50-state legal home defense carbine - a concept


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Owlnmole
April 26, 2013, 02:27 AM
I have an idea for a simple, inexpensive and lightweight home defense carbine/truck gun that would be legal in all 50 states and I'd like some feedback...


Pistol-caliber carbine in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP (each caliber a different model but with maximum interchangeablity of parts to lower cost)
16.5 in barrel, slim contour for light weight
Straightforward blow-back operation (unless gas operation would save significant weight)
Last-shot bolt hold-open
Manual safety, perhaps a large and visible thumb safety on the stock like some shotguns
Box or rotary magazine (magazine and well sized for 9mm, so say 10 rounds in 9mm, 8 in .40 and 7 in .45)
Magazine normally fixed in place but easily removed for unloading with a small "key" attached to the sling
Integral guides for easy reloading from plastic stripper clips
Flip-up, protected "combat" aperture sights zeroed at 50m with fiber optic front post for low light conditions
Integral mounting rail on top of receiver for scope, red dot, reflex, etc.
Lightweight composite stock with threaded inserts in forend for optional short accessory rails is desired
Overal proportions and styling like a modernized M1 carbine
Target empty weight 2 kg (4.4 lbs)


Let's hear your thoughts...I've got my fireproof underwear on!

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Inebriated
April 26, 2013, 02:57 AM
What would this do that an AR couldn't?

I don't ask to shoot your idea down, but because that would be your primary competition.

I would be interested in seeing a sketch of this, as well. I do like the concept a lot... a Modern M1 Carbine would be sweet.

nwilliams
April 26, 2013, 03:10 AM
No need to create a new carbine that is 50 State legal, just buy a Beretta CX4

Can't think of any State that could ban it.

bigfatdave
April 26, 2013, 03:19 AM
Why would I buy a nerfed weapon out here in the real world?

My M1 Carbines do all that that gun could, and don't have a silly bullet button or on-purpose low-cap or stripper clips
- detachable magazines are modern tech, they're here to stay until something better comes along

My Sub2000 does all that carbine could, and folds, AND takes Block mags, up to 33 rounds easily available
... for that matter, this resembles a Hi-Point carbine in a lot of ways ... and while a HP carbine is about as much long gun as you can get for <$200, even it takes detachable mags

===

Don't get me wrong, I see features you listed that I like, I just wouldn't buy the neutered weapon you want to attach them to.
Aperture sights? Great! F.O. front? Great!
Interchangeablity of parts? Good idea!
Multi-caliber? Good!
Lightweight PCC? Love 'em!

But then we get to the garbage that panders to the subjects of CA/NY/NJ/etc ...
Bullet Button? NOPE!
Fixed mag? NOOOOOOPE!
Stripper clips on a defensive weapon? NO, NO, NO!

Bobson
April 26, 2013, 03:26 AM
The biggest problem with a carbine that's legal in all 50 states is it suggests that the rest of us ought to willingly comply with restrictions imposed in states like CA and NY. Most people won't do that. I sure wouldn't.

Snowdog
April 26, 2013, 04:38 AM
Laws change. Some feature of your concept that is legal in all 50 states today may be legal in only 49 tomorrow.

Owlnmole
April 26, 2013, 05:06 AM
Thanks, all, for the feedback. I respect your opinions and did not want this thread to turn into a debate on state or federal gun regulations.

I actually like the idea of stripper clips if well-implemented--much lighter and cheaper than additional magazines and you could easily work out either a stock cuff or sling-mounted pouches to carry them at the ready. Made out of something like Delrin plastic they ought to be easier to use than the old steel ones if that feature is designed in from the start.

Personally, I actually find a lot of the high-capacity stuff just silly if you're not going to war, more tacticool than necessary. I certainly wouldn't feel underarmed with ten rounds in a handy carbine. I still see a lot of Ruger Mini-14s in regular use with just the stock box of five, even in places where high capacity is not an issue.

My thoughts on this were actually that the 50-state legality would be an incidental bonus--only the magazine removable with a tool was a deliberate nod to California and that could easily be optional.

Owlnmole
April 26, 2013, 05:16 AM
In .45ACP holding eight rounds, that's true, but the 14 rounds of .40 or 15 or 17 rounds of 9mm would be banned in those states that do not allow high capacity magazines.

No need to create a new carbine that is 50 State legal, just buy a Beretta CX4

Can't think of any State that could ban it.

Flashcube
April 26, 2013, 06:01 AM
No need to create a new carbine that is 50 State legal, just buy a Beretta CX4

Can't think of any State that could ban it.


Pretty sure they banned the Beretta in CT by name in the bill they passed just recently. Banned thumb-hole stocks too so it's out anyway. :cuss:

Manny
April 26, 2013, 06:33 AM
I had a .40 cal Beretta CX4 thinking it would be an ideal home defense, all around weapon, and it could have been but it was unfortunately a great idea poorly executed.

-Absolutely lousy trigger, so heavy I thought the safety was still on at times.
-No included top rail, and if you did buy one, you had to drill to install it. In this day and age? Unaccepable.
-The silly and flimsy extendable "rail" on the front serves no purpose.
-The molded in sights don't properly co-witness with most RDS sights.
-It should have been set up to allow spare mags to be carried in the buttstock, like the Styer scout rifle.

Those are my major gripes with the Beretta. If they were to redo it trading the silly swoopy styling for functionality and putting a decent trigger on it, they'd really have something. I would LOVE to se the concept done properly and would buy one in a second. A light handy carbine in 9mm/.40/.45 would be fantastically usefull. The 50 state part probobly wouldn't work as it would cause too many silly and detrimental design compromises delegated by the virulent anti-gun states. But still, a well done carbine such as an updated version of the military's M1 Carbine would be a real winner in my book.

wgaynor
April 26, 2013, 08:04 AM
Hi Point 995 was designed to be compliant with the AWB and now it's lumped with the other rifles that the politicians wish to ban.

No matter what is created to be compliant, in a few years it will probably be on the ban list.

This shows that it's not the type of gun that politicians want banned, it's all guns they want banned.

Ed Ames
April 26, 2013, 08:04 AM
There is a very good chance that what you describe won't be 50-state legal.

CA SB 47 would, if made law, render about half your features meaningless. That's a current SB for 2013.

If you want to get the job done, a 20” barrel 1892 clone in .44 magnum is, as far as I know, North America legal. As in 50 states + with the proper (attainable) paperwork you could legally travel through Canada or Mexico with one.

If you want to do something cool, put that mental energy into fighting the laws. Much harder problem of course but if you don't fight the laws they'll eventually(January 1st, 2014 in this case) explicitly address the loophole magazine tools and become so strict that basically no semi-auto guns are legal to sell.

Sav .250
April 26, 2013, 08:22 AM
There is no ,"one weapon fits all." That`s like saying,every one needs to drive the same car.

Ed Ames
April 26, 2013, 08:29 AM
The op wasn't after a "one weapon fits all", he was looking for....

Cars are a good example. It's easy to forget nowadays but for decades there were "49 state" cars and "50 state" cars. The difference wasn't that 50-state cars were "one car fits all", but that 49-state cars could be sold in all but one state. The cars were basically identical, but the 50th state required some extra equipment that raised the price by a hundreds of dollars. Of course nobody outside of that 50th state bought "50 state" cars.

HOOfan_1
April 26, 2013, 08:30 AM
I am not sure home defense is legal in all 50 states :rolleyes:

lemaymiami
April 26, 2013, 08:51 AM
Owl... the one major flaw in your initial concept that I see is the limitation on round capacity. You may think that limiting rounds is a good idea ... but I must disagree. In many parts of the country that might not be a problem but down here in Miami any confrontation with violence a strong possibility will have you facing multiple opponents. This isn't an exaggeration or armchair commando stuff. I worked local streets for 22 years and have a pretty good idea of what's possible, locally. As a retired cop I've chosen not to carry sidearms at all. My best defense is avoidance and that's worked pretty well for me (I don't advocate it for anyone else, at all...). If you choose to be an armed citizen down here you'd better be prepared and any weapon with a limited round capacity will never get my approval. A shotgun with addtional rounds on hand is a very good choice -but for pistol caliber weapons you're just asking to get in over your head unless you're using them while fleeing the scene....

Owlnmole
April 26, 2013, 09:48 AM
Like I said, I respect the political views but I would still be interested in hearing your feedback on the gun concept itself. For example, what about the idea of stripper clip loading as a weight- and cost-saving measure or the choice of the M1 Carbine as a model for the ergonomics?

Deltaboy
April 26, 2013, 09:50 AM
SINGLE SHOT Ruger #1 in 45/70.

CA Raider
April 26, 2013, 10:03 AM
If I remember right ... Beretta CX4's and Hi-Points are illegal in CA ... or require some sort of mod (bullet button maybe). I looked into it a few years ago and was disappointed because the CX4 would have made a great home defense carbine for my family. AR's "don't work" for a lot of families because their appearance is too much like a military weapon - wives don't have a love affair with them :-)

To be successful -your proposed carbine must look like a home gun and not a military knockoff. In other words - use more wood and less black plastic :-) Also, it needs to meet all the CA restrictions on weapons. If you do that - you might have something that would really sell!

I personally would vote for a carbine that fires 357 magnums. But your choices of ammo are fine for home defense.

CA R

Ed Ames
April 26, 2013, 10:06 AM
The problem is you can't divorce it from politics if half the signature features (tool-release mags, etc.) are the product of changeable politics.

benEzra
April 26, 2013, 10:12 AM
This will be a niche gun useful in 2 or 3 states that ban ordinary carbines, methinks. Some thoughts:

If you're limited to a pre-1861 magazine size (if it's to be 50-state legal, you're limited to only 7 rounds!), the performance of those rounds had better make up for the absolute lack of reserve capacity. For that reason, I think full-house 125gr .357 would be better than 9mm or .40 S&W. If you go with 9mm, design it to function with everything from regular ammo to +P+.

You'd need to either invent a better way to load a magazine from stripper clips, or think about other solutions for reloading. Compared to regular magazines, stripper clips are slow and fumble-prone. I'd suggest looking at an en-bloc clip instead (like the M1 Garand) and sell 7-round, 10-round, and 15-round versions to meet the needs of people in those states with restrictions.

Unistat
April 26, 2013, 10:15 AM
.357 mag lever gun.

CA Raider
April 26, 2013, 11:17 AM
here's one thing you really need to think about.
and this was what was REALLY on my mind when I wanted a home defense carbine.

who is actually gonna' use this carbine?
Answer: a very nervous wife ... with two kids in the adjacent bedroom.
picture a situation where the husband is out of town on a business trip, so the wife and the kids are nervous. it's the middle of the night and there's a loud noise downstairs - clearly someone is breaking into the house. so the wife does what any mother would do - she grabs the carbine and rounds up the kids at the same time. it's a VERY difficult scenario - lots of fear, real danger, kids involved, a home owner holding a gun who does not have much training with the weapon.

so your weapon needs to be super user-friendly. very good ergonomics. fits the human body really well. has low recoil. is accurate.

there is always a place in the market for well-designed products.

CA R

FourTeeFive
April 26, 2013, 11:24 AM
I personally think a semi-auto .45ACP carbine using standard 1911 magazines would be a very nice little weapon. To my knowledge one hasn't been mass-produced, although I've seen custom bolt-action carbines like this.

Arizona_Mike
April 26, 2013, 11:48 AM
Look into the MechTECH CCU. It is blowback done right (high reciprocating mass). The bolt and bold carrier weigh over 3 lb in the case of my 10mm (half the total weight of the gun) and it shoots cleaner than most pistols. High spring pre-tension helps but because of the progressive nature of springs (Hooke's Law) you need mass to delay a blowback. It has a manual hold open but can be configured to meet all of your other requirements.
It will shoot 2-3 MOA all day long.

Buffalo Bore Heavy 10mm will hit 1000 ft-lbs from a 13-14" barrel (slow a tad by 16") with recoil like a .223 varminter.

Mike

PS. Just avoid the temptation to make it Tacticool which I think is the reason many don't take the platform seriously. The options and accessories cater to the Tacticool market but the MechTech forum is full of tasteful accessory ideas.

JustinJ
April 26, 2013, 12:34 PM
Why would anybody in one state limit his options by the regulations of another state? And realistically for home defense minimizing weight isn't such an issue, within reason.

Ed Ames
April 26, 2013, 12:55 PM
Travel is the main reason.

I used to regularly travel to and through California. One of the little hassles of such trips is figuring out which gun(s) I can legally bring with me. Even some of the guns I brought with me when I moved out of the state are now verbotten, and most of what i've acquired since is strictly verbotten, so it can be somewhat of a pain to sort out.

Every hotel, camp site, and suchlike becomes my "home" for the night, so I still want a "home defense" capable gun.

For me, a good travel gun should not be semi-auto simply because of politics. Lever and pump are still quite quick but freak fewer people out for some reason. A 20ga pump, a m92 lever carbine, or anything similar should be fine.

Arizona_Mike
April 26, 2013, 02:17 PM
Given your latest post, get a Marlin Guide gun in .45-70 (small and light) and use cowboy level loads. I love my Brockman "hand mortar".

Mike

JShirley
April 26, 2013, 02:26 PM
Pistol caliber carbines have more penetration, but less effect than high-speed, lightweight .22 projectiles from 5.45x39 and 5.56x45mm rifles. In other words, there is no good reason for not using one of these two rounds. Only moving up past .357 would make the rifle more effective, but pistol cartridges wound by using heavy, slower projectiles than intermediate rifle cartridges. This by nature means bullets from these cartridges penetrate more deeply in both tissue and in structural materials: these are NOT good defensive cartridges when you can put a .223 or 5.45x39mm in the same sized package.

John

Owlnmole
April 26, 2013, 02:51 PM
Hmmm, what about 5.7 x 28 mm FN?

Ed Ames
April 26, 2013, 02:52 PM
Re: the marlin guide 45/70... I think that's another great choice except that the caveat mentioned by JShirley applies in spades to 45/70.

I have a .454 casull lever carbine as my way of having all the problems of a 45/70 ... Overpenetration, recoil, oddball ammo, etc. ... times two since it holds 10+1 rounds.

JShirley
April 26, 2013, 02:58 PM
what about 5.7x28Not effective enough. Intermediate cartridges are the "sweet spot" here. They are light enough to be easily controllable, but powerful enough to be decisive. And there are *many* .224 projectiles that have minimal penetration at high velocity, but dramatic terminal effects in tissue. In general, PCCs are an answer waiting for a question. They are not noticeably smaller than carbines in the 5.45x39-6.8 SPC classes.

John

Ed Ames
April 26, 2013, 03:25 PM
As far as I can tell pistol caliber carbines have three reasonable justifications.

1) A way around NFA headaches. A sub2k is bulkier than a Glock shoulder stock but much easier to own.
2) A way to address some unusual logistical issues. The cowboy .44-40 of mythology.
3) A way to take advantage of specific surplus ammo availability. Anyone who stocked up on cases of surplus 7.72x25 probably wishes she had a 7.62x25 carbine. That cuts both ways - people used to make .30 carbine handguns.

HoosierQ
April 26, 2013, 04:16 PM
They already make one...it's called a Winchester Model 94. :D

BSA1
April 26, 2013, 04:30 PM
Ditto on a Winchester (Marlin) lever action carbine in 30/30.

It is totally Politically Correct as it is mostly associated with movie and TV cowboys wearing white hats.

It is a common cartridge available from Farm Supply stores to Wal-Mart.

It is very effective out to 150+ yards.

It is simple and easy to use.

Recoil is easier on the ladies.

No one than Jeff Cooper described it as the perfect urban home defense gun.

David E
April 26, 2013, 04:42 PM
Personally, I actually find a lot of the high-capacity stuff just silly if you're not going to war, more tacticool than necessary.

Is your last name Biden or Bloomberg by chance??

I certainly wouldn't feel underarmed with ten rounds in a handy carbine.

Ah, it can't be Bloomberg, he'd only allow 7 rounds.....

If I'm going to carry the weight and/or bulk of a rifle, then I want the power and range of a rifle. I'm shooting an AR-15 Steel match tomorrow that has targets out to 500 yds. Try that with any pistol caliber carbine.

tyeo098
April 26, 2013, 04:48 PM
Lever action 1895 type action in 223 remington.

JShirley
April 26, 2013, 05:00 PM
The .30-30 is only a good urban rifle with handloads- and then, probably only two. Traditional .30-30 rounds are heavy and relatively slow- penetrators, in other words. It can be loaded with any .308 bullets, so a varmint bullet can be loaded- but only 1 in the chamber, and 1 in the tube.

The Hornady FTX may solve this problem, but it'd be easier to pick a rifle that could use more than one brand of ammo.

Ed, none of those seem like real questions, which is a bit insulting. 1&3 definitely are not, and 2 is debatable. A 16" barrel is a 16" barrel, and surplus ComBlock rifle ammo is about as cheap as any centerfire ammo.

John

Owlnmole
April 26, 2013, 05:30 PM
It's funny--odd, not amusing--how quickly people on this board resort to political characterizations. At no point did I say that I supported magazine capacity limits, nor any other gun control regulation. I said that I, personally, feel no need to carry a high-capacity rifle to protect my home and family. I don't think foreign invasion, armed gangs or zombie hordes are likely scenarios. Even in the most dire circumstances, I could grab my M1 Garand, M1917 Enfield or Lee-Enfield No4 Mk1*--even my old Marlin Papoose .22LR--and feel quite at ease. I also like revolvers and Colt 1911s. YMMV.

Is your last name Biden or Bloomberg by chance??

Ah, it can't be Bloomberg, he'd only allow 7 rounds.....

If I'm going to carry the weight and/or bulk of a rifle, then I want the power and range of a rifle. I'm shooting an AR-15 Steel match tomorrow that has targets out to 500 yds. Try that with any pistol caliber carbine.

mf-dif
April 26, 2013, 05:36 PM
I dunno why you would want a rifle that shot pistol rounds for HD. Most defensive encounters happen within 5ft. If you're gonna take on the bulk of a long gun, shoot long gun power out of it.

David E
April 26, 2013, 08:23 PM
I said that I, personally, feel no need to carry a high-capacity rifle to protect my home and family.

No, you didn't. You said:
Personally, I actually find a lot of the high-capacity stuff just silly if you're not going to war, more tacticool than necessary.

This is totally different from what you say now.

To your original question, your Politically Correct pistol caliber carbine would not sell.

CA Raider
April 26, 2013, 10:41 PM
Owl ... remember what I said.
If you make a good product - people will buy it.
But you have to design the carbine for the people who will really use it.
Experienced gun owners will probably not need the HD rifle you are talking about.
It's needed by ordinary people who have to defend their families.

The reason I wanted to put a carbine into the hands of my wife for HD is because she's got a better chance of hitting the target with two hands on the rifle. Not perfect - just better. Handgun loads will work fine - they will put down the assailant if they hit him. I'd prefer not to have rifle rounds inn the gun because they will penetrate multiple walls in the house. Remember - there are kids sleeping in bedrooms nearby. But the carbine has to be very user-friendly, easy to handle and point well, and easy to reload.
KISS - keep it simple.

good luck,
CA R

barnbwt
April 26, 2013, 10:59 PM
I dunno why you would want a rifle that shot pistol rounds for HD.
Noise. Every PCC I've seen is somewhat underwhelming to hear in action--which is kinda what you want in a defense gun, fired indoors. Where's the need for a 100+ yard cartridge for shotgun-range applications? Ammo is also cheap and can be shot at "pistol caliber only" indoor ranges for practice (few rifle ranges in urban settings). It can also be used in pistols (not much of a convenience, but a convenience nonetheless). A much-overlooked aspect of PCCs in today's consumer culture is that they are far, far, far easier and cheaper to build (not assemble) yourself, as well as to reload.

The CX4 would be a wonderful tool if only Beretta could just sell it for 300$. Never heard anything negative about those besides price and the fact it isn't an AR (the AK guys didn't seem to knock it, though ;)).

The "Volks-Karabiner" I'd like to see is a simple blowback tube-gun in pistol caliber that uses AR FCG, safety, and grips, and can be made with the crudest and smallest of manual mills or sheetmetal brakes with little else than a barrel-tap. 3-5 round capacity tube magazine that is easy to make. Less than 100$ in materials, less than 8 hours labor. Cheap, dependable, effective force multipliers good for deterrence and not much else, including sale. A Liberator rifle. It could even be made as a bolt-action in more restrictive environments.

Once outright bans on classes of weapons are struck down (and they will be, unless our RKBA is completely revoked) the strategy will logically shift to making the hobby expensive and out of reach of as many as possible. Inner-city gun stores and FFLs will be driven to shut down, and firearms/ammo distribution will be cut off or taxed prohibitively. Home-building could become a viable means for disadvantaged and disenfranchised folks to get their hands on tools that are capable of defending them (and representing them to the rulers who keep them in bondage ;)). Cheap parts kits are gone, so the next build-a-gun solution will need to come from whole cloth.

TCB

FourTeeFive
April 26, 2013, 11:30 PM
The CX4 would be a wonderful tool if only Beretta could just sell it for 300$. Never heard anything negative about those besides price and the fact it isn't an AR (the AK guys didn't seem to knock it, though ).

The trigger for me was a big negative. Yes, I've read all about the fixes, but I ended up selling mine.

I do, however, love my Olympic Arms K9-GL.

witchhunter
April 26, 2013, 11:34 PM
I already have mine.....Winchester Model 1894 .30/30

ECVMatt
April 26, 2013, 11:40 PM
.357 mag lever gun.


This ^^

Levergun in .357 pretty much will do it all.

303tom
April 26, 2013, 11:51 PM
You mean to say it would look something like this ?................

JShirley
April 27, 2013, 12:16 AM
CA Raider,

You do not understand terminal ballistics- as I said, and hundreds of scientific tests have conclusively proven, lighweight, fragile bullets at high velocity penetrate less in structures or tissue than handgun bullets do. This is one of the 3 main reasons most SWAT teams have gone to the M4 or AR15 carbines instead of the MP-5 and similar subguns.

Yes, there are many people who believe slow= less penetration. All of these people fail to understand basic principles of bullet dynamics. This article ( http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26) took 2 seconds to find. In the first article penetrating a standard wall plugged the .40 HP and increased penetration to over 3x as much penetration as the .223 HP it was tested against.

John

USAF_Vet
April 27, 2013, 12:42 AM
I'd rather see this as a pump action carbine rather than a semi auto.

While that may limit the gun to rimmed pistol rounds, I don't think that is a major draw back.

Lever actions are ok, but I have ways felt it is too easy to break cheek weld and lose your sight picture with a lever action. Not so with a pump.

So here is my suggestion, although some features are not 50 state compliant.

Polymer stock to save weight.
Short, pump action
16.5" slim profile barrel.
AR style A frame adjustable front sight that should be able to cowitness a RDS.
Integrated top rail optics ready receiver with folding BUIS.

Basically, I'm describing a pistol caliber carbine based on the classic pump action shotgun.

It's user friendly, easy to use, the only real downside is the difficulty in reloading rounds quickly. I've seen some pump action .22 rifles, but I've never handled one. Not sure how they load.

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 12:53 AM
I don't know if pumps or levers are easier to work while holding your sight picture. It might actually vary from person to person.

I do know that they used to/maybe still do sell pump HD rifles to get around the legal issues of semi-auto. It should even make JShirley happy since they were available in 5.56 and 5.45. :)

http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/00-ak47-par3.jpg
gunwebsites.net via Google search (http://ak-74.us/?p=8107)

FourTeeFive
April 27, 2013, 01:23 AM
How about a Rossi in .45LC?

http://www.rossiusa.com/images/imagesMain/SCJ4510SS_012.jpg

The more I think about it, the Henry Mare's Legs could be great home defense guns:

http://henryrepeating.com/rifle-mares-leg.cfm

Texan Scott
April 27, 2013, 01:23 AM
It would likely need to be a double barrelled shotgun ... in .410 ... compressed air powered ... fire corks ... and California will be the first to outlaw it.

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 01:40 AM
That particular Rossi is not California legal. It got swept up in a panic over Armsel Striker clones.

FourTeeFive
April 27, 2013, 02:07 AM
That particular Rossi is not California legal. It got swept up in a panic over Armsel Striker clones.

Wow. Just wow. It's an assault-revolver-rifle! Must have been that darn picatinny rail on top that pushed them over the edge.

Morons...

Texan Scott
April 27, 2013, 02:12 AM
What'd I just say? :p ... CORK GUNS.

hovercat
April 27, 2013, 04:07 AM
Winchester 1905. The original urban carbine.

Ignition Override
April 27, 2013, 04:28 AM
Inebriated:
If it has a designation similar to AR-15, minds will instantly close (no matter what the facts) and it will never be accepted throughout this land.

SabbathWolf
April 27, 2013, 04:36 AM
That particular Rossi is not California legal. It got swept up in a panic over Armsel Striker clones.
Are you kidding me?
Wow. Just wow.

When is that San Andreas Fault Line thing ever gonna happen so California can just sink?

shinyroks
April 27, 2013, 04:57 AM
Are you kidding me?
Wow. Just wow.

When is that San Andreas Fault Line thing ever gonna happen so California can just sink?
Unfortunately, the politicians would be the only ones with access to quick evac, and would simply politic somewhere else... problem not solved...

SabbathWolf
April 27, 2013, 05:31 AM
Unfortunately, the politicians would be the only ones with access to quick evac, and would simply politic somewhere else... problem not solved...
True I suppose. But it's Californians who put them in office.

JShirley
April 27, 2013, 09:10 AM
A slide-action .223 w/ 17" barrel would be a neat little thing.

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 09:26 AM
Wow. Just wow. It's an assault-revolver-rifle! Must have been that darn picatinny rail on top that pushed them over the edge.

It's not the rail. They were going after these...

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/_thumbs/Images/shotgun/sh09/protecta.jpg

The federal government went after 'em too. The difference is that BATF (no E at the time, if I remember the timeline right) used the .5" bore and "sporting" wording in existing regulations to call them a destructive device. California used the fact that it's a shotgun with a rotating cylinder.

A .44 magnum version would be fine as far as I know, but the .45 you showed also accepts .410 shot shells, and "nobody needs a revolving cylinder shotgun for sporting purposes."

JustinJ
April 27, 2013, 10:10 AM
Travel is the main reason.

True, but then i wouldn't call it a "Home Defense" gun. Also would be a very narrow market.

To me a Remingot 870 seems fairly ideal, cheap, simple and i'm guessing legal everywhere?

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 10:25 AM
Semantics.

Legally, a hotel room is your home (residence) while you are staying there. Same for an RV, tent, and so on.

In California, for example, someone from out-of-state (or in-state) can legally, and without any paperwork for the out-of-staters last time I checked, legally have a loaded 1911 in their tent while camping, or a loaded mini-14 in her hotel room, even though she must unload and put it in a locked case carry it to her car.

JustinJ
April 27, 2013, 10:49 AM
Semantics.

I hope the marketing team isn't that dismissive.

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 11:05 AM
Why?

A big part of marketing is dismissing false perceptions. If you want to sell a product you must overcome all sorts of reservations and random misunderstandings so that people can see how the product is useful to them in their world. A classic example is someone thinking "home defense" is restricted to defending a detached single family dwelling because that's where they happen to live, when in fact home defense is a very broad category.

Frankly I think the OP is trying to solve a solved problem. A 16" lever gun is 50-state legal. A 20” barrel adds Canada to the reach list. Use of a nonmilitary cartridge adds Mexico. A pump gun might be good too, and a few people have those on the market already e.g.

http://www.marstar.ca/product_images/rifleimages/Pedersoli/PD-V.924-357.jpg
.357 pump carbine.

JShirley
April 27, 2013, 11:15 AM
The 7615P ( http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm) would seem to be a good candidate. For even less of a "tactical" look, any 7600 loaded with varmint bullets should have decisive effects, but penetrate less in structure or tissue than handgun rounds.

I had an ND with a .270 loaded with 130 grain SP 25 years ago. (My ONLY ND.) The bullet fragmented as it penetrated the ceiling. The fragments did not fully penetrate the roof.

John

David E
April 27, 2013, 11:23 AM
I'd rather see this as a pump action carbine rather than a semi auto.

Basically, I'm describing a pistol caliber carbine based on the classic pump action shotgun.

The Colt Lightning rifle of the 1880's was exactly that, albeit wood and steel. Replicas exist, but I hear they jam a lot.

The Timberwolf pump action .357 was a recent incarnation of the idea, but it, too, fell by the wayside.

The current Remington 7615 pump action rifle in .223 that takes AR mags would be legal in most states. Even more legal in some that allow 30 rd mags.

It's foolish to comply with the most restrictive gun laws in designing an arm intended for all 50 states where most of those restrictions don't exist.

JShirley
April 27, 2013, 12:57 PM
For those that handload, the 7600P ( http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm) could be loaded with lightweight spire points or varmint bullets at reduced velocities for less blast and recoil but low penetration in a home defense role. The same rifle with full power loads would make a fine hog or close to medium range deer gun.

John

FourTeeFive
April 27, 2013, 01:08 PM
A slide-action .223 w/ 17" barrel would be a neat little thing.

So is this CA legal because it isn't a semi-auto, even though it has a pistol grip?

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

JShirley
April 27, 2013, 01:36 PM
Not sure, but there are versions that don't have a pistol grip, as well (at least, not the way these laws mean it). Only the M4-style stock has what would be considered "a pistol grip" in legal terms.

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 04:33 PM
As of the last time I cared (a few years ago) California allowed pretty much any or all of the "scary" features, in unlimited number, on a manual action or rimfire rifle. Those Remington pump .223s are sold in California, or were anyway. You could buy a bolt gun with a bayonet (mil surplus) from a number of sporting goods stores. As far as I know those rules haven't changed much.

A semi-auto needs to follow more rules, and detachable-magazine semi-autos must follow a LOT of extra rules which is where the loophole-seeking comes in. Those rules are likely to change this year to close the "detachable with tools" loophole at least. I hope not but, well, the state is gleefully driving out anyone who disagrees with Sacramento values.

dprice3844444
April 27, 2013, 05:42 PM
http://www.mechtechsys.com/ here's your carbine answer in 9mm,40 and 45 using a glock or 1911 pistol

hso
April 27, 2013, 05:49 PM
The calibers are not the optimum for home defense due to overpenetration in drywall. Take a look at the Box 'O Truth website for standard building materials tests that may surprise you. My personal tests years ago on drywall are mirrored there very closely. That's why I chose a 55gr 5.56 for home.

Grunt
April 27, 2013, 06:01 PM
Personally, I just stay away from those states like it's some sort of pandemic hot zone! Good luck in trying to design a defensive firearm that will satisfy even the most hoplophobic states but I can't see myself buying a defensive firearm that is neutered to the point of being acceptable to these places and their draconian laws!

lemaymiami
April 27, 2013, 06:55 PM
After I spoke up about round capacity in a pistol caliber carbine I got to thinking a bit (or daydreaming - take you pick...). The carbine I'd like to see would have roughly the same dimensions as the old M1 carbine - but be chambered for 44 mag.... If the idea was executed properly you'd have a very quick pointing close quarters weapon with some notable punch at ranges under fifty meters...

The big drawback as noted is that large bore, relatively slow moving, heavy rounds will do some serious penetration. I'm far less worried about over-penetration in interior spaces than lack of deep penetration into an aggressive opponent. The old 44 special, the 45 long colt, and the GI 45 (along with the much hotter 44 mag) are all very effective as fight enders with their deep penetration (and this was long before hot expanding rounds were commonly available). One of the reasons I like 00buck in 12 guage is how deeply each pellet will penetrate into someone that you must stop or end up on the losing end.

45_auto
April 27, 2013, 07:29 PM
The carbine I'd like to see would have roughly the same dimensions as the old M1 carbine - but be chambered for 44 mag

You mean something like this? You guys ever heard about "Google"?

M1 carbine is 36" long, weighs 6 pounds. The Ruger is 37" long, weighs 6.25 pounds. Going to be hard to get much closer than that.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_deerfield.htm

As for the OP's original idea, it's hard to imagine anyone that's ever been in a firefight preferring stripper clips over removeable mags. That was pretty much figured out in WW2, applied in the FAL, AK47, M14, and M16 in the 1950's.

If someone's serious enough to come in my house after me or my family, I want my people armed with the technology that provides them the most firepower. Stripper clips ain't it!

bigfatdave
April 27, 2013, 08:13 PM
It's foolish to comply with the most restrictive gun laws in designing an arm intended for all 50 states where most of those restrictions don't exist.


This is what I tried to convey earlier, but much better written.

On a side note, I'm the kind of jerk who views a "NOT LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA" sticker on the box as a selling point.

Ed Ames
April 27, 2013, 09:51 PM
It's a matter of horses for courses.

One of the first things I did once I was out of California, before I even had a new driver's license, was de-californiaze an originally California-legal rifle...so I completely get thinking "not legal for sale in California" stickers are a selling point.

But I do travel. For travel I like having something I can legally bring along. I don't know what happened to a poster from years ago who went by the nym 'SM' but he advocated single shot break action 20ga shotguns because they were legal just about everywhere and easy to bring into hotel rooms and the like. What this thread starter is talking about is a lot more "modern" than that. These aren't the only guns you would want to own, but since when is one gun going to cover every use in the real world? This is a niche just like hog hunting is a niche, and there is nothing wrong with designing something to fill a niche.

As a mostly unrelated rant because I need to get it off my chest...

One of the saddest parts of the whole California mess is that California has some of the best shooting opportunities in the USA. The laws about what you can own suck, the hoops to buy suck, but one thing that doesn't suck is that within 100 miles of Los Angeles there are literally thousands of places to safely, legally, and freely do anything from short range pistol practice to 1000 yard shooting.

Contrast that with my living north of Dallas. Yesterday I took delivery a new .308 rifle. In California I would've had to cripple it (your chance to laugh: I bought a kel-tec RFB, so it would need the flash hider replaced with a longer muzzle break to boost the overall length, and a bullet button mod for the magazine) and it would've taken two weeks to buy, and there would've been extra fees...but I would have been shooting it by 6am this morning with my only out-of-pocket cost being gas and ammo. In Dallas I spent part of the day calling around trying to find an outdoor range that would let me fire a .308. I spent another part actually driving out to look at 3 listed "public" (pay to shoot) ranges that are all closed now due to county or city governments actively shutting them down. There are two more that I can try but I'm sure they will be crowded and expensive. I don't miss the politics or the crowded parts of California but I surely do miss some things about the state.

Joshua M. Smith
April 27, 2013, 10:31 PM
It almost sounds like you're describing a Marlin Camp Gun. 9mm, .45acp, and no longer built.

I miss those!

Josh

Ed Ames
April 28, 2013, 01:00 AM
Out of curiosity, I did a bit of googling.

One sub-2000 (retails for about $350)
One of these http://bulletbutton.com/portfolio/kel-tec-sub-2000-bullet-button/ (retails for $29)

As far as I know the only other legal wrinkle for the op's 50 state goal is that it would be treated as a handgun for some purposes in Michigan. Not sure about recent changes though.

So, relative to the OP's wish list... It's missing the bolt hold open... It isn't styled like an m1 carbine...no stripper clips...the rail and optic stuff is all aftermarket but available.

Plus it's .4 pounds lighter than the OP's target, folds in half for easy storage, and can be purchased today for less than $400 (if you can find one).

Seems like yet another way to count this as "problem solved".

JShirley
April 28, 2013, 12:31 PM
I had the Sub-9 (SN 11X), which pre-dated the Sub-2000. It was a pretty good little piece, though the trigger was conspiciously better than the plastic Sub-2000.

The little folding KT PCCs do provide a reasonably reliable, cost-efficient pistol caliber carbine. I'd suggest them before choosing the shotgun monstrosity that even KT employees have a hard time making operate (true story- the KSG was down at least a significant portion of Press Day at SHOT, and that's with an entire team of KT SMEs RIGHT THERE).

But who wants or needs it? As has now been pointed out several times, proper rifle ammunition will give less penetration in tissue, with more effect, while still reducing shoot-through danger in case of a miss inside your house or apartment. With any carbine, there is a minimum length requirement, so choosing a more effective intermediate rifle caliber that is going to be the same length as a PCC anyway, just makes sense.

The only semi-justification I can find for the Sub-2000 is as a quick-reaction arm to give enhanced accuracy, and I don't know that the extreme portability of the Sub-2000 would overcome the cartridge deficiencies. Any team that had a legitimate need for such an arm would probably have no trouble getting an SBR that would be as compact, but would enable penetrating soft body armor and decisively downing a threat at 60 meters. Even KT's own SU-16D12 with M4 stock would be a vastly superior choice.

The straight truth: while it's more effective than a dirty look, the PCC in any cartridge less than powerful than .357 is a range toy. If it's at least .357, but still in a pistol caliber, PCC-fired rounds will tend to over-penetrate...true, with most expanding rounds, a bullet from a PCC will penetrate less than the same bullet from a handgun (due to higher velocity), but that doesn't change the fact that any varmint gun, such as this Howa Ranchland (http://www.legacysports.com/hogue-ranchland-compact-package) will have less penetration while using most available .223 rounds. As a bonus, if you can have a firearm at all, this should be legal where you are.

John

Ed Ames
April 28, 2013, 01:15 PM
"But who wants or needs it?"

A lot of people want it, whether it makes sense or not. Personally, I'd rather have a locking breach design firing a more powerful cartridge but if the choice is 9mm/.40 or nothing, I'm not going to go disarmed.

I don't think the OP was talking about situations where there is a "team". That's mall guard stuff - not reality for more than a few thousand people worldwide. I personally don't have the pockets to deal with a 50 state SBR and I'm not sure anyone outside of government does. The SBR is what would stay in the safe until the end of travel.

The SU-16CA may be another workable choice if you are really freaked by "Pistol Caliber" idea.

JShirley
April 28, 2013, 02:00 PM
situations where there is a teamEd, that was my point- the only folks who might need something like a Sub-2000...can have something better.

Hey, I bought a folding PCC at 24. And then I grew up.

John

Ed Ames
April 28, 2013, 03:00 PM
I guess it's a matter of what "need" means to you.

I know all about the limits of PCC's. Enough, in fact, to know that a lot of the negativity is just habit on the part of the critics. E.g. my .454 casull carbine is routinely dismissed with comments like, "rifles should use rifle cartridges." To me it's a fairly adequate 100 yard brush rifle that runs in the solidly-over-1000fpe range through its effective range, but some people can't get past the idea that it's chambered for a pistol cartridge and therefor is barely better than .22lr to hear them talk.

As for the subs...a few years ago I went on a road trip/vacation which included extended family who have bought into the "guns agree bad m'kay" line. Two weeks of camping, a few days on couches, spanning 5 states...no shooting was planned, no shooting was likely, no shooting happened.

A sub2k would've been easy to slip into my personals bag to have just in case. I couldn't have brought a standard folding stock carbine (e.g. a mini-14) for size reasons. A sub2k arguably would be more effective than a glock (mentioned only because sub2ks can be had which use Glock mags). Of what I actually owned, the only viable options were pistols so I took a 5" 1911. If I had owned them, I could've brought a .40 sub2k and a Glock 22.

Were there risks that justified either not going, or dealing with the repercussions of trying to take a more serious weapon? Absolutely not.
Did I "need" a sub2k? Of course not.
Would a sub2k have been better than a 1911 if something did come up?

If a sub2k cost a year's salary, talking about "need" in absolute terms would make more sense. They don't. These things are inexpensive.

As for age and growing up, I bought my first PCC at 34, after years of opening 6.5x55, 30-06, and other "real" calibers. If I'm lucky that means I'm aging really slowly and will live to 140. I suspect it really means that this isn't a "growing up" issue.

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 03:17 PM
the PCC in any cartridge less than powerful than .357 is a range toy

You really believe that all those military and police forces around the world are buying MP5's and UMP's as "range toys"???

Janos Dracwlya
April 28, 2013, 03:47 PM
I won't dispute the ballistics, but less noise and cheaper ammunition is still a worthwhile consideration. Also, if I can do just fine - defensively - with a 9mm handgun, a 9mm carbine will hit a little harder and be easier to shoot than that pistol. I like my AR, but I would do just as well with my Marlin Camp 9.

JShirley
April 28, 2013, 04:07 PM
45 auto, I'm pretty sure current US police purchase stats will show at least 10 to 1, where 10 is an AR15, M4, or similar carbine, and the 1 is UMP, MP5, or similar, so...yeah. :) I challenge you to show me "all those military and police forces" in the US buying MP5s. I have 2 combat deployments totalling almost 2 years. I saw exactly *1* US service member in all that time with a MP5...he was attached to a go-fast unit (3rd Group), but he was Air Force, and he wasn't a "trigger puller".

US SWAT teams don't usually use MP5s any more, because they are a liability.
1. They do not penetrate SBA;
2. They DO overpenetrate structure;
3. They lack range;
4. Each round is much less effective than 5.56x45mm rounds.

John

Domino
April 28, 2013, 04:38 PM
But who wants or needs it? As has now been pointed out several times, proper rifle ammunition will give less penetration in tissue, with more effect, while still reducing shoot-through danger in case of a miss inside your house or apartment. With any carbine, there is a minimum length requirement, so choosing a more effective intermediate rifle caliber that is going to be the same length as a PCC anyway, just makes sense.

The only semi-justification I can find for the Sub-2000 is as a quick-reaction arm to give enhanced accuracy, and I don't know that the extreme portability of the Sub-2000 would overcome the cartridge deficiencies. Any team that had a legitimate need for such an arm would probably have no trouble getting an SBR that would be as compact, but would enable penetrating soft body armor and decisively downing a threat at 60 meters. Even KT's own SU-16D12 with M4 stock would be a vastly superior choice.


Performance aside, PCC's like the S2k and others still have a role for the civilian. They are much cheaper than an AR-15 and particularly a SBR AR-15. Also, they are not nearly as noisy and much quieter when suppressed. I get what you are saying and there is nothing to disagree with, its just that in a realistic Home Defense situation the PCC is a better choice than a pump shotgun for women and children. A PCC may be better than handgun for some as they are easier to learn to shoot well. Sure an AR or similar weapon is going to be superior, but a PCC is probably more than most will ever need. Unless you are having your home invaded by thugs with body armor, a 9X19 carbine will deliver plenty of hurt.

CmdrSlander
April 28, 2013, 05:14 PM
One of my many poorly cultivated hobbies is drawing concept guns; here's your carbine:

http://s22.postimg.org/ofdljanjl/DSC_0010_3.jpg

JShirley
April 28, 2013, 06:05 PM
in a realistic Home Defense situation the PCC is a better choice than a pump shotgun for women and children. A PCC may be better than handgun for some as they are easier to learn to shoot well

Okay, I'm on board with all those. It's just that- at least, until the recent challenges- something like a Mini-14 would be marginally more expensive than a PCC*, but substantially more effective. Suppressing one would raise the cost well above just wearing a cheap pair of electronic ear muffs.



*again, the exception being something like a .44 carbine, which might be as effective as a .223, but which is vastly more penetrative in structure or through tissue. "Through tissue" is useful for hunting, but bad for urban defense.

John

roscoe
April 28, 2013, 10:05 PM
How is it that we are not all talking about an SKS? If there were a 5.5 pound version in plastic and 5.56 it would be pretty much perfect as a lightweight 50-state rifle.

Also, I don't believe the SUB-2000 is CA-legal, as it has a pistol grip and detachable mag. The Ruger Deerfield is legal, but the magazines only have 4 rounds.

I have long fantasized about a .44 semi-auto with a 10-round tube magazine and lever-type loading gate, but that is merely a dream. It would be an excuse to wear a bandolier (and smoke a cigar).

Ed Ames
April 28, 2013, 10:13 PM
I don't believe the SUB-2000 is CA-legal, as it has a pistol grip and detachable mag

Which is where the "bullet button" mod (available for $30) comes in. It is basically a cover that goes over the mag release so that a tool is needed to reach in and push the mag release button. Since a tool is needed to remove the magazine the scary features no longer matter (under current law circa 2013).

It is the sort of thing you would install before crossing into CA, and remove after leaving.

As for the SKS, I guess I personally stopped being interested when gun stores stopped having barrels of them out on the floor for $60/ea., but it would be another decent choice if you could get the weight down.

InkEd
April 29, 2013, 01:10 AM
Sounds like an utter waste of time.

Owlnmole
April 29, 2013, 02:33 AM
OK, since this thread has gone off on a couple of tangents, both on the pros and cons of pistol caliber carbines and venting about various state gun regulations, let me bring it back to the original topic with a question.

If you were limited to a ten round magazine capacity (setting aside the removable magazine vs. fixed magazine and stripper clips question for the moment) in a small, light user-friendly carbine for home defense, what caliber would you want and why? Here are some likely candidates.

9mm
.40 S&W
.45 ACP
.44 MAG/.44 SP
.357 MAG/.38 SP
5.7 x 28mm FN
.30 Carbine
.223/5.56
5.45 x 39mm

Cheers,

Matthew

HC_Jack
April 29, 2013, 02:43 AM
When I first read this post it got me thinking about Jeff Cooper's "thumper" concept which has about the same target weight and would be chambered in 44 mag. The Ruger 99/44 would come close with an extended magazine.

Willie Sutton
April 29, 2013, 08:56 AM
Pick up any good pistol caliber lever action and enjoy. There's a reason they dominated self defense carbine designs for about, oh... a hundred years. With a good ghost-ring rear sight they are fast to handle, innocuous to look at, and blend into any environment.


Willie

.

Owlnmole
April 29, 2013, 09:33 AM
Both good suggestions, though unfortunately the Ruger is out of production. The early Ruger .44 carbines had a short tubular magazine inside the forward stock. It occurs to me that such an approach might work well--a pistol-caliber semi-automatic carbine with full-length tubular magazine and either a side-loading gate like a lever gun or bottom-loading gate like a shotgun (perhaps better as it would be ambidextrous). The end result would be very "unscary," like a Marlin 60 .22LR on steroids or a semi-auto version of pump Colt Lighting, and the ergonomics would be familiar to many shotgun users.

Ed Ames
April 29, 2013, 11:30 AM
My father owned/ I've used one of the original Ruger 44 carbines (the model that looks/feels identical to a 10/22) - I would not use one for HD/SD if I had a choice. In fact my experience with it was a large part of why my thumper is a lever gun.

There is a problem with gas operated rifles and revolver cartridges.

Revolvers are very good at handling a wide range of loads. Ammo manufacturers know this and sell ammo that is downright anemic. I've bought what claimed to be full-power .44mag but felt like weak .44 special. I guess a lot of shooters like that because they can claim to be shooting "dirty harry" loads without having so much of that nasty recoil. Unfortunately these aren't marked as low recoil, they just are.

Well guess what...the Ruger gets fussy with light loads. That means you can't just buy whatever ammo is on the shelf. You've got to pick special loads or hand load.

My .454 carbine will feed and fire everything from 800fps cowboy loads to 2000+fps magnum loads without a hiccup. It's ugly (I'm not a cowboy) but it works.

91/30
April 30, 2013, 11:52 AM
I think what you really would be looking at here is a reduced sized pistol caliber sks with peep sights, same concept, more practical design than an M-1.

barnbwt
May 1, 2013, 07:58 PM
Ah, but with a PCC there's no need for a gas/locking system like in the SKS ;). A miniature SKS that shoots a mid-caliber magnum would be pretty sweet, though, and very lightweight. I also like the ideas floated about a lower-capacity tube magazined semi-auto. In addition to appeasing the Fudds, that actually sounds like an incredibly handy package. If short auto-loading rounds like 45ACP could be loaded so as to have soft/blunt tips, you could even end up with a respectable capacity, too. Attaching a crude gas-piston system to a pump rifle would be fairly easy.

Heck, the PS90 could even be argued as being extremely urban-defense-friendly in that it is compact, reliable, and fires a round with limited collateral damage potential that is still effective at close ranges (yes, effective enough to stop an attacker. Not effective enough to stop an attacker guaranteed with one shot anywhere in center mass--no need for ballistics wars :rolleyes:). The top-mounted magazine, as with tube magazines, makes the weapon's profile much less obtrusive. As with the Beretta carbine; just too expensive, and ammo is too unavailable due to FNH's incompetence (with the profit they're making on each round, you'd think they'd have shifted all production lines to 5.7x28 by now ;))

Honestly, the 50 state carbine was already done by Hi-point, and was specifically designed to be legal in as many states as possible during the Ban, but some evil kids got it added to the ban list anyway.

There is no point in a 50 state legal defense carbine, since the current anti gun-law scheme is specifically designed to be complicated so as to make gun ownership as daunting and undesirable as possible. If a semi auto is cooked up that is legal everywhere, it won't be long before some hack goes after it, since "we don't need guns you can find on the streets of Texas in our fair city." Besides, ban-lists aren't even the biggest stumbling block to firearms access in cities and ban-areas. Lack of gun stores, shooting ranges, complicated and expensive permit processes, and a concerted effort by urban society to completely isolate those under its dubious care from firearms are the real barriers to self defense.

TCB

justice06rr
May 2, 2013, 11:08 PM
A 50-state legal PDW is a tall order. I would say some type of rifle with a folding stock offered in pistol or rifle calibers. My take, I will always go for rifle calibers over pistol calibers any day considering if they are offered in the same platform i.e. 5.56 over 9mm in an AR15.

Personally, I actually find a lot of the high-capacity stuff just silly if you're not going to war, more tacticool than necessary. I certainly wouldn't feel underarmed with ten rounds in a handy carbine. I still see a lot of Ruger Mini-14s in regular use with just the stock box of five, even in places where high capacity is not an issue.


I didn't read this whole thread, but that paragraph by the OP is even more silly.

you don't need to go to war to have "standard capacity 30rd magazines". If you want your neutered low cap 10-rd mag, you are free to do so. I certainly would not want to be limited to 10rds on my defensive pistol or rifle if I can help it.

Have you ever lived in a sketchy part of town? think unsavory parts of Detroit, Philly, Miami, or LA. I would bet you will want those "high capacity magazines" if you do.

Arizona_Mike
May 4, 2013, 02:05 AM
Re: the marlin guide 45/70... I think that's another great choice except that the caveat mentioned by JShirley applies in spades to 45/70.

I have a .454 casull lever carbine as my way of having all the problems of a 45/70 ... Overpenetration, recoil, oddball ammo, etc. ... times two since it holds 10+1 rounds.
You are comparing .45/70 to pistol calibers??? That makes no sense at all.

Mike

ExAgoradzo
May 4, 2013, 02:07 AM
1. Love the idea...not sure Im down with stripper clips.
2. Why have I never seen a CX4!!!?
3. Oh yeah, I live in CA.
4. Still would love to see this concept put into practice; till then Marlin 1894 44 Mag. The AR of the 19th century with a 20th cent load.
Greg

Ed Ames
May 4, 2013, 04:15 AM
You are comparing .45/70 to pistol calibers??? That makes no sense at all.

Hah, thank you. It's a great example of what I said before about how people react to pistol calibers. :)

Federal Power-Shok 45/70 300gr muzzle velocity (factory spec) = 1850 fps.
Freedom Arms 300JSN .454 casull muzzle velocity (from rifle) = 2085 fps.

The "pistol caliber" fires the same weight bullet 200fps faster than 45/70. That is comparing factory loads.
Yet people (joking or not, I can't tell) say it makes no sense to compare them, as though of course the "pistol caliber" with a SAMMI spec of 65,000 psi can't possibly compare to an antique rifle cartridge with a SAMMI spec of 28,000 PSI because everyone knows pistol < rifle.

To be clear: It is possible to make hot "modern gun only" handloads in 45/70 that compete with the pistol caliber, but when comparing factory loads it's a safe bet that the .454 from a carbine length barrel at least as powerful as 45/70 from a similar gun.

Or, said another way: My m92 carbine is a smaller, handier version of the marlin guide gun, with the difference that it hits a bit harder and holds twice as much in the magazine. So you're right...makes no sense to think the marlin is in the same league. ;)

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