Using fast rifle powders in pistol calibers?


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mwsenoj
April 21, 2013, 02:02 AM
I have some Win 748 and H335 for my 223 loading. I don't have any slow pistol powder currently. Does anyone have any if (and then where) I might start out playing with these in any of my pistol calibers? (40S&W, 38sp/357, 44mag) I am most interested in trying it in my 40 since I have a a ported bbl that does not help much with bullseye loads, but it'd be nice to be able to use it in some slow burning loads for the revolver rounds. I don't really care if it is optimal, just that it won't KB :)

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gamestalker
April 21, 2013, 02:17 AM
No, you can't use those two powders for the pistol cartridges you mentioned. In fact most rifle powders will not be used in a straight wall case, they are generally two completely different beasts. Those type of powders are meant to operate at much higher pressures than is feasible achieve in a case designed to operate in the 20K - 30k range such as .40, .357 mag., and 44 mag. are. .223 operates at 50K+, so go find someone that will buy it, or try to trade with some buddies for some pistol powders.

GS

Arkansas Paul
April 21, 2013, 02:18 AM
Sounds like a terrible idea to me.
Just saying.

mwsenoj
April 21, 2013, 02:42 AM
Seems a clear answer has been had. Just searched the next question, but found nothing, what's the slowest powder I can use in my 40?

Arkansas Paul
April 21, 2013, 02:53 AM
Look in your manual. The powders are generally listed from fastest to slowest. Look at the bottom one, that's the slowest you need to use.

It will vary depending on the bullet weight.

gamestalker
April 21, 2013, 03:08 AM
Generally speaking, you aren't able to use one powder for both applications, (bottle neck and straight wall). Look through some published data and pick a slow burning powder for the cartridge you want to load.
Take H110 or 296 for instance, they would be considered a very slow burning powder for .357 mag or 44 mag., but you can't use them in .40 S&W at all, too slow of a powder for that cartridge. You could use something like Longshot or HS6 for both, but it wouldn't be a very slow burning powder for the revolver cartridges, though it would work.
Do some studying and learn the application properties of reloading in general. You've got some reading to do. You can get hurt in this hobby if you get complacent.

GS

mwsenoj
April 21, 2013, 03:36 AM
Look in your manual. The powders are generally listed from fastest to slowest. Look at the bottom one, that's the slowest you need to use.

It will vary depending on the bullet weight.

First, thank you for the replies :)

I am aware that the slowest powder in my Hornady reloading manual is probably reloader 9. I am an hour from the nearest shop that carries powder and am not going to pay haz for a pound of powder. I also know that the published data is "what works best" or optimal loads. I wouldn't care if it was suboptimal though I just need it to be safe and faster than 700 fps, not necessarily published. (The true story here is I want to load a round that will justify my keeping the ported lone wolf bbl that shows no improvement with my bullseye powder :|

ArchAngelCD
April 21, 2013, 06:33 AM
Seems a clear answer has been had. Just searched the next question, but found nothing, what's the slowest powder I can use in my 40?
While AA#9 is listed as a powder chat can be used in the 40 S&W IMO it's too slow a powder unless it's all you have or can buy. Powders like AA#7, Longshot, AutoComp, HS-6, HS-7 and the like are usually the slower powders suitable for the 40 S&W. You can go faster too and use powders in the W231/HP-38 burn rate range and achieve very good results.

243winxb
April 21, 2013, 09:35 AM
Data can be found here. http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm If a powder has or had data, its here. Alliant 2400?

kingmt
April 21, 2013, 09:49 AM
You could probably fill the case & stuff a bullet in it. It would probably even get the bullet down range. It is going to leave a mess of unburnt powder tho I'm almost sure.

Walkalong
April 21, 2013, 10:06 AM
There is no rifle powder suitable for .40 S&W. Even the fastest ones are way to slow for .40.

kingmt
April 21, 2013, 10:44 AM
I don't load for the 40 but would 2400 not work?

Arkansas Paul
April 21, 2013, 10:49 AM
I am an hour from the nearest shop that carries powder and am not going to pay haz for a pound of powder.

Instead you're going to experiment with a controlled explosion in your hand. It just doesn't make sense to me. There is no sane reason for trying unpublished and potentially unsafe loads to avoid driving an hour, or to save $25.

Hell, make a day of it. Take the significant other with you, have lunch and drop by the shop to get the powder.

Arkansas Paul
April 21, 2013, 10:54 AM
I don't load for the 40 but would 2400 not work?

WAY too slow.
Even Blue Dot results in a lot of unburned powder in the .40 and 2400 is quite a bit slower than BD.

Grumulkin
April 21, 2013, 11:25 AM
Actually, I use Blue Dot in a 40 S&W and it works well with no excessive powder residue.

I have, in the past, ventured to use rifle powders in handgun cartridges but ONLY in pretty strong guns. I would never do such experimentation in any semiauto out there and would never recommend such experimentation to any but a very experienced handloader.

kingmt
April 21, 2013, 11:47 AM
There would be less danger in using rifle powder in the 40 then using tight group but I agree handloading needs reloading experience.

buck460XVR
April 21, 2013, 12:05 PM
There is no sane reason for trying unpublished and potentially unsafe loads to avoid driving an hour, or to save $25.



Exactly. During this last buying frenzy/shortage, getting powder, any powder has been nearly impossible. This has led to numerous threads of this same nature, asking if one could somehow use an unsuitable powder in a application, just so they can make their gun go boom. Truth is, anything is possible. It's your gun and your safety. If this is a worst case scenario and one needs to take the risk to avoid starving or loss of life, it's one thing. But to waste the time, money and effort to find a suitable load, when it probably isn't possible with the components at hand, is another. Powder is generally the cheapest component in rollin' your own. Why folks insist on savin' a few bucks on a powder, to use relatively expensive primers to throw good bullets downrange
in a load that performs poorly, has always been a mystery to me.

BullfrogKen
April 21, 2013, 02:28 PM
^^^^^


No kidding.


But I'm not sure if it's no much saving a buck or two as it is people who decided to start reloading after Sandy Hook and the ammo famine. Might not be the case here. But with bullets being just as hard to find as powder, I have a tough time understanding why someone would waste either just to make a gun go bang.

oldpapps
April 21, 2013, 02:51 PM
Most all things are possible. It becomes a matter of just how useful the results may be.

I suspect that given enough time (and stupidity) one could load a fire-able casing with methane gas (nice way to say farts) but I don't think it would be very functional in the long run.

With the fastest burn rate/pressure curved 'rifle' powder, I just don't see a positive function in a 40 S&W. For the listed powders, they too are not likely to do well in the .44 (the most voluminous of the casings listed).

Good thought. Just not practical. Maybe try black powder.....

DC Plumber
April 21, 2013, 04:48 PM
My buddy tried some H4895 in his S&W 500, which is a great straight walled rifle powder. I use it in my 458winmag. His results were dismal. It was a low report, low velocity load probably with lots of unburned powder. Now, if the end of the world was coming and he had to shoot to survive, I'd say, go with it. But it's not a good practice when we're talking hobbies here, not survival.

kingmt
April 21, 2013, 10:12 PM
Most all things are possible. It becomes a matter of just how useful the results may be.

I suspect that given enough time (and stupidity) one could load a fire-able casing with methane gas (nice way to say farts) but I don't think it would be very functional in the long run.

With the fastest burn rate/pressure curved 'rifle' powder, I just don't see a positive function in a 40 S&W. For the listed powders, they too are not likely to do well in the .44 (the most voluminous of the casings listed).

Good thought. Just not practical. Maybe try black powder.....

What we usually call rifle powder has a slower burn rate. What we usually call pistol powder has a faster burn rate. Truth is it is just powder of a cretin burn rate.

243winxb
April 21, 2013, 11:46 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=162904&stc=1&d=1334703354 Loads for the 40 S&W are available using heavy bullets closer to 200gr. The 10mm uses 2400 also. Great for the 357 mag. Works in the 44 mag also. 2400 not the perfect powder, but may be usable? :uhoh:

jmorris
April 22, 2013, 09:53 AM
I have used smokeless pistol powders for rifle loads before but never the other way around

bigdaa
April 22, 2013, 10:53 AM
In 33 years of loading I have never considered running pistol powder in rifles or vice versa. I mean why? Unless you are a balistician and have the equipment for the dynamic measurements and forgot your tenets of reloading completely, like said before, don't do it. You are messing with things way beyond your comprehension and the rewards do not justify the potential disaster.


I suggest you put aside the desire to shoot the 40 for now and see what comes along (as in a trade suggested earlier or a trip by a few shops while out of town)

Heck, if we were close I'd give you a half pound of powder for free.

Experimentation in powders/cases/firearms is best left to the pros and wildcatters. Hang tite and you'll find a good pistol powder.

jmorris
April 22, 2013, 12:04 PM
Some rifle rounds like 458 socom not only use pistol powders but pistol primers too. Subsonic rifle loads often use pistol powders like Trailboss.

I guess I can say I use rifle powders in pistols like my 7mm BR XP-100 and contenders but that is not what the op was asking about.

bigdaa
April 22, 2013, 12:23 PM
Some rifle rounds like 458 socom not only use pistol powders but pistol primers too. Subsonic rifle loads often use pistol powders like Trailboss.

I guess I can say I use rifle powders in pistols like my 7mm BR XP-100 and contenders but that is not what the op was asking about.
These loads you speak of were developed professionally in controlled ballistic labs and not in ones home or garage.

I guess what I am stressing above all is following safe practice and recommendations is not only prudent but life securing.

Because one has a rifle powder and no pistol powder is no reason to play alchemist, and I mean this with no harm or disregard for a fellow site member.

I learned early to follow rules and recs and to err on the safe side and to teach others the same. It makes sense, doesn't it?




BTW mwsenoj, what desert do you live in. Maybe you are my way sometime and I can make good on getting you a half pound of powder to generate a couple of hundred rounds or so.

Searcher4851
April 22, 2013, 01:01 PM
Although it is not uncommon for some to use pistol powders in rifle cartridges, the reverse is not recommended. I don't know of anyone who has done so successfully.

mtrmn
April 22, 2013, 11:02 PM
To the OP's question-no. Just.....no.

I damshore don't want to be a witness when you touch one of those rounds off.

Eb1
April 22, 2013, 11:26 PM
55 mph seems like the speed you need to meet to me, and just go get the correct powder for the application.

zxcvbob
April 22, 2013, 11:48 PM
Seems a clear answer has been had. Just searched the next question, but found nothing, what's the slowest powder I can use in my 40?


Probably something like 800X. AA#7 will be a lot easier to live with, unless you just *want* to weight every charge.

Lj1941
April 23, 2013, 11:38 AM
Trail
Boss?

jmorris
April 23, 2013, 02:13 PM
These loads you speak of were developed professionally in controlled ballistic labs and not in ones home or garage.


Almost all of the 458 socom loads I have worked up were done in my home or out in the shop out back. I don't have a single load manual with 458 socom load data.

bigdaa
April 23, 2013, 02:47 PM
Almost all of the 458 socom loads I have worked up were done in my home or out in the shop out back. I don't have a single load manual with 458 socom load data.
I found 25 loads for the 458 socom on LoadData.com.

Most are Barnes so maybe you have an avenue to check your work-ups with their published data.

GLOOB
April 23, 2013, 03:03 PM
SR4759 was developed for reduced rifle loads. It is also advertised as a magnum pistol powder. Its slightly slower than 2400. Of course that makes it wayyy faster than H335 and W748 and the like. It can be used in 357 and 45 colt.

If u were hell bent on using a conventional rifle powder in handgun calibers u might consider cartridges with lots of case capacity. And you might be interested in something called duplex charging. Most modern reloaders will cry foul, but once upon a time (when powder selection wasn't as large, nor as easily attainable..., kinda like right now?), this was a relatively common practice.

kingmt
April 23, 2013, 11:00 PM
To the OP's question-no. Just.....no.

I damshore don't want to be a witness when you touch one of those rounds off.

I really wish people would try not posting when they don't know what they are talking about.

bigdaa
April 24, 2013, 10:45 AM
I really wish people would try not posting when they don't know what they are talking about.
I am in agreement with mtrmn.

Nobody should play the way the OP is intending unless a qualified Ballistics Expert.

To do so goes against everything that is taught about safe and responsible reloading.

kingmt
April 24, 2013, 11:45 AM
Reloading is one thing but many of us are handloaders.

I don't care if you use 50 BMG powder. It isn't going to blow up. The slower the powder the less pressure it is going to give. You guys keep crying danger & don't know what your talking about. 2400 is used in rifle & how many people use it in handgun? The OP is just trying to learn something. It makes it heard to learn when people give disinformation.

Don McDowell
April 24, 2013, 11:56 AM
The powders the OP asked about are a bit slow to work very well with the handgun cartridges. However if he had 4198 it would work fine, that's about the "fastest" rifle powder that will work in handgun rounds and not blow half the kernels out the end of the barrel.
If a person can find an older copy of Cartridges of the World, back in the back powders/reloading section, they published the data sheets from IMR, and in those you will find data for most of the powders IMR produced at the time in handgun and rifle cartridges.
2400 and unique today are considered handgun cartridges, however I still have cans for them that call them rifle powders, and 2400 got its name because it was the first powder that actually got a 22 hornet to do 2400 fps..

bigdaa
April 24, 2013, 12:24 PM
Reloading is one thing but many of us are handloaders.

I don't care if you use 50 BMG powder. It isn't going to blow up. The slower the powder the less pressure it is going to give. You guys keep crying danger & don't know what your talking about. 2400 is used in rifle & how many people use it in handgun? The OP is just trying to learn something. It makes it heard to learn when people give disinformation.
I take the disinformation comment as contempt for the practice of safe and prudent reloading practice.

And I do know what I am talking about. That I do not "experiment" with mixing apples and oranges is ingrained in me from believing what I have learned over the years. There is no need for you to look down your nose at prudent practice.

If I was in a position to employ test barrels and pressure measuring equipment, I can tell you that my technical background would suit me perfectly in generating meaningful data.

I think it would be wise for you to lighten up on those of us that are responding with the intent of insuring safety in process.

Remember, the whole thing started because the OP didn't have pistol powder and wanted to shove what he had on hand into service for loading pistol rounds with a specific rifle powder. The mere question of doing so needs to be frowned upon for the sake of us "reloaders" everywhere.

In an earlier post, I indicated that in the realm of the "Wildcatters" and those with advanced knowledge, such practice can be explored.
How many of those people do we have here? I doubt if it is a large percentage of THR reloaders.


With all respect, it sounds like you are one of those few, and if you are, please list a few of the accomplishments germane to this discussion.

Walkalong
April 24, 2013, 12:53 PM
Asked and answered.

If someone wants to talk about off the charts experimenting with handloading, feel free to start a thread, and be sure to include the proper warnings etc.

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