30-30 ballistics/SD question


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g_one
April 12, 2013, 02:29 PM
Let me start off by saying that I do not intend on using 30-30 for self defense, nor do I even keep my Marlin 30-30 loaded in my home. I have handguns for that. I'm asking strictly for the sake of curiosity, should some crazy circumstance ever arrive that I've got a BG on the other end of the barrel.

So, having said that - if I were to use a 30-30 at relatively close range (less than 25 yards) against a BG, would the result be as deadly as I assume it would be, or would the bullet end up just punching right through him and leave two .30" holes, with a charging attacker still headed my way?

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Creature
April 12, 2013, 02:37 PM
If its good for deer, it'll work on a human. Any of the 30-30 hunting loads (125gr-150gr-170gr expanding bullets) will put a stop to any gun fight quickly. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 30-30 for HD.

Jsg81
April 12, 2013, 02:39 PM
My best guess would be that it would depend on what bullet was used and where the shot was placed.

Hitting a bone, especially a thick bone (think pelvis) would deform a RN bullet to some extent and would increase the diameter of the exit wound.

Even if no bone was hit I don't think most people would keep coming but then again I have never shoot anyone thankfully. If I did have to I wouldn't hesitate to grab my 30-30 and use a normal hunting load. I still keep my shotgun handy around the house to reduce over penetration.

adelbridge
April 12, 2013, 02:56 PM
If i could choose a weapon to defend my home I would pick a .30-30 over any traditional handgun. I have seen what a .30-30 does to 200 lb land mammals and I can assure you it will blow through an attacker at close range. Over penetration would be the only drawback.

X-Rap
April 12, 2013, 03:05 PM
Aside from what I load for my Contender almost all my 30-30 get loaded with 110gr hollow points. They are very accurate and if a 115gr from a 9mm is an adeqate defense round in a pistol I can't imagine how well a similar bullet would be at well over 2000 FPS. There is little doubt that a heavier hunting bullet would give full penetration at SD ranges, my only worry would be what was behing my target.

jmr40
April 12, 2013, 03:25 PM
It'll work fine, but overpenetration with standard hunting loads will be a serious concern. If I felt there was even a remote possibility of using my 30-30 I'd get some lighter 125 gr or lighter bullets designed for varmits to keep around for this use.

Deer_Freak
April 12, 2013, 03:44 PM
If one lives in a rural area the 30/30 is a fine weapon for self defense. It has enough power to bust car windshields and doors. Most lever action rifles have enough capacity to stop a home invasion. Sadly, home invasions are happening more often to the elderly in rural areas.

shafter
April 12, 2013, 03:52 PM
That 30-30 would be quite devastating. A center mass shot would knock him flat no doubt...maybe not send him flying across the room (only a 12ga or 45 does that) but quite dead in any case.

Creature
April 12, 2013, 03:56 PM
maybe not send him flying across the room (only a 12ga or 45 does that)

They do? Wow!

bigfatdave
April 12, 2013, 04:01 PM
(only a 12ga or 45 does that)

not
sure
if
joking

Creature
April 12, 2013, 04:03 PM
...me too.

HoosierQ
April 12, 2013, 04:09 PM
Considering the power of the .357 for HD is essentially never disputed, the much more powerful 30-30 pretty much has a lock on getting the job done. As would 5.56 x 45, 7.62 x anything. 30 carbine would do very well too...very well.

HD is about accessibility of the firearm when needed, placement of the shot under duress, control of the bullet vis-a-vis your family and neighbors, and only then power. With a 30-30, you got the power thing nailed right out of the gate.

matrem
April 12, 2013, 04:31 PM
I'd much rather have a .30/30 to stop anything with two or four legs than any handgun at least through .44 mag.

.30/30 is a great HD choice.
If overpenetration concerns you, go with the lightest (125 ish) bullets you find.

nathan
April 12, 2013, 04:33 PM
It will be a big hole , thats for sure. Just like being hit by an AK 47 round x 2 . Most .30 30s use the 170 gr vs the 123 gr of the AK SKS round.

wgaynor
April 12, 2013, 04:35 PM
My .44 is my bedside gun, my .30-.30 is my closet gun for defense. I load it with 170 grain flat nose air cooled bullet pushed to around 1800fps.

Works well on critters and targets, plus provides easy maneuverability in the hallway.

mnhntr
April 12, 2013, 04:38 PM
I have personally seen a person shot in the thigh at less than 20ft with a 30-30. It left a mess of the leg. There was extensive tissue and bone damge. The bullet passed through a glass sliding door prior to hitting the criminal. We were called out (I am a Paramedic) for a gunshot wound and upon arriving on the scene we found that an inmate was taken to a Dr appoinment during which he assualted the escorting CO and escaped with his gun. He ran through the neighborhood and tried to get into a house which just happened to be occupied by a quick thinking elderly man with a 30-30 winchester. Seeing this inmate in an orange jumpsuit holding a gun trying to get into his house he shot through the glass door and hit the inmate in the thigh causing him to loose all will to fight. He was held until police arrived who cleared us to come in and treat the inmate and transport him.

Averageman
April 12, 2013, 06:23 PM
I have personally seen a person shot in the thigh at less than 20ft with a 30-30. It left a mess of the leg. There was extensive tissue and bone damge. The bullet passed through a glass sliding door prior to hitting the criminal. We were called out (I am a Paramedic) for a gunshot wound and upon arriving on the scene we found that an inmate was taken to a Dr appoinment during which he assualted the escorting CO and escaped with his gun. He ran through the neighborhood and tried to get into a house which just happened to be occupied by a quick thinking elderly man with a 30-30 winchester. Seeing this inmate in an orange jumpsuit holding a gun trying to get into his house he shot through the glass door and hit the inmate in the thigh causing him to loose all will to fight. He was held until police arrived who cleared us to come in and treat the inmate and transport him.

Did the crimminal Shout out "That's some nighty bold talk for a One Eyed Fat Man !"...J/K
I built this for my brother, who finally got a couple more rifles and gave the 30-30 Marlin SC to my Mom.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r263/Averageman1/336SC002-1.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/Averageman1/media/336SC002-1.jpg.html)
So I guess we trust enough to give it to our Sainted Mother, so the answer would be Yes!

Texan Scott
April 12, 2013, 08:07 PM
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/image4951.jpg

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/image4951.jpg

Imagine the inside of a chest cavity after this.

jeepnik
April 12, 2013, 08:08 PM
Shessh, people kill bears with the old antiquated 30-30, even though there are those that will tell you it won't even kill a deer anymore.

Any good quality soft point is going to work superbly as an anti-personnel round.

But, just incase you aren't sure it will be sufficient, I suggest you get a 45-70 and feed it some of Buffalo Bores 45-70 Magnum ammo. Try the one that's got about 3600 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. That should work for your average 100 lb junkie breaking in to steal stuff to get a fix.

g_one
April 12, 2013, 09:34 PM
Well damn, you guys almost have me wanting to get one of those Magnum Research 30-30 revolvers to go along with my Marlin...

rondog
April 12, 2013, 09:54 PM
Shoot it indoors, and your hearing will never be the same! Most any gun indoors will deafen you, but a .30 cal bottlenecked rifle round? Gives me the willies.

rodregier
April 12, 2013, 10:45 PM
I've read "back in the day" that rural deputies would often be armed with .30-30 rifles as their duty long gun. If it was seriously lacking they would have been using something else. Homo sapiens are similar in construction in the thoracic cavity to medium-sized whitetail deer. .30-30 rifles have been successfully used to take a lot of whitetail deer over the years. Read between the lines. Picking a loading with a 150g or a bit lighter projectile would be my suggestion.

BTW, if you're contemplating using a centrefire rifle indoors, having active hearing protection handy to the rifle would be a good idea.

something like the 3M Peltor SV Tactical Pro Hearing Protector or similar...

X-Rap
April 12, 2013, 10:47 PM
Shoot it indoors, and your hearing will never be the same! Most any gun indoors will deafen you, but a .30 cal bottlenecked rifle round? Gives me the willies.
__________________

I wonder if the guy in post 16 cares or wishes he would have went for his 22 instead?

General Geoff
April 12, 2013, 10:56 PM
Shoot it indoors, and your hearing will never be the same! Most any gun indoors will deafen you, but a .30 cal bottlenecked rifle round? Gives me the willies.
.30-30 out of a rifle is quieter than most rounds out of a pistol. (http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml)

Brass Fetcher
April 12, 2013, 10:58 PM
Thank you for posting the link to the picture. That particular bullet was still doing 690 ft/sec as it exited the back of the gelatin block ...

The firearm used there was a Pre-64 Winchester 94. Distance from muzzle to gelatin block was 10ft.

All expanding bullets expand within 3 diameters, so the 30-30 should expand at or before 0.9" penetration depth. Whether "bad guy" or gelatin is target medium, doesn't matter in this case.

303tom
April 12, 2013, 11:45 PM
Damn right the .30-30 Win. will blow a hole in ya at close range..............
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f18/30-30-sd-round-70080/index5.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEPm7M3ik8

AJumbo
April 13, 2013, 02:14 AM
I'd rather respond to a threat with almost any long gun- even a .22- than almost any pistol. Under stress, I know I'll be more apt to make hits with a rifle, shotgun or carbine than with a handgun. Given that the 30-30 round falls somewhere in the power spectrum between what is used in AK-47s and M14s, I don't see a power problem.


My grand-dad's old M94 has a full magazine even as I write this. It's not a "first line" SD choice, but it's in line WAY before my 1911.

Roadkill
April 14, 2013, 10:06 PM
I tried out my second run of 20 30-30 220g loads for my 1960s Winchester 94 today. Using 24g of WC844 I was getting very good five round groups at 50 yds. I'm loading these only for HD/camper/kayaking. Its a long bullet and to get it to feed easily 2/3 of it is in the case. Recoil was surprisingly mild. No signs of over pressure. Again, accuracy was very good a 50 yds and for intended use I'll never shoot beyond that.

DM~
April 15, 2013, 06:57 PM
First of all, i agree that i'd rather have a properly loaded 30-30 in my hands than any handgun from 44 mag. on down, to stop anything from a bear on down, at close range.

To those of you thinking that you need a light bullet in a 30-30: You do realize that the closer the target is to the muzzle the FASTER the bullet is at impact. AND the faster a bullet is at impact, the FASTER it expands!

SO, any 30-30 hitting a man at close range with any of the factory ammo, is going to do a lot of damage! More than 99% of ANY of the handguns talked about on this site.

DM

X-Rap
April 15, 2013, 07:27 PM
To those of you thinking that you need a light bullet in a 30-30: You do realize that the closer the target is to the muzzle the FASTER the bullet is at impact. AND the faster a bullet is at impact, the FASTER it expands!


Isn't that what is desireable?

shafter
April 15, 2013, 07:36 PM
Quote:
(only a 12ga or 45 does that)

not
sure
if
joking
_________________

Totally joking!

dprice3844444
April 15, 2013, 07:47 PM
no matter what you hit them with,it's gonna hurt

maxyedor
April 15, 2013, 09:53 PM
30-30 mite not be intimidating compared to some of the larger .30 cal rifles, but 1900ish foot pounds of energy (for a 150gr bullet) is no joke! It suffers at longer ranges, but in a home defense situation, what's the longest shot you're likely to need to take?

.44 Mag in a +P+ load will barely break the 1500 foot pound mark, so it's still quite a bit shy of 30-30's muzzle energy. Nobody would question using an AR15 as a HD weapon, and that's about 1300 foot pounds, pretty weak when compared to 30-30.

The downside is over penetration. It's probably going through your target, as are more rifle rounds. I think you could do OK with some of the higher end expanding hunting bullets, they would likely still pass through the thin chunk of flesh that is a human torso, but they would lose a ton of energy in the process.

My XD9 lives in my nightstand, as I'm very comfortable using 9mm +Ps to defend myself, but my 30-30 Marlin is never far away, especially out in the boonies. Never shot a rifle that points like my Marlin, inside of 100 feet I can almost shoot with my eyes closed, and 150 grains of lead is a pretty convincing argument that you ought to stop doing whatever you're up to.

icanthitabarn
April 15, 2013, 10:08 PM
I have a few MB 165grainers loaded to maybe 1400fps with some Trailboss. Not too loud at all.

razorback2003
April 15, 2013, 10:10 PM
lever action rifles point well like fine shotguns. 30-30 works well on deer and some of the old time police kept them in cars or to guard prisoners.

oldpapps
April 16, 2013, 01:14 AM
"if I were to use a 30-30 at relatively close range (less than 25 yards) against a BG, would the result be as deadly as I assume it would be"....

The analysis:

Put one or more 30-30s in/through a deer that is pumped up on fear induced adrenalin and he/she can run a long way.

Put one or more 30-30s in/through an aggressor that is pumped up on drugs and you will want to run a long way.

A general comparison between the 30-30 and the .44 Mag at close ranges are very comparable. Yet the .44 mag is the big daddy of pistols.

IMHO, the 30-30 is more potent than the .44 Mag, better at longer ranges, generally hold more rounds, is not as handy in close quarters.

As stated above in other posts, lighter, more frangible bullets that expand/exploded should limit over penetration. The old 30-30 ain't nut'in to sneeze at.

Close quarters and I follow the old black powder view, 'bigger is better'. Bigger diameter bullet over little skinny ones. Bigger heavier ones over lighter ones. Bigger charges of black powder over lighter ones.
Converting this to smokeless powder. Bigger diameter bullets don't require velocity to expand, make a bigger wound path. For these purposes, penetration is not a big plus, so bigger heavier is not a plus. Smokeless powder isn't measured just by bulk.

A light, expanding bullet that will give up all of it's energies quickly is preferred. For a deer or other game, penetration comes in to play. For a 110 to 220 pound aggressor, expending all energy as soon as possible is a better option. (Pound a bunch of energy into a vest and the guy behind it will know it.)

I spend a bunch of years as a cop worrying with this subject. Oh, for the record, I like my .45 ACPs and 308s and with double and triple taps, the .223s will do.

ECVMatt
April 16, 2013, 01:35 AM
I think the 125's are just about perfect for an SD situation. A while back I used to converse with a fellow who was a rural deputy. He carried a Marlin with federal 125's and actually shot a BG with them at about 50 yards. He stated that it was pretty much game over immediately. He said they were trading rounds and then he hit him in the upper chest and that was it. He also shot many wounded deer and larger farm animals with similar results. He did state that he had to change out the rounds every month our so because the lead tips would become deformed. I have a few .30-30's and think they are first rate for HD/camping protection.

foghornl
April 16, 2013, 09:44 AM
Hmmmm...

Anyone done a gel test with a .30-30 "Cowboy" round? I know that bullet isn't moving very fast, but I am NOT willing to be the "Crash Test Dummy" on the receiving end.

DM~
April 16, 2013, 10:15 PM
Isn't that what is desireable?
Yes, and that was my point.

You don't need some spl. load with a light bullet, the tried and true factory 150's will easily get the job done!

DM

oldpapps
April 17, 2013, 12:47 AM
"Anyone done a gel test with a .30-30 "Cowboy" round?"

I don't know the actual specs on your 'Cowboy round'. But, I would suspect that the on target energies are going to be greater (by far) than most any hot shot pistols. And just how many round does your lever action hold? Your good for way more than a pistol round's range. The only down side is the actual diameter of the bullet. Big whoop.

DeadFlies
April 17, 2013, 12:33 PM
Interesting.

I have considered using my M94 for HD duty. I have handloaded some 125 grain Sierra JHPFN bullets with 30 grains of H4895. It's not as powerful as a factory round but still explodes water jugs with much more authority than my 9mm. I imagine the effect on a human being would be much more profound also.

It is a rifle though, which means two hands. Doesn't leave much room for a light or a cell phone.

Arkansas Paul
April 17, 2013, 12:44 PM
if I were to use a 30-30 at relatively close range (less than 25 yards) against a BG, would the result be as deadly as I assume it would be, or would the bullet end up just punching right through him and leave two .30" holes, with a charging attacker still headed my way?

Bullets for .30-30s are designed for expanding at the relatively low velocities the round produces. I would say that it would be a very devestating considering the close range you mentioned and that it will be at almost muzzle velocity at impact.

You can even get a tacti-cool version from Mossberg. :)

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