[Arizona_Mike]

I have been planning a trip to RMNP for some time.

I can easilly fit 16 rounds in my 15 round factory magazines. For some brands of ammo, I can get the magazines with 16 rounds in them to seat in the gun (takes 2-3 palm heal strikes and the mag cannot be ejected until 1 round is cycled). It is also harder than normal to pull back the slide, but I can get it to function.

Does this make my "16-round" 15-round magazines illegal?

Mike

[M-Cameron]

i believe magazine capacity is determined by how they are intend to be reasonably loaded when they leave the factory....

just because you can forcibly jam 1 more round in a mag shouldnt make it a high cap mag( assuming by your statement that CO has a 15round mag limit)

[David E]

Presumably, but only if you cram that ill-advised 16th round in the magazine that was only designed to hold 15. (sounds like the issues it causes with the gun isn't worth the added round, but thats just me.)

[Arizona_Mike]

1 I have no plan on using the gun that way.
2. it is easy to get the 16th round into the magazine. The hard part is getting the magazine into the gun.

Mike

[David E]

1) The hard part is getting the magazine into the gun (takes 2-3 palm heal strikes)

2) and the mag cannot be ejected until 1 round is cycled.

3) It is also harder than normal to pull back the slide



Most people would call these "clues."

[Devonai]

I remember having this exact same discussion well on sixteen years ago regarding that much vaunted 16th round. They are 15 round mags. Put 15 rounds in them. There is no limit to how many mags you can carry. Why second-guess Beretta's engineers?

[Risky]

I remember having this exact same discussion well on sixteen years ago regarding that much vaunted 16th round. They are 15 round mags. Put 15 rounds in them. There is no limit to how many mags you can carry. Why second-guess Beretta's engineers?
The OP's question isn't about the advisability of using them as 16 round magazines, but the legalities of having a magazine that will hold more than 15 rounds in CO.

As I see it... they are potentially contraband according to the CO law. You might not be able to easily insert the magazine into the gun with 16 rounds, but with the slide locked back it would be no problem.

This is just another example of why laws like this are pointless and just work to turn the law-abiding into potential criminals.

[lcambre]

During the federal magazine ban the ten rounders that were introduced were difficult to load the tenth round just for this reason. The question in the thread title just shows the problem when you have stupid laws made by people who know little about guns.

[HOOfan_1]

The OP's question isn't about the advisability of using them as 16 round magazines, but the legalities of having a magazine that will hold more than 15 rounds in CO.

As I see it... they are potentially contraband according to the CO law. You might not be able to easily insert the magazine into the gun with 16 rounds, but with the slide locked back it would be no problem.

This is just another example of why laws like this are pointless and just work to turn the law-abiding into potential criminals.

My dad said one time he was out deer hunting with 3 inch magnums (in Virginia up until a couple years ago shotguns were limited to 3 rounds for ANY hunting).

He said a game warden came up to check his gun, unloaded all my dad's three inch magnums, then produced from his own pocket 4 2.75" shells and tried them, he almost got the 4th to load and said "I almost got you".

Pretty scummy huh?

[DAP90]

Someone should probably check me on this but I believe the law restricts the purchase of new magazines with a capacity greater than 15. If you owned it prior to some upcoming date it can be any number of rounds and be legal to use and carry.

[X-Rap]

It only matters after July 1 and then only to post 7/1 manufacture. I don't know how they will know on undated mags but that remains to be seen and tested.
If it's anything like the 420 enforcement don't worry, thousands stood in public and smoked dope and the cops didn't do anything.

[MErl]

there was no language prohibiting import of mags >15 rounds in the bill. The requirement is that you have them before July 1 2013.

People may move into the state and keep the magazines they own now but not the ones they buy after June of this year.

[Pilot]

People may move into the state and keep the magazines they own now but not the ones they buy after June of this year.

Are you sure about that? I thought that they must be possessed by YOU as a resident of CO before 7/1/13. If that is the case then anyone could bring more into the state for personal use if possessed prior to that date.

[David E]

then produced from his own pocket four 2.75" shells and tried them, he almost got the 4th to load and said "I almost got you".

Pretty scummy huh?

No, scummy would've been if he produced four 2 1/2" shells.....

[Blackhawk30]

To esdily insert your 16 rd mag,Push mag button down before inserting mag into gun OR lock open slide before inserting mag.

[David E]

To esdily insert your 16 rd mag,Push mag button down before inserting mag into gun

This makes no sense whatsoever.

OR lock open slide before inserting mag.

This is true, but it pretty much requires the shooter to chamber a round immediately.....and we are back to 15+1

Now the real question is, if the shooter wants to go 16+1, will the gun function for that first shot? Remember, the slide is difficult to retract when there are 16 rds in the mag.

Another question is, if left loaded for an extended period, will the top 16th round deform? (I've seen that happen)

This is all moot, however, since the OP said he'd never carry it with 16 rds in the mag.

[CoRoMo]

i believe magazine capacity is determined by how they are intend to be reasonably loaded when they leave the factory....
Not correct.
...they are potentially contraband according to the CO law.
Nope.
If you owned it prior to some upcoming date it can be any number of rounds and be legal to use and carry.
Correct.
...they must be possessed by YOU as a resident of CO...
The law does not mention nor regard residency.
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont3/7E6713B015E62E6F87257B0100813CB5?Open&file=1224_rev.pdf

(2) (a) "LARGE - CAPACITY MAGAZINE MEANS:

(I) A FIXED OR DETACHABLE MAGAZINE, BOX, DRUM, FEED STRIP, OR
SIMILAR DEVICE CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING, OR THAT IS DESIGNED TO BE
READILY CONVERTED TO ACCEPT, MORE THAN FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF
AMMUNITION;

(II) A FIXED, TUBULAR SHOTGUN MAGAZINE THAT HOLDS MORE
THAN TWENTY-EIGHT INCHES OF SHOTGUN SHELLS, INCLUDING ANY
EXTENSION DEVICE THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE MAGAZINE AND HOLDS
ADDITIONAL SHOTGUN SHELLS; OR

(III) A NONTUBULAR, DETACHABLE MAGAZINE, BOX, DRUM, FEED

STRIP, OR SIMILAR DEVICE THAT IS CAPABLE OF ACCEPTING MORE THAN
EIGHT SHOTGUN SHELLS WHEN COMBINED WITH A FIXED MAGAZINE.

(b) "LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE" DOES NOT MEAN:

(I) A FEEDING DEVICE THAT HAS BEEN PERMANENTLY ALTERED SO

THAT IT CANNOT ACCOMMODATE MORE THAN FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF
AMMUNITION;

ATTACHED TUBULAR DEVICE DESIGNED TO ACCEPT, AND
CAPABLE OF OPERATING ONLY WITH, .22 CALIBER RIMFIRE AMMUNITION; OR

(II) AN

(III) A TUBULAR MAGAZINE THAT IS CONTAINED IN A LEVER-ACTION
FIREARM.

18-12-302. Large-capacity magazines prohibited - penalties -
exceptions. (1) (a) EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED IN THIS SECTION, ON
AND AFTER JULY 1, 2013, A PERSON WHO SELLS, TRANSFERS, OR POSSESSES
A LARGE-CAPACITY MAGAZINE COMMITS A CLASS 2 MISDEMEANOR.

[M-Cameron]

Well hell cromo, if the law is going to be interpreted that broadly, I'm sure I could fit 30-40 round of .22lr in a 15 round AR mag..... Would that then make it a " hi-cap" mag...?

[X-Rap]

I remains to be seen and when a law is written that broadly it leaves much to interpretation. Given the broad demographics of this state and the opinions of some of the current Sheriffs my guess is that it will get a broad range of enforcement as well.

[CoRoMo]

That was not an interpretation. That was the written law.

There is nothing in the law in regards to the magazines' intended design, reasonable loading methods, or factory condition of these magazines. Speculating that magazine capacity is determined by manufacturer specifications is not something that we can point to in the legislation nor in legal precedent yet.

[M-Cameron]

Well some level of interpretation is obviously needed...the law was intentionally written broadly so that it would require some level if interpetation....

otherwise what I had posted about the .22lr in the AR mag is technically true according to the way the law is written....therefore making all AR15 mags illegal....

....but that is obviously not the case.

Now I am not a lawyer, but ad far as I would be concerned If I was In OPs scenario.....the mags were clearly designed to hold 15 rounds, and the gun does not function properly with 16 round jammed In There..... That to me would say that it's a 15 round mag and not a 'hi cap' mag.....and I Personally would have no reservations abou bringing Said mags to CO.

[MagnumWill]

Best solution is - (don't draw attention to yourself while shooting.) :rolleyes:

[X-Rap]

Now I am not a lawyer, but ad far as I would be concerned If I was In OPs scenario.....the mags were clearly designed to hold 15 rounds, and the gun does not function properly with 16 round jammed In There..... That to me would say that it's a 15 round mag and not a 'hi cap' mag.....and I Personally would have no reservations abou bringing Said mags to CO.

I have seen and heard some conversations on Pearce mag bases and other devises that extend standard capacities as well as inline couplers. While the op's mag has not been modified it will hold over the limit allowed by law, I doubt that a willing prosecutor or judge could care less if is defective in some other way like function.
In his favor is the fact that he owns them now, how he proves that or if he is allowed to bring preban mags into the state are the unknowns.

[Arizona_Mike]

It seems several people responding have no idea what I am asking (even after I clarified)!

I have no desire to try forcing the 16th round, I'm concerned about a cop or prosecutor doing so. While it is difficult inserting a mag with 16 rounds into the gun, it is very easy to put the 16th in the magazine.

Gun forums are full of examples of authorities (usually the Feds) pulling such shenanigans, forging things, putting things together loosely, etc.

I was wondering about the importation aspect, thanks to those who responded with the information. I'll probably take the extra capacity telescoping springs out of my Glock 20 mags and carry that instead since your can't even get a 16th round half way in those with stock springs. 10mm Auto is better than 9mm for the reason I would want to be armed in RMNP anyway (4 legs not 2).

Mike

[Pilot]

Does the magazine have its capacity listed on it? Many will show 5, 10, 15 round indications on them. Does the documentation for the magazine, either its packaging, or information in the gun's owners manual have the capacity listed?

I would argue that if the mag is marked or the documentation/owner's manual states 15 rounds, then should be legally considered a 15 round mag. Would a judge determine that? It depends.

CoRoMo,

Thanks for the clarification. I am a former resident of Douglas County, CO. I was planning to move back, and I didn't want to have to leave my mags.

[X-Rap]

Mike I understand exactly what you are asking and in response say it doesn't matter if the mag is in your possession prior to 7/1/13.
The fact that you are from out of state is not clear in the what I have seen of the law but it has been voiced as a concern of some who have canceled shooting competitions and hunting trips.
After 7/1 I believe that any device post ban that will hold over the 15 limit will be in violation no matter if the gun functions reliably or not.

[David E]

The mag was designed to hold 15, is marked at 15, the manufacturers owners manual states 15, the OP owns it now.....but a prosecutor can easily insert a 16th round (to which the OP should gasp, "it does??" when told it'll hold 16) but none of us are the prosecutor or judge in whatever case the OP seems concerned about. Maybe he should get a dated bill of sale listing those mags on it, but it appears to me he's ok regardless....but I'm not the prosecutor.

On a related note, the law is poorly written. During the AWB, a popular remedy to a 10-rd 9mm was to use a 10-rd .40 magazine, in which 14-15 rds of 9mm would fit and function. A 15 rd .40 mag will hold 17-18 rds of 9mm.

The CO law, as written, would seem to ban those mags

[M-Cameron]

If it really bothers you, simply remove the floor plate and jb weld a small nut to the bottom of the follower or the top of the floor plate, that should take up enough room to prevent you from loading the extra round.

[tomrkba]

READILY CONVERTED TO ACCEPT, MORE THAN FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF...

Michael Bane talks about the law and how it is designed to trap gun owners in his podcast.

Can you pop off the base plate and add a +1 base plate? If so, the magazine is banned. If you are caught with it in the original configuration, despite being owned prior to the ban, you will get a free overnight stay courtesy of the local PD. You will have to go to court and you will be exonerated. But, you will be out all those legal fees and likely will not get your stuff back (see Bane's podcast around #307).

It would be legal if the base plate were permanently affixed to the tube.


Gun owners may no longer be casual about their firearms in Colorado. Lock them up when travelling, including the magazines and ammunition. MAKE THEM GET A WARRANT! Coloradans should send a letter to your legislators thanking them for souring citizen-police relations!!

[CoRoMo]

Covered

[Arizona_Mike]

The factory may has 5,10, and 15 round indicator holes which are labeled with Arabic numerals.

Mike

[coloradokevin]

I didn't read all of the responses, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned:

It can be a 100-round drum just so long as you owned it prior to July 1, 2013 (and keep it in your possession -- can't be sold or gifted here in Colorado).

This law is new, poorly written, and poorly researched. We'll see how things shake out once it's enacted. For whatever it's worth to mention this, I can tell you on good authority that a LOT of Colorado LEO's have no intention of enforcing this law :)

[postalnut25]

^^^^

What he said.

As a Colorado LEO, I have better things to do then count how many rounds are in your magazine.

In fact, the best thing to do is not draw my attention to you, and then we won't have to worry about this issue at all.