I already feel I have the answer but still want to ask to be absolutely sure. Yesterday I picked up a Llama 45 1911 for a very cheap price, due in part to what someone did to the grips and rear sights. I disassemble the pistol and to my surprise it is in much better condition than I expected. I was going to take it out for a test fire and to my amazement I didn't have a single round of 45ACP, gave all I had to my son and he is out of town. Today I went by a Pawn/Gun shop that is owned by a friend, just wanted to pick up a few loose rounds if he had them. What he had was a grab bag of odd size rounds and one baggie had 45 Auto. When I looked at the ammo here at the house I noticed it had a ring around the body of case, then on head stamp it showed +P. I have no intention of shooting it in this Llama because I am concerned about over pressure and if the Llama would stand up to it. This is why I come to THR looking for others opinion.
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April 17, 2013, 03:54 PM
I wouldn't use that round.
April 17, 2013, 07:12 PM
Well, it's really hard to say just what you can and can't trust when the ammo comes this way. There are simply no guarantees of just WHAT you've got no matter what the headstamp says. One thing for sure, any of that which did not stand up to a thorough visual inspection would surely end up in a landfill were it me.
Having owned a Llama 1911 I believe it prudent to avoid +P. Someone will no doubt be along swearing that they shot 100,000 rounds of hot handloads clocking 1,500 fps. through their Llama, and indeed God may have a soft spot for such as they.
.45 acp standard is a low pressure round, Llama is not known for particularly good metalurgy and you will want to know if in it's present state it can feed reliably . I say hold off for some standard pressure factory with a reputation of feeding with JMB's design when followed faithfully. 230 gr. WWB FMJ? Check for a decent magazine and go from there.
P.S. I am seeing that Winchester white box nowadays is in the opinion of a significant number of people perhaps not consistent enough to use in forming a "baseline". Well things change, and the idea is to try to remove out of spec ammo as a variable. I will leave it to others to suggest their favorite standard for evaluating feeding. My second would be Magtech to avoid pricey experimentation, but what isn't pricey right now if you can even get it?
April 17, 2013, 07:50 PM
What's with the ring around the body of the case? Makes me wonder.
April 18, 2013, 12:04 AM
I am almost certain those are the famous "Baggie Brand" reloads, sold at gun shows and some gun shops nationwide. Reloaded under unknown conditions, by unknown persons at an unknown location, using an unknown powder in an unknown quantity, behind an unknown bullet of unknown weight and an unknown primer.
Other than that, it is sure to be great ammo. If it blows up your gun, contact the reloader.
The ring is from the sizing die where it had to squeeze the case back down to spec so it would feed properly. That is normal for reloads.
April 18, 2013, 12:30 AM
JIMK you have nailed each and every concern I had for the 45+p. Think I will wait until my son comes home and go get the 45acp I gave him. Never was my thing watching a gun especially my gun go from together to apart, just to save 50cts
April 18, 2013, 04:44 AM
I own a Llama "Especial" in 45 ACP; my mom bought it for me around 1966 for $70. It's a bit rough around the edges but it's always been a reliable and accurate gun. From my research, I don't think it's made of steel that's any softer than any other gun of its era including my "T" model BHP I bought in 1970.
The thing about "ammo in a bag" is you never know its origin, how it's been stored or if it's factory or built by some jackleg "ree-loader". I've been crafting ammunition since 1970 and the most I'd do with it is pull the bullets, dispose of the powder and primers and verify the worth of the bullets for melting. The cases are likely fine; they'd possibly get reused after a close inspection following a citric acid bath and drying.
April 18, 2013, 07:04 AM
Over the years I have owned several Llama's, never had a single issue with any of them. In regards to the 45 ammo my friend gave me I have made a simple drawing to give an idea as to what it is or not. Also these rounds look like factory loads but I know that What I see is not exactly what it is, being the head stamp does show +P makes me a little hesitant to use when all I have to do is wait two days until my son comes home. Between him and his son they wind up with most of what I have in the first place, and with ammo cost as it is now I know just how "CHEAP-THRIFTY" he is.
April 18, 2013, 07:21 AM
I've got a couple thousand rounds of 45 ACP "+P" stamped cases loaded to standard pressures. Several years ago, the only 45 ACP new brass I could find for initial loading was +P. It turns out, the bullets I used were from the same manufacturer and what I loaded looked exactly like factory fodder. In fact, I created a special label to say it was not factory. Too many of my shooting buddies asked too many questions about where I got the bulk factory JHP ammunition. Just me, I'm not in it to fool anybody.
The point is, if you don't know the ammunition's history, you can assume anything you want. The lure of a serendipitous ammunition find is just not worth it to me. As is the usual case, YMMV.
April 18, 2013, 07:55 AM
I would not shoot the grab bag ammo.
Not sure what you mean by a ring around the case.....but in the way back a crimp of some sort half way up the case to prevent bullet set back was common on .45 ACP. In military and Peters brand it was typically a smooth line around the case where the base of the bullet would be and on some commercial ( I believe Federal had it into the 80's) it was the sort of knurled crimp one saw on factory .38 Special back then.
Most of the horror stories ( usually second or later hand) I hear about Llamas having bad metalergy are about the 9mm from the late production. Still I would not shoot +P in Llama .45ACP just because it was not specifically so rated if it were me. About the third .45ACP I ever shot was one of my Dad's Police Auxillery buddy's Llama, not much direct experience with them in the 40+ years since. Dad had been thinking about buying a 1911-ish gun and the second had been a 1911A1 built up on a Randal Aluminum frame. The Llama I recall was more control able, but then the Chief decided every one should go .357 wheel gun (a regular Patrolman had an AD with an 870 and the chief got skittish about guns with too many controls) and Dad went Ruger Security Six.
When you get that there spitting beast of burden gussied up send us all a picture or two of it, eh? Does it have a lanyard loop?
April 18, 2013, 09:05 AM
KBOB I am in line with NO SHOOTING the Plus P ammo. I no longer reload and around May or June of last year my wife suggested that I buy all the gear to setup reloading again. At the time you could get bulk 22LR at Wally World 550 rd box for $20.00 +/-. Gosh I hate it when she is right, I never hear the end of it. Was up early today and started researching for all info on the Llama, finally found the proof marks but still not conclusive with the markings. In one column I shows that the proof mark placed it in the early to mid 50's, and that Llama didn't really give this one a distinctive Model number but just called it a Large Frame.
April 18, 2013, 09:27 AM
If I were you I would locate a "buddy" that does have reloading equipment and pull all the baggie rounds and reload with a known powder/charge and have fun. I recently sold a large frame .45ACP by Llama and I ran everything through her and she didn't hiccup once. Very reliable sidearm.
April 18, 2013, 10:48 AM
I was giving thought to having the rounds pulled and use the bullet with a sabot in my BP inline. The 45cal hollow point is just about the same weight to the ones I use now in the BP.
April 18, 2013, 11:56 PM
Sounds like you may have something like this 185gr CBC +P rounds. The "band" in the case is the cannelure to prevent bullet setback. If the primer has the emblem stamp on it as shown its still factory ammo, Go ahead and shoot it.
BTW their 230gr +P JHP doesn't have a case cannelure.