Home defense load for 9mm


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PGT
April 22, 2013, 11:14 PM
I've got a bunch of Winchester Ranger 147 grain Bonded Hollow Points (Law Enforcement overruns supposedly) as well as Speer Lawman and Blazer Brass to practice with. Is the Winchester stuff more than sufficient for HD use or should I try and pick up a couple boxes of more specialized stuff?

I don't mind paying a premium for stuff as I'll only be shooting enough of it to ensure it works properly in the gun I decide to keep in our bedroom (probably the Bersa). Thoughts?

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Madcap_Magician
April 22, 2013, 11:42 PM
RA9B is a good load. RA9T is also a good load. I would consider it perfectly good ammo for self defense.

Bobson
April 22, 2013, 11:51 PM
I've heard great things about the Ranger BHPs. IIRC, Wyo highway patrol issues those to the troopers. From what I understand, they're very similar to other popular bonded hollowpoints like Speer Gold Dots. I think the Ranger BHPs would be a fine choice for HD.

I don't know much about Bersa. Hope this doesn't come across as condescending, but make sure its a reliable firearm.

PGT
April 22, 2013, 11:53 PM
Of course....if its not reliable, it won't stay. Everything I've read so far is that its a great carry gun but I'll only be using it for a nightstand gun.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/GunStuff/th_IMG_0479.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/PatagonianGT/media/GunStuff/IMG_0479.jpg.html)

rcmodel
April 23, 2013, 12:03 AM
Law Enforcement overruns supposedlyWell, one would think if it was good enough for real cops, who get in real life or death shootings way more often then you do?

Then it would be good enough to keep in a bedside gun that will probably never be fired in anger the rest of your life.

Now, I'll let you in on a little known secret I have learned over the last 50+ years.
Truth be known, and a little known secret?
There are no 'Magic Bullets'!

Only good gun handling skills, and front sight focus.

If you can handle the gun and hit what you shoot at inside 10 feet?
Any gun or load will do about as well as the next one inside your bedroom, if you can stand and deliver.

rc

PGT
April 23, 2013, 12:07 AM
Right. I'm concerned the kindergartner in her bedroom across the hallway, i.e., I want to know I'm not going to be shooting through the perp and endangering her. That's going to be a concern the way the house is set up though she's a bit adjacent to the stairs. We've got security cameras front and back and an early warning system:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/th_398872_3565720460237_1189674868_33424440_123710301_n.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/PatagonianGT/media/398872_3565720460237_1189674868_33424440_123710301_n.jpg.html) http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/th_389186_3627720770206_1189674868_33454769_1449832900_n.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/PatagonianGT/media/389186_3627720770206_1189674868_33454769_1449832900_n.jpg.html)

9mmepiphany
April 23, 2013, 12:25 AM
My two 9mm defensive loadings are the Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ and the Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot.

You should pick a premium JHP load which functions reliably through your chosen gun and with which you can repeatedly place accurate shots on a discreet target very quickly

mljdeckard
April 23, 2013, 12:38 AM
I would use it and not worry. Unless you want to upgrade to an AR and use something like Hornady TAP, you would have to do a LOT of testing between a lot of loads to see a significant difference between 9mm rounds for overpenetration at all.

Water-Man
April 23, 2013, 01:05 AM
Another load that's as good or better than the ones already mentioned is Federal HST 147gr. HP.

rcmodel
April 23, 2013, 01:18 AM
I want to know I'm not going to be shooting through the perp and endangering her.Well then, I would not use heavy for caliber 147 grain bullets then.

A lighter faster 115 grain load is more likely to open up and put on the drag brakes, whether you hit or miss the perp.

A 9mm 147 is about as heavy and long as you can shoot in a 9mm pistol.
It will plough through things a lighter faster JHP bullet will probably stop in.

rc

Hilljun
April 23, 2013, 01:19 AM
A shotgun with some birdshot will not go through the wall and will be better for hitting a moving target while your half asleep. My suggestion run the scenario through in your head before it happens. Another thought even if you can hit with the 9 at 3 am can your wife or girlfriend. ( you never know these days)

rcmodel
April 23, 2013, 01:25 AM
A shotgun with some birdshot will not go through the wallOf course it will, unless it's a brick wall.

A normal sheetrock wall will not stop a load of birdshot inside a normal size bedroom.

rc

bigfatdave
April 23, 2013, 01:34 AM
rcmodel is, as usual, correct.

I think that many of the posters, including the OP, need to get themselves over to www.theboxotruth.com and read up on various loads and drywall/barrier penetration.
Follow up with brassfetcher for performance in gelatin (which makes a pretty good meat analog)

These questions have been answered, with actual ammo, realistic fake walls, simulated (sometimes real) meat, and pictures.

Anything capable of causing real immediate damage to an adult human will sail through drywall as if it weren't there for many layers. There is no magic bullet, not heavy loads, not light loads, not birdshot, not flaregun flares, not frangible rounds, not FMJ, not JHP, not BHP, not squishy-ball HP, not rimfire, not centerfire, not pinfire, not blackpowder, not fixed metallic cartridges ... ... etc

Hilljun
April 23, 2013, 01:57 AM
I went to the box of truth and there conclusion on birdshot was it will not pass through the wall with enough force to strike the vital organs. While a 9 mm would. A refresher course never hurt anyone.

SabbathWolf
April 23, 2013, 02:24 AM
...Truth be known, and a little known secret?
There are no 'Magic Bullets'!...




Quoted for truth.

Water-Man
April 23, 2013, 02:33 AM
Yes but some work alot better than others.

SabbathWolf
April 23, 2013, 02:35 AM
I've got a bunch of Winchester Ranger 147 grain Bonded Hollow Points (Law Enforcement overruns supposedly) as well as Speer Lawman and Blazer Brass to practice with. Is the Winchester stuff more than sufficient for HD use or should I try and pick up a couple boxes of more specialized stuff?

I don't mind paying a premium for stuff as I'll only be shooting enough of it to ensure it works properly in the gun I decide to keep in our bedroom (probably the Bersa). Thoughts?

Ranger ammo is pretty good stuff in most of it's forms.
I have a whole lot of Ranger-T ammo myself and trust it completely to function just as well as any other decent modern brand.

The only things you really need to worry about is:
a) Does it function reliably in "your" gun?
b) Is it accurate out of "your" gun?
c) Have you practiced enough shooting it out of "your' gun to be competent with it?

Other than that, pretty much "all" 9mm ammo will punch right through sheetrock like already mentioned. That is one of those hazards that's almost unavoidable.

SabbathWolf
April 23, 2013, 02:37 AM
Yes but some work alot better than others.
True.

Gabes220
April 23, 2013, 03:34 AM
Right. I'm concerned the kindergartner in her bedroom across the hallway, i.e., I want to know I'm not going to be shooting through the perp and endangering her. [...]

As soon as i read this, many options flew out the window. Over penetration is a serious issue. The OP mentioned over penetration through an intruder, but you must also consider over penetration of rounds that miss their target. Many rounds fired in defense miss their target. Even police have something like a 30% hit rate.

Many particular loads that have been mentioned on this thread will DEFINITELY over penetrate in the OPs hypothetical use for this ammunition.

This is my recommendation:

Guard Dog by Federal
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=936
PD9GRD - 105g 9mm EFMJ

Review by TNOUTDOORS (has an awesome channel and i trust his reviews)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7f69skz9g

Clearly an under-penetrating round. Depends on if you are willing to trade minimized performance for an also minimized risk of over penetration and endangering a loved on.


Your call.

PGT
April 23, 2013, 07:29 AM
Thanks all. I've read just about every article on Box of Truth at least once over the years. It's what first got me interested in buying a K31 actually. :)

allaroundhunter
April 23, 2013, 09:21 AM
After learning that your daughter might be in the line of fire behind an attacker, that all of a sudden made the 147 gr rounds a bad choice. In all honesty, it would make me ditch the pistol completely for that purpose and use my AR. However, seeing as you and I are not in the same boat, I would recommend as light of a round as you can get that is a HP and not +P.

Sent from my HTC One X

Water-Man
April 23, 2013, 10:03 AM
Rarely can you have your 'cake and eat it too' and that especially applies to ammo.

The most important part in home defense SHOULD BE to stop the threat. If you don't do that the safety of yourself and your family is gone.

If your ammo doesn't penetrate the BG deep enough, chances are he/she will NOT be stopped.

So all this discussion about using something that will not go through a wall etc. should not be THE priority and the OP should concentrate on using a defense load that has the best chance of stopping the perp.

Certaindeaf
April 23, 2013, 10:13 AM
There are people and children everywhere. Do what professionals do and use a Judge loaded with #9 shot. that was a joke

Lj1941
April 23, 2013, 10:27 AM
If you are comcerned about overpenetration,think shotgun.I would think that a "Judge" or a "Govenor" would be the ideal night stand weapon.:)

golden
April 23, 2013, 12:03 PM
PGT,

I use a 9m.m. for my home gun and it depends on which gun I am using. In my large 9m.m. pistols like the BERETTA 92, SIG 226 or WALTHER P-99, I use FEDERAL +P+ HYDRO SHOK 124 grain ammo.
In my smaller 9m.m. pistols, like the SIG 225 and SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact, I use either standard velocity HYDRO SHOK 124 grain ammo or FEDERAL 115 grain jhp.
They are all proven loads on the street with long records in police shootings and are 100% reliable in my guns.

The +P+ HYDRO SHOK was my issue load when I carried a 9m.m. for the I&NS.

I have found all these loads shoot well in my guns and just use the standard FEDERAL ball ammo for practice. It has also proven accurate in my guns and none of these loads has a known overpenetration issue.

The really important thing in my mind is to practice on a regular basis and use realistic scenarios when doing so.

I think you will find that your ammo selection is less important the getting the practice using it.

Jim

Elessar
April 23, 2013, 12:20 PM
Any handgun round capable of reliably penetrating clothing and the human body to a sufficient depth will also penetrate interior walls of a home. If you have a round that won't penetrate a couple layers of dry wall, then you have a round that is sub optimal for self defense.

Hilljun
April 23, 2013, 12:46 PM
One thing I have not seen mentioned which may be because it just common knowledge. Which I wouldn't know since i'm not commen. Is whatever gun and ammo you go with Provide it with some light. Know your target. Their was a couple in my CCL class that told a story that really drove having a light home. One night their young son came in their room with his pillow over his head. The man thought it was an intruder and went for his gun. Fortunately the child reached him before he reached the gun. He said had he got to the gun sooner he would have shot his own child in his bedroom simply because he was going to shot a shadow.

smalls
April 23, 2013, 02:54 PM
I really can't believe this hasn't been said, yet.

This isn't about ammo selection. This is about Home Defense Tactics.

Know your target AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.

Why the hell would you shoot if your kids room is behind an intruder? That sounds unbelievably stupid to me.

You need to have "lanes of fire" laid out. So that you know if you need to fire, nothing important is getting hit if you miss or an overpenetration occurs.

FitGunner
April 23, 2013, 04:29 PM
This is about Home Defense Tactics. Know your target AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.

I agree completely. Run through drills for "what if..." situations. Think about strategies to implement depending on the time of day, who is home, where they are, what to do when the police arrive, etc. Coming up with different plans for various situations will make you better prepared. You can even make a mental check list to go through so that it becomes routine if you hear that "bump in the night."

PGT
April 23, 2013, 04:42 PM
The +P+ HYDRO SHOK was my issue load when I carried a 9m.m. for the I&NS.



Its spelled "Hydra-Shok"; I should know...my uncle was president of the company and won the 1986 DOJ competition to become the issue load for Federal LEO's before he and his business partner licensed the design to ATK/Federal (and eventually sold the business and patent). Good stuff, indeed. :)

I really can't believe this hasn't been said, yet.

This isn't about ammo selection. This is about Home Defense Tactics.

Know your target AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.

Why the hell would you shoot if your kids room is behind an intruder? That sounds unbelievably stupid to me.

I didn't say that....I said "adjacent to the stairwell". Besides...intruders aren't inanimate objects. Its a dynamic situation....I know where my daughter's room is and where her bed is within and the chances of there being an issue are less than 1%.

This IS about ammo selection actually; please allow me to decide the purpose of my post. :p

smalls
April 23, 2013, 04:59 PM
This IS about ammo selection actually; please allow me to decide the purpose of my post.

No matter what ammo you choose, it WILL go through a wall.

PedalBiker
April 23, 2013, 09:27 PM
Right. I'm concerned the kindergartner in her bedroom across the hallway, i.e., I want to know I'm not going to be shooting through the perp and endangering her. That's going to be a concern the way the house is set up though she's a bit adjacent to the stairs. We've got security cameras front and back and an early warning system:

Hornady Critical Defense is a good, light weight, lower penetration (still dangerous in the house) load. Federal makes self defense loads that use lighter bullets (High Energy, Low recoil)

I agree with many others, you can't count on walls stopping anything worthy of self defense. And you can't count on using the perp as a backstop either.

I don't have a particular load for "at home" no matter where you are you need to worry about what's behind your target. No matter where you are you want to stop the threat with as few shots as possible (and of course stop the threat).

Nothing that I'm aware of is much safer than standard loads while offering good defensive performance. Although, the 223 using something like 55g hollow points may come close to an ideal indoor load.

Bush Pilot
April 23, 2013, 10:25 PM
I went to the box of truth and there conclusion on birdshot was it will not pass through the wall with enough force to strike the vital organs. While a 9 mm would. A refresher course never hurt anyone.
I wouldn't want to test your theory about the birdshot, would you?

USAF_Vet
April 23, 2013, 10:37 PM
Havent read all the recommendations, but if you are really concerned about overpenetration through bad guys and walls, perhaps consider the 47 & 50 grain lightweight frangible defense rounds. They are expensive, to say the least, about $2 per round at my LGS (but that's all they have on the shelf), but they are the safest bet based on your concern.

dprice3844444
April 24, 2013, 12:38 AM
still have my black talons

bigfatdave
April 24, 2013, 01:22 AM
still have my black talons
because you bought into the media hype ... what? 15 years ago? 20?

frank c
April 24, 2013, 02:12 AM
I carry 9mm winchester ranger 127 gr.STX +p+ in my smith & wesson M&P 9c compact and can say its very good reliable ammo:)

C0untZer0
April 24, 2013, 11:16 AM
Hasn't anyone said "buy a shotgun" yet ?

9mmepiphany
April 24, 2013, 12:35 PM
Why would they when this is the Handguns:Autoloader section and this is a discussion on 9mm ammunition?

Hilljun
April 24, 2013, 12:36 PM
Hasn't anyone said "buy a shotgun" yet ?
ya see my post. It was not received well. Every home defence trainer I have ever talked to says shotgun at night though.

Inebriated
April 24, 2013, 12:43 PM
Why would you use a JHP as a replacement for Rule 4?

It sounds to me like you need a good home defense plan, and good ammo, instead of spitting peas at the intruder.

I keep 147gr HST's in all my defensive 9mm's. If you want a weak penetrating bullet, then look at Federal's 105gr or Hornady Critical Defense (not Critical Duty, which is actually quite hot).

Pilot
April 24, 2013, 12:50 PM
I just replaced my Corbons with Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain +p for home defense which are typically in my CZ-75B, and Beretta 92FS. I have no kids in the house.

PGT
April 24, 2013, 01:29 PM
Why would they when this is the Handguns:Autoloader section and this is a discussion on 9mm ammunition?
Exactly. I had a Mossy and sold it. The pattern it produces at household distances is so tight as to be slightly more useful than a pistol, yet harder to wield in tight spaces. BoT and Hickok45 on Youtube have good demonstrations of this.....4-6" pattern and 20ft out of most short barreled HD shotguns.

loose noose
April 24, 2013, 02:26 PM
I like the Hornady Critical Defense load especially at night, as you don't have the blinding muzzle flash, so a follow-up shot if in order is easily accessible. In fact In my class I teach two rounds in rapid succession at an attacking perpetrator to the thoracic cavity. I have grandchildren that some time spend the night with us, however their rooms are not in line with my course of fire.;) Further I like the testing I've done on that round as far as penetration thru clothing.:)

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