What is the gun show loophole?


PDA






JRWhit
April 12, 2013, 08:01 AM
I hear this over and over again and shake my head continually. Can someone explain what the supposed loophole is. Every gun show I have ever been to operates the exact same way as any gun shop I've been to. If I purchase a firearm from one of the vendors, I fill out the same paperwork, and they make the same call to county for the go ahead. The antis keep using this loophole crap over and over and never have I witnessed an FFL holder transfer a firearm at a gunshow without going through the same procedure as any other Sporting store in the area. Are they referring to FTF sales? If so how is this tied to the gun show being the bad guy?

If you enjoyed reading about "What is the gun show loophole?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ltcboy
April 12, 2013, 08:05 AM
The same goes for internet sales. ANY auction I have ever won or sold, must go to an FFL or my C&R. If I bought a non C&R firearm of GB or AA, the seller would not ship until my 01 FFL dealer sent his license. SO as far as this ***** with internet sales being illegal, I dont get it. Are they talking about internet forums in between private sellers?

MIke

BigBore44
April 12, 2013, 08:08 AM
That's exactly what it is referring to. FTF transfers. It has nothing to do with gun shows other than there are many people in one place (usually at a gun show) doing FTF sales. It's just more ignorance or propaganda on the lefts side. The left preys on ignorance.

GEM
April 12, 2013, 01:39 PM
The gun show loophole was at first portrayed, incorrectly, that you could buy a gun at a show from anyone (including FFLs) without a NICS check or CHL where that was allowed.

That was corrected and now the mantra is that the gun show is a place that is an attractive nuisance as it easily allows private sellers to gather and perhaps criminal sales to occur. Some cities have banned gun shows or tried to using the nuisance rationale

That is the story. Arguing that the FFLs must do NICS missed the current point. That is an older version of the argument. It's the easy private sales.

joecil
April 12, 2013, 01:46 PM
The same with internet sales as they can be done with out a background check if private and not requiring shipping. For example say a gun is advertised here in High Road for sale. Now you happen to live in the same state or a neighboring state and will pick it up in person or meet in the middle from a private seller. Well no problem no background check required however if you buy from an auction site or a gun shop site you are required to either go to them in person and do the background check if possible or supply a currently licensed FFL dealer who then does a background check. In some states gun shows also have people selling private arms and may or may not require a background check unless an FFL dealer which most are.

PabloJ
April 12, 2013, 01:49 PM
I hear this over and over again and shake my head continually. Can someone explain what the supposed loophole is. Every gun show I have ever been to operates the exact same way as any gun shop I've been to. If I purchase a firearm from one of the vendors, I fill out the same paperwork, and they make the same call to county for the go ahead. The antis keep using this loophole crap over and over and never have I witnessed an FFL holder transfer a firearm at a gunshow without going through the same procedure as any other Sporting store in the area. Are they referring to FTF sales? If so how is this tied to the gun show being the bad guy?
The 'loophole' is when someone buys firearm from non-FFL dealer (the so called private individual) w/o doing paperwork and background check.

col_temp
April 12, 2013, 02:07 PM
Additionally,
Many gun shows orgs like ours require the background check before getting membership. Sales are to members only. THUS there is NO gun show loophole!

Shadow 7D
April 12, 2013, 02:35 PM
PRIVATE SALES
i.e. everything has to go through a FFL....
maybe it'll end up like 9.229r (no more than 10 non US parts in a not stock rifle) - not enforced much
OR it could be used like any of the NFA tweaks to make lots and lots of things illegal
cause I imagine that lots and lots and lots of gun will be sold to friends... Kinds like the 'in the business of selling firearms' isn't defined vs. hobby trading.

Carl N. Brown
April 12, 2013, 02:54 PM
Private transactions of used guns are about 13% of gun "sales"; you could add about 3% swaps and trades of used guns among private citizens for total of about 16% of all gun acquisitions among the general public according to the NSPOF survey.

Also according to the NSPOF, among law-abiding citizens, 4% of all gun acquisitions are at gun shows plus flea markets. Most of the gun show tranactions I have witnessed have been at licensed dealer tables with 4473 and NICS checks. A number of private sales/trades do occur at local gun shows but they are not a majority of transactions.

According to a Bureau of Justice Statistics survey of state convicts, 1.7% of all criminal gun acquisitions are at guns shows plus flea markets.

More important criminal sources are fences, burglars, drug dealers, smugglers and other dealers in contraband. Criminals do buy used guns "off the streets" a lot, often from fellow criminals, or from familiy or friends of the criminals, and from total strangers who don't care who they sell to.

But the "gunshow loophole" is one of the least important criminal sources of guns.

The "closing the gunshow loophole" is a lot of hype, a focus of effort in the wrong direction, and ultimately a policy with unintended consequences.

I am convinced our "leaders" are idiots or liars or both.

9thchild
April 12, 2013, 02:57 PM
Simply put, there isn't one.

oneounceload
April 12, 2013, 03:20 PM
The same goes for internet sales. ANY auction I have ever won or sold, must go to an FFL or my C&R. If I bought a non C&R firearm of GB or AA, the seller would not ship until my 01 FFL dealer sent his license. SO as far as this ***** with internet sales being illegal, I dont get it. Are they talking about internet forums in between private sellers?


INTRAstate sales are different than INTERstate and do nor require the use of an FFL in many states.

Now you happen to live in the same state or a neighboring state and will pick it up in person or meet in the middle from a private seller. Well no problem no background check required

INCORRECT, crossing state lines require the use of a FFL or you have committed a felony

Deer_Freak
April 12, 2013, 03:33 PM
They call it the gun show loophole to make up something that does not exist. Anti gunners know if they said we want to outlaw personal sales of guns no one would support the law. So they make up ****. Just like online sales that have to go through an FFL. Right now we have the media claiming you can buy a gun online without a background check. The media doesn't mind lying in the least bit. I don't know how they sleep at night.

Shadow 7D
April 12, 2013, 03:38 PM
There is no Loophole
It's just that telling people that they can't sell their property... doesn't go well
HOW do you think the American public would feel if you told them that the could ONLY sell their cars through a car dealership?

That's what this is.

junyo
April 12, 2013, 03:45 PM
It's the Brown Note (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note). It's alligators in the sewer. It's Al Qaeda buying UPS uniforms.

It's an urban legend - nominally based on a dramatically flawed 20 year old survey (http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/the-so-called-gun-show-loophole-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics/) - that lends credibility and the veneer of rationality to the inane screechings of hoplophobes.

Flynt
April 12, 2013, 03:56 PM
I think there is a lot of propaganda and misinformation generated by the anti's and the ignoramuses. A lot of people think that gun shows are like flea markets and nobody requires a federal background check. In my experience in Texas, most gun show vendors are FFL's, so purchasers have to complete a 4473. However, I do see a few tables set up by private sellers. I bought a rifle from a guy like that a couple of years ago and couldn't tell the difference between him and a regular FFL, until I got ready to fill out the 4473 and he said, "don't need it." To the extent there is a "gun show loophole," this would be it.

Shadow 7D
April 12, 2013, 03:58 PM
Didn't the Washington Post give Obama 3 Pinocchios for using these numbers, upped from 2 because the administration has admitted that the study is bogus and yet still continues to use it's numbers as 'relevant and right'

Kiln
April 12, 2013, 04:00 PM
Basically democrats don't understand that FFL dealers can't sell to people without background checks. They honestly think that gun shows are a giant building filled with unlawful sales by FFL dealers where nobody has to go through an NCIS check.

The truth of it is that the only gun show loophole is the private sales loophole that they've been trying to close for years. FFL dealers are required to run checks on anybody just like if they were selling out of their own store.

PabloJ
April 12, 2013, 04:05 PM
Basically democrats don't understand that FFL dealers can't sell to people without background checks. They honestly think that gun shows are a giant building filled with unlawful sales by FFL dealers where nobody has to go through an NCIS check.

The truth of it is that the only gun show loophole is the private sales loophole that they've been trying to close for years. FFL dealers are required to run checks on anybody just like if they were selling out of their own store.
I would not worry. The 'loophole' will be closed in not so distant future.

Zeke/PA
April 12, 2013, 04:10 PM
I question internet sales accusation.
How are the guns being shipped from buyer to purchaser?
USPS ,UPS and others DO abide by the rules meaning between LICENSED Dealers ONLY!
Now! If I find out on line that a Guy down the road has something for sale and I drive down the road to buy it, A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME occurs.
BUT we cannot cap ALL internet firearms sales accordingly.
Politicians cannot see this far however and have a tendency to lump EVERYTHING!

PabloJ
April 12, 2013, 04:14 PM
I question internet sales accusation.
How are the guns being shipped from buyer to purchaser?
USPS ,UPS and others DO abide by the rules meaning between LICENSED Dealers ONLY!
Now! If I find out on line that a Guy down the road has something for sale and I drive down the road to buy it, A WHOLE NEW BALL GAME occurs.
BUT we cannot cap ALL internet firearms sales accordingly.
Politicians cannot see this far however and have a tendency to lump EVERYTHING!
Soon the "whole new ball game" will be illegal w/o FFL transfer.

X-Rap
April 12, 2013, 04:40 PM
Sure there is a loophole if that's what you want to call it. From my perspective I much favored the hobiest/collector type gunshows of the past than the modern dealer expos of today. There used to be some fine deals to be had but lately it seems that there is a quest to out price retail. In CO we have had the loophole closed for years and now with recent leglislation causing additional charges to background checks we probably will see $20 checks.

tarakian
April 12, 2013, 05:53 PM
The "Gun Show Loophole" is rhetoric designed to fool the uneducated masses into thinking that gun shows are like giant arms bazaars where terrorists, and criminals, and evil ninjas, and the Joker's henchmen all line up to buy cases of high tech weapons and explosives from a big pile in the middle of the room. It is along the same lines as the "Assault Weapons" the masses are supposed to be afraid of. Talk to the non-learned and they will tell you all about the machine guns we all have and how some friend of a guy they know can fire 700 rounds a minute from his AR and how it blows peoples arms and legs clean off. Unfortunately, there are too many sheep in this country (including politicians and other public figures) who get their entire body of firearms knowledge from the movies, TV, video games and the rest of the flock. I have actually had conversations with several people who were all about needing a new assault weapons ban until I explained to them what an AR style rifle really was and that it had no auto capabilities and wasn't particularly high powered. The confused look on their face when they realized they had been lied to by King Pinocchio and his court of fools was priceless.

wild cat mccane
April 12, 2013, 05:59 PM
Getting annoyed by the terminology doesn't debase the argument. All polls are showing 90%+ of Americans support closing face to face sells without a background check.

I completely agree with closing this loophole. And so did the NRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAk4bi3tOs8

I personally know your argument is wrong, because I have sold many guns without a background check.

Same goes for clips vs mag. That lexicon really doesn't matter to the material of the conversation.

*NOVA*
April 12, 2013, 06:08 PM
Basically democrats don't understand that FFL dealers can't sell to people without background checks. ...

PLEASE do not put all Democrats in the group that does not understand - such generalizations show your ignorance. Pro gun, pro 2nd Amendment, Gun -owning & Gun LOVING Democrats exist - I should know, I AM ONE!:cool:

mikeasb
April 12, 2013, 06:22 PM
Listen carefully to what the anti's say when they talk about internet sales. Quite often the say "guns and ammo" in the same context. I think that most of them who have any clue what it takes to buy a gun online understand that the vast majority of transactions go through FFL's. It the warehouse to doorstep purchase of ammo that they are after. Many folks, myself included purchase ammo in large lots when on sale online and have it shipped right to my door. This is what they would like to stop with the "internet sales of guns and ammo" loophole.

wild cat mccane
April 12, 2013, 06:30 PM
Rural/Urban living tends to correlate higher to opinions on guns than democrat/republican.

P5 Guy
April 12, 2013, 07:34 PM
Loopholes are things that the government hasn't moved to regulate or made illegal.

k_dawg
April 12, 2013, 09:05 PM
A "loophole" is when anyone does something absolutely legal, which someone else objects to and wants to make illega.

Kiln
April 12, 2013, 09:51 PM
PLEASE do not put all Democrats in the group that does not understand - such generalizations show your ignorance. Pro gun, pro 2nd Amendment, Gun -owning & Gun LOVING Democrats exist - I should know, I AM ONE!:cool:
Let me rephrase then, politicians who happen to align themselves with the democrat party.

It is a fair statement to say that politicians who are democrats favor gun control measures but it isn't fair to say that all democrats favor gun control.

ApacheCoTodd
April 12, 2013, 11:48 PM
A red herring, er, um - gun show loophole is a figurative expression referring to a logical fallacy in which a clue or piece of information is or is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual question.

Shadow 7D
April 13, 2013, 12:00 AM
Let me rephrase then, politicians who happen to align themselves with the democrat party.

It is a fair statement to say that politicians who are democrats favor gun control measures but it isn't fair to say that all democrats favor gun control.
Kinda, but nova also nailed it, do you think that Pelosi, who is a gun owner her self DOES NOT understand what she is proposing, and how it works
Yes they have their useful idiots, but they also have their policy wonks who understand the presentation of the 'reasonable change' and EXACTLY what it will do (ie. screw us over)

If you enjoyed reading about "What is the gun show loophole?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!