If Background Checks Are To Determine Eligibility, Why Do They Need…


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2@low8
April 19, 2013, 10:21 PM
If background checks are to determine eligibility, why do they need any information on the firearm other than if it‘s a handgun or long gun due to age restrictions and number purchased on handguns?

Or maybe I should ask, ”What is their excuse (other than the obvious) to have all that specific info on make, model, caliber and serial number?”

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cfullgraf
April 19, 2013, 10:27 PM
It does not have to do with guns. It has to do with control.

buckeye8
April 19, 2013, 10:32 PM
I am not an expert, but the extra information you refer to is kept on file, not run through the NICS system. It is kept on file at the gun shop for the police to use in case there is ever an investigation in which it becomes necessary to establish chain of custody for the gun in question.

I'm not sure how often this information is actually useful in a court of law, and can't imagine many circumstances in which it is a critical piece of evidence.

The_Next_Generation
April 19, 2013, 10:53 PM
Don't they call in the S/N for the NICS check?

788Ham
April 19, 2013, 11:07 PM
Yes, but the S/N isn't all the info they want, they want it all..... why do you think Barry is so insulted when they ask about his birth certificate? :D

cwo2lt
April 19, 2013, 11:29 PM
If background checks are to determine eligibility, why do they need any information on the firearm other than if it‘s a handgun or long gun due to age restrictions and number purchased on handguns?

Or maybe I should ask, ”What is their excuse (other than the obvious) to have all that specific info on make, model, caliber and serial number?”
You're just not a team player are you? LOL

vamo
April 19, 2013, 11:33 PM
Its a leftover from when handguns were the evil weapon of choice rather than "assault rifles".

Hardtarget
April 19, 2013, 11:53 PM
Went through this with a co-worker today. He couldn't understand the vote against background checks.

I said "its not against background checks...its FOR the constitution." I pointed out how the "antis" never say enough. The always come back for just one more "common sense" law that EVERY logical citizen wants. They always have one more reason to chip away at the second amendment.

I asked him how come twenty mis-fits commit crimes and the antis want a series of laws that hammer the rights of 100 million of us just because we own a firearm. Did I forget to mention...he owns several guns.

I think he finally decided to give up for the day. I don't think I made any real headway at changing his thoughts on this. Maybe I just planted a seed.

Mark

gbran
April 20, 2013, 12:28 AM
It's a long sought goal of the gun grabbers to repeal the Tihart amendment. If repealed, our current system morfs into instant registration, almost without modification.

newfalguy101
April 20, 2013, 12:30 AM
Don't they call in the S/N for the NICS check?
NOPE!!!!

Just Longgun, handgun or OTHER

NO caliber or ANY actual identifying info on the firearm

gunnutery
April 20, 2013, 12:35 AM
They "need" to check our eligability in the first place because they assume we're all criminals to begin with. If that's the way it starts out, they're going to want to know everything. They may do it in the guise of stats to have an idea of how much of certain types of guns are out there. Which is just bull of course, the manufacturers could probably tell us that.

gunnutery
April 20, 2013, 12:39 AM
Newfallguy, I just saw your post after I posted. Theyre not supposed to be asking for all the info but I've been reading on THR more often that the information is being sent with the check. Maybe it depends on who answers the phone.

Twiki357
April 20, 2013, 01:13 AM
Back to the OP's question. To the best of my knowledge, there is no identifying info on the gun being purchased, only handgun, rifle or shotgun. The only gun information that's provided is if there are multiple guns purchased within a five day period. Which, as far as I'm concerned is just plain wrong.

And, as far as I know, the background check isn't to see if your eligible, it's to determine if your prohibited. Their database, supposedly, contains those with criminal records, mental deficiencies, etc.

2@low8
April 20, 2013, 05:07 AM
And, as far as I know, the background check isn't to see if your eligible, it's to determine if your prohibited.

Semantics. You are splitting hairs. If I’m not prohibited then I’m eligible.

Back to the OP's question. To the best of my knowledge, there is no identifying info on the gun being purchased, only handgun, rifle or shotgun.

I hear you. I also heard the seller give make, model, serial number and caliber of a lower AR pistol receiver I bought over the phone on a NICS check while we were sitting face to face at a gun show. I didn’t question it because I thought it was normal procedure.

While I was a LEO I had a Fed show up at my door questioning my purchase of a Mark X rifle that I bought. He told me a Federal judge was murdered with that particular rifle in my caliber and they were running down all leads. This occurred two days after the murder. I was amazed at the rapidity of their collecting all that info, assigning it to field agents and culminating with a knock at my door. It makes me wonder just where all that info is stored???

tarosean
April 20, 2013, 05:39 AM
I've never seen the firearm info submitted to NICS.

2@low8
April 20, 2013, 05:49 AM
I've never seen the firearm info submitted to NICS.

I’ve never seen it either. I only heard it. Perhaps the person on the other end of the phone line was just being polite and not writing it down...there's no way I will ever know.

newfalguy101
April 20, 2013, 07:03 AM
Newfallguy, I just saw your post after I posted. Theyre not supposed to be asking for all the info but I've been reading on THR more often that the information is being sent with the check. Maybe it depends on who answers the phone.
Some states us a State check in place of the NICS.

NICS operators have a script they follow, and in my experience DO NOT go off script, not even for something as small as answering the question "how are you today"

The NICS is on the individual, not the firearm, the FBI NICS phone center couldnt care less what kind of gun is being transferred, only what type ( long, hand, other )

newfalguy101
April 20, 2013, 07:06 AM
2@low8, what state are you in??

Sam1911
April 20, 2013, 07:48 AM
The FEDERAL NICS check only ask "Handgun, Long gun, or Other." Why it really matters is questionable, except that one factor MAY be that you cannot have a handgun or "other" transferred to you if you're outside your home state. Whether NICS can flag that or not, I'm really not sure.

When your NICS check passes, the record of that call is deleted at the close of business at NICS that day.


Some of the states (like TN, for example) have a more extensive questionnaire and they ask for lots of other information.

Here's a thread on that: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=704327

You'd really have to contact your STATE to find out why they want all that info and whether they keep it on file somewhere.

Carl N. Brown
April 20, 2013, 07:51 AM
What I have heard is a description of the person and a description of the gun; in Tennessee the background check is routed through the state bureau of investigation replacing the paper Tennessee Application for Permission to Purchase which had to be hand carried to either the county sheriff or city police chief. The TICS description may be unusually detailed. Federally the NICS check is the person's ID and the type of firearm, long gun or handgun or other firearm.

The 4473 dealer transaction record (required by law since the 1968 Gun Control Act) is the detail record of ID by name, address, etc and gun by make, model, serial number, caliber and type. The 4473 is not the NICS background check, which is a seperate requiremant added to gun sales by the 1993 Brady Act. Until Nov 1998 when the NICS system was operational, the background checks had to be done locally within a waiting period.

NICS background check is to assure that government records show that the purchaser has answered the 4473 Questions 11(b) - 11(l) accurately. The 4473 is supposed to be the only record kept on the sale, and the fact you passed an NICS check is not supposed to be recorded at the FBI. If you fail an NICS check, the record may be kept longer.

The anti-gunners however want the NICS to become a national gun registry: "The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one." -- Katherine Eban, "The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal", Fortune, 27 Jun 2012. I always find someway of renewing my NRA memebership, even if it means putting off a bill and paying a late fee.

The purpose of the so-called Universal Background Check was to set up permanent records keeping on the buyer, seller and the gun. It pays to pay attention: we narrowly averted a national registry. New Zealand repealed their national registry in 1983, and Canada repealed their long gun registry in 2012, as a waste of resources: keeping records on the law-abiding does not help control criminal behavior.

sota
April 20, 2013, 07:56 AM
I can say that the last purchase I made my FFL could not have provided specifics about the firearm in question... as I didn't KNOW the serial number yet. It was still in transit to him.

Zoogster
April 20, 2013, 08:19 AM
Those behind most legislation want a national registry and they want to reduce ownership.

Some states have universal background checks. I am in one of them. There is no private sales or transfers. All transfers must go through an FFL, except to child or grandchild and those need what is essentially a registration form sent in.

The result is it is essentially a crime to have guns you are not on record as purchasing, and almost not have guns you are on record as purchasing.
There was some extra like those owned before various dates, long guns, etc
They have passed legislation registering all long guns transferred by 2014 too. And all people entering the state will need to register and pay for each gun they bring.


You have FFL transfer fees. In addition to the cost of the gun, you get to pay a third party money just to transfer your property.
Because going through an FFL is a requirement you don't get to opt out of such fees.
Perhaps not a big deal on more expensive purchases, but on $100-$200 guns having to pay another $35, plus gas, plus purchaser wait 10 day waiting period to even test out the used property...


And they don't stop, its never enough, they want to expand it, and do. They make programs to use such registries, now they have the automated computer system that red flags you if you get prohibited and results in a team of armed cops showing up well funded.
At the same time various legislators at the state level propose and pass legislation to add to the list of misdemeanors and other offenses to make someone prohibited.

It is a nightmare, they are emboldened and only get worse once they have a better idea of where every gun is. That starts with a requirement for paperwork on every single transfer.


As for the extra information on a 4473:
It is retained by the store and if a gun turns up it is traced from manufacturer, to distributor and retail location, and then they use the 4473 to determine who it was sold to from there.
So if they get a serial number they can determine who is on the 4473 for that firearm.
It is still an obvious risk, and often ends up filed away with the ATF for future use. Something mandated if the business goes out of business within 20 years, and many do. Also records may be taken during various investigations leading up to that, and some stores and chains create thier own electronic databases of customers data, which in investigations large portions or the entire database of customers may be copied and retained in mass by ATF etc even more readily than the paper 4473.

However because of private transfers even that information if gathered is still not a reliable registry in states that allow them. Because in such states without a required background check those on file as purchasing a gun 10 years prior may not have that gun, and don't have to answer to anyone for it as it was perfectly legal to sell it without involving government.
While in places requiring government permission, aka background check, every transfer should have a record and tracking down all legal guns or punishing those that cannot account for them is easier.
(They also add requirements to report lost or stolen guns in 2-3 days in places to add an extra punishment for those that try to say they had a 'boating accident' as the common expression goes. If they come for the guns you could legally only claim to have lost them within a couple days, or have committed a crime, and you are unlikely to have lost them right as they decided to show interest or want them and such a claim would be unbelieved and may even amount to probable cause to some.)

gtb
April 20, 2013, 11:29 AM
Semantics. You are splitting hairs. If I’m not prohibited then I’m eligible.



I hear you. I also heard the seller give make, model, serial number and caliber of a lower AR pistol receiver I bought over the phone on a NICS check while we were sitting face to face at a gun show. I didn’t question it because I thought it was normal procedure.

While I was a LEO I had a Fed show up at my door questioning my purchase of a Mark X rifle that I bought. He told me a Federal judge was murdered with that particular rifle in my caliber and they were running down all leads. This occurred two days after the murder. I was amazed at the rapidity of their collecting all that info, assigning it to field agents and culminating with a knock at my door. It makes me wonder just where all that info is stored???
How did they know what particular rifle was used in the crime?

TRX
April 20, 2013, 03:30 PM
> Maybe I just planted a seed.

I've found enticing them to a safe shooting place and letting them blast hot lead downrange has very high success rate.

Last anti I did that to has about a dozen guns and a CCW now...

I guess once you get "gun cooties" they're hard to scrub off.

2@low8
April 20, 2013, 03:46 PM
gtb - How did they know what particular rifle was used in the crime?

I asked that question and the stock response I got was, “This is an ongoing investigation and I’m not permitted to give out that information.” How about that… nipped (not really bitten) in the butt by a fellow LEO!

I understood that, of course, and nothing further came of it. What I did find unusal was that he never even asked to see it. I suspect that they already had a profile of the owner in mind and I didn't fit it.

Gallstones
April 20, 2013, 04:29 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8882971&postcount=20

Thank you Carl, that was very informative.

hso
April 20, 2013, 04:37 PM
I had a Fed show up at my door questioning my purchase of a Mark X rifle that I bought. He told me a Federal judge was murdered with that particular rifle in my caliber and they were running down all leads. This occurred two days after the murder. I was amazed at the rapidity of their collecting all that info, assigning it to field agents and culminating with a knock at my door.

There's no central database with the info, if the murder was local they just did the police legwork to check local FFLs and ask them to check their "bound book" for who bought that type rifle. They took that information and then checked on the buyers. Simple investigative police work.

2@low8
April 20, 2013, 06:54 PM
Simple investigative police work.

At the time I was living in an area of 3 million people in a gun-friendly state with a very large number of gun stores. For the Feds to physically go to every one of them, individually sort through every bound book, assemble the data, assign it to an agent then proceed down the list would be a monumental task. The knock at my door awoke me in the late morning hours (my patrol shift began at 6 PM) ,so they only had approximately a day to get to me. Again, my amazement was at the rapidity of investigation ending up at my doorstep and not the complexity of the investigation.

A few years later I had an FFL and was visited by an agent looking for a particular firearm. They don't ask you to look up anything; they do it themselves (as I would to assure accuracy), so I wouldn't expect a phone call from the Feds asking for your assistance to save them some time

offcenter
April 20, 2013, 09:07 PM
Remember the new phrase is record keeping not registration.

Old Fuff
April 21, 2013, 12:12 AM
Toward the end of a NICS check the operator gives a number to the dealer who must enter it on the 4473 form. I've been told the purpose is to show that the dealer did indeed make the check.

But if the number is a random one, what is supposed to stop the dealer from putting down his own number? Especially if the results are destroyed after 48 hours? My Daddy would have kicked my butt if I told him I believed any of this.

Meanwhile we are being told that they're is no connection between the background check and 4473 form.

newfalguy101
April 21, 2013, 08:43 AM
Toward the end of a NICS check the operator gives a number to the dealer who must enter it on the 4473 form. I've been told the purpose is to show that the dealer did indeed make the check.

But if the number is a random one, what is supposed to stop the dealer from putting down his own number? Especially if the results are destroyed after 48 hours? My Daddy would have kicked my butt if I told him I believed any of this.

Meanwhile we are being told that they're is no connection between the background check and 4473 form.
Keep in mind there are three possible NICS results.

Proceed

Denied

Delayed

The transaction number is needed in the event of a delay or denial.

On a delay, I wait and call in again, at which point I give the transaction number to the operator, who gives me the current disposition which will be either, Proceed, denied, or still in delay.

NICS DOES keep the trans numbers, its the INFO accociated with those numbers that is deleted upon final disposition

Old Fuff
April 21, 2013, 10:56 AM
NICS DOES keep the trans numbers, its the INFO associated with those numbers that is deleted upon final disposition

Supposedly... :uhoh:

dogtown tom
April 21, 2013, 08:18 PM
Old Fuff.....But if the number is a random one, what is supposed to stop the dealer from putting down his own number? Especially if the results are destroyed after 48 hours?
Your first assumption is wrong......it's not a random number but a sequential one.
Second, NICS transactions that result in a "proceed" are deleted at the end of the FBI NICS business day, not 48 hours. If the transaction is a "delay" it is held until the transaction gets a proceed. If the transaction result is a "deny" it is stored permanently.

What stops a dealer from inventing his own NTN?........loss of FFL, fines and imprisonment for starters.

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