Do you load plated bullets same as cast or FMJ?


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Wildbillz
April 21, 2013, 09:04 PM
Hi All
I sat down today to reload some 45Acp rounds and ran into a little snag. I have some plated 200grn SWC that I got in a trade. I know that there not as thick as FMJ's, so what do I use out of the manual to load them? Best I could come up with is I found some in the Speer manual that were marked TMJ. Still a pretty good differance in them and cast.

So what do y'all use? Cast stats, FMJ stats or somewhere inbetween?

Next one is 185grn cast SWC. I can't find any info on them in my manual. Is there somthing that I am missing or do I just start out with the info for 200grn SWC and back off of it a bit?

Oh ya. Win 231, Unique or Bullseye. I have all three to use.

Thanks
WB

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mebe007
April 21, 2013, 09:11 PM
It depends on the cartridge and brand of bullets. 44 mag revolver and rainier I load cast but Berry's I up to jacketed. Now for my rifle its all cast data. 45acp and 380 I load as jacketed since they are much slower cartridges. Have had great luck.

sellersm
April 21, 2013, 09:38 PM
What brand are they?

4895
April 21, 2013, 09:42 PM
I suggest Bullseye powder using lead bullet load data.

JLDickmon
April 21, 2013, 09:45 PM
normally lead data

gahunter12
April 21, 2013, 09:57 PM
Lead data, or low jacket data. Most of my plated loads are low end jacket data.

sellersm
April 21, 2013, 10:07 PM
All depends on the brand. X-treme plated and PowerBond plated can be loaded as FMJ. Other plated are usually loaded mid jacketed/cast data. If you know the brand, try asking the manufacturer what they recommend.

Caliper_RWVA
April 21, 2013, 10:15 PM
TMJ stands for "total metal jacket". ie: it is a fmj, but where the jacket covers the base as well so there is no exposed lead anywhere. Not the same as plated...

Berrys reccomends lead bullet data. If you cut into one of the plated bullets, you will see that the copper really is a thin layer.

Curious, for those who load a lot with plated bullets, how would you tell when working up a load when you are pushing the plated bullet too fast?

PO2Hammer
April 21, 2013, 10:41 PM
Berry's recommends lead data.
Rainier recommends jacketed, staying 10% below max.

I like loads that satisfy both methods, that is somewhere above the starting jacketed load so you don't stick one in the bore, and below max for lead or 10% below max for jacketed data, whichever is less.

I've found that plated bullet velocity closely matches the predicted jacketed data from Hornady in .45acp, .40 and 9mm.

I used to use lead data until I stuck a .357" plated wadcutter in the bore of my revolver using starting lead data. Since then I never go below starting jacketed data.

Not much danger of that in a .45 auto, but plated bullets do have a lot more friction than lead.

IdahoSkies
April 21, 2013, 10:48 PM
I use Berry's plated a lot. Berry's says to use lead data. So take that for what its worth. I usually use low end jacketed recipies. However you mileage may very. use this information at your own discretion.

Lennyjoe
April 22, 2013, 12:05 AM
Same as lead in .45 but I am using it with Longshot almost to max with 180gr plated loads (7.1 gr) with no issues in my .40 cal. Shooting X-treme bullets in that load.

ljnowell
April 22, 2013, 12:33 AM
TMJ stands for "total metal jacket". ie: it is a fmj, but where the jacket covers the base as well so there is no exposed lead anywhere. Not the same as plated...

Not exactly. To the best of my knowledge, they are in fact plated bullets, the plating is just much, much thicker. A FMJ has an exposed base and a HP has an exposed front because the jacket is a flat disc of metal that is drawn around a core. In order to not have a seam or exposed base or HP cavity, they have to be plated.

bds
April 22, 2013, 12:52 AM
Do you load plated bullets same as cast or FMJ?

I know that there not as thick as FMJ's, so what do I use out of the manual to load them? Best I could come up with is I found some in the Speer manual that were marked TMJ. Still a pretty good differance in them and cast.

So what do y'all use? Cast stats, FMJ stats or somewhere inbetween?
As many posted, depending on the manufacturers' recommendations.


Rainier Ballistics (.004" copper plating (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8499419#post8499419)) recommends we use lead load data - http://www.rainierballistics.com/loaddata.php
We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets - In general, our bullets typically perform their best when shot at velocities no greater than 1,200 to 1,250 Feet per second (FPS) (http://www.rainierballistics.com/faq.php).


Berry's MFG recommends we use low-to-mid range jacketed load data with limit of 1250 fps for their regular plated bullets (up to .008" copper plating (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8499419#post8499419)) and 1450 fps for their thicker plated (TP) bullets (.012" copper plating) (http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14863-c11-g8-b0-p0-9mm_356_115gr_HBRN_TP_1000ct.aspx) - http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx
When loading [Berry's] plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual.


PowerBond claims thicker copper plating and I have used jacketed load data with good results - http://powerbondbullets.com/about.html
Our copper is thicker and tougher than other bullets...between 10 and 11-thousandths.


X-Treme plated bullets have thicker plating (.010"-.012" per longdayjake who sells them) and I have used jacketed load data with good results - http://www.xtremebullets.com/category-s/1952.htm
Our Copper Plated bullets can be run at Jacketed velocities. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 fps


Speer TMJŪ (Total Metal Jacket) is registered trademark under ATK/Alliant (http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx) and have the thickest copper plating (.015" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8499419#post8499419)) and I use jacketed load data with good results.


Next one is 185grn cast SWC. I can't find any info on them in my manual. Is there somthing that I am missing or do I just start out with the info for 200grn SWC and back off of it a bit?

Oh ya. Win 231, Unique or Bullseye. I have all three to use.
Here's 1999-2005 Winchester load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605). I have used load data for slightly heavier bullet for my load work up with good results.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=183123&stc=1&d=1366607380

Current Alliant load data for Bullseye - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=1&cartridge=35
45 Auto 200 gr Speer Lead SWC OAL 1.190" Bullseye Max 4.6 gr (807 fps)

Current Alliant load data for Unique - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=35
45 Auto 200 gr Speer Lead SWC OAL 1.190" Unique Max 5.4 gr (790 fps)

2004 Alliant load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070) for Bullseye/Unique

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=183126&stc=1&d=1366608448

gamestalker
April 22, 2013, 01:07 AM
Plated and FMJ are two completely different bullets. TMJ uses the same load specs as does any jacketed, because it is a jacketed bullet. In fact FMJ and, or, TMJ often have a bit thicker jacket than a traditional jacketed hollow point may have. Because of this, the powder charge may be a bit larger than for a JHP of the same weight. So definitely don't use FMJ or TMJ data for those plated bullets.

As for a plated bullet the data that applies, plated can be safely loaded between lead and jacketed. So if you would take the starting charge for a 200 gr. SWC and a 200 gr. JHP and start in the middle. In other words, if the start charge for the SWC is say 4.4 grs. and jacketed start charge is 4.8 grs. you would want to start some where around 4.6 grs..

Another option would be to contact the bullet manufacturer and ask for some load data for their bulllet.

And if the bullet is a TP, or thick plated such as the line that Berrys makes, it can be loaded using jacketed data, according to Berrys. But don't just simply assume that it is a TP bullet.

GS

ljnowell
April 22, 2013, 01:32 AM
Plated and FMJ are two completely different bullets. TMJ uses the same load specs as does any jacketed, because it is a jacketed bullet. In fact FMJ and, or, TMJ often have a bit thicker jacket than a traditional jacketed hollow point may have. Because of this, the powder charge may be a bit larger than for a JHP of the same weight. So definitely don't use FMJ or TMJ data for those plated bullets.

As for a plated bullet the data that applies, plated can be safely loaded between lead and jacketed. So if you would take the starting charge for a 200 gr. SWC and a 200 gr. JHP and start in the middle. In other words, if the start charge for the SWC is say 4.4 grs. and jacketed start charge is 4.8 grs. you would want to start some where around 4.6 grs..

Another option would be to contact the bullet manufacturer and ask for some load data for their bulllet.

And if the bullet is a TP, or thick plated such as the line that Berrys makes, it can be loaded using jacketed data, according to Berrys. But don't just simply assume that it is a TP bullet.

GS

TMJ bullets are in fact plated. They are a thick plating that loads to jacketed specs, but they are still made by plating a lead core.

bds
April 22, 2013, 01:39 AM
I think Montana Gold Bullet's CMJ uses the disk at the lead base of FMJ bullets. ATK/Alliant does hold the registered trademark - http://www.trademarkia.com/tmj-73833272.html
On Monday, October 23, 1989, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for TMJ by Alliant Techsystems Inc., MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55344. The USPTO has given the TMJ trademark serial number of 73833272

The TMJ trademark is filed in the category of Firearm Products . The description provided to the USPTO for TMJ is AMMUNITION.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177552&stc=1&d=1358012002

ljnowell
April 22, 2013, 01:52 AM
I'm not sure about the CMJs, but I have talked to a rep from speer on the TMJs and they dont use the phrase "electro plated" because too many people latch onto that and lump them into the same group as say Ranier. The Speer TMJ isnt thicker than a conventional jacket, like stated above, but it is similar in thickness and strength. They simply dont like to refer to it as a plated bullet, thats why they use the phrase TMJ. The Gold Dot is the same way, its not a jacketed bullet. It is, in fact, plated also.

Steve in PA
April 22, 2013, 08:24 AM
Rainier says to use regular jacketed data. There is a you tube video of someone taking a tour of the plant recently and he asked this very question.

I've always loaded my 9mm and .45acp Rainier bullets to jacketed velocities.

Steve in PA
April 22, 2013, 08:26 AM
Here's the video on the tour of the Rainier plant.

http://youtu.be/qD1gZhtEIuo

Walkalong
April 22, 2013, 08:57 AM
From Ranier:

http://www.rainierballistics.com/loaddata.php

From Berrys:

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx


Some data:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6195350&postcount=11

longdayjake
April 22, 2013, 10:16 AM
BDS. Here is something you may want to add to your thickness tables. The Xtreme HP bullets are thickly plated to about .015" or more. Same as the Speer TMJ.

Also, after having visited the Xtreme plant and seen how they do their plating, I can see why they aren't posting a plating thickness on their website. Apparently it isn't an exact science which is why they double strike everything.

bds
April 22, 2013, 10:29 AM
Thanks, will do.

PO2Hammer
April 22, 2013, 01:24 PM
Rainier also double strikes all their bullets.

blarby
April 22, 2013, 02:39 PM
I load them as lead.

However, I load them as FMJ in 30 carbine, and they work very accurately. Go figure.

SpentCasing
April 22, 2013, 06:18 PM
i have some RMR plated 9mm.

They say that they recommend to use FMJ data. I have yet to load any but thats what Im gonna use.

ranger335v
April 22, 2013, 06:26 PM
"Do you load plated bullets same as cast or FMJ?"

Yes, for handguns anyway, and with complete satisfaction too. But only with my own hard cast and properly lubed stuff.

bergmen
April 22, 2013, 10:04 PM
PowerBond bullets does not have recommended loading data on their website (like Rainer and Berry's does) so I e-mailed Matt and asked him. His reply:

"1,300 fps is the max I recommend shooting our plated bullets, our bullets are higher quality and tougher than our competition but they are still a plated bullet. The plating separates from the lead at higher velocities causing inaccuracy and dangerous fouling. I recommend you shoot a jacketed bullet if you are pushing them much faster than that."

Dan

bds
April 22, 2013, 10:05 PM
Thanks Dan for the info!

longdayjake
April 22, 2013, 10:28 PM
"1,300 fps is the max I recommend shooting our plated bullets, our bullets are higher quality and tougher than our competition but they are still a plated bullet. The plating separates from the lead at higher velocities causing inaccuracy and dangerous fouling. I recommend you shoot a jacketed bullet if you are pushing them much faster than that."

Dan

Back when I was selling Powerbond, Matt would personally deliver them to my shop. The truth is, we were both getting reports from customers that were shooting them at 2000 fps from lever actions and the results were great. But, the same customers would report the plating shaving off when they would try the same load from a .357 or .44 mag revolver. Apparently the forcing cone of some revolvers will shave the plating at higher pressures. My guess is that the bullet obturates quite a bit at that velocity. So, I think that is why Matt has begun recommending staying at or under 1300 fps.

Walkalong
April 23, 2013, 07:30 AM
I had one revolver that would not shoot plated bullets at even 1200 FPS. It simply was too hard on them. The same bullet shot at 1200+ FPS in other revolvers. I ended up blaming it on the same thing.

bergmen
April 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
Back when I was selling Powerbond, Matt would personally deliver them to my shop. The truth is, we were both getting reports from customers that were shooting them at 2000 fps from lever actions and the results were great. But, the same customers would report the plating shaving off when they would try the same load from a .357 or .44 mag revolver. Apparently the forcing cone of some revolvers will shave the plating at higher pressures. My guess is that the bullet obturates quite a bit at that velocity. So, I think that is why Matt has begun recommending staying at or under 1300 fps.

This is extremely interesting and tends to parallel some of my findings as well I think. for my practice and recreational shooting I have been moving towards plated bullets rather than jacketed for two reasons: cost and lead exposure while handling and shooting (especially shooting FMJ because of the exposed lead at the base of the bullet).

For the automatics, no problem at all. As accurate if not more so than jacketed. Wonderful application of plated bullets. Same with my lever action in .45 Colt even though I put a light roll crimp because of the tubular magazine.

One of my very accurate jacketed load revolvers started opening up groups with plated (+P to light .38 Special loads). My plan was to start dinking around with powder charges to try to bring it back in but in this case I'm going to try going back to jacketed to see if that cures it.

With my .45 Colt loads out of my Bisley - no problems at all. It has to be the cylinder/forcing cone alignment I'm thinking. The cylinder on the Bisley is very free floating on a small diameter base pin which I think lends itself to a more effortless self alignment during firing.

My .38 Special revolver is not that way, it is an Open Top with the cylinder rotating on a large diameter staked-in base pin with some rotational resistance. This may contribute to a less than ideal self alignment property during shooting.

I will test this out and see. Another good reason to hit the range...

Dan

Hondo 60
April 23, 2013, 12:42 PM
I use a lot of Berry's & they say...


How fast can I shoot these bullets?
Velocities depend on the caliber, but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1250 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities over 1250fps unless the bullet description denotes a thick plated bullet with a higher listed maximum for velocity.



How do I load Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets?
Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

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