M1895 Nagant as low cost ccw revolver?


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91/30
April 26, 2013, 04:12 PM
Howdy, I've been lurking for quite some time a year+ and this is my first post. I am very short on cash and considering a Nagant 1895 7.62x38r as a full sized ccw and home defense gun. Is it is worth the cash? $150 near me and the transfer fees make online ones too expensive. Ammo is readily available for less than $25 a box even during all this price hiking insanity. I am of the opinion that if I can't get back to my car with 7 to 14 rounds I'm already done for, so S/A loading is not an issue for me, but over penetration is in the suburban neighborhood in North Texas where I currently reside. Any links on this topic would be appreciated. My other pieces are a 1938 Mosin Nagant 91/30 and a 6-7 year old Remington 870 Express with a 26" super magnum smooth bore (modified choke) and a 20" rifled slug barrel.

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cougar1717
April 26, 2013, 04:46 PM
It's a gun. Would not be on most people's top 25 for either carry or SD, but they are economical. Are they worth the cash...maybe - it's just that for most people these are curio pieces or every once in a while range shooters. I would personally save up for something else, but I'm not in your shoes. I wouldn't worry about loading it, if anything SD related would happen, it's a "seven and run" gun.

The Teacher
April 26, 2013, 04:47 PM
I own a few Nagant revolvers, but don't use them for CCW or HD. The modern factory loads are hugely underpowered, and the full power surplus loads fall somewhere between a .32 and .380. None are offered in hollow point. If it is your only option, it is better than a knife, but if I were you I would keep looking. One of the design requirements was that the round would need to stop a horse from 30-50 ft, but they must have been some emaciated horses.

91/30
April 26, 2013, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the insight, it is the only firearm I can work into the budget that isn't a .22. I agree on saving up for something better, as a Russian history buff a Makarov for me, but there is no ammo near me for it. Seven and run is the plan.

clutch
April 26, 2013, 04:51 PM
I think I'd look for a highpoint 9mm. It probably has a better trigger and definitely reloads faster.

FWIW, I have three M1895's in the safe. Interesting approach to making a revolver.

Clutch

91/30
April 26, 2013, 04:53 PM
Teacher, I hear you on the horses. They were probably old cavalry and artillery horses on their way to the knackers.

Cosmoline
April 26, 2013, 04:54 PM
I've used the Nagant for CCW during budget pinches in the past. They'll work, but I'd use the hotter Fiochi ammo not the CCCP target. I've shot .32's out of them but the accuracy is often poor and there's a lot of blowback crud. They really work best with the proper ammo.

You can also use it to hit someone. It's a really solid piece of work.

Gun Master
April 26, 2013, 04:58 PM
Cost is good now , even though price is higher, and they are being gobbled up quickly. I got a couple before the increase, and I like the old guns, but would not advise it as a good CCW. Moderately large size, stiff double action, plus slow and cumbersome load / reload, are negative factors. Also, relatively small cal. (.30), and FMJ (positive & negative factors). Revolvers are good for beginers, and well used by aces. Their dependability are legendary (the good ones). S&W are the best, but price is high. Good luck on your quest.

The Teacher
April 26, 2013, 05:00 PM
I think I posted some chrono numbers in a post similar to this before, but can't find it at the moment. The soviet target ammo will bounce off of strong paper, the current Fiocchi and Prvi ammo are only about 200fps faster than that, but the 70's and 80's surplus and the old school Fiocchi/Hot Shot gets down range a LOT faster.

91/30
April 26, 2013, 05:04 PM
Thank y'all.

travisd
April 26, 2013, 05:39 PM
If you just want a cheap gun to ccw, you can buy a brand new Taurus .380 for $199. I would imagine it would carry much better than the Nagant IMO. However if you really want a Russian revolver then by all means go for it and get a piece of history.

Kiln
April 26, 2013, 06:39 PM
If you just want a cheap gun to ccw, you can buy a brand new Taurus .380 for $199. I would imagine it would carry much better than the Nagant IMO. However if you really want a Russian revolver then by all means go for it and get a piece of history.
Yeah. The Russian revolver is a classic but has lots of downsides that make it a poor carry choice.

It is heavy, has a terrible DA trigger, has a relatively bad SA trigger, and it is fairly large. They're cool guns and are very affordable but as a CCW, there are better options in similar price ranges.

Gaucho Gringo
April 26, 2013, 08:21 PM
There have been hundreds of thousands of poor souls who have met their maker at the hand of this gun. I would say that more people have been killed with this gun than the total of US war dead from the Revolutionary war to the Afghanistan conflict. It is not to be discounted.

That said I own two of them. They are a part of the hideout guns stashed in my house. Not the first line of defense but not exactly last ditch. They are cheap and no big loss if they get taken as evidence in case I have to defend myself and my family. Not the best but not the worst either.

19-3Ben
April 26, 2013, 08:30 PM
I'm in the camp with those who say that the terrible trigger and slow reloads would knock it out of the running for me.

For only about $50 more, you can have a used Keltec PF9 or similar. It would be worth saving the extra $50, even if it takes a few months.

Sergei Mosin
April 26, 2013, 09:03 PM
If you do carry one, I would recommend carrying with an empty chamber under the hammer. Not exactly what you'd call drop-safe.

Gun Master
April 26, 2013, 09:53 PM
I think I posted some chrono numbers in a post similar to this before, but can't find it at the moment. The soviet target ammo will bounce off of strong paper, the current Fiocchi and Prvi ammo are only about 200fps faster than that, but the 70's and 80's surplus and the old school Fiocchi/Hot Shot gets down range a LOT faster.
How do you know Russian target ammo from good surplus stuff? I don't speak or much less read Russki, as well as most of us. I'm serious. Some retailers might not be very truthful with their customers. Can you recommend reliable ammo sources? Thanks

Mayvik
April 26, 2013, 11:12 PM
Spend a bit more and go CZ82.

Gun Master
April 26, 2013, 11:38 PM
I agree. One of the better choices for an auto loader. Reliable, mid-range power, 12 shot, but a little heavy with all that extra ammo. You have to decide if it's right for you.

WardenWolf
April 27, 2013, 02:27 AM
A Polish P-64 is also a good choice, and fairly cheap. More reliable than a Bersa or Rugger LCP, and fires the 9x18 Makarov round, which is about 10% more powerful than .380. The only downside is the very heavy double-action rigger pull, which can be brought down to a manageable level with an 18-pound hammer spring. The trigger pull is heavy, but not too long, and you can very easily work through it unless you're very weak. The single action trigger is very light. The gun has very good intrinsic accuracy and is very easy to shoot well.

Ammo choices are surprisingly good. There's Silver Bear hollowpoints, which are pretty good and very reliable, and heavy Buffalo Bore loads which put it in the .38 Special range. Sellier & Bellot and Blazer also have FMJ loads. Hornady has 2 offerings in 9x18, but at least one of those will NOT feed in the P-64 (I can't remember which of them I tested). I've shot all the others except the Buffalo Bore, and I'd expect a more niche manufacturer like BB to properly test with all 4 commonly-available 9x18 pistols. I personally carry the Silver Bear hollowpoints right now, but if I could verify the other Hornady or Buffalo Bore loads worked, I'd switch to them.

Onmilo
April 27, 2013, 02:35 AM
Like the Tokarev, the Nagant revolvers are great guns to play with and in a pinch would work for self defense if nothing else was available.
That said, there are far better alternatives out there as a low cost serious ccw weapon.

WardenWolf
April 27, 2013, 02:48 AM
Well, I'd disagree on the Tokarev. The Tokarev can be a downright evil defensive weapon if loaded with hollowpoints. The Wolf hollowpoints are nasty enough, but if you handload, Gold Dots are just plain evil. Brass Fetcher's slow-motion videos show a massive wound cavity and cyclonic rotation in the gel. We're talking damage equal to or slightly superior to a good 9mm or .45 bullet. If I had to choose one pistol round for causing a disgusting amount of damage, it would probably be a Tokarev hollowpoint.

The Teacher
April 27, 2013, 10:08 AM
How do you know Russian target ammo from good surplus stuff? I don't speak or much less read Russki, as well as most of us. I'm serious. Some retailers might not be very truthful with their customers. Can you recommend reliable ammo sources? Thanks
Usually the target ammo comes in 40rd boxes which are bright yellow or white. The surplus comes in 1,092rd tins or the small 14rd boxes. I've attached some photos I found online of the Soviet B-1 target ammo and the surplus ammo. The target ammo is the yellow box, and the surplus is in the white/brown box and tin. If I'm reading the numbers correctly, I believe this surplus was made in 1988 with powder produced in 1985. I'm not sure about the age of the Soviet B-1 target ammo. If you have a Nagant target model like the MTs-4, the B-1 target ammo is insanely accurate, but not too peppy. Aim Surplus used to have a lot in stock and will probably be getting more:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A76238RFMJ&name=Russian+7.62x38R+FMJ+14rd+box&groupid=124

I think several other places have it in stock right now, like Grafs and Wideners.

Also, the revolver actually has a hammer block, so it is most likely safe to carry on a loaded chamber, as it is nearly impossible to fire without pulling the trigger (which is difficult enough), but I still wouldn't recommend it as a carry weapon:)

Lj1941
April 27, 2013, 10:19 AM
:)Not a super good choice,but any gun in the hand beats nothing. My 1895 is not a model of accuracy but it would do for me in a pinch.On the other hand a CZ82 in 9MM Makarov is a highly accurate pistol with a double stack mag and is a deadly accurate piece at roughly double the cost of an 1895 Nagant.:banghead:

MedWheeler
April 27, 2013, 11:51 AM
As a HD gun, I bet I could make it work. Can't imagine carrying it all the time, and then's when I carry, all the time. I'd rather look around for a surplus Taurus 82 police trade-in. They're pretty easy to find and run at or below $200. Ammo is easier to find (usually) and available in more versatile loads.


That being said, the next time I run across one for that price, I'll probably pick it up just to have. I wanted a M/N rifle, but didn't get one in time before the price hikes, and I am a bit of a Russophile (I even have a Russian wife.)

raubvogel
April 27, 2013, 12:09 PM
I myself am looking for a nagant revolver, but I think you would be much happier with a Makarov. The high point C9 is also accurate and cheap but is a bit large; great for bedside weapon though.

91/30
April 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
How hard is it to find 7.62x 25 hollow points for hand loading? I would love a PMm, a p64, or a cz 82, but 9x18 is not available near me and the local shops are making the consumers pay the hazmat fee for ordering ammo off a list, and not taking special orders. I checked out the high point, but it did not fit me well, Im 5'7" and below 150lbs, it was just too chunky to conceal. What cal is that Taurus?

91/30
April 28, 2013, 11:50 AM
Also, does anyone know of a reliable source of Tokarevs, not the shoddy new zatavas, but older polish or Romanian ones? Or Bulgarian PMms?

Janos Dracwlya
April 28, 2013, 03:35 PM
I have a Nagant, which I don't shoot much owing to the expense of factory ammunition. It would be far from my first choice for a defensive gun, but, in common with most of my guns, I keep a small amount of defensive ammunition for it - .32 S&W Long hollow-points, which will also work in my Iver-Johnson top-break - just in case. The trigger-pull is heavy and it would be slow to reload if needed.

On the other hand, it is a very well constructed gun, and I would at least have no doubt of it functioning when needed.

I also remember reading at least one article in Backwoodsman (I think) where the author was quite complimentary of it as a low-cost .32 pistol for wandering the woods.

Deltaboy
April 28, 2013, 07:41 PM
Get a Hi-Point.

Swing
April 28, 2013, 08:23 PM
I'd take one over nothing in a heartbeat, but the trigger really damns it as a defense revolver. In fact, I can't think of a worse wheelgun trigger that I've ever shot over the years.

raubvogel
April 28, 2013, 08:40 PM
91/30, I have seen tools to drill a cavity in a 7.62x25 and make it hollow point. Does it worth it? I dunno, I personally would keep it FMJ. But, it does have a rather massive cartridge behind that bullet.

WRT 9x18, I only know of two places here selling that round. I usually look for it online, even in these times.

91/30
April 29, 2013, 02:54 PM
Has anyone used this http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/diy-extreme-hollow-point-maker-kit.aspx?a=891185 ? If so, was it worth the money? Again, Hi-point does not fit me well. I am investigating the tokarev, a zastava m-57 new for $200 near me, with some ammo at a reasonable price. but that moves out of revolvers and into autoloaders.

45_auto
April 29, 2013, 03:41 PM
There must be a 100 gun shops and pawn shops in Dallas within a 15 or 20 minute drive of you. I just picked up a 2" barrel S&W Model 10 in like new condition for $179 last week.

If you're serious about concealed carry and self-defense, get something proven and practical. If you're just looking for an excuse for something to play with, get the Tokarov or Zastava and the hollow pointing doohickey and justify it to yourself as self-defense.

91/30
April 29, 2013, 04:12 PM
45_auto I am not a fan of pawnshop guns, had a couple of bad ones from different shops. The other issue is ammo. While I can get a model 10 it can't take +p defense loads and .38 special defensive rounds are just too expensive, when I can find them. Whereas at the cabelas down the street I cam get an arsenal refurbished nagant and a box of ammo for $173+ plus tax.

91/30
April 29, 2013, 04:52 PM
Also to those of you saying 7.62x38r is underpowered, I've read that the corrosive surplus ammo is twice the power of the commercial stuff and is available online for about $400 for 1092 rounds.

Hokkmike
April 29, 2013, 05:21 PM
There are two at my LGS. They have been there a long time. Buck and a half. Look OK -but I not moving....

The Teacher
April 29, 2013, 05:36 PM
Also to those of you saying 7.62x38r is underpowered, I've read that the corrosive surplus ammo is twice the power of the commercial stuff and is available online for about $400 for 1092 rounds.
I've seen two different loads from the surplus.

82gr at 1200-1300fps
105gr at 800-900fps.

I believe the PPU loads are 98gr at 600-700fps.

Midwest
April 29, 2013, 05:51 PM
I also suggest getting a Hi-point. I have the .45 acp and it is a good shooter, fairly accurate, never jammed. Cost like $150 something....

ljnowell
April 29, 2013, 05:56 PM
45_auto I am not a fan of pawnshop guns, had a couple of bad ones from different shops. The other issue is ammo. While I can get a model 10 it can't take +p defense loads and .38 special defensive rounds are just too expensive, when I can find them. Whereas at the cabelas down the street I cam get an arsenal refurbished nagant and a box of ammo for $173+ plus tax.

Thats the most backwards thinking I have ever read. I would take a standard pressure 38 load over a nagant round any day of the week. Not to mention that the model 10 will most definately take +p ammo for carry purposes. Would I shoot asteady diet of it? No, I wouldnt out of any 38. Would I shoot a cylinder to see how it hits, then carry it? Absolutely.

91/30
April 30, 2013, 12:14 AM
I would risk that if it was a new gun or one I knew how many rounds were put through it. I would not trust a worn out weakened cylinder on a gun with an unknown history to handle +p.

ljnowell
April 30, 2013, 12:57 AM
I would risk that if it was a new gun or one I knew how many rounds were put through it. I would not trust a worn out weakened cylinder on a gun with an unknown history to handle +p.


Balderdash. There is no reason not to. I'm not sure if you know this, but prior to +p spec ammo, the standard was +p. When they made +p spec, they didnt start loading hot ammo. Standard spec became +p and watered down became standard. Those guns shot +p ammo way back when, it was just called "38 special." There is no reason to be afraid to carry +p ammo in a model 10 S&W. None at all. I certainly wouldnt trust my life to ruskie milsurp in an underpowered cartridge like the 7.62 nagant over a 38. Even if you only carried standard pressure ammo. That just simply defies all logic

If sounds like you just want someone to say to you "yeah, that sounds like a great idea, do it!" Well, its not. There are many better options for the same, or just a little more money.

Onmilo
April 30, 2013, 08:00 AM
Any Model 10 S&W that is marked -4 or greater is capable of handling +P ammunition.
Pre war hand ejectors cannot take the strain of +P loads due to metallurgiucal differences and post war guns prior to -4s have a habit of unscrewing the ejector rod with high pressure loads.

Early Nagant revolvers have the same metallurgical issues as the early S&Ws and add to that the fact wartime guns were being made for people who had a life expectancy of about a week once they got into combat with the issue weapon sinking into the mud of the battlefield or being destroyed along with the soldier. you can understand why high power/high pressure loads are not recommended for these guns

Stainz
April 30, 2013, 09:01 AM
Yes, comrade, this is what you need - an 1895 Nagant, holster, and lanyard. Perhaps a Swiss Army Knife as your 'tactical' knife, like my Vic ALOX Farmer... it would make as much sense today. Oh, the ammo is a Meister 100gr LDEWC over enough Titegroup to make 700 fps (WOW!) and loaded in a 'modified' .32-20 case. Each case had .010" taken off the rim thickness, .024" taken off the rim OD (Yep, on a lathe!), and was sized in a Lee carbide M1 Carbine die - then loaded with .32 dies. The short case does not 'bridge the b/c gap', so it can spit a bit but will enjoy a longer case life due to it's thick mouth thickness. Starline briefly made the proper brass, but the short reloading life halted that. Lee did make an 1895 Nagant die set, albeit with a steel sizer. Most folks don't realize that the proper case is tapered - a la the .30 Carbine round. A straight-walled .32, like the .32 S&W/S&WL/H&RM, will wiggle around - and bulge or split upon firing. The .32 H&RM rounds should not be used due to their higher pressure. Check the gunboards forum's sub-forum on 1895 Nagants for more info.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/IMG_3425a.jpg

I got a C&R ffl just to have these things delivered to my door. Arsenal refurbed - and looking almost new - they were as little as $65 +$10 s/h with holster, lanyard, screwdriver, & cleaning rod, back then. Checking my log book from 8/04, I chronoed the Russian Target ammo @ 572 fps; Fiocchi @ 690 fps, and Magtech .32 S&WL 98gr LRN @ 604 fps. The Fiocchi cases could usually be reloaded once, while the .32 S&WL brass was bulged & split, rendering it ready for the brass recycling bin - like the Ruskie cases, with their snake-eyes primer holes. The Serbian ammo available today seems warmer than the Fiocchi was - I need to chrono it. It is reloadable, too - at least once - and is of the proper length, a la the Fiocchi.

I wouldn't carry or employ as a home protector, a Nagant as a self protection revolver. Even at ~$200 today, it really is nothing more, to me, than a novelty. Tweaked and cleaned, you might get down to 20 lb on the DA trigger pull. Some folks will need the help of adrenaline to pull the trigger. A far better choice would be a 2"-4" S&W Model 64, a la a security guard trade-in ($200-$300). The 64 is a SS Model 10 - and is inherently +P rated. Even .38 Spcl 148gr full wadcutters, aka 'target' ammo, will be a better 'man-stopper' than anything you could load in a Nagant today. Of course, if you want a Russian made and hand-fitted novel example of Victorian engineering - designed by the Belgian brothers Nagant - and it looks clean with a bright bore - grab it. Save your $ and buy a .38 revolver for 'protection'.

Stainz

Onmilo
April 30, 2013, 09:17 AM
I've done all the math.
I can get a reload tooting along at 900 fps using a 90 grain jacketed hollowpoint or jacketed flatpoint and loaded EXACTLY like the original Nagant using Privi or Fiocci cases.
Problem is getting all the stuff to do it, bullets are near impossible to find, powder and primers are still a be in the right place at the right time sort of thing and getting all the bits to assemble a correct set of dies is a catch as catch can proposition.

My Nagant is a hobby in the works that will ultimately cost me more in goodies than the original purchase price of the firearm,,,

91/30
April 30, 2013, 11:31 AM
ljnowell, I had no idea that the old standard was +p thanks for correcting my misconception. I'll look around for a model 10, or 64. Might still get the Nagant as a plinker, and history piece.

WardenWolf
April 30, 2013, 02:30 PM
How hard is it to find 7.62x 25 hollow points for hand loading? I would love a PMm, a p64, or a cz 82, but 9x18 is not available near me and the local shops are making the consumers pay the hazmat fee for ordering ammo off a list, and not taking special orders. I checked out the high point, but it did not fit me well, Im 5'7" and below 150lbs, it was just too chunky to conceal. What cal is that Taurus?
Gold Dot has .30 caliber pistol hollowpoints available, I know that much. They're what Brass Fetcher used for their tests. They created some horrifying results. So if you choose to reload, you should use those bullets. One nice thing about the Tokarev is that it's very reliable across cartridge variations, and even when converting to a different cartridge. The feed lips are part of the gun's hammer assembly, not the magazine, so that also helps.

91/30
April 30, 2013, 02:51 PM
Is that the .30 carbine that is advertised? Will that work?

natman
May 1, 2013, 02:54 AM
A Nagant would be better than nothing for self defense, but not by much. The heavy DA trigger is a problem, ammo availability is a problem, slow reloading is a problem.

It's a neat artifact, an interesting side note in the history of revolver development, but for any practical use you'd be far better off with an S&W Model 10 in 38 Special.

Onmilo
May 1, 2013, 10:30 AM
Putting the idea of the Nagant as a "Low cost CCW revolver" to rest.
The gun cost me $130, cheap enough right?
250 rounds of ammo, reloadable, shipped, $145,,wait,,what????
Dies and parts to convert dies to properly load Nagant cases $60, shipped, (These are Lee dies, cheaper than the RCBS Nagant specific dies which cost $160!, ouch)
300 85 grain jacketed HP bullets $58 shipped, just shy of 20 cents a bullet. That is JUST the bullet mind you. You can load this cartridge with lead bullets. You will quickly come to regret the decision if you shoot any meaningful quantities at any one time.

So, $130+$145+$60+$58=$423 for the gun & 550 rounds of ammo.
I wanted one of these guns for my collection, no regrets in that department.
You are kidding yourself if you think these guns are a poor mans way to play.

Taurus revolvers crop up and generally sell for less than $300 and .38 Special ammo is usually available in some quantity just about everywhere and that ammo situation will change in time.

91/30
May 1, 2013, 11:54 AM
I've decide to only get the only nagant as a curiosity piece, and to fill the gap until I can find a reliable source of .38 special.

smle41
May 2, 2013, 06:06 PM
91/30
As a stopgap, certainly.. even if that would be "it", do it, as, after all, it's a gun, so it means the basic criteria of 'having a gun'. I treat mine as a 'single action', so the trigger is more manageable, and they are inexpensive alternatives to things (such as a hi point) that, as you noted, don't 'fit you'.
Get one, you won't go wrong. :)

CarbineWilliams
May 2, 2013, 11:50 PM
As I understand it, Nagant is a Belgium company and Belgium is a country that holds all of their corps to high standards FWIS.

I will say that I have fired several hundred thousand rounds from multiple FN Herstal M240C's and when I treated them right they never jammed, and of course I'm still here so they never blew up... they were about six inches to left of my head.

If you have an early Nagant made in Belgium, then I think it's a great weapon. If it is a later one made in the USSR, then I don't know.

The best attribute of any revolver is reliability (else buy a semi). Belgs make good guns, otherwise Browning wouldn't have trusted them. Once Nagant let them be made in USSR then I'm not sure. I've heard good things about Soviet Nagants, though.

Onmilo
May 4, 2013, 04:32 PM
Was at an LGS in Pekin this a.m. They had 4 Nagant rebuilds with holsters and all the other stuff. $180 rounded + tax and call and they ain't coming off the price but they don't out and out rob people either.
Two boxes of Privi ammo, (Store Limit on handgun ammo per day) cost me $58 bucks out the door.

Again, so much for low cost now,,,,:(

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