Help with pressure signs


PDA






32_d3gr33s
April 17, 2013, 12:38 AM
just shot a quite a few of my latest loads. First couple times i was out shooting i was staying with the lighter loads. Now that I'm a little more comfortable i was working my way towards the higher end of things. IM not real postitive on weather or not these are normal, so i figured id ask to make sure. these are remington cases, federal 100 primers. and green dot powder in my 9mm They shoot great, are quite accurate. They are a higher charge, but still within recommended loading ranges. (my lower charges all looked very similar too)
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/CF049013-727C-4873-B5D2-FF26CE111773-3220-000002401AA16005_zps25ed292b.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/farfegnewgen/media/CF049013-727C-4873-B5D2-FF26CE111773-3220-000002401AA16005_zps25ed292b.jpg.html).
Mine (left 2) look pretty flat compared to the original remington rounds... (right 2)
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/9D3F7670-A385-4B47-8BD8-E9EF8E1B1ED5-3220-000002429401DF4A_zps4d30fb3b.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/farfegnewgen/media/9D3F7670-A385-4B47-8BD8-E9EF8E1B1ED5-3220-000002429401DF4A_zps4d30fb3b.jpg.html)

All of my .38 special looked fine -remington cases, Remington no 5 1/2 primers and green dot.(i have no more standard pistol primers)
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/9DDB8143-8F96-461A-9FD2-6E09D15AF6C5-3220-00000243B353B81C_zps25d2ed02.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/farfegnewgen/media/9DDB8143-8F96-461A-9FD2-6E09D15AF6C5-3220-00000243B353B81C_zps25d2ed02.jpg.html)

Then my .357 mag loads also seemed to look fine, but i had an issue on a couple of the rounds.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/4236399D-C597-48F6-8E87-FE0108875E36-3220-0000024023094D07_zps6648e68c.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/farfegnewgen/media/4236399D-C597-48F6-8E87-FE0108875E36-3220-0000024023094D07_zps6648e68c.jpg.html)

One of the issues that i had, is when the say heavy crimp, I guess they mean HEAVY crimp! only one i had do it, but it had me puzzled for a minute on why my cylinder wouldnt advance to the next round.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/3FC43656-10CC-4D94-AE02-656C3988DE99-3220-00000244A06EEC93_zpsb868e14a.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/farfegnewgen/media/3FC43656-10CC-4D94-AE02-656C3988DE99-3220-00000244A06EEC93_zpsb868e14a.jpg.html)

Other issue i had, is i had a couple rounds with what looks to be double firing pin strikes. these were the "hottest" loads that i made, but only 2 of 10 had the marks. Havent really seen anything on this before...


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/EB881E78-F680-466B-BA54-90323EBB83CC-3220-00000240108BDF35_zps8e2f2874.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/farfegnewgen/media/EB881E78-F680-466B-BA54-90323EBB83CC-3220-00000240108BDF35_zps8e2f2874.jpg.html)

all in all I think everything went quite well for my first couple hundred reloads.

If you enjoyed reading about "Help with pressure signs" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
gamestalker
April 17, 2013, 02:22 AM
I don't rely solely on primers for my pressure indicators. For auto loaders I will look at primers, velocity, and how far the brass kicks out. Now for revolver rounds how they extract, how the primers look, and velocity.
As for how your primers look, most look a bit anemic to me, but as I said primers are not a single most indicator.

And if they are cycling your pistol properly your definitely getting at least the minimum. And if you are wanting to work up to a more stout load, or +p levels if so desired, you would probably do better with a bit slower burning powder than Green Dot. HS6 and Longshot are my personal choices for full power 9mm, and 38 spcl. as well, does good with those two powders.

GS

32_d3gr33s
April 17, 2013, 02:29 AM
I don't rely solely on primers for my pressure indicators. For auto loaders I will look at primers, velocity, and how far the brass kicks out. Now for revolver rounds how they extract, how the primers look, and velocity.
As for how your primers look, most look a bit anemic to me, but as I said primers are not a single most indicator.

And if they are cycling your pistol properly your definitely getting at least the minimum. And if you are wanting to work up to a more stout load, or +p levels if so desired, you would probably do better with a bit slower burning powder than Green Dot. HS6 and Longshot are my personal choices for full power 9mm, and 38 spcl. as well, does good with those two powders.

GS
thanks for the reply. I would love to get a chrono but funds are a little tight right now, so for the mean time i was just observing the primers/functionality etc. I guess im not sure what you mean by anemic? could you explain that one to me? as for powder, i also loaded with some power pistol and 2400, but the bulk of the ammo i shot today was loaded with green dot. I was basically going through a range of powder charges and different bullet weights/styles to see what worked the best for me. I figured comparing everything with the same components would help be determine what load i liked best.

gamestalker
April 17, 2013, 02:40 AM
Anemic means not very high up on the performance level, and in this case your primers seemed to be producing nominal pressures, but that's a good thing since you are just getting started. Keep doing what your doing, your going about the right way.
And I completely understand wanting to work with other bullets and powders, good approach. I was just bringing the slow burning powders up for your benefit, if you should be attempting to work up a stout full power load in the future. As for 2400 and Power Pistol, both are good powders for working up stout loads with the revolver, but Green Dot is a much faster burner than either of those two, and will be more difficult to achieve high velocities with.

GS

32_d3gr33s
April 17, 2013, 02:48 AM
ahh ok. that makes sense! Im hoping some more components become available in the near future. I would love to try a handful of different powders, but right now, kind of hard to do. Eventually ill have a bigger selection, but for the time being im pretty limited. all in due time though...

Steve C
April 17, 2013, 04:39 AM
Your .38 and .357 mag primers look normal except for that extra "dimple" in the 2 .357 mag cases. In a revolver there is seldom a problem with firing pin drag unless you are getting sloppy with your trigger work and not releasing it completely after firing or not pulling the trigger through when firing DA or only partially operating the hammer in SA and dropping it on a previously fired primer that moved with only a partial turn of the cylinder and wasn't alined center.

Your 9mm cases either are high enough on pressure to cause the cratering OR you just have a overly large firing pin hole that's allowing the primer to flow around the pin. The wipe mark indicates that the firing pin isn't retracting fast enough and is still extended when the case begins to move during extraction. This could be an inadequate firing pin retraction spring OR overpressure if your round is too hot and moving the action too fast. Since you don't list your loads I can't evaluate how hot your loads are. If the primers of shot factory rounds do not look the same you have the beginnings of a pressure problem. I'd suggest your drop your load down a couple 10ths of a grain and see if the swipe and cratering doesn't disappear.

If you are well below the load data the problem could be too low a chamber pressure as that will often mimic similar primer appearance as high pressure esp in revolvers. Normally though in semi's the action will not function with excessively low pressure ammo.

Grumulkin
April 17, 2013, 08:32 AM
Do NOT use primer signs of pressure in semiauto handguns. By the time you have an indication of high pressure the load will be too high.

Do NOT use primer signs of pressure in revolvers unless it happens to be a very strong one like a Freedom Arms, a S&W 460V, etc.

kingmt
April 17, 2013, 09:04 AM
The primers will flatten but not follow long before over pressure in 9mm but by the time you are follow you are way over pressure those are still light loads. Unless your making a SD round that you need/want the bullet to open up there is no need to best tour fun up with high pressure loads. If it cycles your in a good ball park.

No idea about the two marks. Looks like there may be something wrong with the gun.

Arkansas Paul
April 17, 2013, 09:30 AM
Do NOT use primer signs of pressure in semiauto handguns. By the time you have an indication of high pressure the load will be too high.

Do NOT use primer signs of pressure in revolvers unless it happens to be a very strong one like a Freedom Arms, a S&W 460V, etc.

+1
Looking at a case and or primers to identify pressure issues is not reliable with handgun stuff. As has been said, by the time pressure signs show up, it is often too late.

fguffey
April 17, 2013, 09:35 AM
I am sure you posted the pistol make and model. If I was getting a dent from firing and another dent from the hammer bounce I would quit shooting the pistol. There should be only one dent on the primer. It is not up to me to decide if the hammer can ‘bounce?’

F. Guffey

Comrade Mike
April 17, 2013, 10:35 AM
Because pressure signs in hand guns are much less obvious, the best advice I can give is to stay well within the published data so you don't have a problem.

With revolvers you'll see difficulty in extraction or unusual recoil. Autoloaders watch where your brass is being kicked out and again if any recoil feels unusual.

By the time primers start flattening and flowing back you're way over pressure.

627PCFan
April 17, 2013, 10:57 AM
You dont have pressure problems...These had pressure problems.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii15/JRSpicer426/IMG_0557_zps56ebc5ce.jpg (http://s260.photobucket.com/user/JRSpicer426/media/IMG_0557_zps56ebc5ce.jpg.html)



Borrowed from one of my previous posts

32_d3gr33s
April 17, 2013, 11:03 AM
For the 9mm I was shooting 4.7 gr of green dot pushing a 125 gr lead cone nose. The gun is a smith and Wesson m&p. (I'm now starting to wonder if this is too much. I couldn't find much data for green dot, so I started at 4.2 and worked to 5. 5.2 was the listed max I found. But now with more browsing around, I see a lot more people using closer to the 4.0 range so I wonder if I'm to hot?

as for the .357 with the double strike, that was in a ruger lcr with 14.8 gr of 2400 pushing a 158gr lswc. The .357 had a wicked amount of recoil, so I'm almost wondering if that amount of recoil is making the firing pin float and hit the primer a second time, or maybe just the recoil is not giving me a chance to completely pull/release the trigger in time. I'm not sure though, but those are the only times I have seen that second mark on there. In a load of 14.5gr I had no problems in numerous bullets. I then shot numerous rounds loaded with power pistol after the 2400, and didnt have any more marks either. All of my casings came out just fine

788Ham
April 17, 2013, 11:11 AM
As far as the .357 round, bullet pulled part-way out, was the brass full length resized? If not, thats part of the problem, they need to be FLR to keep neck tension up where it needs to be, to be sure of a tight crimp. Ask me how I know about .38 Spl rds.

kingmt
April 17, 2013, 05:23 PM
If cases get hard to extract you are way beyond max also.

rcmodel
April 17, 2013, 07:25 PM
5.2 grains green Dot + 125 grain lead bullet is MAX according to 2002 Alliant data.

rc

32_d3gr33s
April 17, 2013, 07:41 PM
5.2 grains green Dot + 125 grain lead bullet is MAX according to 2002 Alliant data.

rc
Yep that's what I saw too. That's why I stopped at 5.0. My scale has a .1 variance so I would still be under. Only shot 5 at that weight.

fguffey
April 18, 2013, 11:23 AM
“as for the .357 with the double strike, that was in a ruger lcr with 14.8 gr of 2400 pushing a 158gr lswc. The .357 had a wicked amount of recoil, so I'm almost wondering if that amount of recoil is making the firing pin float and hit the primer a second time, or maybe just the recoil is not giving me a chance to completely pull/release the trigger in time. I'm not sure though, but those are the only times I have seen that second mark on there. In a load of 14.5gr I had no problems in numerous bullets. I then shot numerous rounds loaded with power pistol after the 2400, and didn't have any more marks either. All of my casings came out just fine”
__________________

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ruger+lcr+357&qpvt=ruger+lcr+357&FORM=IGRE

“The .357 had a wicked amount of recoil”

“so I'm almost wondering if that amount of recoil is making the firing pin float and hit the primer a second time, or maybe just the recoil is not giving me a chance to completely pull/release the trigger in time”

quote:
#10
fguffey
Member



Join Date: August 28, 2008
Posts: 1,474 I am sure you posted the pistol make and model. If I was getting a dent from firing and another dent from the hammer bounce I would quit shooting the pistol. There should be only one dent on the primer. It is not up to me to decide if the hammer can ‘bounce?’

F. Guffey


So you believe it is possible the recoil drove the pistol back, then it stopped so suddenly the hammer was left hanging out then returned to create the 2nd dimple.

So I ask, if you pull the hammer back, does the cylinder rotate? I furnished a link for those that that have no clue what pistol is being discussed. Your pistol is a double action.

F. Guffey

MK75
April 18, 2013, 11:26 PM
The first picture is definitely primer cratering. That is a high pressure sign.

fguffey
April 19, 2013, 12:26 AM
Quote:
Posts: 50 The first picture is definitely primer cratering. That is a high pressure sign.


Yes, there is something there. Crater? A different kind of crater, the craters? I see look like they were made by a meteor coming in at an angle with a high wall on one side and a low wall on the other side of the crator.

F. Guffey

Jim K
April 19, 2013, 12:45 AM
The second dimple looks very much like the hammer fell with the gun out of time. A strike that far off center would likely not fire the primer, so it could be thought to be a dud round. I have never heard of a hammer "bouncing" and making such a mark.

The primer metal flow may be due to pressure or to a light firing pin blow. If the firing pin doesn't support the primer after igniting it, the internal pressure in the primer causes the metal to flow back into the firing pin hole.

Jim

32_d3gr33s
April 19, 2013, 01:12 AM
I guess I assumed that primer strike was normal. They have all looked very similar since the day I bought the gun. I've had about 1000 rounds through the gun and they all look similar. Here's a (hard to see) picture of a couple factory rounds and a couple reloads. Left is factory blazer, then factory federal then 2 of my reloads, left standard federal primer, right federal magnum primer.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/F09ED635-0818-4C3C-9880-191673D72DF7-1283-0000009E8221AB02_zpsf1a71f74.jpg

32_d3gr33s
April 19, 2013, 01:18 AM
The second dimple looks very much like the hammer fell with the gun out of time. A strike that far off center would likely not fire the primer, so it could be thought to be a dud round. I have never heard of a hammer "bouncing" and making such a mark.

The primer metal flow may be due to pressure or to a light firing pin blow. If the firing pin doesn't support the primer after igniting it, the internal pressure in the primer causes the metal to flow back into the firing pin hole.

Jim
I had no "dud" rounds. I always had 5 rounds and only took 5 shots. Whatever is happening, it's doing it while shooting that round. I went back through all of my previously shot brass (not a ton, but 100 or so rounds) and those were the only ones with the second mark. Like I said, those were the max green dot charge, and I shot numerous rounds of lower charges of a different powder after that, and had no more extra marks. I'm convinced its something to do with the heavy recoil from that hot of a load...

stargeezer
April 19, 2013, 01:29 AM
I've been cautioned about using magnum primers in 9mm since it causes a high initial spike in cup pressure. The overall pressure seen by the gun may be within limits with a regular primer at a given powder load, but due to the larger charge of the magnums primers, that instant ignition pressure exceeds the ratings of a 9mm.

I was told this by a long time shooter (like 50 years), who was a retired gunsmith and what I'd consider a master reloader. This shootist knows more about ammo than most of us know about our professions. FWIW.

Comrade Mike
April 19, 2013, 01:52 AM
I guess I assumed that primer strike was normal. They have all looked very similar since the day I bought the gun. I've had about 1000 rounds through the gun and they all look similar. Here's a (hard to see) picture of a couple factory rounds and a couple reloads. Left is factory blazer, then factory federal then 2 of my reloads, left standard federal primer, right federal magnum primer.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/farfegnewgen/F09ED635-0818-4C3C-9880-191673D72DF7-1283-0000009E8221AB02_zpsf1a71f74.jpg

The primer on the far right looks flattened, unless its just a trick of the light.

fguffey
April 19, 2013, 09:42 AM
quote:
Posts: 1,476 It is not up to me to decide if the hammer can ‘bounce?’

F. Guffey
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“It is not up to me to decide if the hammer can ‘bounce?’ “

I ask “Does the cylinder rotate when the hammer is pulled back” no one answers, deductive reasoning would indicate if the cylinder rotates when the hammer is pulled back the cylinder would rotate if the hammer was driven back. I know, no one has ever seen ‘it’ and time is not a factor;) but the hammer can be driven back when the firing pin is engaged in the primer, on rifles a hole can appear because the firing pin spring applies less pressure than the pressure inside the case/primer. again, it is one of those .7854 things.

Out of time and two dents in the primer, then I said I would stop shooting the pistol, and again, no one answered. I know, the hammer can not fall and hit a primer unless the trigger is pulled, etc., etc..

It caught no ones attention, but high speed cameras recording the sequence of effects of pistols being fired recorded pistols with exposed hammers falling and recovering, ‘almost’ to half cock. Then there are the primers with the pucker on one side of the dent, and again it is not for me to decide, but I would expect the ‘half moon’ crater if the cylinder started to rotate while the firing pin was engaged.

Back to “I would not shoot that pistol”, It must be hard on the firing pin because there is nothing about the pistol/design that will tolerate going sideways, outside of the chance it is a tough pistol that is designed to protect us from ourselves.

F. Guffey

If you enjoyed reading about "Help with pressure signs" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!