my next bolt action: 30-06?


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jason41987
April 14, 2013, 03:54 AM
well, ive been wanting to get a new bolt action for a while now, been focusing on other types of firearms, and really only have a mosin nagant at this point, but i want a good bolt action, i mean, one capable of long range target practice.. as most mosins were made cheap and for a war effort, their accuracy isnt all that great, limited options for .311 bullets, etc

so i think i decided i want a .30-06, ive considered .308, 6.5 creedmor, .300 winchester magnum, and a couple other 30 caliber magnums.. decided to skip the magnums because of ammo and reloading component availability, the cost is just too high for regular practice and target shooting

ive come to really like the 208 grain hornady a-max bullet in .308... i could be wrong, but this should work well in a 30-06, i dont think theyd work well in a .308, and the -06 has a bit more powder to push it along, and the .30-06 is common enough to find less expensive ammo and an abundance of reloading supplies

so does any of this logic seem flawed? would you recommend something besides the .30-06 for a roughly 1000 yard rifle (target shooting, not hunting of course) and which rifles would you recommend? ive been looking at ruger M77s which seem very mauser-like, as well as the savage rifles, but i hear sako and tika are pretty nice too

i was going to use the money i had save on a new semi automatic.. something more modern, but decided id rather take this money to improve my AK-74, get a new long range bolt action, and then focus my efforts on collecting old military rifles

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firesky101
April 14, 2013, 04:36 AM
I know you are concerned about component availability, but once you have the brass any of the .30 cals are in the same boat (seeing as you are not concerned about '06). The .300wsm will push that 208gr along much better than the '06. Sure the ol' springfield can do it, but 200gr really starts to stretch the limits of what that cartridge can effectively put downrange w/velocity (much like 180's in a .308).

Art Eatman
April 14, 2013, 10:12 AM
There was a thread here a few years back with some posts by a couple of guys who were using '06s with 30" barrels and Berger VLD bullets (230-grain, IIRC) and getting MOA or better at 1,200 to 1,300 yards.

I've never shot beyond 500 yards, but my Weatherby Mark V in '06 with a 26" barrel easily shot into one MOA or a tad better. I used Sierra bullets of 150, 165 and 180 grain weight.

chaser_2332
April 14, 2013, 10:40 AM
imho the 06' doesnt offer enough advantage over a 308 for targets at 1000yds to justify a long action and more powder vs the short you would run on a 308. A 308 shooting 175's has no problems at 1000yds

j2crows
April 14, 2013, 10:51 AM
I always wanted a 30.06...Until I got one! Sorry , I found no mystic in the '06.

jason41987
April 14, 2013, 12:48 PM
another reason for me to go .30-06 is that i do intend on getting a garand, maybe even before this, and at some point a 1903 springfield, and i just cant imagine collecting either of these in any other caliber... but firesky is right, you can make a huge number of other cartridges based on 30-06 brass

adelbridge
April 14, 2013, 01:04 PM
If you are reloading looking at .260 Remington

Inebriated
April 14, 2013, 01:14 PM
I'm biased towards .30-06, so naturally I'll say do it.

But also, if you're not taking game, don't overlook .243, .260, 6.5, etc. The 6mm-6.5mm cartridges give you high BC bullet options, less recoil, flatter trajectory than the .30-06, and if you're reloading, they're not much to reload. Especially .243. For rifles, Savage and Remington dominate the aftermarket, so if you're going to be building a target rifle, you'll probably have the greatest ease with either of them. Savages tend to be sub-MOA out-of-box, and are generally going to cost less to get to the same level as accuracy in a Remington. Also, be ready to spend quite a bit on a scope. 1000 yards is going to be awfully frustrating looking through a lower-end scope at 50x.

jason41987
April 14, 2013, 01:25 PM
what attracts me to the .30-06 though is the availability, if there was a magnum cartridge just as available, i may go for it, but .30-06 is everywhere, i can still be convinced otherwise if anyone knows of any widely available magnum cartridges? 300 winchester magnum is all i can think of being relatively common

if i was convinced to go with a cartridge that was less available, and stock ammo on it, then id be wanting something incredibly long-range, like a 338 lapua.. but inedbriated is right.. i still need a good scope

Kachok
April 14, 2013, 01:29 PM
Since you want to shoot considerable range I would opt for the 6.5 Creedmore, it is the only one on your list designed specifically for that task. Ammo is less expensive then I would have though by a considerable margin, and you can shoot it quite a bit if you want, the mid ranged 6.5mms have next to nothing recoil.
308 lacks the case volume for my heavier bullets it would not make my A-list for long range shooting, 30-06 has that little extra case volume allowing me to use 200+gr bullets, but load data is slim for match bullets, Hornady does not even publish 06 data for their 208gr A-Max, I wrote them a nasty letter over that. While I love my 06 it will do nothing to paper at long range that my 6.5mm does not do better and with less recoil.

mtrmn
April 14, 2013, 01:48 PM
Townsend Whelen: "The 30-06 is never a mistake."

Haxby
April 14, 2013, 02:22 PM
Nothing wrong with the '06. For the 208 gr amax, you might want to pick one with a 1/10 twist.
If you want a factory 30-06 with a long, heavy barrel, for shooting targets at long range, I don't know if there is one.

jason41987
April 14, 2013, 02:34 PM
well, i have been getting into my own gunsmithing, currently building my second AK for example, have done some work on some of the other bolt actions i had.. maybe buying an action and customizing the rifle myself would suit me best for those longer bullets?

should i go this route, could anyone suggest an action i should consider building upon?... i can get a 1903 springfield barreled action for about $200 i could rebarrel and rebuild, maybe hand-carve a new military style stock for it so itll look WWII.. i used to build guitars, so carving stocks requires the tools and skills i already have.. old mauser actions dont cost much either

any new actions i should look at? if i went with a new action id be interested in one of the solid-top actions with a rail for scope rings

chaser_2332
April 14, 2013, 02:47 PM
well, i have been getting into my own gunsmithing, currently building my second AK for example, have done some work on some of the other bolt actions i had.. maybe buying an action and customizing the rifle myself would suit me best for those longer bullets?

should i go this route, could anyone suggest an action i should consider building upon?... i can get a 1903 springfield barreled action for about $200 i could rebarrel and rebuild, maybe hand-carve a new military style stock for it so itll look WWII.. i used to build guitars, so carving stocks requires the tools and skills i already have.. old mauser actions dont cost much either

any new actions i should look at? if i went with a new action id be interested in one of the solid-top actions with a rail for scope rings
defiance

Gtscotty
April 14, 2013, 03:26 PM
Well if you went with a savage action, you could easily pick up an '06 barrel built to pretty much any spec you want and thread it on yourself. You would also have many different stock options. Have you looked at 30-06AI? I think a normal '06 will probably do what you want, but Nosler's reloading guide sure does show some impressive loads for the AI. If push came to shove you could still fire normal 30-06 from the AI.

I'd also second Kachok on the 6.5 Creedmoor as an excellent option for you, very precise factory loads are available if you don't reload.

jason41987
April 14, 2013, 03:29 PM
ive never heard of .30-06AI, ill have to look that up

mnhntr
April 14, 2013, 03:31 PM
imho the 06' doesnt offer enough advantage over a 308 for targets at 1000yds to justify a long action and more powder vs the short you would run on a 308. A 308 shooting 175's has no problems at 1000yds
This is my response also

publiuss
April 14, 2013, 03:39 PM
You can NEVER go wrong with an '06.

jason41987
April 14, 2013, 05:24 PM
is a 1903 springfield action strong enough for full powered modern loads or does it have to be down-loaded?.. i think building one on a 1903 action, and replicating a military stock for it could be kinda cool, but if the action cant handle it then ill probably go for a savage, or a ruger M77

Art Eatman
April 14, 2013, 05:59 PM
The 03 action is the "weakest" among most modern bolt action designs. It's not "bad weak", of course, but I wouldn't load to the max pressures of most other actions.

My limited understanding is that the firing pin is the weak link. Rare, for sure, but they can blow out to the rear.

Reloadron
April 14, 2013, 06:12 PM
ive never heard of .30-06AI, ill have to look that up
The 30-06 AI (Ackley Improved) is one of these (http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w3006imp.html).

The Ackley Improved family of wildcat cartridges are designed to be easily made by rechambering existing firearms, and fireforming the ammunition to decrease body taper and increase shoulder angle, resulting in a higher case capacity. Ackley improved not only standard cartridges, but also other popular wildcats, and was the first to create a .17 caliber (4.5 mm) centerfire cartridge.

Read a little about P.O. Ackley here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.O._Ackley)

I also agree with Art in that the 03 Springfield, while a good rifle would not be a very good candidate. There are a large number of Mauser type actions that were sporterized and converted to 30-06 which may be a better choice if you take that route.

Ron

dirtykid
April 14, 2013, 06:13 PM
Like Jason, I think along the same lines, Although I lack the gunsmithing ability to build my own tricked out 06' , so I ordered one built like this one shown on this sites page,

http://www.redhawkrifles.com/

Its just like their "Alaskan fluted" , only with same stock, 1:9 twist 26" barrel with a BDL-style mag (I hate carrying clips) with a Nightforce 5.5x20-56 , 20MOA base

I figure I should be hitting 1000-yds easy

PedalBiker
April 14, 2013, 06:14 PM
I have a Ruger in 30-06. It's not what I'd get for long range target shooting. It's an awesome hunting rifle, it's very rugged, but it's not my most accurate rifle.

I have a Savage that's a long action 110, but milled out for short action and chambered 243. It's super accurate and fun to shoot because it's pretty heavy. I even bought a 260 barrel for it and cut it down to 19" for deer hunting. The aftermarket 260barrel was a cheap one, so it's not a tack driver. But it's fine for deer.

If I was getting a rifle for long range targets I'd get one in 260 Rem or Creedmore, otherwise look at a fast twist 243 Win. If you shoot 105g A max 6mm bullets you're good for at least 1000 yards.

Welding Rod
April 14, 2013, 07:14 PM
You may want to look at a new Model 70.

I have one in 30-06, a Sporter, and shot it in a hi-power type match today for bolt guns. It did real well. The trigger break is totally crisp and clean even though it takes a fair pull force.

The barrel is perfectly floated and the POI didn't change during rapid fire strings. The action is quite smooth, and The magazine is easy to load quickly during rapid fire.

I was just shooting my standard Garand loads in it (Hornady 150 FMJ & H4895, canelured & crimped), and the gun would easily hold the 10 ring, and I am almost sure it will hold the X ring - I have not bagged the gun so I can't say for sure.

To top it off, it is in a beautiful piece of walnut.

Jcinnb
April 14, 2013, 09:30 PM
Curious why no one mentioned 25-06. Too much range for it to handle?

I just got one, but not for 1,000 yds. Just curious.

Reloadron
April 14, 2013, 09:37 PM
Curious why no one mentioned 25-06. Too much range for it to handle?

I just got one, but not for 1,000 yds. Just curious.
While I can't speak for the others I focused on 30-06 because that is what the original poster started the thread with.

so i think i decided i want a .30-06, ive considered .308, 6.5 creedmor, .300 winchester magnum, and a couple other 30 caliber magnums.. decided to skip the magnums because of ammo and reloading component availability, the cost is just too high for regular practice and target shooting

There is no shortage of other good choices. I also saw no mention of budget constraints or what the OP is looking to spend? Beats me? :)

Ron

vonrichthofen
April 14, 2013, 09:46 PM
Like adelbridge and inebriated, I suggest for your dining and dancing pleasure the .260 Rem (if you plan on reloading). A lovely cartridge in the 243-308 family. What a pleasure to shoot. I got one about a year ago in a used Sako AV, which had been rebarrelled in .260 (about 25 years old). You can shoot this rifle all day long wearing a tee shirt. If you want to shoot any of the high ballistic coefficient bullets (like the Sierra Match Kings or the Lapua Scenars) you will need a barrel twist of 1 in 8" or perhaps 1 in 8-1/2". With the high BC bullets, the .260 will out shoot even the .300 Win. magnum, and is a hell of a lot more forgiving on your shoulder.

Read a bit about the .260 rem. vonrichthofen

jason41987
April 14, 2013, 10:17 PM
i havent set a budget constraint for myself yet, still looking at whats available to determine how far i want to go with it

id like something i can find an aftermarket stock for that offers an adjustable length of pull and cheek rest, such as the tactical stock made by bell and carlson, unfortunately those are only for remington 700s, or like what the CZ 750 has

so what id like is something with a nice, adjustable, free floated stock available like those mentioned above, and the ability to accept different size box magazines, such as a 5 and 10 rounder

Reloadron
April 15, 2013, 04:57 AM
i havent set a budget constraint for myself yet, still looking at whats available to determine how far i want to go with it

id like something i can find an aftermarket stock for that offers an adjustable length of pull and cheek rest, such as the tactical stock made by bell and carlson, unfortunately those are only for remington 700s, or like what the CZ 750 has

so what id like is something with a nice, adjustable, free floated stock available like those mentioned above, and the ability to accept different size box magazines, such as a 5 and 10 rounder
Then I might think about dropping the 30-06 for a cartridge based on the 308 Winchester like the 260 Remington (or any of the others). I would get a used older 700 series Remington leaving you open for your stock options. Follow up with a trigger guard that takes a detachable magazine like this one (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/528435/ptg-trigger-guard-for-aics-detachable-box-magazine-remington-700-short-action-aluminum-black) or similar as there are plenty out there that allow using 5 and 10 round detachable magazines like these (http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/rem-700-detachable-magazine-prod41006.aspx).

The 308 parent cartridge allows a good choice of sub calibers and the use of a short action making the use of the detachable magazines practical. That would be my guess anyway.

A build like this also opens the door for some nice trigger possibilities.

Ron

jason41987
April 15, 2013, 03:07 PM
does anyone know of any actions available to purchase for a custom build?.. i notice some custom actions are also designed to match the remington 700 footprint for stock compatibility

jason41987
April 15, 2013, 03:41 PM
what do you guys think of this idea?... what if i take a CZ550 or winchester model 70 (both look very similar to the mauser and 1903 actions).. and i carve for it a replica of a 1903 or k98 mauser stock with the difference of being free-floated and make myself a WWII era style bolt action with modern strength and accuracy?

Reloadron
April 15, 2013, 04:49 PM
What do you actually want to build? Do you still want a 30-06 or another cartridge? Looking at your first and last post you are starting to get all over the map.

A month or two ago I sent a member (I think he was in Tenn.) a rough cut large block of walnut that was rough cut for a Remington 700 action. He will finish it however he chooses.

You can make anything you want but I believe you will need a good rifle smith to build it for you to your specifications.

what do you guys think of this idea?... what if i take a CZ550 or winchester model 70 (both look very similar to the mauser and 1903 actions).. and i carve for it a replica of a 1903 or k98 mauser stock with the difference of being free-floated and make myself a WWII era style bolt action with modern strength and accuracy?

Personally? I would not do that but that being just me and my taste in what a good rifle should be. Take a good look at for example Mauser type actions that have been sporterized. The stocks look nothing like the originals and those who have done it build accuracy into the rifle with a variety of tricks.

What exactly do you want? If you want what you stated above get a good action of your choice and buy a block of walnut and start chipping away at it. There were recently several very good threads in the Gun Smithing section dealing with stocks and stock making. You may want to read them.

Ron

jason41987
April 15, 2013, 06:01 PM
ill probably just go with something like the cz 550 or winchester model 70 and buy an aftermarket stock.. i know mcmillan offers their tactical stocks for both these rifles which would be a great place to start... though ive been a bigger fan of CZ products than i am of winchester... in fact, im quite a large CZ fan, theyre probably in the top 3 of my favorite gun manufacturers.. CZ, sig, save, ruger are all brands i like (not including the kalashnikov family of rifles made from various manufacturers)

so i think the CZ-550, savage 110, or ruger M77, or a newly manufactured mauser action would be what id be most interested in i think.. what i mentioned above about an old military style stock was just a side thought.. id probably want to go with something more modern, like the A5, A4 type stock, or one of those available from choate, bell and carlson

as for whather or not i want to stick with 30-06, step it up to a magnum cartridge, or a short action is a tough decision, im not to sure which route i want to go here..

if i do go with a long action, i might as well step it up to something capable of some serious range and firepower.. and a short action offers me far more stock options, detachable box magazine, and i could put something together along the lines of a military M40A5 bolt action... so i think ill give up on 30-06

so to recap, heres the choices im looking at

CZ 550, Ruger M77, or Savage 110 action with the following options

option 1. magnum action, magnum cartridge, 300 winchester magnum minimum, but possibly something like a .300 RUM, 338 lapua

option 2. short action, .308-based cartridge (.308 itself, 6.5 creedmor, 260 remington, etc) with a detachable 10-round box magazine, with a larger variety of stocks and accessories

im leaning heavy on a savage 110 action, either .308 short action, .300 winchester magnum long action, or if at all possible i wouldnt mind having a .338 lapua to play around with, with either option i can get the choate "tactical rifle stock" or "ultimate sniper rifle stock", possibly a single-set trigger, and good optics

Gtscotty
April 15, 2013, 06:12 PM
Option 3. Short action Winchester in 300 WSM, perhaps something along the lines of the Coyote Lite or Extreme Weather. I'm just thinking out loud here. Also, have you looked at the Tikka super varmint or scout?

jason41987
April 15, 2013, 06:21 PM
i actually found a rifle i REALLY like.. the savage 111 long range hunter .338 lapua... 5-round detachable box magazine, adjustable cheek rest, .338 lapua cartridge, $1100

will the 111 action be compatible with 110 stocks?.. and does the 338 lapua cartridge deliver enough in the area of added range and power to justify the higher cost of brass for reloading vs the 300 magnum?

thing is, with the .308 cartridge, i can build a highly accurate semi-automatic based on an FAL, HK, or AR10 action capable of handling the range of the 308 cartridge.. so im thinking if im going to go with a bolt action, i might as well step it up to a magnum cartridge for the added range to take advantage of the added accuracy of a bolt action.. make sense?

which leads me to the question posted above, is the added power and range of the 338 lapua worth the extra cost in reloading components vs the 300 winchester magnum?

jason41987
April 16, 2013, 04:15 AM
i think im getting ahead of myself here.. i dont have the skill or accuracy at this point to be able to take advantage of what a lapua can do... it would be very counter-productive as the ammunition, even reloading components would be just too expensive for me to practice with enough to get good at hitting long range targets

so i need something thats going to be pretty cheap to shoot, but still capable of regular 1000-yard shooting... im going to look more into the 6.5 creedmor, but i think either the 308, 30-06, or 300 win mag would end up being my choice

jason41987
April 16, 2013, 07:19 AM
ive been doing more research on 6.5 creedmor vs .308 winchester, comparing the 123 grain a-max which has a ballistic coefficiency of .510, and the 140 grain which has a BC of .585... comparing to various 150-175 grain .308 bullets

what ive discovered is that out to 400-500 yards, the .308 does have a bit more power... BUT, the 6.5 creedmoor has plenty of power to drop any big target on this continent... and after this range, the 6.5 creedmoor takes over with a flatter trajectory, less drop.. and in the end does make a better long-range cartridge on paper.. reminds me of the 6.5x55mm cartridge which i really like, but the creedmoor brass is a bit expensive and im not sure its worth the added trouble vs the .308 at this point

and you guys were right earlier.. looking at some ballistics calculations i cant really see the .30-06 being worth the long action, its not enough of an improvement over the .308... and for that matter, .300 winchester magnum doesnt offer performance worth a long action over the .300 winchester short magnum...

so i think ill narrow myself to those two cartridges... .300 winchester short magnum or .308 winchester, and ill probably go with a savage rifle

firesky101
April 16, 2013, 01:48 PM
Fwiw creedmore brass can be formed from much less expensive brass (22-250 I am pretty sure)

Reloadron
April 16, 2013, 06:12 PM
so i think ill narrow myself to those two cartridges... .300 winchester short magnum or .308 winchester, and ill probably go with a savage rifle

Years ago, actually about 20 years ago I built myself a nice target rifle in 308 Winchester. I built it around a Remington 700 action.

The reason I went with the Remington action was because I was tooled up to work on that action. I had the action wrench, barrel vise, bolt lapping tools, action truing fixture and everything else to build on that action. I also had the 308 reamers and an eight gauge set of 308 head space gauges. The rifle, which I still have was never disappointing. That was then and this is now.

If I built the same rifle today I would likely run with the 300 WSM. I would have considered it 20 years ago but those guys at Winchester waited till around 2001 to develop the cartridge. I would still use a Remington action but that is only because all the tooling and gauges I had 20 years ago I still have. Tooling, fixturing and gauges tend to get a little expensive. If I had nothing I guess a Savage action would be in the running for consideration. Twenty years ago the Savage guns while good were also considered cheap and getting good custom parts like a trigger was not as easy as it is today.

Something I have never let get in the way of my decision making process is the cost of ammunition. While I do roll my own I do so in the interest of building custom loads for specific rifles that often do not save money, it does result in accuracy. Why invest considerable time and money in what should be a very accurate rifle and worry about what it will cost to shoot it? If I worried about ammunition cost for every rifle I have I would own a gun safe loaded with 22 rimfires.I am not saying that cost and availability should not be a consideration, I am saying those factors should not top the list in determining a caliber.

A good Savage rifle can be had for a reasonable cost. If I were you depending on what you want to spend I sure would consider it. Just make sure when you want to add things like a trigger (I know Savage makes a great trigger) that what you want is available. Maybe down the road you will want to add a barrel better than factory. Make sure that barrel is available and in a twist rate you want for your chosen bullets.

Then build it, shoot it and enjoy it. :)

Ron

jason41987
April 16, 2013, 06:48 PM
reloadron, im actually quite comfortable with the cost of .300 WSM brass though, i believe its about $70 for 100 cases which isnt bad at all... some of the less popular magnum cartridges are $50 for 20 so reloading is a lot more expensive... also with .300 WSM, 30 caliber bullets are incredibly common and inexpensive (all this applies to 300 winchester magnum if i was going with a long action)

so in the end, id actually be quite comfortable with the cost of the 300 short mag... and would this change to .300WSM allow me to practice on targets 1500 or so yards out?... id imagine id miss a lot, but id like to build on my skill-set, and challenge myself to further targets, and get so comfortable with a load that i get pretty good at predicting windage and elevation at a given range

my purpose for this rifle is recreation mostly, however i dont want to go with a benchrest... id like something that could still be taken outdoors and exposed to the environment which is why im looking to copy something along the lines of a military sniper rifle which seem to bring ruggedness and accuracy together

however.. i may also hunt with this.. and for hunting i rarely take shots over 100 yards... i could download the .300 wsm to .308 velocities, couldnt i?.. the hydrostatic shock of a 180 ripping through a deer at well over 2000fps would just be devastating to meat... but if im able to download it for hunting then it would be a perfect all around cartridge

dprice3844444
April 16, 2013, 06:55 PM
add a http://www.gentrycustom.com/ muzzle brake and a pachmeyer magnum decellerator pad on it,you could shoot all day.
http://www.snipercountry.com/inreviews/rem_m700_stainlessspecial5rmilspec.asp
http://www.snipercountrypx.com/pc-4996-836-scpx-700ss-5r-milspec-deployment-package-300-wm.aspx

jason41987
April 16, 2013, 07:45 PM
the .300 WSM is really starting to attract me.. but im going to keep checking out other brands, maybe check out some video reviews and see what i like, ive heard great things about sakos and tikkas too... so long as i can get the kind of stock i want and the aftermarket trigger i want, then the option for other brands are open

feel free to give me a list of your top-ten bolt action brands in order of what you think are the best, and ill give them a look

Reloadron
April 16, 2013, 08:02 PM
Can the 300 WSM be downloaded for hunting to around the 308 Winchester velocities? Close but not a deal breaker. The 300 WSM was never designed to compete with the 308 Winchester, you know that. It was designed to offer a good cartridge that would deliver results along the lines of the 300 Winchester Magnum without the large belted magnum case. I guess from what I read it does a good job of doing that as not much is sacrificed. Again, I don't own one but would like to have one in the future. My only reference book on hand that covers the 300 WSM is my newer Lyman 49th edition. My older manuals don't cover it. My conclusion is the 300 WSM can be downloaded (as in starting loads) and get velocities close to 308 Winchester using max or close to maximum loads. While not a belted magnum case the 300 WSM seems to be loaded with the slower burning powders, even with the lighter 30 caliber bullets. Typical for a magnum case with the slower burning powders while the 308 Winchester generally thrives on the mid range burn rates.

Before I forget, my comments regarding ammunition cost were not aimed at you at all. Merely me saying that I personally do not see that a much weight in the caliber decision making process. Availability yes, cost not so much. :)

I live in Ohio and hunting deer with a rifle is non existent. Being a lover of rifles all my deer hunting was done in Upstate NY or mostly West Virginia. My longest shots were likely in the 70 to 80 yard range and mostly using big bullets from a 44 magnum carbine or my 444 Marlin. However, I took plenty using a 308 Winchester with 180 grain bullets.

I will say this. Many will argue that hunting successfully is all about shot placement and I can agree with that. Unfortunately in my little real world shot placement wasn't always what I wanted it to be. When one is wet and cold on the side of a mountain in brush things don't always go as one would like. I never lost a deer and despite a few not so well placed shots never destroyed any meat with a 180 grain bullet traveling along at better than 2,000 or 2,300 FPS give or take. Never had the opportunity to hunt deer or elk at those wonderful 400 yard prone shots in my little world. I wouldn't worry too much about meat loss as a result of hydrostatic shock of a 180 grain bullet. Bullets do strange things once they get where they are going. They may hit bone and make strange turns leaving the shooter wondering why the heck did it do that?

All in all I am not telling you to run out and buy a 300 WSM tomorrow and it will be the best thing since sliced bread in your life. I am saying that since you mentioned the cartridge I would certainly consider it. I am also saying that given a choice between a 308 Winchester and the 300 WSM I would jump on the 300 WSM, but I also own several 30-06 rifles (including an 03A3) and several 308 Winchester rifles. So for me the 300 WSM would be my choice. Overall you don't give up much taking a 308 Win when compared to a 30-06 and you don't give up much when taking a 300 WSM over a 300 Winchester Magnum.

What you are getting here is a whole lot of my opinion and we know what can be said about opinions. :)

Take all the opinions and weigh them out. Then make your decision and move on it. That being my suggestion.

Ron

jason41987
April 16, 2013, 09:46 PM
i like the WSM, ive actually been thinking about getting one at some point.. i could always use my mosin nagant for deer hunting, i have an M38 which is the 20" version without the bayonet, so about 2lbs lighter than any other mosin nagant rifle, so.. i dont need this new bolt action for hunting

jason41987
April 17, 2013, 08:08 AM
so... the more i think about it, the more i think im going to settle on .300 WSM... so im curious to know which brand bolt actions you like most, and why?.. trying to decide if i should go with a savage, or one of the other manufacturers

MtnCreek
April 17, 2013, 09:26 AM
You're headed the wrong direction. Get a target or tactical style short action in something like .308, 7-08, 260, 6.5... Look for ~1:10 for .30 and ~1:8 for .26. Use good mounts w/ 15 to 20 moa elev and put a good scope on it. Shoot, shoot, shoot and repeat.

jason41987
April 18, 2013, 03:54 AM
why mtncreek, is there something wrong with the 300WSM?

scythefwd
April 18, 2013, 04:25 AM
JCIN - the 25-06 can do 1k, but there is a lot of wind drift that goes along with it due to the very light bullets.

I'd go savage and build it out. The actions are relatively cheap (especially if you can get a used stevens 200 .. same action as the savage 110). Match barrels run 320 or so (shilen too), you can do everything at home with 2 tools (ok, maybe need to buy a 5/32 allen wrench, action wrench, barrel nut wrench, an allen wrench or flat blade screw driver for the bolt assembly screw, and the vice if you dont have em already). I built one recently for 770, and only cheaped out on the stock.. which got pillar and glass bedded.

jason41987
April 18, 2013, 06:30 AM
are savages easier to work on and customize vs the other mentioned rifles?... how do you adjust the headspacing on them?.. my experience in building rifles is on AK rifles, where i simply press the barrel in further or out further to headspace before drilling the barrel pin hole.. havent worked on a bolt action yet, but its something i really want to get into

just went to midway to check prices on a barrel vice and an action wrench.. both tools i already knew id need for a custom build... hmm, yeah, this is the route id REALLY like to go if possible.. im currently looking around for actions, be them FN mauser actions, savages, or new actions

MtnCreek
April 18, 2013, 10:01 AM
is there something wrong with the 300WSM?

Not that I know of, but I don't have one and have only shot a couple. Other than action size, it looks to be pretty similar to a 300wm. In the wm, 190gr bullet min with 70+ grs powder makes for a lot of recoil and half or less the barrel life that you'd get from a milder cartridge. With proper position, recoil will be manageable, but what are you gaining from the magnum? You could take a high BC bullet in a smaller cartridge and have similar ballistics to the magnum w/o all the recoil, throat erosion & powder cost. I was shooting 300wm and have switched to a 6.5CM for most target shooting. Less recoil than a .308w and ballistics similar to a 208amax @ 2900 (win mag). All I'm giving up is energy on target and that really doesn't mean much to me. If I was shooting really long range, then a mag 30 cal would have an advantage, but I run out of pasture long before then.

MtnCreek
April 18, 2013, 10:06 AM
are savages easier to work on and customize vs the other mentioned rifles?

Yep. Wheeler action wrench, go / no-go gauges and a homemade barrel vise made from 2x2 white oak and a bench vise is all you need. If you're starting with a stripped action, you don't even need the barrel vise.

jason41987
April 18, 2013, 10:44 AM
yeah, im shopping around for some actions now to see whats available.. any recommendations on some relatively inexpensive newly made stripped actions to build upon?

MtnCreek
April 18, 2013, 11:09 AM
Stripped actions may be a little hard to come by for a deal. Best bet may be a used, complete rifle. My last action was a new Rem 700 .243 Youth for $417 from Wally World. The used, stripped actions I was seeing were getting pretty close to $400 and I would have had to send check, wait for shipment...

Reloadron
April 18, 2013, 06:09 PM
are savages easier to work on and customize vs the other mentioned rifles?... how do you adjust the headspacing on them?.. my experience in building rifles is on AK rifles, where i simply press the barrel in further or out further to headspace before drilling the barrel pin hole.. havent worked on a bolt action yet, but its something i really want to get into

just went to midway to check prices on a barrel vice and an action wrench.. both tools i already knew id need for a custom build... hmm, yeah, this is the route id REALLY like to go if possible.. im currently looking around for actions, be them FN mauser actions, savages, or new actions
The Savage family of rifles can be viewed more as a shooting system where barrel changes with pre chambered barrels is quite easy. This video is a good overview. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZWdzNmrnAU) Basically with a closed bolt and a minimum Go Gauge installed in the chamber you screw the barrel down till it stops, then run the jam nut down and tighten it. Barrel manufacturers like Shilen Rifle Barrels (http://www.shilen.com/savageBarrels.html) make drop in barrels. When we say drop in, it doesn't get any simpler. :)

Note: I suggested using a good headspace gauge! There are some that will argue that a new factory case can be used. Any competent gunsmith will tell you to use a gauge. Take that for what it worth.

So with a pre chambered barrel a barrel change on a Savage is a quick and simple procedure. Now obviously you want to properly secure the action but no, an action wrench or barrel vise is not used. Additionally, the bolt face dimensions need to match the cartridge. They make wrenches just for working on Savage rifles. (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/288765/wheeler-engineering-barrel-nut-wrench-savage-10-110)

Ron

clutch
April 18, 2013, 06:23 PM
another reason for me to go .30-06 is that i do intend on getting a garand, maybe even before this, and at some point a 1903 springfield, and i just cant imagine collecting either of these in any other caliber... but firesky is right, you can make a huge number of other cartridges based on 30-06 brass

A plus for the .30-06 is ammo is still available in most stores where I live.

A negative for me is if I had a long range bolt action in .30.-06 there is a possibility I might mix up a load for a bolt action that would ruin my Garand due to pressure curves and the op rod. So the Garand and the O3A3 are the only ought sixes I have and my precision bolt action is in .308 Winchester.

jason41987
April 18, 2013, 10:27 PM
i know all about headspacing, just thought on bolt actions you had to machine off part of the breach face to move the chamber further back until its headspaced because the barrels were torqued on, i didnt know savages had an alternative method for securing the barrel like that, thats quite interesting

would it be possible to convert their target action they sell seperately to take a magazine?

jason41987
April 18, 2013, 11:20 PM
im watching some youtube videos and apparently a lot has change since i last looked at putting bolt actions together... seems a lot of manufacturers now have barrel systems that are pretty simple to change with the basic tools and a set of gauges... so its really looking like im going to build this rifle

if barrels are this easy to change... if .300WSM does shorten barrel life does it honestly matter?.. and if its this easy to change barrels, why not eventually have a collection of barrels?.. looks like it takes but half an hour to make a swap

Cee Zee
April 18, 2013, 11:55 PM
I think you would have a lot of work in their target action and you'd be essentially doing all the development work that a factory does but hoping it comes out right on the first try. I'm betting it would be a whole lot easier just to buy an action capable of using a DBM or whatever. Those target actions cost more than a lot of rifles do. I wouldn't dream of doing that kind of experimenting on one. They work really well just like they are so I wouldn't be anxious to monkey with one. But if you have enough cash I'm sure anything is possible.

jason41987
April 19, 2013, 12:40 AM
didnt savage used to sell their normal actions for like $350?

i guess i could buy a new rifle... take the old barrel off, remove the stock, and sell them.. which would bring the total cost of just getting the action down to a reasonable level, then buy a barrel with the rifling, chamber, and profile i want, with the stock i want, and have a custom savage bolt action

im going to look at savage triggers some more, i really like those single set triggers that offer a safer trigger pull, but if you push forward on the trigger itself, it goes into a hair trigger mode.. i like this idea because it gives me greater safety if i do in fact hunt with it, but allows me the option of an incredibly light trigger pull before i take the shot

im going to try to find a heavier barrel contour, like a heavy varmint contour, but im not going bull barrel on it, thats just WAY too much weight.. and since i have decided to go with the savage, im probably going to get the choate tactical stock, or the bell and vertical comb medalist stock

jason41987
April 19, 2013, 04:03 AM
its my understanding the 110, 111, 112, 114, and 116 models all fit the same stocks, but differ in stock configurations and finishes.. so im trying to decide that if i decide to refinish it too, whether i should start with a blued or stainless model

studying the design more with the bolt handle and bolt heads being interchangable parts, i guess this is what id consider to be a truly modular bolt action rifle.. bolt heads are fairly cheap too so it looks like i could get a short action and really experiment with different cartridges at the cost of a not so expensive drop in barrel.. and even the bolt head allows me to decide if i want push feed or centerfeed... amazing, i never knew savages gave you this much control over your rifle... the more i read, the more im not only liking these, but really wanting one

the only thing id want that the savage doesnt offer, but offers more than enough benefits that have sold me on the savage, is that it appears to be a bolt mounted ejector, it would be nice to be able to slowly pull a bolt back so my brass doesnt go flying.. so i could just drop it off into a box

jason41987
April 20, 2013, 08:09 AM
a quick question, i noticed a barrel change on a remington rifle that used a collar that went over the threads of the barrel, barrel is threaded into the receiver over a headspacing gauge and then the collar is tightened against the receiver, why couldnt this system be used on other rifles as it seems to be specifically the barrel thats changed, receiver seems the same

Reloadron
April 20, 2013, 09:09 AM
Do you mean the Bergara Quick Barrel Assembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS31OY-fUI4)?

That system uses the same method made popular with the Savage rifles. As to how well it works and does it remain tight I haven't a clue as I never used it. At a glance it doesn't seem it would be hard to duplicate. Again, I haven't a clue as to how reliable it is.

This summer I have a short action Remington 700 action with a broken bolt. I originally built this rifle in 6mm PPC as a school project gun. Maybe it would be interesting to play around with the concept. I was thinking about reaming the barrel out to a 243 once I find another bolt. Thinking about a PTG bolt for 308 which would work fine.

I retire real soon so I won't have access to a machine shop but can likely find one to do the work.

Ron

jason41987
April 20, 2013, 06:51 PM
reloadron, thats exactly what im referring to, thought that was a remington 700 product, but i guess its not.. i wonder if this could be used on other actions... probably still going with a savage, but im curious for the possibility of future builds

Reloadron
April 20, 2013, 08:05 PM
Hi Jason

What much of this would come down to is given the right tools, like a machine shop and some machining skills there is quite a bit that can be accomplished.

Worth noting is in the video using the barrel used there was still a need for a barrel vise and the Remington 700 action wrench. Also note that the wrench head had the recess for the lug. He begins to run the barrel in, then stops and places the lug in the recess cutout of the wrench head.

The Savage system is much easier requiring less tooling. Really slick. Years ago Savage made a fine rifle at a great price. Unfortunately because of the lower price many people seemed to think the rifles were "cheap" or "inferior" when in fact they weren't. Hell in a matter on minuets a barrel swap can be done on a Savage using a minimum or reasonably priced tools.

Ron

jason41987
April 20, 2013, 08:34 PM
well, it seems im probably going to get two actions.. one short, one long, and if barrels change that quick i could just buy different barrels with the appropriate headspacing gauges, and required bolt heads... but i want a short action first either .300WSM, .308 winchester, or 6.5 creedmoor, of which i havent really decided, but 6.5 creedmoor and .300WSM are pretty close..

and later on, id like something BIG, like .338 lapua, .300 weatherby magnum or .300RUM kind of big

jason41987
April 21, 2013, 02:50 AM
ya know what.. ive been studying these "improved" 6.5mm cartridges, studying ballistics and such.. can someone tell me the difference between the 6.5mm creedmoor and the 6.5x47mm lapua?

firesky101
April 21, 2013, 04:32 AM
ya know what.. ive been studying these "improved" 6.5mm cartridges, studying ballistics and such.. can someone tell me the difference between the 6.5mm creedmoor and the 6.5x47mm lapua?
The 6.5 creedmore has more case capacity, and I think the brass can be formed from .22-250. The 6.5x47 uses higher pressures to get the velocity it does, which is fine as long as you are using brass as strong as lapua intended. It may limit your choice in actions, but I would think any modern action could take the pressure just fine. Personally I would go with the creedmore over the lapua. You can also consider .260 rem.

jason41987
April 21, 2013, 04:56 AM
nah, teh 260 remington just seems to be the odd one out, it seems to be a bit old.. creedmoor is really starting to take off in the consumer market though, im starting to see that stuff spring up everywhere... 6.5x55mm in a short action essentially

Reloadron
April 21, 2013, 07:09 AM
nah, teh 260 remington just seems to be the odd one out, it seems to be a bit old.. creedmoor is really starting to take off in the consumer market though, im starting to see that stuff spring up everywhere... 6.5x55mm in a short action essentially
Old? Old you say of the 260 Remington? :) The 260 Remington was born around '97 but my take is Remington only standardized one of several older wildcat cartridges at the time. The 6.5mm Creedmoor is a centerfire rifle cartridge introduced by Hornady in 2007 making it a new comer to the game. Whether it is an improvement over the 260 Remington? I guess that remains to be seen, they are very similar.

The .308 Winchester was introduced in 1952 when I was every bit of 2 years old and a little young to appreciate what a cool cartridge it was. All good cartridges seem to in some ways be the offspring of some parent cartridge and in the case of the 308 rumor has it that it spawned from the 300 Savage developed around 1920.

The 308 was no slouch in producing offspring with cartridges such as the .243 Winchester, the .260 Remington (aka 6.5-08 A-Square), the 7 mm-08 Remington to name a few. You can neck it up, down and all around.

During the early 90s there were tons of Swedish Mauser rifles pouring into the US that back then, in excellent condition were selling for around $69 give or take. These rifles, or more in particular the 6.5 x 55 cartridge led me to an interest in the accuracy these cartridges delivered. My brother-in-law used one of those Mauser actions to build a nice match rifle as a NRA school project one summer. That rifle later got him a few matches. I was later focused on the 260 Remington, a cartridge based on a necked down 308 offering a short action. I never got very far as a promotion at work distanced me from shooting. My wife and I eventually sold the gun shop business we owned and most of my shooting was indoor range as time allowed. I saw great potential in the 260 Remington at the time.

If you have not done so already give this article a read: 6.5mm Shootout: .260 Remington vs. 6.5x47 Lapua vs. 6.5 Creedmoor. (http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=1) The author is a well accomplished shooter with won matches to support his thinking. While he does show a preference for the 260 Remington he is very open in his conclusions. What he gets across is for anyone already having one of the chamberings stick with what you have, for someone considering a new rifle in one of those chamberings just weigh your options carefully. I can agree with that. :)

Ron

jason41987
April 21, 2013, 07:53 AM
ive read that article.. and what i dont understand really is the 6.5x47mm lapua... the case is much shorter than it needs to be, i dont really see much more than 140 grain bullets for 6.5 and the creedmoor and 260 fire this bullet just fine, so a shorter case body doesnt make much sense to me

between the creedmoor and 260 remington, it seems the shoulder is rolled up further with a sharper angle on the creedmor, which gives it enough extra case capacity for an average of about 100fps.. but feel free to give your opinion on the 3, if i decided to get behind one of them, id have no problem making cartridges, but first impression is that the creedmoor offers the most velocity, and is better established in the consumer market being able to find more ammo for it than the other two

Reloadron
April 21, 2013, 10:34 AM
My best guess and that is about it, a guess would be the 6.547mm Lapua was first a European developed cartridge unlike the 260 Remington or the 6.5 Creedmoor which spawned in the US.

The 6.5x47mm Lapua (or 6.5x47mm) was developed with a single reason in mind. They were looking to develop an extremely accurate 300 meter competition cartridge. Yes, it is shorter than its brethren but with a case length of 47mm the cartridge is a roughly 63,000 psi cartridge. That is quite a bit of chamber pressure pushing the lighter bullets in the 139 / 140 grain range. My guess, and only a guess would be that they wanted a chamber well suited for an accurate cartridge capable of high chamber pressure using a well suited powder (burn rate for pressure curve). The case volume gave them what they wanted. Having a greater case volume would have likely defeated their intent. That would be purely my guess.

OK, the 6.5x47mm Lapua was developed as a match rifle cartridge designed to offer peak performance at 300 yards. It was never marketed as or touted as a hunting cartridge.

The 260 Remington was actually designed more as a hunting cartridge and in the early years touted and marketed as such. In my little opinion Remington somewhat missed the boat on that note. Maybe they were busy focused on their 6mm BR, I don't know. It was only later that shooters began to see the merits of the cartridge for match shooting using better than hunting bullets. The 260 Remington being in the roughly 60,000 PSI family.

Something else that you have hit upon several times figures into the game here. The shoulder angles. A steeper shoulder angle for any given case will obviously increase case capacity allowing for more powder and increased velocity but do we reach a point of diminishing returns? In some cases you realize a few hundred feet per second more velocity but does it matter? How far or hard do we want to push the pressure curve?

The 6.5x47mm lapua has a 30 degree shoulder, the 260 Remington 40 degrees and the 6.5 Creedmoore comes in at 30 degrees.

The 6.5 Creedmoor could be described as a .260 Rem. modified with a 0.11" shorter case, a sharper 30-degree shoulder, and less body taper. Full case capacity of the Creedmoor is 52.1 grs. of water, compared to 54.4 grs. for the .260 Rem. (both measurements taken using new, unfired cases).

The above quote was taken from here. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=6.5%20creedmoor%20case%20dimensions&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanrifleman.org%2Fwebcontent%2Fpdf%2F2009-6%2F200961145351-hornadycreedmoor.pdf&ei=ufJzUbuFJPTI4AO0l4DgAw&usg=AFQjCNFvJHQ8LDX7J47OvDtxttSy7c17KA&cad=rja)

Note the 6.5 Creedmoor was developed as a target cartridge and not a hunting cartridge. So two of the three cartridges were developed primarily as target cartridges with only the Remington 260 developed to aim at the hunting audience. That is not to say any of the three would not serve well in either capacity because they have.

between the creedmoor and 260 remington, it seems the shoulder is rolled up further with a sharper angle on the creedmor, which gives it enough extra case capacity for an average of about 100fps.. but feel free to give your opinion on the 3, if i decided to get behind one of them, id have no problem making cartridges, but first impression is that the creedmoor offers the most velocity, and is better established in the consumer market being able to find more ammo for it than the other two

I would agree with that to a point. I see brass and components just about equally available. Keep in mind that the 6.5 Creedmoor was based on an improved version of the 260 Remington. Bitch of a choice huh? Today? I would try the Creedmoor simply considering the cartridge wasn't around when I had my 6.5mm phase in life. :)

Ron

Kachok
April 21, 2013, 11:54 AM
I have been in my 6.5mm "phase" for 25 years now, fantastic highly versatile bore. I beg to differ the 100fps difference in the Creedmore and 260, if you got 30 fps difference between the two at full potential in identical barrels I would be shocked. Of the two I like the Creedmore, little less powder, near identical performance, 30 degree shoulder to minimize case stretching and improved barrel life. Only advantage the 260 has is possibly a few extra fps at full stroke, and it's slighter shoulder works better in auto loaders. That said I am not trading my 6.5x55 for either of them anytime soon :)

USSR
April 21, 2013, 07:33 PM
Jason,

Have been following your thread, and I am curious as to how old you are?

Don

jason41987
April 21, 2013, 08:55 PM
im 28, why do you ask?

currently my only bolt action is my mosin nagant, so im basically at the point of asking myself, if you could only have one bolt action, which caliber would you want? to determine what i get and to be honest, the ammo shortages do make me lean towards more conventionally available cartridges for the fact i can easily stock up on brass for future use..

so the .308 winchester is the front-runner right now, im going to place the further limitations on my decision that the cartridge has to be able to be made from .308 brass in a pinch if needed, and with that would have to use the same bolt face

(thinking out loud)
whichever cartridge i decide, id like to be able to get fully behind, and this includes getting some semi automatics chambered for it, such as a custom AK build (ive built them before and im currently working on a .223/5.56mm AK build) or an FAL.. in either case, only a new barrel is necessary, but the shoulder angle on the .260 remington would probably feed more reliably in a semi automatic

the .260 remington would be easier to form from .308 based cartridges, feed more reliably in a semi, no performance loss over the creedmoor, has been around a few more years too..

ive narrowed my choice down to these calibers

.308 winchester
.260 remington
.338 federal

USSR
April 22, 2013, 10:57 AM
The reason I asked was, you seem to be "bouncing" all over the place regarding this, without any kind of firm grounding as far as a starting point or even where you want to end up. You've been given a lot of good advice, but it seems you keep changing the goal posts, and that keeps requiring further and different advice. I would step back, clearly define your criteria, and then do some research on your own before committing to anything. I say that having had 2 custom LR rifles built; one in .30-06 and one in 6.5x55. Just MHO.

Don

Custom built .30-06

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win06t1.jpg

Custom built 6.5x55

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/6.5Swede1.jpg

jason41987
April 22, 2013, 08:04 PM
i did define my criteria, a short action savage 110 in either .308 winchester, .260 remington, or .338 federal, and right now its the 308 winchesters game to lose

one question for you though USSR, what made you decide on the 6.5x55 over the short action 6.5 calibers which are ballistically identicle?

USSR
April 22, 2013, 09:56 PM
one question for you though USSR, what made you decide on the 6.5x55 over the short action 6.5 calibers which are ballistically identicle?

After the bullets, the most important thing for LR precision shooting is high quality brass (read that as Lapua). 10 years ago when I was building the 6.5x55, there was no 6.5x47 Lapua or 6.5 Creedmoor. There was the 6.5-.284, the .260 Remington, and the 6.5x55. The 6.5-.284 was the king of the hill at the time, and Lapua brass was available for it. However, it was typically not loaded to it's full potential because it was a barrel burner. Figure on replacing the barrel after 900 to 1200 rounds to maintain top accuracy. Also, when you load the 6.5-.284 with a 140gr bullet seated so that it doesn't intrude into the case body and reduce the amount of space for powder, it is too long to fit a short action magazine. So, you essentially had a single shot rifle unless you built it on a long action, which many guys did. The .260 Remington was the new kid on the block with a lot of adherents. However, since Lapua brass was not available for it, most guys were either necking up .243 Lapua brass or necking down .308 Lapua brass. Couldn't see myself going to all that trouble. Now, the 6.5x55 had an excellent reputation as an accurate round, Lapua brass is readily available, and I was convinced that I could match the typical 6.5-.284 velocity of 2900-2950fps with 139-142gr bullets; and I did. It's a pussy cat to shoot compared to the .30-06 slinging 190SMK's at 2900fps.

Don

jason41987
April 23, 2013, 02:01 AM
hmm.. interesting, i wonder though what the longest cartridge that can fit into the savage 110 is?... i notice the 300WSM is quite a bit longer than the 308 but still fits.. and im starting to lean more on the 260 remington after doing more ballistics calculations.. though the 308 and 338 bullets are less effected by wind, the 6.5mm is so much faster that even though it is pushed by wind easier, its so far down range by time it moves the projectile the same distance off target that it actually drifts less than the 308, with a flatter trajectory and less recoil.. so .260 remington in the lead

USSR
April 23, 2013, 08:13 AM
.. though the 308 and 338 bullets are less effected by wind, the 6.5mm is so much faster that even though it is pushed by wind easier, its so far down range by time it moves the projectile the same distance off target that it actually drifts less than the 308...

Actually, no. The .308 bullets are not effected by the wind less than 6.5mm bullets, they are effected more. And it has little to do with velocity. If you take a match .308 bullet such as the 190SMK and drive it at the same velocity as a 6.5mm bullet such as the Lapua 139gr Scenar, in a 10 mph crosswind at 1,000 yards, the .308 bullet will drift nearly 2 feet more than the 6.5mm Scenar. The reason is the 6.5mm match bullets have a much higher BC than most .308 match bullets, and as such are both flatter shooter and less effected by wind.

Don

jason41987
April 23, 2013, 11:37 AM
i was actually doing my ballistics tests with the 123 grain hornady a-max bullet... .510 ballistic coefficiency with a 123 grain bullet is quite aerodynamic, and light enough to have a considerable amount of velocity.. so the load i was looking at i believe was 150-200fps faster than the 168 grain 308 i was looking at...

its an interesting cartridge for sure.. im really starting to lean that way.. im kind of curious how the 260 remington is going to chamber in a semi automatic?.. if i go this route with the savage, my next rifle i plan to rebarrel a saiga 308 or FAL for the same cartridge

MtnCreek
April 23, 2013, 12:03 PM
I would think it would chamber as well as a .308w. The magazine may require seating the bullet a little deeper than you may otherwise want, but if you're talking saiga or fal, accuracy probably isn't goal #1 anyway.

Pick a flavor of 6.5 (260, 6.5cm, ...) with a barrel twist of 1:8 (or even 1:8.5) and start shooting it. If you wanted to go .308win, that would be a good choice too, but it would put you at a ballistic disadvantage compared to other cartridges.

There is no perfect cartridge and no perfect rifle. Pick one and start shooting it already! :)

Reloadron
April 23, 2013, 01:12 PM
its an interesting cartridge for sure.. im really starting to lean that way.. im kind of curious how the 260 remington is going to chamber in a semi automatic?.. if i go this route with the savage, my next rifle i plan to rebarrel a saiga 308 or FAL for the same cartridge

Years ago I chambered a M1 Garand in the 7mm-08 Remington and today if I want one I can buy an AR-10 chambered in the 260 Remington (http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10TBNF260), so I can't see why any other semi-automatic rifle couldn't be chambered in the 260 Remington? :)

Ron

USSR
April 23, 2013, 02:07 PM
If you're serious about 1,000 yard shooting as you stated in the OP, then you're going to shoot the 139 - 142gr bullets, and not the 123gr Scenar. Any difference in velocity with the 123gr bullet will not make up for the lower BC in comparison to the heavier bullets. I shot alongside 6.5mm shooters for many years in 1,000 yard F Class competition, and nobody shot the 123gr Scenars. This is why I stated earlier that you need to do much more research about LR shooting before you commit to anything.

Don

jason41987
April 23, 2013, 10:01 PM
i did a side by side test of hornadys a-max 123 grain with a ballistic coefficiency of .510 at 3,000fps, and their 140 a-max with a BC of .585 at 2800fps, the 140 even with a BC of only .75 more and 200fps less velocity was still ballistically superior, with less drop and less drift...

reason i did the ballistics test with the a-maxs and not lapuas is i wanted a test with bullets im more likely to use on a daily basis

sounds good then, 260 remington 1-8 inch twist, and tune my hand loads around 140 grains, probably with a medium varmint contour, or something similar, im not going to go with a bull barrel.. way too much weight for something thats not going to be benchrest

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