculating about what happened.

I had a friend with a "Bull Mastiff." If this dog was anything like that dog, the words "fearsome beast" hardly do it justice.

The_Antibubba
March 16, 2004, 02:21 AM
Most dogs, despite their breed, want to please their humans. Some of the friendliest, sweetest dogs I've known were Pitbulls or Pit mixes. Still, they can turn. Maybe shooting a stray dog can be justified. But having a lower percentage of hits than a Crips drive-by is reckless endangerment.

c_yeager
March 16, 2004, 02:51 AM
Most dogs, despite their breed, want to please their humans. Some of the friendliest, sweetest dogs I've known were Pitbulls or Pit mixes. Still, they can turn.

Remember that Mastiffs are specifically bred to be guard dogs. Even if they arent TRAINED in that capacity their insitictive and aggresive territoriality will remain. Ever notice how an untrained shepard breed will STILL try to herd things?

A 150 pound dog attacks police officers, and there is no mention of wounds? Show a single bite mark and the story washes.

Wanna try a test to figure this one out?

If you ahve a gun in your hand and a 150 lb dog charging at you are you WAITING to see what it does? Have you ever seen a 150lb dog? My folks have a Malaumute that is about this heavy. Let me tell you thats an animal that can knock a grown man off his feet by bumping into him real hard. If he wanted you dead and he is 20 feet away you've got MAYBE 3 seconds to find a way out of the situation.

gwalchmai
March 16, 2004, 09:09 AM
Another "cop shoots dog" thread. These things always go the same way. No matter how many shots are fired or civilians barely missed, there are cops who will absolutely defend the shooting, then complain about the lack of community support.

Sorry guys, but in the America in which most of us were raised, the popular image of the policeman does not include him shooting family pets. Such actions are always going to be viewed (rightly) with suspicion, and the "collateral damage" in this case just begs for a lawsuite.

jdkelly
March 16, 2004, 09:22 AM
"As long as I'm carrying a gun, I AINT getting bit by a dog.
Period."--Watchman

"Anybody that waits till a dog bits them before shooting it has obviously never seen what a big dog can do to a human in a matter of seconds.I have,thus the determination to not get bit."--Watchman


Watchman,

One of the officers said they were attacked, and a bite mark would wash their protection argument. Of course their shooting skills (safety) would still be in question. Their department seems to think that the officers response was a little troubling, at least in regard to safety.

But if there is not a witness or any physical evidence of an attack, then there might not have been one. Perhaps, encountering a 150 pound dog scared them, as it might you and me, and they reacted as you suggest you might.

With so little information I wouldn't dare suggest that the shooting was wrong or right. But, I would like to have seen some evidence, which is not always possible to obtain, to justify the shooting. Of course there are no bite marks from a dog shot while aggressively posturing.

Perhaps the statment attributed to the officer being of "attacked" was incorrect, perhaps it wasn't.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

TechBrute
March 16, 2004, 09:31 AM
Only cops need guns.
SW, that's funny every time.

"I asked him, 'Who is going to pay for this?' " Wheeler said. "He told me to turn it in to my insurance company." I'm glad to see that the police are expressing concern for the damage they caused.:rolleyes:

"These officers treated it like it was nothing," he said. "We never heard from them again. It's the attitude that left me with a bad feeling." They shot up your house and never aplogized?:rolleyes:

Isn't this what animal control is for?:confused: My first impression is that the cops were just eager to discharge their firearms.

20 rounds? Sounds like spray and pray.

Trebor
March 16, 2004, 09:31 AM
Anyway, this happened in England right? So your normal average human wouldn't have had the option to shoot.

Uhhh, No. This was in Detroit.



The Detroit PD is known for having serious problems relating to the training and (lack) of professional standards of their officers. They are not really known for their professionalism, and this is just the latest in a long string of incidents in what appears to be both an inappropriate use of force and lack of basic firearms training.

Heck, even if they did need to shoot the dog (I'm not convinced they did), they shouldn't have wound up spraying rounds all over the neighborhood.

P95Carry
March 16, 2004, 10:31 AM
I posted this earlier in the thread .. no one has picked up on it ... so .... any views from this angle?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just thought ... and leaving aside rights and wrongs ... I wonder what the leash laws are in MI .. or specifically, in Detroit.

A very large dog that is not legally ''on the streets'' ... when it should be on a leash or contained within the boundaries of an owner's property .. could sometimes be seen as both a threat and an illegality.

Just wondering how this colors things. .. ignore for now the ''20 shots''!!

gwalchmai
March 16, 2004, 10:38 AM
P95Carry wrote:
A very large dog that is not legally ''on the streets'' ... when it should be on a leash or contained within the boundaries of an owner's property .. could sometimes be seen as both a threat and an illegality. A leash law with an immediately administerable punishment of death.

Let's further consider such a concept. Would police dogs which have been released by their handlers be subject to the same punishment at the hands of citizens?

freewheeling
March 16, 2004, 10:45 AM
Uhhh, No. This was in Detroit.

Sorry, I saw the "East English Village" part of the sentence, but not the "Detroit" section. I guess East English Village is a subdivision of some sort.

I agree with you about spraying bullets through the neighborhood, of course.

P95Carry
March 16, 2004, 10:49 AM
A leash law with an immediately administerable punishment of death. Hey - I was not trying to imply that! :p

I was wondering firstly, what the leash laws were in that area. And from that .. wishing to relate same to what might be regarded as ''reasonable'' action by cops, or anyone for that matter .. if encountering a lose dog - and certainly one that might be seen as a threat.

If some old lady's Chiwhawha (spl?) ... is tootling along the sidewalk unaccompanied ... I doubt anyone would be in fear of an attack ... other than a noble nip to an ankle!!! If however a roaming mastiff or rotty is sharing public space .... it could put a different slant on things.

gwalchmai
March 16, 2004, 10:54 AM
If some old lady's Chiwhawha (spl?) ... is tootling along the sidewalk unaccompanied ... I doubt anyone would be in fear of an attack ... other than a noble nip to an ankle!!! If however a roaming mastiff or rotty is sharing public space .... it could put a different slant on things.Yet there have been cases of lap dogs being shot by "officers", and that action justified by other officers because of the enormous potential injury any dogbite can inflict.

As to your other point, if shooting a roaming rotty or mastiff in a public space is justifiable because of its potential threat, aren't we all subject to summary execution? ;)

patent
March 16, 2004, 11:07 AM
Its a Mastiff. Exactly what does he think those dogs were raised to do? I'm sure it treated his kids well, but they are known for that. Strangers can be another matter entirely. Really? Then I'm sure the cop was willing to show everyone his bite wounds. A dog that big who "attacked" him would certainly cause wounds serious enough to justify a trip to the hospital for the cop. But, I guarantee he had NO BITE WOUNDS. There was NO ATTACK. The dog probably looked at him suspiciously, and the cop just figured he could do what he wanted, and no one would question it, because he's a cop.

If the dog just looked at him, then yes, the shooting wasn't justified, IMHO. However, you raise a false dichotomy when you seem to claim its either the dog just looked at him, or it bit him. Most of the time, after he looks at you and before he bites you, he has to turn and start to run at you. You generally have some growling and barking. You also have a leap or lunge where it tries to bite you. IMHO, a dog this size, once it turns and runs at you, its in attack mode and its a good shoot.


I don’t mean any offense, but if you wait until a Mastiff bites you to defend yourself, you are a fool. Once he is on top of you, not to mention biting, you are most likely done fighting, and merely trying hard to stop him from killing you before he gets bored with you. You are all but out of the fight for all practical purposes. 140 pounds of fast moving dog will bowl you over, and if he gets his teeth sunk in he will shred you and fast.

At that point you have to hope your fellow officers are good enough shots that they can pick the dog off of you, without hitting you. They certainly aren’t going to wrestle him off. Given the officers on the scene, its obvious that wasn’t going to happen.

These officers had horrible gun control. Once the dog ran away, there is no way they should have been shooting, though I agree that they should have tracked it down to ensure its not a danger (and called whoever does animal control, as obviously these guys had no animal control abilities). Shooting once the danger is passed is bad, especially when you are in spray and pray mode.

So I fault them for their follow up, it was dangerous to say the least, and I’d rather their guns were locked up, they obviously aren’t well enough disciplined to use them.

However, I don’t fault them for not having bite marks. I don’t know what this dog did, but if I had a gun and a mastiff turned, growled and started to pick up some speed in my direction, I’d be shooting too.

LONG before I had a bite mark to satisfy the keyboard warriors.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard folks say they would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. To me, that applies here, this kind of dog was bread for war, fighting, and killing intruders onto his master’s estate. He is good at it.

patent

P95Carry
March 16, 2004, 11:11 AM
gwalchmai .. again you seem to miss my direction.if shooting a roaming rotty or mastiff in a public space is justifiable because of its potential threat, aren't we all subject to summary execution? I have not said a shooting is justifiable .. I am purely ''fishing'' for input and opinion. Circumstances alter events .. it's a case by case thing as far as decision making is concerned.

I am considering simply the ''how and why'' with regard to any leash laws .... NOT making judgements over ''execution'' parameters!

patent
March 16, 2004, 11:15 AM
What is the difference between a regular English Mastiff and a Neopolitan Mastiff?

Size and colorings are the obvious ones. Neapolitan can have different colorings, but are generally greyish, like the picture on this thread. A standard Mastiff (english mastiff) tends to have a tannnish color, though I suspect there are variations, and I'm not an expert. I believe the standard Mastiff tends to be larger, up to 200 pounds, while the Neapolitan runs 110-150, or so.

They are probably highly interrelated, genetically, though there are different theories on how or why they interbred.

patent

gwalchmai
March 16, 2004, 11:20 AM
gwalchmai .. again you seem to miss my direction.

I have not said a shooting is justifiable .. I am purely ''fishing'' for input and opinion. Circumstances alter events .. it's a case by case thing as far as decision making is concerned.

I am considering simply the ''how and why'' with regard to any leash laws .... NOT making judgements over ''execution'' parameters!Yes, it does seem as though I'm picking on you, but really I'm not, and I apologize. I'm simply extending the thought to its ultimate conclusion.

For the record, if I'm walking down the road and a mastiff comes toward me in what I consider a threatening manner, I'm going to take whatever steps I feel necessary to protect myself. And I fully expect anyone else, including LEOs, to do the same.

At the same time, if I empty my firearm into surrounding houses I can't really expect my story of a threat to be taken seriously.

jdkelly
March 16, 2004, 03:48 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A 150 pound dog attacks police officers, and there is no mention of wounds? Show a single bite mark and the story washes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Wanna try a test to figure this one out?

If you ahve a gun in your hand and a 150 lb dog charging at you are you WAITING to see what it does? Have you ever seen a 150lb dog? My folks have a Malaumute that is about this heavy. Let me tell you thats an animal that can knock a grown man off his feet by bumping into him real hard. If he wanted you dead and he is 20 feet away you've got MAYBE 3 seconds to find a way out of the situation."---c_yeager



c_yeager,

My statement that a single bite mark and the story washes stands. Remember, I didn't say that without bite marks that it couldn't wash.

No one said that the dog was charging, only that they (he) was attacked, so you are adding unknown information to the argument (unless I missed it).

And I think you parents dog can cover a lot more than 20 feet of ground in 3 seconds.

Respectfully,

jdkelly

Grey54956
March 16, 2004, 06:44 PM
This should have been handled by animal control in the first place. What really constitutes a dog attack?

Growling: No. Dogs frequently growl at strangers. Heck, dogs sometimes growl at their buddies. When your vocalulary consists of growls, barks, and whining, it's the equivalent of saying that a human is attacking if he asks for some identification or your name.

Barking: Same as above.

Advancing on their position while barking: Nope. Dogs do this when they feel that their territory has been invaded. They do not necessarily mean to attack. The equivalent is telling some kids to get out of your yard.

The only thing that really qualifies as a dog attack is being bit. Everything else is just trying to communicate in an unsure situation.

The cops shooting a dog that they percieve as merely threatening, or with possible ability to attack is like me putting 15 rounds from my BDM into the neighbors terrier when it yaps at me as I leave my house in the morning. Every morning, it yaps right as I step out, and sometimes startles me. Wonder what would happen if I ten-ringed it a dozen times. Probably, I would be in jail. If I hit the neighbors house or car a few times in the process, you would see a witch-hunt. But, since these guys are cops, they must have had good reason.:confused:

kumma
March 16, 2004, 07:17 PM
the area residents should be thankful it wasent a smaller dog or these well trained policemen might have had to call for more ammo, or even SWAT.

TechBrute
March 16, 2004, 07:20 PM
the area residents should be thankful it wasent a smaller dog or these well trained policemen might have had to call for more ammo, or even SWAT. SWAT would have kicked in the wrong doghouse. :D

c_yeager
March 16, 2004, 08:12 PM
And I think you parents dog can cover a lot more than 20 feet of ground in 3 seconds.

Yeah but, he is a slow thinker and he would have to stop to attempt slobbering you to death firsth.

freewheeling
March 16, 2004, 10:19 PM
The only thing that really qualifies as a dog attack is being bit. Everything else is just trying to communicate in an unsure situation.

I'm sorry but this is just too cerebral to be practical. I'm not even sure I need to explain that comment. But I will say that if actually being bitten is the only valid test of an attack, I ain't waitin' 'til I know for sure. And neither would you, when confronted with a Mastiff in such a situation. By the time such an animal is actually able to bite you, he's also actually able to kill you.

Kestrel
March 17, 2004, 12:08 AM
J Jones,

What kind of dog is that? He kind of looks like a gray Scooby Doo!

tex_n_cal
March 17, 2004, 12:24 AM
Steve, that is a Neo.

run a search on the net for "Mastiff" and "Neopolitan Mastiff" and you'll get links to clubs & photos.

Triad
March 17, 2004, 12:32 AM
Whatever happened to pepper and OC spray? What about their Tasers?

The_Antibubba
March 17, 2004, 01:37 AM
SWAT would have kicked in the wrong doghouse.


ROFLOMN!!!! :D :D :D

Freedomv
March 17, 2004, 04:59 AM
I think they had a bad choice of weapons. They should have responded to the call with their riot guns. 12 gauge with #4 shot. Big enough to do the job (close range) and not travel too far to poise a saftey problem. I've put a lot of beef and pork on the table utilizing this combination. and never blew the side out of the barn doing it. Also they are easier to control in tense situations. Of course this is just an observation as not having been there it's easy to coment on other's activities.
My 2 cents worth,
Vern

Trigger
March 17, 2004, 10:06 AM
Sounds like time to trade up to a .45 and take a firearms class. :D

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