Wad or...?


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LivewireBlanco
April 18, 2013, 09:39 PM
OK so I'm curious what everyone is using for their black powder revolvers. If you make your own wads or over ball grease please share your recipe!

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Prairie Dawg
April 18, 2013, 09:48 PM
Much of the time I use a felt wad lubed with Gatofeo's lube.
I pick the wads up cheep from tables at cowboy shoots & sometimes off gunbroker or ebay.

Sometimes I use cornmeal over the powder & just pur Gatofeo's lube over the ball.
This is messier, but works well.
--Dawg

Gatofeo's lube (from an old post of his):
Years ago I began posting a bullet, patch and wad lubricant based on a 19th century recipe.
I used more precise ingredients than the 19th century version, which simply listed tallow, paraffin and beeswax.
Without changing the ratio, I began mixing:
1 part canning paraffin.
1 part mutton tallow.
1/2 part beeswax.
All measurements are by weight, NOT volume.
The result is an exceptional black powder lubricant that was later named by others, "Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant."

I use canning paraffin because it's pure. Who knows what lurks in old candles, especially if they're scented. Yes, paraffin is a petroleum product. Yes, petroleum greases and oils will creat a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder. BUT canning paraffin doesn't do this. Long ago, a chemist told me that canning paraffin lacks the offending hydrocarbons.
I don't know about that, but I do know that canning paraffin (used to seal fruit preserves in jars) doesn't create a hard, tarry fouling.

Mutton tallow is needed. I've tried a variety of greases but mutton tallow is clearly superior. I've tried Crisco, and the tallow of beef, chicken, turkey, deer, pig, elk and even bear grease. Not tried moose,though. Or Dodo Bird for that matter ... might be kinda hard to get.
Mutton tallow has long been suggested for black powder lubricant, at least to the mid 1800s.
Canning paraffin is about as pure as you can get. Totally inert too.

Mix together some Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant for yourself. Dixie Gun Works sells mutton tallow at the best price I've found. A little goes a long way.
A hard felt wad soaked in melted Gatofeo No. 1 Lube keeps fouling soft and the bore cleaner than any other lubricant I've tried.
The dry lubricant in commercial wads is the worst, in my experience. Hardly makes a dent in bore fouling.

Make up a batch of Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant for yourself, and see if it doesn't work for you.

Lunie
April 18, 2013, 10:04 PM
I shoot naked, baby.

Wait, I meant with no lube and bare balls.

Oh forget it, you know what I was trying to say. No lube, no wad, and no chain fires (so far).

DMZ
April 18, 2013, 10:09 PM
Johnson's Paste wax over the ball keeps the bore shiny clean.

damoc
April 18, 2013, 10:53 PM
Dude wads are for shotguns an women folk learnin ta shoot

wads take more time to reload cost more money if your buyin them
and generally take up room better suited for the holy black.


my grease mix varies with the season but 60/40 lard beeswax is about right
Ive recently come into some fine tallow and ill probably use that straight.

oh and i dont think wads do as good of a job of keeping things lubricated
and clean.

clean is probably not the right word? working is probably a better word.

snakeman
April 18, 2013, 10:57 PM
Wouldn't using .454 balls seal the chambers enough to prevent chainfires? I'm in the same boat. I have no clue when it comes to b.p. Sorry for the thread hijacking.

damoc
April 18, 2013, 11:02 PM
I think chain fires would be eliminated with good sealing ball MAYBEE

but im not willing to chance it an besides fouling will shut down any
BP revolver thats why I use grease over ball

snakeman
April 18, 2013, 11:08 PM
I would think that grease would attract more dirt. Also, wouldn't the grease melt out if you're carrying the gun around in the texas heat all day during the summer?

BlackNet
April 18, 2013, 11:11 PM
Read some very good info recently, essentially said chain fires is caused from dirty cylinder walls and poorly seating.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html

snakeman
April 18, 2013, 11:14 PM
Alright enough of my thread hijacking I really appreciate the info and please get back to posting your recipes for the op.

BlackNet
April 18, 2013, 11:19 PM
Need nothing other than powder and ball. See link doc :) it's not a mystery it's science.

damoc
April 18, 2013, 11:24 PM
I would think that grease would attract more dirt. Also, wouldn't the grease melt out if you're carrying the gun around in the texas heat all day during the summer?
If i was in the texas heat all day i would adjust my grease mix to suit

I have not had trouble with grease collecting dirt

BlackNet
April 18, 2013, 11:27 PM
'Grease' will *NOT* prevent chain fires. Grease and wads are used for Fouling Management.

damoc
April 18, 2013, 11:28 PM
just an fyi during the depth of winter i was basically using straight lard because it was that cold

damoc
April 18, 2013, 11:34 PM
'Grease' will *NOT* prevent chain fires. Grease and wads are used for Fouling Management.
Im pretty sure it does prevent chainfire blacknet but its probably a mute issue if the ball
has a good tight,clean seal.

but you make a good point fouling is the issue and why we must use something

BlackNet
April 18, 2013, 11:35 PM
READ the link I posted, 3 pages worth. You will see what I am talking about.

44 Dave
April 18, 2013, 11:35 PM
Depends on what I am loading for, to keep under my pillow I use wads. Shoot at a range wads are less mess. Just shooting out of the back door grease is cheapest and keeps the cylinder arbor lubed.

damoc
April 18, 2013, 11:41 PM
READ the link I posted, 3 pages worth. You will see what I am talking about.
I just had a quick look at the first page and its wrong I know from personal expierience

grease in blackpowder shuts it up/stops the fire train real quick.

If I have to explain how i know that im going to look all kinds of stupid take my word
or test it for yourself

BlackNet
April 18, 2013, 11:46 PM
I just had a quick look at the first page and its wrong I know from personal expierience

grease in blackpowder shuts it up/stops the fire train real quick.

If I have to explain how i know that im going to look all kinds of stupid take my word
or test it for yourself

yes explain what you are calling 'grease' also explain how crisco/bees wax/etc will stop the fire train.

BlackNet
April 18, 2013, 11:52 PM
Bottom line is chain fires are caused from:
1. Loose fiting balls.
2. Improperly sealed chambers.
3. Loose caps.

lubes, wads, patches, etc does *NOT* stop chain fires, they just work on fouling.

damoc
April 18, 2013, 11:59 PM
yes explain what you are calling 'grease' also explain how crisco/bees wax/etc will stop the fire train.
by grease I mean lard,beeswax,tallow probably also crisco although I wont use the stuff
for other reasons.

it seems to melt into the power and shuts down the fire thats the best i can explain it

get some black soak it with lard and see how well it burns

it probably also provides a physical barrier but this is secondary

damoc
April 19, 2013, 12:01 AM
Bottom line is chain fires are caused from:
1. Loose fiting balls.
2. Improperly sealed chambers.
3. Loose caps.

lubes, wads, patches, etc does *NOT* stop chain fires, they just work on fouling.
it will help with loose fitting balls or otherwise poorly sealing chambers

BlackNet
April 19, 2013, 12:03 AM
it will help with loose fitting balls or otherwise poorly sealing chambers

lubes etc can and will get burned, they offer *NO* heat, fire retardation or even reduction.

If the lube/grease/what not is mixing with the powder then well obviously and clearly you are puting to much pressure on the load

damoc
April 19, 2013, 12:10 AM
lubes etc can and will get burned, they offer *NO* heat, fire retardation or even reduction.

If the lube/grease/what not is mixing with the powder then well obviously and clearly you are puting to much pressure on the load
got nothing to do with pressure im putting on the load Im not telling my newbie mistake

Im not going to go into the chemistry (even if i knew it) of why it works but the grease
will shut down the fire.

so try it and let me know.

bumble bees are not supposed to be able to fly you know

BlackNet
April 19, 2013, 12:25 AM
got nothing to do with pressure im putting on the load Im not telling my newbie mistake

Im not going to go into the chemistry (even if i knew it) of why it works but the grease
will shut down the fire.

so try it and let me know.

bumble bees are not supposed to be able to fly you know

First bumble bee thing is a gross myth that has been going around for some time, it's simply false.

Second this is what is going on when you fire.
4500 frames per second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6KWxuYv4k4&feature=share&list=UUUUiE_Foh02j0l2kkAUMSWw)

So please explain 'shut down the fire' when a) the fire source is outside of the cylinder and b) powder in the rear of the cylinder gets ignited and runs to the front.

damoc
April 19, 2013, 12:42 AM
First bumble bee thing is a gross myth that has been going around for some time, it's simply false.

Second this is what is going on when you fire.
4500 frames per second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6KWxuYv4k4&feature=share&list=UUUUiE_Foh02j0l2kkAUMSWw)

So please explain 'shut down the fire' when a) the fire source is outside of the cylinder and b) powder in the rear of the cylinder gets ignited and runs to the front.
first what are you talking about powder running to the front?

The fire source is I assume the fired cylinder it spits out all sorts of flaming nasty bits
of black and lead if you dont have grease covering the nearby cyls there is a very small
chance that the nearby cyls could also catch fire (which is generally very very BAD)
the grease prevents this

look like i said test it yourself the grease smothers the fire light a match and stuff it in a pan/pot of lard.

even though lard is flamable chances are the match will be extinguished before the lard
catches fire


well im off to bed after this ill look in on this tomorrow perhaps you will have a chance to test what im saying

BlackNet
April 19, 2013, 12:48 AM
The fire source is I assume the fired cylinder it spits out all sorts of flaming nasty bits
of black and lead if you dont have grease covering the nearby cyls there is a very small
chance that the nearby cyls could also catch fire (which is generally very very BAD)
the grease prevents this


incorrect, grease on the OUTSIDE will become problematic.

Any "lube" you put up there will just make the top of your cylinder sticky thus attracting grains of powder when you reload and it is loose powder grains that are responsible for the vast majority of chain fires.

Mr Woody
April 19, 2013, 08:53 AM
An over sized ball is the answer I picked but most of the time I do use lube over the ball, but that is for fouling not chain fire

BullRunBear
April 19, 2013, 09:20 AM
I use the Gatofeo lube recipe with wads I punch out myself. Compared to commercial wads mine cost a few pennies on the dollar. But they are for lubrication and I don't mind the slight extra time it takes to seat them. To prevent chain fire I rely on proper ball diameter and correctly fitting caps. In thousands of rounds I've never had a chain fire.

I use the same felt wads in 45 Colt and 45-70 BP cartridges.

Jeff

rodwha
April 19, 2013, 10:43 AM
I make my own wads and use the Gatofeo recipe.

I have since quit using them as I have been using Triple 7 and not having a problem with fouling using my Ruger Old Army. Even when using Pyrodex I didn't seem to have a problem in 50 shots or so. But maybe that's also due to the design.

I will sometimes use a wad instead of filler when loading lighter loads, and if it's to possibly sit for an extended period of time it's dry as I'm not sure if the lube will contaminate the powder or not.

I use the Gatofeo lube on my bullets too...

Lunie
April 19, 2013, 11:23 AM
Anyone using just a "lube cookie"?

Just curious.

Fingers McGee
April 19, 2013, 11:59 AM
Buy my lubed wads in bulk (3 or 4 thousand at a time) so the cost is kept to a minimum. Tried punching and lubing my own; but was too much trouble ( I freely admit that I'm lazy). Grease/lube/lard/whatever over the ball is messier than I care to deal with. Don't get me started on chainfires. Lubed wads used in Colt style revolvers with plenty of lube on the arbor will keep the revolver running smoothly for 100+ rounds - depending on weather conditions. If it's hot and dry, no matter how much or type lube you use, you will have trouble after about 50 rounds - sometimes less.

loose noose
April 19, 2013, 12:39 PM
Bought a large supply of Wonder Wads a few years ago, no chain fires, and reloads come quickly like in CAS shooting. I'm a bit lazy in my old age also, as I've also got the punch and the felt.:)

LivewireBlanco
April 19, 2013, 03:31 PM
Wow! I was thinking there would be a lot more grease over ball users than what the poll shows. Clearly wads are winning but next is nothing at all!:eek:

rodinal220
April 19, 2013, 07:01 PM
Gatofeo#1 lube!!!

http://www.durofelt.com/

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=l8q48ucjq1gsjjbg02bs0v11b6&keywords=mutton

4v50 Gary
April 19, 2013, 07:11 PM
Grease, ball, cornmeal or farina (got a lot of old racid stuff) and then powder.

davepool
April 19, 2013, 08:21 PM
Ox yoke wonder wads and Ox yoke wonder seals....but i'm new to BP shooting so i haven't started spairamintin yet.

towboat_er
April 19, 2013, 11:26 PM
Yep. I use lube pills. Or lube cookies. Consist of toilet bowl wax ring, parrafin and olive oil.

Plastikosmd
April 20, 2013, 02:20 AM
I put grease on for lube. I think a proper fitting cap and ball (shave ring and a ball that doesn't creep out with firing( grips walls)) is my best protection. Another short read
http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=13

BlackNet
April 20, 2013, 02:35 AM
Just found this.

http://youtu.be/HOGUrlfSNyU

http://youtu.be/Um9Eos9bJDk

These 2 are i slow motion.

This one is open burn of powder, watch how it moves in side the tube.
http://youtu.be/-kGvW0nvifg

drjohn
April 20, 2013, 06:21 AM
I’m new to c p revolvers, my history is cap Kentucky and flint tower musket pistol. So I’ve been playing with a recipe for lubed wads. I read a lot of ya all’s posted recipes and am liking one using two parts Manteca lard, one part paraffin wax and enough colored candle wax to tag the recipe, and good measure of hand soap shaved up with a cheese grater. All this pourd melted over cotton cosmetic pads from the dollar store, 88 for a buck and I get 12 .50 cal was out of each pad. The soap shavings do seem to make cleaning easier later and also seems to keep the wads firm. All this is by eye ball measurement. I guess that after 30 years with that musket I figure that often times consistency doesn’t necessarily mean exact.

By the way Blacknet is right the charge does burn back to front. The burning sludge you spit out the muzzle is overcharge ie wasted powder, no good just mess, and dammed hard on your frizzen spring too.

Hellgate
April 20, 2013, 12:04 PM
Blacknet,
That first you tube vid shows the hammer jump back after first hitting the cap indicating early pressure buildup pushing the hammer back. That is where a lot of cap jams occur when the cap is forced back with the hammer and then jams up the works especially in open tops.

BlackNet
April 20, 2013, 06:10 PM
Indeed so.

If you want to see some hard core pushback from a percussion cap watch this video.

http://youtu.be/I6KWxuYv4k4

madcratebuilder
April 22, 2013, 07:59 AM
'Grease' will *NOT* prevent chain fires. Grease and wads are used for Fouling Management.
Correct answer!

Chain fires are most often a result of improperly fitted caps. Colt wrote about this 160 years ago... I know cause he borrowed my pen;)

The chamber is sealed when you shave lead seating the ball. Out of round chambers or chambers with wall imperfections may cause a chain fire.

Lube is to keep fouling soft.

ClemBert
April 22, 2013, 10:48 AM
Here's the recipe for cheap felt wads: Do-It-Yourself Felt Wad Making (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=643854)

Why use grease over the ball. Grease is fer the wimmens to do their cookin' fer me. :neener:

GCBurner
April 22, 2013, 01:38 PM
Crisco Vegetable Shortening actually works as well as any of the expensive, special-purpose lubes for use over the ball.

kituwa
April 22, 2013, 05:11 PM
I am convinced that most chain fires do not come from lack of grease or wad.They come from nipples that are too long and alow the caps to slam back into the recoil shield or from caps that do not fit right and fall off without you knowing it.Even if you have the proper size nipples for your gun if they have been peened from dry fireing then the caps may not be able to seat on them right causeing them to again be slammed into the recoil shield.Most of the imports we buy today are a lot better put together than they used to be.In the past i have seen brand new guns come with diffrent sized nipples on the same gun.

damoc
April 22, 2013, 07:06 PM
Correct answer!

Chain fires are most often a result of improperly fitted caps. Colt wrote about this 160 years ago... I know cause he borrowed my pen;)

The chamber is sealed when you shave lead seating the ball. Out of round chambers or chambers with wall imperfections may cause a chain fire.

Lube is to keep fouling soft.
So question if you have a bad chamber or out of round ball or load up some balls that dont shave a good ring is there a chance that you could get a chainfire through the front of the cyl?

answer = yes

a little note as an aside most purchased balls are amazingly perfect but i bet there is
more than few casters here who have had flat spots or even cracks (from too cool lead or bad mix) and im sure some of these find there way into our revolvers.

so now if you agree with the first part im telling you 100% that grease over the ball WILL prevent at least this cause of chain fire.

And i dont care what Colt wrote with your pen LOL :D the colt design seems at least to me to be more problematic with caps anyway.:neener:

BlackNet
April 22, 2013, 09:37 PM
So question if you have a bad chamber or out of round ball or load up some balls that dont shave a good ring is there a chance that you could get a chainfire through the front of the cyl?

answer = yes

a little note as an aside most purchased balls are amazingly perfect but i bet there is
more than few casters here who have had flat spots or even cracks (from too cool lead or bad mix) and im sure some of these find there way into our revolvers.

so now if you agree with the first part im telling you 100% that grease over the ball WILL prevent at least this cause of chain fire.

And i dont care what Colt wrote with your pen LOL the colt design seems at least to me to be more problematic with caps anyway.

A few things worth of note here.

A) If you pack the cylinder with grease then each and every time you fire that will cause other slots to heat up and it WILL vaporize the grease.

B) The purpose of firing caps ONLY is to CLEAN grease, oil and the like from the nipples and cylinder. <<<-----

C) Chain fires, Misfires, Cross fires whatever you call them can and will happen on BOTH ends of the cylinder. Just watch one of the video's I posted to see why that is the case. The #1 cause on the nipple side is poor fit; on the other side is because the cylinder WALLS = DIRTY. If you are crunching powder between the ball and the walls then guess what will happen.

D) Using grease/oil/lube/what not you have a GREATER chance of it attracting powder. Do this, put some dye in the lube. One cylinder put it UNDER the ball, the next cylinder put it OVER the lube. Fire the other cylinders first and save those 2 for last. Then look for the dye marks on the revolver.

damoc
April 22, 2013, 10:51 PM
A few things worth of note here.

A) If you pack the cylinder with grease then each and every time you fire that will cause other slots to heat up and it WILL vaporize the grease.

B) The purpose of firing caps ONLY is to CLEAN grease, oil and the like from the nipples and cylinder. <<<-----

C) Chain fires, Misfires, Cross fires whatever you call them can and will happen on BOTH ends of the cylinder. Just watch one of the video's I posted to see why that is the case. The #1 cause on the nipple side is poor fit; on the other side is because the cylinder WALLS = DIRTY. If you are crunching powder between the ball and the walls then guess what will happen.

D) Using grease/oil/lube/what not you have a GREATER chance of it attracting powder. Do this, put some dye in the lube. One cylinder put it UNDER the ball, the next cylinder put it OVER the lube. Fire the other cylinders first and save those 2 for last. Then look for the dye marks on the revolver.
There may be a small amount vaporised but it is inconsequencial a larger amount is moved from the blast leaking from the cyl gap but this is also of little concern you can
fire 5 out of 6 shots and still have plenty of grease left over in the final chamber.
(unless maybee you are using a bad choice of lube/grease)

UMM why bother to clean grease out of the nipples and chambers if it does not inhibit
the burning of the power???

There is no argument from me about there being other causes of chain fire/cross fire
my only argument is that grease over the ball does prevent chain fire starting from the front of the cyl.

I have not noticed any large amounts of powder buildup in the grease and even if it does
that is good because powder lodged in grease has had its burning inhibited even completely stopped in many cases.

kituwa
April 22, 2013, 11:27 PM
I can see that there are good arguments both for and against useing grease on top of the ball. I have stopped useing it on top, i only use it on a felt wad under the ball now mostly because it works well for me and is not nearly as messy.Has anyone ever read that grease was used over the ball or conicals back in the 1800's?Did the paper cartridges even use lube in the bullet grooves used in the civil war?I have always just assumed the conicals were lubed only because they did have lube grooves but i dont know one way or the other.

Lunie
April 23, 2013, 09:10 PM
Crisco Vegetable Shortening actually works as well as any of the expensive, special-purpose lubes for use over the ball.
I prefer to use air on top of the balls. Much less messy, and infinitely less expensive than even Crisco.

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