Is a 10mm too much for self defense?


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UKWildcatFan
April 22, 2013, 06:58 PM
Anyone think of any negatives to carrying one for SD?

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-v-
April 22, 2013, 07:00 PM
I do so from time to time. Only negative is higher ammunition costs.

USAF_Vet
April 22, 2013, 07:00 PM
Aside from the size of the gun, I can see no drawbacks to carrying 10mm. Not too familiar with what platforms are available, but I'd be rather surprised if there were no compact 10mm pistols on the market.

SharpsDressedMan
April 22, 2013, 07:04 PM
My Glock 29 is a little fatter than some concealed carry guns, but no one has spotted it yet! .......................................................................................... http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06181.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/matquig/media/DSC06181.jpg.html)

Queen_of_Thunder
April 22, 2013, 07:06 PM
My preferred round of choice.

hentown
April 22, 2013, 07:34 PM
I occasionally carry my G29, but don't see any point in the super hi-vel rounds for s.d.

2zulu1
April 22, 2013, 07:45 PM
Figure on 15.5" of penetration from Double Tap's 155gr XPB (Barnes bullet) ammunition with an expansion of 0.840".

Olympus
April 22, 2013, 07:52 PM
Biggest thing I'd say you need to worry about is whether you can use it effectively. If the stiff recoil affects your performance, then I'd say stick with something more manageable. But if you can handle the recoil, then I think it's a great carry choice. Ballistically very similar to a full house .357 Mag load and people have been using that caliber for defense for many, many years.

UKWildcatFan
April 22, 2013, 08:08 PM
Yeah, just thinking of possible over-penetration. I can handle the recoil, so im putting down my Kahr CW45, and have sent back my Crossbreed to have it retrofitted for the G29 ($40). I'll be training with my G29 a lot.

dpote
April 22, 2013, 08:19 PM
I carry a 10mm. Either the Glock or the Smith & Wesson. I am not as worried about over-penetration as I am with missed shots.
I try to practice with them as much as I can. I shoot the monthly IPSC match with the Glock. I may use the S&W for the match this month.
Every time I have mentioned carrying a 10mm, someone mentions the Harold Fish case where the Judge determined it was too much gun, and put Mr. Fish in jail. But as Clint Smith says; "None of them are too big to fight with."

Dave

harrygunner
April 22, 2013, 09:13 PM
The 10mm ballistic envelope largely overlaps the .357 Mag. Re-asking, replacing "10mm" with ".357 Mag" helps with a lot of these kinds of questions.

Also helps one ignore all the over-the-top proclamations about what a 10mm can do. The Internet exaggerations only hurt adoption of the 10mm, causing some to pass it by.

BTW, my primary carry handgun is a 10mm.

ocob
April 22, 2013, 10:05 PM
My experience is that Glock 29 is no harder to control than a snub nosed 357. YMMV.

ShadeTree
April 22, 2013, 10:14 PM
I carry a G20sf in a shoulder holster - Left hand draw because I ride a MC 90% of the time. I don't find the recoil any different than my DW 4inch 357 - protection --there is no overkill

SharpsDressedMan
April 22, 2013, 11:20 PM
"Judge determined it was too much gun"........really? I guess the FBI was carrying too much gun when they used the 10mm. Very wise judge. Probably an expert on firearms.

mljdeckard
April 23, 2013, 12:40 AM
YOu will never be in a fight with a handgun and wish you had a less powerful cartridge. Learn it, use it, do the exact same thing you would do with any other cartridge.

Girodin
April 23, 2013, 02:54 AM
Biggest thing I'd say you need to worry about is whether you can use it effectively. If the stiff recoil affects your performance, then I'd say stick with something more manageable.

This. There is nothing wrong with a 10mm per se. However, it probably is not the best choice for many people. Being able to shoot well and shoot quickly are more important factors than the difference in terminal ballistics between a 10mm and something like a 9x19. I think Ken Hackathorn hit the nail on the head when he said that while a 10mm is one of his favorites its not for everyone and most people can shoot a 9x19 better and thus 9x19 is a better choice. See the following video starting at the 15 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ViI2UWFKg

Every time I have mentioned carrying a 10mm, someone mentions the Harold Fish case where the Judge determined it was too much gun, and put Mr. Fish in jail.

The judge made no such determination. Such a statement is even more inane than most of the stupid things said about the Fish case. The prosecutor made arguments with respect to the 10mm Fish used to shoot an unarmed aggressor (or victim depending on your perspective). The judge made no findings about it one way or another as the judge was not the trier of fact. Rather, after one of the trials at least one member of the jury made comments suggesting the prosecutors argument resonated with her. IMHO as someone who has studied law and prosecuted cases, there were so many other factors that were so much more important to how that case played out than the 10mm that it is almost laughable to try and use that case as an argument against carrying such a gun.

silvermane_1
April 23, 2013, 03:35 AM
IIRC it was the prosecutor in the Fish case the said the 10mm was more powerful than what the LEO's used.

jmr40
April 23, 2013, 06:56 AM
I really like my G-20 and the 10mm round. But I view the 10mm as a better outdoors/hikng/camping pistol in areas where there is a possibility of large predator attack. With the best loads I get magnum revolver performance from a handgun that is much lighter and more compact than a revolver.

For personal protection against humans I don't think it offers any advantages over traditional 9mm, 40S&W or 45 rounds. In fact even when bumming around in the woods I keep at least 2 magazines. One loaded with 200 gr hardcast wadcutter DoubleTap ammo @ 1300 fps. for bear and another magazine loaded with 155 gr HP ammo @ about the same speed for 2 legged predators.

A 10mm makes a great dual purpose round. If protection from humans is your only concern then the lighter 40 S&W equivalent loads are good enough and with less recoil will be faster for repeat shots. The really hot loads are more than needed. If you don't need the hotter loads then there is probably no reason to buy a larger gun that shoots harder to find more expensive ammo. In that case I'd just buy a 40, 45 or 9mm.

hentown
April 23, 2013, 09:20 AM
The Fish case was an anomaly. The judge should have charged the jury that the caliber had nothing to do with the case, and the defense attorney should have objected to the prosecutor's "opinion" about the 10mm.

You're going to get stupid people on the bench and on juries. That's the way the system works. (or, in this case, doesn't work.)

I believe the prosecutor gets the last closing argument. If he didn't mention the "uniqueness" of the 10mm until then, then the judge should have addressed that idiocy during his charge.

HKGuns
April 23, 2013, 11:53 AM
Not if you can hit your target with the round.

Roadking Rider
April 23, 2013, 12:44 PM
If I couldn't shoot well enough to stop a threat with a 9mm or 45 caliber round, then I doubt a 50 cal will make any difference. Accuracy and the bullets effectiveness starts and ends with the guy pulling the trigger. I'm more interested in stopping the threat more than I am killing anyone.

X-Rap
April 23, 2013, 12:52 PM
I'm no small guy and far from recoil sensitive, I shoot 454 Alaskan, 44S&W Classic, Contenders in 45-70&30-30. As well as rifles that make many cringe 338-378, 30-378 300UM and 45-70.
I have had 2 10mm and got rid of them both Colt Delta and G20. Not so much because the recoil was painful bet because it distracted so much from the speed/accuracy of subsequent shots.

SharpsDressedMan
April 23, 2013, 02:12 PM
What the 10mm delivers above other lesser cartridges with the first shot makes me less concerned about the fraction of a second later my second or third shot arrives. I try to make it a point to connect on the first shot, no matter how long it takes to do that. A slow first shot is PROBABLY still better or more deadly than a fast miss.

mrnic3guy1989
April 23, 2013, 02:14 PM
I carry a G20 but I have to dress around it. I won't carry it if it warms up unless I'm in the outdoors. Main concerns are size but as far as penetration just get the right ammo nothing close to the Norma loads however the Silvertip is a great choice for SD/HD but me I prefer Buffalo Bore 180 gr. JHP.

X-Rap
April 23, 2013, 02:29 PM
This is for the benefit of the OP and answering his question rather than a caliber war so my only reply to SDM is that I doubt that he carry's but one round in that gun and of my own admission I doubt that I would be as judicious with my first shot in a high stakes gunfight.
IMO my carry gun needs to be faster and smaller than what I would use for hunting. A hot 10mm from a rest shooting at a deer is different than a SD situation. If you are down loading the 10 you have a 40 only it's bigger than it needs to be. I never felt that the Colt would stand up to a lifetime of 10mm, but that's just me.

jerkface11
April 23, 2013, 02:36 PM
Odd the revolver guys don't seem to think .357 is too much.

X-Rap
April 23, 2013, 02:55 PM
You'll hear plenty of revolver guys talk about blast and recoil and even damage to their guns from hot 357's Many download to 38+p loads for carry. My revolver views are similar to my auto, if I were hunting I'd opt for a hot heavy 357 load but probably go with a lighter bullet at a mid range velocity for defense.

Eagle-101
April 23, 2013, 03:14 PM
I carry a Glock 29 in a DeSantis pocket holster. Nobody has spotted it and it is quick and easy to get into action. They're a good pair!

SharpsDressedMan
April 23, 2013, 05:11 PM
X-Rap, it might be odd, especially because I carry a lot of different guns concealed, but the Glock 29 is the most frequent of them all, and at the upper end of the power spectrum. It has a good weight/size/power ratio. Just recently I shot the gun two hands over the table at 25 yards, and the G29 placed every shot in the head of a silhouette easily. This was slow fire. A pistol with such a short barrel shouldn't be that accurate. :D If I had to deliver a fast shot at that longer-than-usual gunfighting range, I'd aim center mass. It is nice to know that a small, powerful gun CAN deliver accuracy equal to or better than most other options for concealed carry. I even hate to admit it, but should I be pressed to choose one gun to fight with, or limit myself to, that Glock 29 would be the one for me. I considered my Ruger Security Six .357 to be very accurate, and the Glock 29 kept right up with it that day at the range. Throw in it's much more compact size, and 11 round potential (with 15 round back up mags available) and it's just plain hard to beat. I am a fairly big person, with strong hands, and repeat shots are not handicapped much by the extra recoil.

ku4hx
April 23, 2013, 05:57 PM
The FBI didn't think so, then whiny agents complained the recoil was too much so it was watered down. And therein was born the 40 Small & Weak. Or Small and Wimpy ... whatever.

Girodin
April 23, 2013, 06:34 PM
And therein was born the 40 Small & Weak

Its generally called a "40 short & weak," because it is a shortened case to make the 40 S&W.

Deaf Smith
April 23, 2013, 06:40 PM
Is a 10mm too much for self defense?

It is only 'to much' if you can't handle whatever platform you use.

See a 15 oz 10mm would be a bear to shoot fast, one handed, but a 40 oz 1911 Delta Elite is not bad at all (nor is the Glock 10mm.)

I do find the Glock 29, sub-compact 10mm, is kind of hard to control one handed with full power 200 gr loads, at least for ME.

As for the effect on a bad guy, more is always better.

Deaf

Plan2Live
April 23, 2013, 07:02 PM
And therein was born the 40 Small & Weak. Or Small and Wimpy ... whatever. I've yet to see anyone throw out that quote that wants to take a hit from one of them wimpy rounds. Just sayin'.

M1key
April 23, 2013, 07:05 PM
If self-defense includes four-legged offenders, no it's not too much.


M

jerkface11
April 23, 2013, 07:05 PM
The FBI was shooting 10mm out of steel framed S&W gen III's. Recoil shouldn't have been an issue. The weight of the gun was most likely the problem.

SDGlock23
April 23, 2013, 08:19 PM
Yeah I think it was mostly the bulk of the gun that was the problem, not the recoil. Speaking of which, that's one of my main issues with the 10mm, the size of the weapon. I've had a G20/29sf and have a G21/30 Gen4 and it's not too big, but it's generally bigger and fatter than the 9/.40/357 Sig sized guns, one exception being the 1911 platform.

As for the 10mm itself, it's a good cartridge and not too much IMHO. Unless you're shooting heavier 200gr+, penetration really isn't much more, and due to excess speed often penetration is less than many .40/.45 loads. I used to have 10mm, and while nice I don't see that it's doing anything the .40 or .45 isn't.

Tcruse
April 23, 2013, 08:37 PM
The Fish case was an anomaly. The judge should have charged the jury that the caliber had nothing to do with the case, and the defense attorney should have objected to the prosecutor's "opinion" about the 10mm.

You're going to get stupid people on the bench and on juries. That's the way the system works. (or, in this case, doesn't work.)

I believe the prosecutor gets the last closing argument. If he didn't mention the "uniqueness" of the 10mm until then, then the judge should have addressed that idiocy during his charge.
Agree that the caliber should not be a factor. A light trigger should not be a factor, reloaded ammo should not be a factor. A 30 round mag should not be a factor. The key word is should. All of these will most likely be questions that the defense will have to answer and potentially cause a distraction that may hinder your defense. So, unless you have really good answers or a lot of money, it does not make sense to add more questions that could be used against you.

PedalBiker
April 23, 2013, 09:12 PM
Is 10mm is too much self defense?? Not in my opinion. But I carry tire chains, a tow strap a shovel and blankets all winter. You see loads of folks with bald tires in the middle of nowhere off in the ditch and so far NO ONE who has needed a jump-start from me has had their own cables????

Ignorance is bliss? - only for a while.

CDW4ME
April 23, 2013, 09:29 PM
Glock 29 + Hornady 155 gr. XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE = SD :)

Robert101
April 23, 2013, 11:00 PM
I think the Op's question is valid and I addressed it by using basically a handloaded round that is on the hot side of the 40 S&W. I absolutely love the 10MM and think it is the BEST self defense round made. I do have somewhat of a follow up shot problem with full hot 10MM loads for SD. I apply the same principle to my 44 Magnum when using it for SD. I use 44 Special loads in it. By the way, I don't see any need to address over-penetration in any caliber.

rondog
April 23, 2013, 11:05 PM
Never fired a 10mm, but I'd love to have me some Delta Elite goodness.....

Iggy
April 24, 2013, 12:02 AM
Is the 10mm too much for SD?

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/Iggy25/RZs.jpg

Boy, I sure hope not. I been packin' one or the other of these two for quite a few years.

surjimmy
April 24, 2013, 12:55 AM
Carry this one all the time. It was worked over by Chuck Warner.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa250/surjimmy/IMG_1959.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/surjimmy/media/IMG_1959.jpg.html)

Bovice
April 24, 2013, 01:49 AM
Glock 29 + Hornady 155 gr. XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE = SD :)
A .40 "short and weak" will throw that same 155 grain bullet at 1150. Does 120 fps make much difference? I think not.

Ankeny
April 24, 2013, 10:03 AM
Biggest thing I'd say you need to worry about is whether you can use it effectively. I agree. I had a Colt Delta Elite Enhanced and it was tough to shoot with the heavy full boat loads. I also don't like the hit quality and what I see on the timer when I shoot a 10mm Glock. I suppose it just depends on how much one is willing to give up in the "fast and accurate" department.

SharpsDressedMan
April 24, 2013, 10:46 AM
Every gun out there is a balance of weight, power, capacity, and other design factors that contribute to its ability to provide fast recovery shots. Some guys prefer power over speed, hence the choices for .45, 10mm, .357, .44, etc over 9mm, etc. It's whatever YOU prefer. No one has the market on the "perfect gun".

MK11
April 24, 2013, 12:48 PM
It's not too much if you train with it. But can you afford to shoot it enough (or even find enough 10mm) to be proficient?

2zulu1
April 24, 2013, 12:54 PM
Dan Wesson once offered the 10mm in a 1911 Commander platform. Page two link to a review of the DW and the writer considered its recoil as moderate, even with hot loads.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/169.htm

For personal defense ammunition, the 10mm is like a walk through a candy store with numerous choices for the consumer. Living in a rural habitat, heavy 200/220gr WFNs are advantageous and I haven't found their recoil from a G20 to be excessive.

As a handloader, I now load JHPs under 1300fps for close range personal defense;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/10mm-180GS_698-3H2Obottles007-1.jpg

180gr Golden Saber, 1243fps, 0.698" expansion, 13.1" penetration 4LD.

2zulu1
April 24, 2013, 12:58 PM
It's not too much if you train with it. But can you afford to shoot it enough (or even find enough 10mm) to be proficient?
Yes, Missouri Bullet Company, buy 2,000/3,000 TCFNs, bulk price and flat rate shipping. :)

CDW4ME
April 24, 2013, 09:05 PM
A .40 "short and weak" will throw that same 155 grain bullet at 1150. Does 120 fps make much difference? I think not.

About the same difference as a standard pressure 9mm vs 9mm +P :rolleyes:



:scrutiny:

Swing
April 24, 2013, 09:48 PM
Too much? Naw. My first pick? Naw again. :D

Lj1941
April 25, 2013, 03:11 PM
If a 40 is "Short & Weak-It sure has taken the LE community by storm. What does that make the 9's that were the best thing since sliced bread before the advent of the "Short & Weak?:evil:

bill3424
April 25, 2013, 05:30 PM
It's never too much for self defense. I am a big fan of my G29. I can wear it IWB comfortably.

UKWildcatFan
April 25, 2013, 09:54 PM
It's not too much if you train with it. But can you afford to shoot it enough (or even find enough 10mm) to be proficient?
Surely, I reload. I have my Critical Defense fir PD, but I just bought 600 bullets to reload for practice...with more to come. Much more.

Stevie-Ray
April 27, 2013, 09:20 PM
Too much, no. But I prefer to go back to my .45 ACP when I return to the concrete jungle. I use the Glock 29 while up at my place in the National Forest.

THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR
April 27, 2013, 09:39 PM
^^^ I agree with Stevie-Ray. When I'm in Vermont there's a much greater threat from wild animals, so I carry my Delta Elite. When I'm in the city, it's back to one of my various .45s.

CPLofMARINES
April 27, 2013, 10:40 PM
Post #30
That's funny, never heard that.
10mm is probably one of the most versatile cartridges. As
Low as 40 S&W and as high as .41 Mag or better. For the
City I like Hornady's 155 grn. XTP, .357 Mag power, but
A .40 cal. Hole to begin with.

Semper Fi

Justin Holder
April 28, 2013, 12:06 AM
The 10mm can be a .40S&W, .45 ACP or .357 Mag, depending on what load you choose.

SDGlock23
April 29, 2013, 09:59 AM
The 10mm is a good cartridge, but a .41 Magnum it isn't. Talk about old myths dying hard, this one just hangs on for some reason. The thing is, the 10mm and .40 S&W have much more in common than the 10mm and .41 Magnum.

The 10mm and .40 shoot the exact same caliber bullet (.400-.401"), same exact bullet weight (135-220/230gr). The only difference is velocity, and in this case with the same (or similar) barrel length a warm 10mm has about a 100-150 fps advantage over a warm .40 S&W.

The .41 Magnum, although slight does shoot a larger caliber bullet (.410-.411"), shoots heavier bullets (I've seen up to 300gr) and is faster than the 10mm.

I've loaded for the 10mm and still load for the .40, and I know what both are capable of. What's closer?

.410" .41 Magnum, 265gr hardcast @ 1,450 fps (Buffalo Bore ammo)

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

OR...

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

.400" .40 S&W, 180gr JHP @ 1300-1350 fps (warm handload from 6" barrel)

10mm is a good cartridge, I just don't see it having a huge advantage in terms of auto loaders. A .41 Mag is bigger and badder for sure. If I want more than my .40 S&W in a pistol, out comes the .45 Super Glock 21 throwing 250-275gr hardcasts at 1100-1175 fps.

Peter M. Eick
April 29, 2013, 10:13 AM
The negatives are simple. Can YOU control it and do YOU have confidence in YOUR abilities with the gun and ammo?

If you answer NO to any of those questions, move on until you find something you answer YES to them.

I have full confidence in my 10mm's. I have seen them stop animals and I shoot enough of them that I can accurately shoot them well. Yes there will be a heck of a blast but when the chips are down, I am full confidence that I can hit and hit accurately. Do I carry my 10mm's often? No. 380's and 9mm's are more often due to living in the humid south. But when I think there is even the remotest risk, I first question why I would even consider going into such a situation, but if the need arises out comes the big 10mm.

2zulu1
April 29, 2013, 02:51 PM
The 10mm is a good cartridge, but a .41 Magnum it isn't. Talk about old myths dying hard, this one just hangs on for some reason. The thing is, the 10mm and .40 S&W have much more in common than the 10mm and .41 Magnum.

The 10mm and .40 shoot the exact same caliber bullet (.400-.401"), same exact bullet weight (135-220/230gr). The only difference is velocity, and in this case with the same (or similar) barrel length a warm 10mm has about a 100-150 fps advantage over a warm .40 S&W.

The .41 Magnum, although slight does shoot a larger caliber bullet (.410-.411"), shoots heavier bullets (I've seen up to 300gr) and is faster than the 10mm.

I've loaded for the 10mm and still load for the .40, and I know what both are capable of. What's closer?

.410" .41 Magnum, 265gr hardcast @ 1,450 fps (Buffalo Bore ammo)

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

OR...

.400" 10mm Auto, 180gr JHP @ 1400-1450 fps (very warm handload from 6" barrel)

.400" .40 S&W, 180gr JHP @ 1300-1350 fps (warm handload from 6" barrel)

10mm is a good cartridge, I just don't see it having a huge advantage in terms of auto loaders. A .41 Mag is bigger and badder for sure. If I want more than my .40 S&W in a pistol, out comes the .45 Super Glock 21 throwing 250-275gr hardcasts at 1100-1175 fps.
You're missing a couple of key points, how do you plan to conceal the 41 mag or a .40/6" that you wrote of? Also, why would you choose to carry a 265gr WFN/1450fps in a populated area? Does your .41 mag match 10mm split times?

If you are loading to SAAMI specs, I find your .40 chronograph results to be very generous. :)

Unless one is shooting all copper bullets, .40 cal JHP bullets should be kept in the <1300fps range to retain bullet integrity at personal defense distances.

Here's a decent review of a 10mm/1911, 125gr Barnes (all copper Double Tap ammunition) bullet knocking on 1600 fps. Watch the video and the recoil is very manageable;

http://www.gunblast.com/Colt-DeltaElite.htm

Robert101
April 29, 2013, 07:19 PM
I agree the 10MM is not a 41 mag. The comparison is not relavant to me. My point is that the 10MM is everything in a SD round it needs to be. I think its more akin to the .357 Mag but with a larger meplat. I always like to select a gun/cartridge combination that is a little more than what I need it for. This allows me to pick the right load for the task at hand. AND, if I want a little more both cartidge and gun are capable of the slight additional capacity. A little off topic but I really like the .45 automatic, but it's pentration abilities (in barriers that is) are on the weak side.

SharpsDressedMan
April 29, 2013, 07:40 PM
I think that we are forgetting that all handgun rounds are marginal at best for true self defense. Even .45's and .44's get mixed results on human targets, especially if the target is on pain numbing drugs. To pick the 10mm and say it is too much is probably not the issue. The issue might be whether the person considering the use of the 10mm is yet seasoned enough as a shooter to effectively employ the 10mm in a defensive situation. It may be "too much" for some shooters to shoot well, but it is not too much for incapacitation in defensive situations.

Stevie-Ray
April 29, 2013, 08:33 PM
If you want to use the 10mm for SD against humans, a good load would be PMC's 170gr HP @1200 fps. It's a superbly accurate load, completely controllable, even at rapid fire, and is certainly not wimpy by any means. I've shot many hundreds over the years. Switch over to nuclear loads when confronting larger beasts than humans is possible.

SDGlock23
April 30, 2013, 11:11 AM
You're missing a couple of key points, how do you plan to conceal the 41 mag or a .40/6" that you wrote of? Also, why would you choose to carry a 265gr WFN/1450fps in a populated area? Does your .41 mag match 10mm split times?

If you are loading to SAAMI specs, I find your .40 chronograph results to be very generous.

Unless one is shooting all copper bullets, .40 cal JHP bullets should be kept in the <1300fps range to retain bullet integrity at personal defense distances.

Here's a decent review of a 10mm/1911, 125gr Barnes (all copper Double Tap ammunition) bullet knocking on 1600 fps. Watch the video and the recoil is very manageable

No plans to conceal any 6" anything. I brought up 6" simply because that's a common barrel length between them (6" revolver, 6" 10mm and 6" 40). I wouldn't carry a .41 Mag 265gr/1450fps in a populated area, the only purpose for that is essentially to represent full power loads in each.

You speak of SAAMI specs, but I can tell you this that 1400-1450 fps 10mm 180gr is overpressure. Is a 180gr .40 at 1300+? According to Hodgdon, Longshot will do 1150 from a .40 S&W with several K psi to spare. That load from a 4" G23 averages just over 1150, from a 5.3" G35 it's above 1250 fps and from a 6" barrel it is indeed above 1300 fps in a .40 S&W.

I agree that 1300 fps is about the most .40 cal JHP's should be driven...well at least 180gr-200gr. Some of the more shallow cavity Gold Dots like the 155gr and 165gr will hold up to more, but not a whole lot more, 1400-1450 fps for them IMHO.

hariph creek
April 30, 2013, 11:51 AM
I carry a 10mm, when I can dress to conceal it. Otherwise I carry a 9mm. But, I'd rather have the 10mm!!

Handguns, in general, aren't nearly a effective as we'd like to think.
I'll take any edge I can get.
You don't get into "too powerful" until somewhere around .44 mag. Even then SD loads are generally dialed back, a bit.

As already mentioned, 10mm is comparable to .357 mag. Only with less perceived recoil, faster reloads, and higher capacity. I also find a full size 10mm conceals better than a full size .357 mag.

Most SD loads for 10mm are "watered down." You have to go out of your way get stuff that really reaches the 10mm's potential.

When we get into magnum velocity cartridges, with properly designed hollow points. Velocity provides relatively controlled expansion and penetration. I assume we're not talking hunting our FMJ rounds?

The only drawback is that even a compact 10mm is fairly big. Plus 10mm is long enough to require a .45acp length grip. Not so great for those with small hands.

CPLofMARINES
April 30, 2013, 09:29 PM
SDGlock23; I don't have a chrono, but let's look at a
Factory .41 Mag out of a 4" barrel and a hot 10mm out
Of a 5" barrel. I would agree a hot .41 Mag from a longer
Barrel would far exceed a 10mm. The topic is SD, and I
Think a service size handgun would be a more realistic
Comparison. Not to mention capacity. Now, I have always
Felt a G20 would be a pretty good choice for a woods gun.
I'm sure the reasons are self apparent, if someone might
Have a need. But that is a different topic. Back to if a 10mm
Is too much or just fine for SD. Like I've said, .357 Mag
Power, starting out with a bigger hole. Also, it's a cartridge
With more or less if you want it to be.

Semper Fi

2zulu1
May 1, 2013, 02:49 AM
No plans to conceal any 6" anything. I brought up 6" simply because that's a common barrel length between them (6" revolver, 6" 10mm and 6" 40). I wouldn't carry a .41 Mag 265gr/1450fps in a populated area, the only purpose for that is essentially to represent full power loads in each.

You speak of SAAMI specs, but I can tell you this that 1400-1450 fps 10mm 180gr is overpressure. Is a 180gr .40 at 1300+? According to Hodgdon, Longshot will do 1150 from a .40 S&W with several K psi to spare. That load from a 4" G23 averages just over 1150, from a 5.3" G35 it's above 1250 fps and from a 6" barrel it is indeed above 1300 fps in a .40 S&W.

I agree that 1300 fps is about the most .40 cal JHP's should be driven...well at least 180gr-200gr. Some of the more shallow cavity Gold Dots like the 155gr and 165gr will hold up to more, but not a whole lot more, 1400-1450 fps for them IMHO.
Not sure where to begin. Handloaded 10mm/180gr JHPs 1400fps+ doesn't necessarily put it it in the over pressure category, but XTPs and Gold Dots certainly fragment at those velocities. Going back about seven years and using Hornady, IMR 800X, load data for a 175gr Silvertip, I got 1398fps, ES 37fps, SD 13fps through a 6" KKM barrel. The Silvertip fragmented so much that I stopped developing the load.

I don't see 6" barrels in 10mm or .40 as being common. I've tested .40 cal JHPs through a CX-4 Storm and found the increased velocity through the 16" barrel overwhelmed JHP designs.

The 155gr/165gr Gold Dots you thought were shallow cavity designs are in fact deep cavity designs. At this time, Speer does not make a shallow cavity Gold Dot in .40 cal. If you look in the upper right corner of the yellow boxes you'll notice the bullet and cavity outline, deep cavity for the 165gr Gold Dot and shallow cavity 125gr GD.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/IMG_20130430_111615_803.jpg

Visually, it's very easy to compare the cavity size differences. Bullet designers increase the hollow cavity area to get hollow point bullets to reliably expand at lower velocities. The blued magazine on the left is loaded with .40 S&W 165gr Gold Dots, a visit to the ATK website will give you all the FBI protocol data for this LE ammunition. The .38 Super, single stack magazine on the right is loaded with 125gr GDs ~mid 1400s.

Since this thread is about using the 10mm for self defense, we'll compare the 10mm with the 357 mag and 38 Super, all running bullets in the 1400s, as close as I could match them.

Shallow cavity 125gr GD @1436fps, 38 Super;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/38Super125GD1436fps05321240grsrecovered003.jpg

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/38Super125GD1436fps05321240grsrecovered006.jpg

Text book symmetrical expansion, good for about 16" of soft tissue penetration.

10mm is often compared to the .357 mag as having more power, however one describes power. Old tech, exposed lead tip 158gr Winchester JHP, 1437fps;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/357mag158grWinJHP1437fps005.jpg

Another text book symmetrical expansion, slight weight loss, but good for about 20" of penetration. Sectional density of this bullet is about the same as the 10mm 200gr.

Now, 10mm 155gr Gold Dot, 1420fps;

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g474/aztrekker511/10mm155GD1420fps007.jpg

Deep cavity Gold Dots don't perform well at velocities designed for shallow cavities, in this test, recovered weight was only 132.9grs. Bullet also over expanded, think opening a parachute, plus, the loss of one petal would likely cause the bullet to tumble. Penetration good for ~8.6".

For 10mm handloading, I target JHPs to 1250-1265fps for reliable expansion at personal defense distances. The exception to this being the 125gr/155gr Barnes bullet, I'll be testing Double Tap ammunition soon.

SDGlock23
May 1, 2013, 12:59 PM
Good pictures there. As for the 6" barrels, I chose those because they're available for all of them, I could have chosen a 4", but while I know of 4" .40's I don't know of any 4" 10mm's, but close (G29 vs G23), or maybe 4.5" vs 4.6", etc. Most 10mm guys to buy the 6" barrel since it's velocity they're after, that's why I chose the 6". Common? Yes in terms of availability, not so much in terms of being a top choice for everyday carry.

When I loaded for the 10mm, I was able to break 1400 fps from a 6+" barrel (180gr), but I was using loads that were over book, but I'm sure it can get pretty close depending on powder. Longshot would get me around 1265-ish from the G20, I can't find all of the data I had for the 6", but could see where high 1300's would be possible.

As for the Gold Dots, I didn't say the 155gr and 165gr were shallow compared to say a 125gr .355gr 357 Sig, but "shallowER" (I said MORE shallow...maybe not a good grammar choice :)) than the 180gr Gold Dot. Your results are exactly what I would expect, more penetration with the .355" Gold Dot and .357" JHP compared to the lower sectional density 155gr .400". The true shallow cavity Gold Dots do hold up better for sure, I simply should have said that the shallower the cavity, it seems the better it holds up compared to deeper cavities.

PabloJ
May 1, 2013, 01:12 PM
No. The Federal 'Personal Defense' 180gr JHPs are about equal to 185gr .45ACP+P loads. I have never heard .45Auto being too much gun for personal defense.
What amazes me about most 10mm guys is that like 9mm Luger guys they try to "squeeze" every fps out of the cartridge.

Certaindeaf
May 1, 2013, 01:23 PM
No. The Federal 'Personal Defense' 180gr JHPs are about equal to 185gr .45ACP+P loads. I have never heard .45Auto being too much gun for personal defense.
What amazes me about most 10mm guys is that like 9mm Luger guys they try to "squeeze" every fps out of the cartridge.
Well I don't know about that.. the common theme these days, it seems/is portrayed that anything +P or ++ is akin to suicide given all the pocket gats everyone carries.

usurp31
May 1, 2013, 01:28 PM
Not too much and certainly *more than* enough; pick the right ammo for the situation and you're good to go.

breakingcontact
May 1, 2013, 04:27 PM
"too much?"

No, no caliber is magic. Only big downside is if you don't practice with it as much as you would 9/40/45 or whatever.

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