When buying, what exactly is recorded?


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MissouriCrowinMass
April 17, 2013, 09:19 PM
This is probably a dumb question. In Massachusetts, when I buy a gun at an FFL - I must get the FBI Fingerprint Check and fill out the State Form.

What information is recorded by the State and Federal Government and which Agencies stores it? Who traces firearms by serial numbers....the State or the Feds? Just never understood?

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Art Eatman
April 17, 2013, 10:07 PM
I don't know about state record maintenance. Texas and Georgia have none.

Manufacturers report the make/model/serial numbers to BATFE, and I guess the name of the distributor to which they're shipped. Distributors record the data as to which retailer to whom they ship.

An FFL retailer keeps the 4473 in his files.

The FBI's NICS uses your name and address (and if you give your SS #) to check with NCIC to determine if you're a prohibited person. The law says they must delete that information within (IIRC) 24 hours.

abajaj11
April 17, 2013, 10:13 PM
This is probably a dumb question. In Massachusetts, when I buy a gun at an FFL - I must get the FBI Fingerprint Check and fill out the State Form.

What information is recorded by the State and Federal Government and which Agencies stores it? Who traces firearms by serial numbers....the State or the Feds? Just never understood?
Right now, only firearms sold through FFL dealers have to pass a NICs (Form 4473) test in all states, and in some states the state laws mandate that all transfers have to be through an FFL dealer. The feds regulate the FFL dealers and do not keep records of transactions, but the FFL dealers have to. If an FFL dealer goes out of business, those records go to ATF for storage, and are never lost. Now imagine extending this requirement to ALL buyers and sellers of firearms, if a Universal Background checks Bill were passed. Well this is impossible.

So the feds will say, well let us just require all states to do what california, for example, does already. All transfers must go through an FFL. But what to do about the millions of unregistered guns in the USA? How do the feds know who owns them? If they don't know who owns them, how will they verify that ALL guns are being sold after a NICS check? Well, the FEDs will come back and say: "We cannot implement your new law unless you allow us to register all firearms". So the inevitable next step to mandating background check on ALL firearm sales will be a demand to Congress that all firearms be registered, without which the law will be impossible to enforce.

Registration is a VERY bad idea. Registration will not prevent a crime since a legal gun may be stolen and used by a criminal (like in the Newtown case) and of course a criminal will never register an illegitimate gun they may already own.
So, the only reason for registration is keeping tabs on legal gun owners, and if needed, confiscation of firearms.

Since the 2A was written to provide a well regulated (trained) populace that could be stronger than any standing army that a tyrant could raise, the LAST thing the armed populace wants is for potential tyrants to know who has what firearm. That is why this insidious "background checks for all sales" bill MUST be resisted. it will open the door to registration in a year or two.
:)

Dave Workman
April 18, 2013, 12:36 AM
Art Eatman wrote:
The FBI's NICS uses your name and address (and if you give your SS #) to check with NCIC to determine if you're a prohibited person. The law says they must delete that information within (IIRC) 24 hours.

That's right, and it's one thing that really sticks in Schumer's craw. That's one thing he was after with his original bill (that Manchin-Toomey) was supposed to replace.
Schumer wanted record keeping, even by private citizens, which is rather nutty.

One thing that has been lurking in the background for several years with the NICS system is that it "should" open the door for cross-border purchasing of any kind of firearm. After all — and someone correct me if I am wrong here — if Joe Smith can pass a background check at Bob's gun shop in Waco, the same Joe Smith ought to be able to pass a background check at Goober's Guns the next day in Spokane.

It's the same guy, with the same record (or lack thereof) and so forth.

Whaddaya think?

mgkdrgn
April 18, 2013, 03:47 PM
Art Eatman wrote:


That's right, and it's one thing that really sticks in Schumer's craw. That's one thing he was after with his original bill (that Manchin-Toomey) was supposed to replace.
Schumer wanted record keeping, even by private citizens, which is rather nutty.

One thing that has been lurking in the background for several years with the NICS system is that it "should" open the door for cross-border purchasing of any kind of firearm. After all — and someone correct me if I am wrong here — if Joe Smith can pass a background check at Bob's gun shop in Waco, the same Joe Smith ought to be able to pass a background check at Goober's Guns the next day in Spokane.

It's the same guy, with the same record (or lack thereof) and so forth.

Whaddaya think?
But that would make perfect sense and be logical, and we sure as ____ can't have any of that when it comes to guns, now can we?

Alizard
April 18, 2013, 04:28 PM
In Cali, the state keeps the records of gun sales and when they run your record, the info comes up.

Registry of firearm transactions: Current California law requires the Attorney General to maintain a permanent registry of all information pertaining to the sale or transfer of handguns reported to DOJ.8 A law California enacted in 2011 extends this requirement to all firearms, effective January 1, 2014. DOJ may furnish information contained in the DOJ registry, generated by the DROS forms to, inter alia, prosecutors, district attorneys, city attorneys prosecuting civil actions, and law enforcement for use in the arrest and prosecution of criminals

Look up your state here:

http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-retention-of-gun-records/

Dave Workman
April 18, 2013, 06:27 PM
mgkdrgn wrote
But that would make perfect sense and be logical, and we sure as ____ can't have any of that when it comes to guns, now can we?

:banghead:

Well, ya got me there, pard. :D After all the years of working with pols, the ones I can count on to be absolutely straight up are far outnumbered by those who might have a wee bit of trouble in the candor dept.

One guy I really like is Grassley. I've interviewed him two or three times on the phone and he's really down to earth. When I was covering the Fast & Furious debacle, Grassley was accessible, responsive and I have yet to catch him in a B.S. moment. He's the last guy on this planet I'd want to have snooping on me if I was a government official who had screwed up something.

larryh1108
April 18, 2013, 11:05 PM
In CT, all handgun purchases must be registered. An FFL transfer requires you to have a pistol permit or a pistol purchase permit to buy a handgun. Instead of an NICS check, they call the CT state office for approval or denial. If approved, a form is filled out and mailed to the state and to the sheriff of the city where the sale occured. If you have a private FTF sale, you must do the exact same thing. You have to call the state and get an approval number and mail a copy to the state and the sheriff of the town the buyer lives in within 30 days. A while back, I did a FTF and got the approval#. I forgot to mail the forms in and 32 days later I received a letter stating I have to submit it with 48 hours or I will lose my permit.

With the new CT laws, this now applies to long guns and guns with +10 mags and the dreaded "assault rifles" can't be transferred. Records are kept in the state and local offices. Yes, full registration of all purchases and sales. Yes, I will be moving to a better state as soon as possible.

M-Cameron
April 18, 2013, 11:22 PM
in MA, in addition to the federal 4473....you also need to fill out an FA-10 form(this applies to all transfers, not just FFL sales)...

the FA-10 is a "firearm transfer form".....which records the transfer of all firearms from one person to another.

this is essentially a firearms registration.

it records the Name, FID/LTC license number, FFL number, town of the seller. it records the address, FID/LTC license number, name, age, place of birth, weight, ect. of the buyer.

it also records the Serial number, make, model, type of gun, barrel length, caliber, and surface finish

http://www.quaboagsportsmensclub.com/downloads/fa10.pdf

this information is stored by the Firearms Records Bureau......i am assuming they work for/with the State police.

tulsamal
April 19, 2013, 04:40 PM
in MA, in addition to the federal 4473....you also need to fill out an FA-10 form(this applies to all transfers, not just FFL sales)...

This is the state the promotes and celebrates "Patriots Day."

George Orwell would be so proud. Doublespeak lives.

Gregg

M-Cameron
April 19, 2013, 05:33 PM
This is the state the promotes and celebrates "Patriots Day."

George Orwell would be so proud. Doublespeak lives.

Gregg


im pretty sure the Kommonwealth of Mass. is using 1984 as a 'how-to' guide.

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