I Designed a Pistol


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CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 07:00 PM
I was bored last night and had been kicking around the idea of what I would want in an ideal handgun.

Here's what I came up with:
http://s17.postimg.org/j6875knrz/espweb.png

-Polymer frame, with rubberized grips. The grips have relief channels that direct sweat and grease clear of the shooter's hand.
-CZ-75 clone overall internal mechanism and design, with very low bore high axis and high grip, substantially reducing recoil. The slide rides inside the frame, as in the CZ. This improves accuracy.
-Single action only, with short, straight trigger. Designed to be carried cocked and locked.
-1911 style grip angle and modern 1911 style beavertail.
-9x19mm caliber, suitable for +P+ use.
-Match grade, bushingless bull barrel.
-External, bar stock claw extractor.
-Dual nested, captive recoil springs.
-Tritium illuminated Heinie style front and rear sights.
-NATO railed dustcover.
-Slide machined for slide-riding mini red dot. The slide also has forward relief cuts to make up for the added weight of an RDS and ensure reliable cycling without any changes in recoil spring, etc. If no RDS is installed, a small, flush fitting weight block (pictured) is installed in its mount so that the pistol does not know the difference if/when one is installed.

Tell me what you think.

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M-Cameron
April 25, 2013, 07:07 PM
Something about mounting a Red dot on I a reciprocating slide seems like an awfully bad idea....

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 07:09 PM
Something about mounting a Red dot on I a reciprocating slide seems like an awfully bad idea....
It is done frequently and done well:
http://tsdcombatsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/TSDGlockonaRock.jpeg
http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/411547870.jpg
http://www.gun-one.com/M&P-with-Fastfire.jpg

Potatohead
April 25, 2013, 07:30 PM
Commander,
tell me about those red dot thingys..how do you adjust the dot to match your point of impact? do you like them better than just regular old sights? why?

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 07:33 PM
Commander,
tell me about those red dot thingys..how do you adjust the dot to match your point of impact? do you like them better than just regular old sights? why?
The dot is adjusted just like a scope. Dials for windage and elevation (though they are flush fitted and operated with a coin or screwdriver). To adjust it accurately one would fire from a supported position or, better yet, a machine rest.

I like them better than regular old sights because of the flexibility, though I currently cannot afford one. I would include mounts for them on any new production pistol were I a real gun designer, as they are the way of the future.

Inebriated
April 25, 2013, 07:35 PM
I like the concept.

Make it.

Potatohead
April 25, 2013, 07:47 PM
thx commander. how much is a decent one and if i was looking for one, i call it a "red dot sight" right? do you specify pistol or rifle or are they interchangeable? can you mount one on any regular size pistol?

Inebriated
April 25, 2013, 08:00 PM
A quality micro dot like a Trijicon RMR will run you about $450, but you need your slide milled out to accept a base, or you can get a base that uses your rear sight dovetail. At least for Glocks, you can. Not sure about other guns. I'd want to keep my iron sights as back-up, though.

batex
April 25, 2013, 08:15 PM
I suspect these red dot sights are the wave of the future. Smith and Wesson recently came out with a M&P model (M&P CORE...Competition Optic Ready ?????) with the slide milled from the factor to accept these red dot sights. It still has iron sights as well. I know FN also has a factory model also with the slide milled for a red dot. Both the FN and S&W M&P have a filler plate if one chooses not to install a red dot. Pretty nice...I'd like to have one myself.

btg3
April 25, 2013, 08:51 PM
I like the concept.

Make it.
Correct. The OP has rendered a concept.
The design is yet to be realized.

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 08:53 PM
Correct. The OP has rendered a concept.
The design is yet to be realized.
I'll will grant you that semantic point. However, given that the design is essentially a single action CZ75 in different shell, one could say it has been realized.

btg3
April 25, 2013, 08:59 PM
I suspect these red dot sights are the wave of the future.
After putting one on my Buckmark, I'm not anxious to outfit my M&Ps. But I'm still on the learning curve with focusing on the target and bringing the dot to that target. The habit of focusing on the front sight is hard to break and I fall into focusing on the dot. Also, I'm concerned about whether the new technique will detract from using iron sights. Will I learn to use both, or should I stick with one?

btg3
April 25, 2013, 09:03 PM
essentially a single action CZ75 in different shell
Tell it to the poor guy that's told to go make it. :rolleyes:

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 09:05 PM
Tell it to the poor guy that's told to go make it. :rolleyes:
People have been cloning and modding the CZ design for a long time. I'll grant you substantial time and money would be required to tool up for this, but this is all in fun.

Rubber_Duck
April 25, 2013, 09:09 PM
The low-bore-axis design reminds me of this:

http://www.arsenalfirearms.com/products/strike-pistol-system/


http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/russia/1340218633.jpg
http://ttag.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ArsenalA.jpg

(of course they compare it to a Sig which as a brand is known for high bore axis:rolleyes:)

WC145
April 25, 2013, 09:09 PM
Interesting concept gun.
As far as the red dots go, I've been running a Trijicon RMR02 on my duty gun (FNP45 Tactical) for about a year now. I also have a modified FNS9 with the same sight. There is a learning curve but once you get the hang of it, it's just like using a red dot on a long gun - focus on the target, superimpose the dot on it, squeeze the trigger. I had qual's yesterday and today, shot the FNP45T and patrol rifle yesterday, Colt Commander with iron sights today, no issues transitioning from one to the other. It'll take a while to catch one but eventually they'll be as accepted as red dots on long guns.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V10oD75Qzk4/T0oll-vf3KI/AAAAAAAAD9I/QlGu0C0zP5g/s640/SDC11843.JPG

guyfromohio
April 25, 2013, 09:10 PM
CZ P-07 Duty is actually pretty close.

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 09:11 PM
The low-bore-axis design reminds me of this:

http://www.arsenalfirearms.com/products/strike-pistol-system/


http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/russia/1340218633.jpg
http://ttag.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ArsenalA.jpg

(of course they compare it to a Sig which as a brand is known for high bore axis:rolleyes:)
Behold.... marketing!

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 09:12 PM
CZ P-07 Duty is actually pretty close.
That is not a full sized gun, IIRC. Nor does it have many of the features I listed.

I'm not knocking it. And I do like it for the fact that it proves the CZ design plays well with polymer.

Rubber_Duck
April 25, 2013, 09:13 PM
Behold.... marketing!

Just saying sandwiching it between a Glock and a 1911 would be a better comparison.

Carry on.;)

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 09:14 PM
Just saying sandwiching it between a Glock and a 1911 would be a better comparison.

Carry on.;)
I know, I'm mocking them, not you.

tarosean
April 25, 2013, 09:29 PM
I suspect these red dot sights are the wave of the future.

I'm sure with the "tactical" crowd..

The people actually running their guns (competition) use a frame mount as 1000's of a second count..

btg3
April 25, 2013, 09:29 PM
Behold.... marketing!
Do we have a legal resource that might check on patent infringement? :cool:

Certaindeaf
April 25, 2013, 09:34 PM
That's the ugliest Hi-Power I ever did see.

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 09:36 PM
I'm sure with the "tactical" crowd..

The people actually running their guns (competition) use a frame mount as 1000's of a second count..
Competition innovation trickles down to the tactical crowd. Look at all the stuff that started a competition mod for guns like the 1911 that is considered a must have now.

That being said, slide ride is the way to go for tactical pistols, where 10000ths of a second don't matter and size and weight constraints do.

tarosean
April 25, 2013, 09:50 PM
That being said, slide ride is the way to go for tactical pistols, where 10000ths of a second don't matter and size and weight constraints do.

Thousands of seconds on the street may cost you your life, a lot more important than finishing 2nd or 3rd. It's your dime though.

CmdrSlander
April 25, 2013, 09:52 PM
Thousands of seconds on the street may cost you your life, a lot more important than finishing 2nd or 3rd. It's your dime though.
It might, but it's simply not practical. There's a balance that has to be struck. Also, if the slide has relief cuts like mine does, and therefore cycles in the same amount of time as a slide without optics, then it really is a moot point.

Rubber_Duck
April 25, 2013, 10:11 PM
Some people are CCWing mini RDS on smaller autos like G19s. Trijicon RMRs are reliable enough to be used for more than just competition.

btg3
April 26, 2013, 07:48 AM
Thousands of seconds on the street
Doing the math...
1000 seconds = a million 1000ths of a second ;)

Walt Sherrill
April 26, 2013, 10:51 AM
-CZ-75 clone overall internal mechanism and design, with very low bore high axis and high grip, substantially reducing recoil. The slide rides inside the frame, as in the CZ. This improves accuracy.

I added the emphasis (bolding) above. I've heard this claim time and again, but have never seen anyone offer PROOF that the claim is true. A number of guns, over the years, have used the "slide inside the frame" technique, and not all of them are super-accurate.

One theory of why "inside the frame" is better is that as the gun heats up, the slide/frame fit becomes tighter. Many knowledgeable shooter and gunsmiths argue that slide/frame fit only accounts for a small part of a guns accuracy potential -- maybe less than 10%. Barrel-to-slide fit, and consistent lockup, on the other hand, is critical to accuracy.

I owned a SIG P-210-6 for a number of years, and shot it quite a bit. It is the "slide-inside-the-rails" gun cited most often in this discussion. That darned gun was a tack-driver from the day I bought it. It came with a proof target showing a 1.75" group at 50 meters (roughly 55 yards), but I could never match that. It didn't seem to get more accurate as the day went on -- it was the same. The reason the SIG P-210s are so darned accurate is the care with which they were made and fit -- the are like the proverbial Swiss Watch, with no slop or poorly fit connections.

My CZs, and I've had a bunch, are very accurate. As is my SIG P-226 X FIVE. The CZ slide rides inside the frame, while the P-226 X Five slide rides outside (as do most Bullseye guns, which tend to set the accuracy standard.)

Low bore axis is a good way to reduce flip, but you don't have to have the slide riding inside the frame to have that...

tell me about those red dot thingys..how do you adjust the dot to match your point of impact? do you like them better than just regular old sights?

You adjust them like you would any scope or sight... as explained above, by working from a rest. But don't confuse the RED DOT with a LASER.

A LASER projects a red dot, and it's also adjustable as described.

Red Dot sights -- some are shown in the photos -- have dots on a see-through screen (sort of like a scope, but the unit is obviously much, much smaller than an optical scope.) Both the red dot and LASER allow quick shots, but the LASER is arguably better for accuracy at a distance, while the typical RED DOT sight is for more-rapid use at moderate ranges (as the red dot can obscure distant targets.)


.

btg3
April 26, 2013, 01:02 PM
the red dot can obscure distant targets
As a red dot newbie, I understand this to be a function of the size of the dot -- which is specified as "minute of angle". Some red dot scopes specify a single dot size, whereas others offer 2 or 3 sizes and various reticles -- with the caveat that changing the dot/reticle may require re-adjustment of the scope's point of aim.

Also, the red dot is not visible in the scope unless your eye is somewhat aligned with the scope. In fact, the red dot can be elusive at first, but with practice the dot comes up to the eye just as iron sights do once some proficiency is established. Regardless, with all else equal, the red dot offers quicker target acquisition and follow up shots in addition to being friendly to older eyes that better focus on the target (using red dot) than on the front sight (using iron, or fiber optic sights).

Walt Sherrill
April 26, 2013, 02:20 PM
-Polymer frame, with rubberized grips. The grips have relief channels that direct sweat and grease clear of the shooter's hand.
-CZ-75 clone overall internal mechanism and design, with very low bore high axis and high grip, substantially reducing recoil. The slide rides inside the frame, as in the CZ. This improves accuracy.
-Single action only, with short, straight trigger. Designed to be carried cocked and locked.
-1911 style grip angle and modern 1911 style beavertail.
-9x19mm caliber, suitable for +P+ use.
-Match grade, bushingless bull barrel.
-External, bar stock claw extractor.
-Dual nested, captive recoil springs.
-Tritium illuminated Heinie style front and rear sights.
-NATO railed dustcover.
-Slide machined for slide-riding mini red dot. The slide also has forward relief cuts to make up for the added weight of an RDS and ensure reliable cycling without any changes in recoil spring, etc. If no RDS is installed, a small, flush fitting weight block (pictured) is installed in its mount so that the pistol does not know the difference if/when one is installed.
When someone mentioned the P-07, you replied:

That is not a full sized gun, IIRC. Nor does it have many of the features I listed.
The newly announced P-09 is a full-sized version of the same gun. It has many of the features you describe, including the NATO-compatible accessory rail. It also has the ability to offer DA/SA carry (starting from hammer down), or cocked and locked carry, or a decocker mechanism in place of the safety, changeable by the user. That is pretty innovative.

Several questions for you?

Why is the 1911 GRIP ANGLE superior to the the standard CZ-75 Grip angle or the similar angle used in the Browning HP?

I'll agree that there's nothing wrong with the 1911 grip angle, but most shooters speak more highly of the CZ/BHP grip angles when "natural feel" or "pointability" are discussed.

If you like the 1911 Grip angle, and want the CZ mechanism you could use the CZ-40B as your starting point -- as that's what it offers. I've had one, and it's OK, but I don't think the CZ-40B's 1911 grip angle (which is what Colt specified when they worked with CZ to design it) is in any way SUPERIOR to the CZ or BHP grip angle. As good, maybe, but not better.

Why use a dual nested, captive recoil spring?

What functionality does that add or what problems does that prevent? I've only encountered "nested" springs in a couple of high-end guns and in some compacts -- but not in what might be described as a FULL SIZE service pistol. Field stripping could be a bit faster/easier with a captive spring.

Why a "match grade" bar stock claw extractor?

I'll admit I'm not the most well-read or experienced gun enthusiast, but I've never really heard of a "match grade extractor" before. What makes a "match grade" external extractor better than a typical external extractor?

NOTE: If you CLONE the CZ internals, you're basically taking a gun designed to be DA/SA gun and asking it work as a SA gun; why not use the BHP fire control mechanism as your starting point? That would be simpler. Or, better yet, use the SIG P-210 as your starting point. Both of those designs are simpler than the CZ, and the SIG has a very innovative fire control assembly that can be taken out as a unit for service or cleaning.

Why SINGLE ACTION ONLY, carried cocked locked? Why not the option of either? (How is that superior to a good striker-fired weapon?) If you want the option of BOTH carry methods, then the CZ mechanism makes more sense. As noted earlier, the CZ P-09 offers the potential of either, or the availability of a decocker.

Walt Sherrill
April 26, 2013, 02:27 PM
Also, the red dot is not visible in the scope unless your eye is somewhat aligned with the scope. In fact, the red dot can be elusive at first,

All true, but finding the front sight can be elusive, too, with conventional sights -- until you've become familiar with the gun.

I suspect that getting proficient with red dot sights will be like LEARNING A NEW GUN -- you'll get better at it with practice (as muscle memory kicks in, as positioning the gun properly becomes a habit.)

Skillet
April 26, 2013, 08:01 PM
Walt, your killin the man's dreams! haha I think what many people wish more of would be single stack pistols. the main reason why many first time pistol shooters buy a 19111 in the first place (let me know if i am wrong) is because they have smaller hands and want to shoot a gun that they can hold better. so, give them more options. Whats wrong with a single stack full frame 9mm or 40 for those people that have small hands but maybe dont want a 1911, chambered in 45 or in whichever, for price or for other reasons? I think there would be a market for it. perhaps.

Potatohead
April 26, 2013, 08:13 PM
i want one...does it come with ammo?

Jim K
April 26, 2013, 09:50 PM
Start of scenario:

Johnny Browming comes up with a new handgun idea, and draws a sketch on paper.

He sends the sketch to the Fabrick National factory. They take one look, conclude that Johnny is a gun design genius, and send him a check for a million dollars and promise a royalty of $100 on each gun sold. They put the new gun into production, and it is immediately adopted by every army, police force and terrorist group in the world. Johnny is famous, happy and rich.

Then he wakes up, finds that Fabrick National replied that they have no interest and even if they did they would need to see a working prototype, full engineering drawings, patent documents and a proposal. Since Johnny can't run any piece of machinery bigger than a Dremel tool, and has no idea how to make a prototype or prepare drawings, he goes back to sleep.

End of scenario. ;)

Jim

Walt Sherrill
April 26, 2013, 10:49 PM
Walt, your killin the man's dreams! haha I think what many people wish more of would be single stack pistols. the main reason why many first time pistol shooters buy a 19111 in the first place (let me know if i am wrong) is because they have smaller hands and want to shoot a gun that they can hold better. so, give them more options. Whats wrong with a single stack full frame 9mm or 40 for those people that have small hands but maybe dont want a 1911, chambered in 45 or in whichever, for price or for other reasons? I think there would be a market for it. perhaps.

I think a lot of people get a 1911 because people who know more about guns than they do tell them that 1911s are what they should get. Expert advice, so to speak -- and not because the 1911 single stack grips fit them better. The biggest drawback to a single-stack gun (and a 1911) is that capacity is limited. Capacity is less of a concern when you're doing .45, but would be a matter of concern with a 9mm version.

My first 1911 was a nicely gun-smithed 1911 built by a guy who used to participate here (until health problems forced his retirement.) Anyone remember George Stringer? Great gunsmith and nice guy. I've had many guns since then, and the two most impressive ones I've owned were a S&W 52-2 [.38 Special] and a SIG P-210-6 [in 9mm]. Both single-stack, both with MARVELOUS triggers, both wonderfully accurate. (Both the S&W and SIG had limited capacity...)

Killing his dream? Or, maybe, just helping him to refine it. I'd like to understand some parts of the dream -- to know whether those parts are meaningful, or whether he just had a couple of beers before he sat down at the keyboard. <grin>

The OP didn't specify SINGLE-STACK -- just single action -- single-stack was YOUR addition. But, why single action? I know 1911s are single action and they can have marvelous triggers, but one doesn't necessarily follow the other.

Some of the other features he mentions MIGHT be good, but I'd like to understand why he incorporated them. I agree on low bore axis, and understand why it's important. But some of the criteria -- like wanting the slide inside the frame because it's more accurate -- may be based on false assumptions.

I also like polymer frames and the way they can flex to make recoil more tolerable. Indeed, I've had a bunch of .45s, over the years and right now have a SIG 220 Super Match and a Glock 38 [.45 GAP]. While the SIG is clearly more accurate than the Glock, when shot from a rest, I shoot the Glock better -- and if I were doing IDPA again, I'd be using the Glock rather than the SIG.


.

Bobson
April 26, 2013, 11:41 PM
Do these handguns with red dots (as pictured by CMDR on page 1) fit in holsters, or do holsters need to be special-made for em?

WC145
April 27, 2013, 11:06 AM
Quote:the red dot can obscure distant targets
As a red dot newbie, I understand this to be a function of the size of the dot -- which is specified as "minute of angle". Some red dot scopes specify a single dot size, whereas others offer 2 or 3 sizes and various reticles -- with the caveat that changing the dot/reticle may require re-adjustment of the scope's point of aim.

Also, the red dot is not visible in the scope unless your eye is somewhat aligned with the scope. In fact, the red dot can be elusive at first, but with practice the dot comes up to the eye just as iron sights do once some proficiency is established. Regardless, with all else equal, the red dot offers quicker target acquisition and follow up shots in addition to being friendly to older eyes that better focus on the target (using red dot) than on the front sight (using iron, or fiber optic sights).
I don't have any issues with the red dots on my pistols or long guns obscuring targets. My RMR02s have 8MOA dots, so the dot is 8" at 100yds, 4" a 50yds, 2" at 25yds, etc, so it isn't an issue at typical hangun ranges.

You'll find that the FN and S&W guns that are optic ready have taller "suppressor sights" installed on them, this allows you to cowitness your dot with your sights. Companies that are modifying guns to take red dots (OST and Bowie Tactical come to mind) offer suppressor sights as part of the package. It makes dot aquisition much easier, line up the sights and the dot is right there. Of course, with practice, you won't be looking for the sights, the dot will be line up naturally as you present the gun.

Do these handguns with red dots (as pictured by CMDR on page 1) fit in holsters, or do holsters need to be special-made for em?
You need to check around, more holster makers are offering holsters that work with them all the time. Of course, as their popularity grows, more businesses will see that there is a market and move to get a piece of the pie.

For work I use a Blade-Tech duty holster made specifically for the FNP45T with the red dot sight.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2HCMTzylnWw/UMpNrX3MItI/AAAAAAAAFHI/VHOCAKg12oo/s512/SDC10067.JPG

Holsters that are low cut in the front work, a long as there's enough room for the sight, so you don't necessarily have to have one specifically made for a gun with a red dot. sight. This is my FNS9, it also has a Trijicon RMR02 on it, the leather holster is a low cut Don Hume that was made for a HK USPc. It fits the FN well and accomodates the red dot nicely. The IWB kydex holster is from OST and was made to so that it covers the sight.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xF_N9viniqA/T5W4uoTteQI/AAAAAAAAEP4/vTFIWI1gW9Y/s640/SDC12001.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cLdmgkUuH60/T7zONHHMUkI/AAAAAAAAEbI/WPLinMhSI50/s512/SDC12088.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-N8oBoB-kf8c/T7zONvdpvvI/AAAAAAAAEbQ/KPl16t8rk7w/s720/SDC12090.JPG

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