Ejection of primers


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kestak
April 15, 2013, 09:43 AM
Greetings,

Savage 110 30-06
A-max 168 grains
Federal Magnum primers.
Big Game 56.3 grains
Feeling for inserting the primer was positive and the same.
Brass FC
Shot 20 rounds the week before and everything was fine.
Worked up the load up to a velocity of 2600-2650 fps.

Last weekend: Temperature 10 degrees higher than previously.
Shot 5 rounds. EVERY one the primer came off the primer pocket.
The fifth round the ejector got stuck inside the bolt. I need to disassemble the bolt this morning to see what is the damage.

Anyone has any idea what went on?

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Matt Dillon
April 15, 2013, 10:07 AM
Yes, you need to toss that brass because it has lost tension in the primer pockets. Also, your powder may be temperature sensitive and may have a bit more pressure due to the change in temperature.

Walkalong
April 15, 2013, 10:13 AM
Yep, the brass is ruined, and you need to rework the load. I double check loads here in the 95 to 105 heat in the summer just to make sure they are OK.

rdhood
April 15, 2013, 11:21 AM
Is that the only way you can tell when a primer pocket is loose? Any other way besides actually priming/firing?

Arkansas Paul
April 15, 2013, 01:08 PM
Is that the only way you can tell when a primer pocket is loose?

The FC stamped on the case tells you that too. :evil:

Seriously, Federal brass is notorious for loose primer pockets. I can be priming with my Hornady priming tool and tell when I prime a piece of Federal brass without looking first, most of the time. They just don't offer much resistance.

mdi
April 15, 2013, 03:39 PM
I would purchase pin gauges of the appropriate diameter (see chart in link) and use as a "no-go" gauge. Personally, any indication of oversize pockets (extra easy insertion, loose primers after firing, primers falling out, etc.) is enough for me to toss it in the "brass bin"...http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

fguffey
April 15, 2013, 04:05 PM
Today, 08:43 AM #1
kestak
Member



Join Date: July 22, 2007
Posts: 1,281 Ejection of primers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings,

Savage 110 30-06
A-max 168 grains
Federal Magnum primers.
Big Game 56.3 grains
Feeling for inserting the primer was positive and the same.
Brass FC
Shot 20 rounds the week before and everything was fine.
Worked up the load up to a velocity of 2600-2650 fps.

Last weekend: Temperature 10 degrees higher than previously.
Shot 5 rounds. EVERY one the primer came off the primer pocket.
The fifth round the ejector got stuck inside the bolt. I need to disassemble
_______________________________________________________

I can measure the case head diameter, I have tools for measuring the flash hole, I adjust the length of the case to off set the the length of the chamber. I use Federal brass, I use Federal primers.

If I assumed you sized the case length to match the chamber I would be wrong. I am the fan of cutting down on case travel.

I would suggest you check the bolt face for metal cutting, it starts out as a round black ring the size of the primer, it does not take long.

Then there is the part where you stuck the part in the bolt,

"The fifth round the ejector got stuck inside the bolt" I do not know what position the ejector was in, I do not know if the case rim was in front or behind the extractor. point? I do not know the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face, I do not know if the cases are being sized too short.

It would be nice if the brass is the problem. You can change the brass from Federal to any brand, I hope the problem goes away after changing brands.

F. Guffey

gamestalker
April 15, 2013, 05:14 PM
I assume this is happening when the firearm is discharged? Are the primers in tact, or blown to pieces?

I load a lot of high power, and I also load a lot of FC brass, at least as much as any other head stamp. I don't usually track the number of times I load brass, so it's hard to differentiate from one head stamp to the other. But I have not noticed anything unusual about FC brass that should earn it a label, as having over sized pockets.

I assume the primers are getting pushed out when firing the weapon? This could be caused by excessively low pressures.

GS

GLOOB
April 15, 2013, 05:22 PM
Hard for me to imagine how the primers gets pushed all the way out, in a bolt action rifle. Fall out after the fact, ok. But pushed out? Wouldn't you need to have a humongous amount of excess headspace for that to happen, plus a loose pocket, plus a really weak powder charge?

Are the primers flowed, pierced, flattened, or do they display a deeper than normal firing pin mark?

Jim Watson
April 15, 2013, 05:27 PM
That is only a grain over Ramshot book maximum.
Maybe not just "only."

tightgroup tiger
April 15, 2013, 05:41 PM
I may be off base here but if I were you I would try to prime one of those shells again to see if they still feel normal or if the primer just pretty much falls in the primer pocket. I'm wondering if you pushed the shoulder back to far when you reloaded these this time around and had excessive head spacing.

I can see your bolt jamming up if the primer came clear out of the primer pocket but most reloaders size their shells for the chamber length they have in their particular rifle and not to what the book calls for max and min of case length.

If your cases were resized to the chamber length of your rifle I can't see how the primers could have came clear out. The bolt would have kept that from happening. They may have backed out a little but to come clear out there would have to be a lot of excess space in the chamber for that to happen.

Re-prime one of the bad cases to see if the primer pockets are really that loose, I have a feeling you have more than one problem.

If they are loose, chuck the brass. If they aren't you have to find out how the primers could come clear out of the brass after being fired.

This really sounds strange to me.

Hondo 60
April 15, 2013, 06:24 PM
Tula primers may be able to extend the life of that brass.
They're just a touch larger than say, CCI or Winchester, etc.

murf
April 15, 2013, 06:35 PM
maximum of 54.7 grains of big game in the hornady manual. that is using federal 210 (non-magnum) primers.

suggest you back off your load at least two grains and switch to a non-magnum primer.

murf

243winxb
April 15, 2013, 07:03 PM
Other thread-over pressure also, different bullet weight. Maybe change powder? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=689285 3/10 gr. difference in the powder charge & you go to a heavier bullet? :confused:

vonrichthofen
April 15, 2013, 08:49 PM
Damn, I'd sure enough be too puckered to shoot this load without some really careful study and some measurements. I also don't understand how the primers were pushed out without shoulder damage.

tightgroup tiger
April 15, 2013, 09:51 PM
Yea, I believe if that Rifle were mine it and the fired brass would be going to a gun smith to be checked out before it was fired again with any load.

Wondering about the nut that holds the barrel on at this point.

Edarnold
April 16, 2013, 04:50 AM
Seen many cases in NRA matches of AR shooters having stoppages from the fired primer falling out and jamming the action. These are always handloads with the shooter trying to get that extra bit of velocity, and in most cases heads were shaken over the soft Federal brass. Not for nothing are primers crimped in for military ammunition.
I agree that from the numbers the OP is shooting proof loads or beyond, generally primers don't fallout until you exceed 70,000 psi. Just because the manual says some load is maximum in their test rifle doesn't mean it's maximum in YOUR rifle.

kestak
April 16, 2013, 05:13 PM
Just checked latest data: 52.0 to 58.0 grains. Disassembeld 4 rounds: 55.9 to 56.3 grains. Considering some powder felt off while transfering from hammer to container I am not concerned with the discrepancy. I use magnum because with the normal I had too much velocity AND precision discrepancies.

There is a ring of 'pitted' metal corresponding to the primer diameter with black in it. I know it is coming from the primers. but it was there already from previous shooting. Only gun that has that with my 30-06.

All brass is within specs. I can measure shoulder, lenght, etc. Inserted primers into primers pockets they enter VERY easilly but do not fall off.

Tried the rounds in another rifle. Soth around the primer but the primers did not fall during extraction. I want to point out before I shot those rounds with no problem in the same rifle.

More info: 3 of the 4 scope screws broke. I noticed the scope was wiggling.
I dissassembled the bolt. Everything ok except I could not push the pin of the ejector because no punch as small as needed.

I am going in a couple hours to my friend who is gunsmith to check that rifle. He will be able to check headspace and remove the ejector and fix the scope screws. I will also shoot other kind and same ammo right away at his range to see if problem persists.

Kp321
April 16, 2013, 05:52 PM
Have you checked your scales? Sure sounds like a classic case of overpressure. Doesn't take much brass flow to bind up the ejector, or it could be debris from the blown primers in the ejector hole.

kestak
April 16, 2013, 05:56 PM
Hehehehe...yes i did check scales and weighted the powder on two scales.
Anyone has the hornady data. maybe they have different data with big game powder in 30-06?

243winxb
April 16, 2013, 06:38 PM
a ring of 'pitted' metal corresponding to the primer diameter with black in it. If on the bolt face, gas is leaking between the primer & brass. Loose primer pockets or undersize primers. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak/WLRDefect.jpg http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak/270WSM2.jpg

kestak
April 16, 2013, 10:49 PM
Found the problem at the gunsmith:ejector was the issue.
Now it shoots with no problem.
The mount screws problem was not related to the problem. They would have been an issue anyway.

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