Why Is The Steyr AUG So Damn Special?


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SteyrAUG
February 3, 2003, 02:59 PM
All many know about them is they are really expensive and many wonder what the big deal is. So it is my intention to point out some of the features and functions of these weapons.

I will focus more on user features than technical data which is available anywhere. I will also omit the standard history and development of the weapon.

This way the indivdual can decide if it is something they would like to own for themselves.

First things first, like most preban firearms, the Steyr AUG has a artificially inflated price due to a ban on importation and limited availability. Currently they go for anywhere from $3,500-4,200.00 depending upon local demand. When they were imported they retailed for about $600.00. For referrence a Colt Green Label A2 20" retailed for $300.00 at the same time. So they were roughly 2x what a good AR15 would cost. The only reason preban AUGs command 3x the price of preban ARs is there are fewer AUGs than AR15s.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQB0cJIO4DuZVurO!O0sH5AaqHaKYUkmLzg4H6EZZb*P2fm4qAmWUDAAnIti4l*Gnf7DdhLi06g/aug01.JPG

The AUG we will be looking at is a Standard 20" Green.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJMOBzyV9RDLuczrEWk6NXCkGFfcO7PijNGjW8Kn03uEzjxE5s0qD3BclcHskAd*tcmd!Sc/aug02.JPG

The first BFD feature is the interchangable barrel system. Right above the forward grip is a knob that when slid over disengages the barrel lock.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQD**5QOLjyW2ofq5w1iRzo2!UVVGke*r64VUUXJzSYUSsSdrZ8ItUZ0qA5J60tfMG0z4*h6X6s/aug03.JPG

When depressed the barrel releases.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQB0cJUOVTy8uL5iyeZUXiNHZL7qxo7vkPgaS!60hjpPEO3HvMCzG2ZNaT1rayNmDmK2WJa9U1w/aug04.JPG

The concept is rather than carry sniper rifles, assault rifles and SMGs, everyone carries the same weapon with 3 barrels. A short 16" for SMG use, a 20" for AW use and a 24" HBAR for sniping applications.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJYOfDzwBkcbWa4jbIwUjXD7wqOceK!RysxO7cqhznODAf4FQKL*uE7finueY1MjcItwbV4/aug05.JPG

The forward pistol grip folds for ease of carrying spare barrels or shooting prone.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJcOozx2REFte3n51CCAql6Nxxpb*hoJJSQ63cq7B01ffNMsCuid5r2QVtp548tfW9Rl1O8/aug06.JPG

Behind the magazine is the magazine release button.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJgOyjxSYu0!jb6Jg5DAB1d0fmIQvIHlgJY3HxDnHCZ10X6D6NWmT7rAdy!dt*3RMiHlnno/aug07.JPG

It is oversized so that it may be operated with another magazine.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJkO8Tz0T!I5N3ouyT80uPTC2CzAV2Vvq4X!cTHefgehBwwEqdTxsnnJA624FOmIXIQ6Khc/aug08.JPG

Magazines are clear so ammo supply can be monitored.

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SteyrAUG
February 3, 2003, 03:01 PM
http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJoOGD3zGL9b8FPA9dGrF2pnYHDDsnkgNLnA!np5u6GYGsjKjk7ygwq0RD78QgYzRFRxyWc/aug09.JPG

On the cocking knob is a small button that when depressed functions as a forward assist to manually seat the bolt. The safety is a standard crossbar behind the trigger.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQBwGpIO4TseP54mb*brTTOMdT1glgh1GZu*nuHWvhkTWne8VHCU2oDLJZoG8SFL8wcEe*IydwQ/aug10.JPG

Field stripping is done by removing the rear sling pin and buttplate.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJMOCDyzoscs7VuwF25tJAECQfzKiDpjKzbpqy38xN9eUB5BzKOrVs7uSwndAwfO9PqpE80/aug11.JPG

In the buttstock is a storage area for the clean kit.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJQOLzzN5sbRMEBPPtr6DHAIy3DVztAUMXMQ4MumH6FudedP216EPs98d7DajySQCfLFrK8/aug12.JPG

The operating system is simple. Cocking handle is on left and it has a last shot bolt hold open. Optics are a Swarovski 4x scope.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQAAAJUOVjwqjhSBQMi8hC3TcOBdC*nIdAjiyVZwXh5Y2MfACvkW06mllGUnjPWG2L2SyxaW1Eo/aug13.JPG

A feature overlooked by many is the iron sights on top of the scope tube.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LQB0cJcOpDwzs5dpSBDCPk!HzQ46Pc54mSiteBBhOP4abPRJAqzw2AAhu4YwZEa!TnK6mNNZ9lo/aug15.JPG

Standard circle (Donut of Death) reticle. Optics are much better than the pictures suggest.

762x51
February 3, 2003, 03:06 PM
Some nice Aug pics in there. Nice gun. Congrats.

Hkmp5sd
February 3, 2003, 04:20 PM
I don't care why they are special, I just want one!! :) And a select fire one at that.

Joe Demko
February 3, 2003, 06:11 PM
Because you have one?

Schuey2002
February 3, 2003, 06:28 PM
"Why are they so Damn special?" *shrug*

Who cares?! They just look "DAMN" coooooooool! :D

Once again, I'm jealous of your collection. :banghead:

Your simply evil, Steyr Aug .... Evil, I tell you ! :evil::D :evil:

SteyrAUG
February 3, 2003, 07:31 PM
FYI, the "What Is So Special About..." is a series of posts I did on another forum. Also did "What Is So Special About The HK MP5", etc.

Most people know these guns are top of the line by reputation, but don't know exactly why.

Wildalaska
February 3, 2003, 08:20 PM
Having owned them and shot them, full and semi, they are nice toys that are clearly waaaaay down the list of useful military weapons.

Great for collectors, general gul lovers and Hollywood commandos...also make excellent wolf hunting rigs for snow machine hunting.

WildasktheaussiesAlaska

SteyrAUG
February 3, 2003, 08:43 PM
Having owned them and shot them, full and semi, they are nice toys that are clearly waaaaay down the list of useful military weapons.

I got two guys on my crew who were Aussie SASR who strongly disagree with your evaluation.

Deadman
February 3, 2003, 09:06 PM
SteyrAug where in the sam hell did you get a 4x scope for your Aug :confused: Afterall the standard is a 1.5x scope.


Even though I've used the Aug extensively in the Australian Army, I don't share your enthusiasm for the Aug. Maybe thats due to the fact that I've used 5+year old versions that have been dragged through dirt and mud and then not cleaned properly etc., whereas you have a brand new well maintained rifle.
But nonetheless there are a few points you failed to mention.

- The cocking handle being made out of plastic is very susceptible to damage, especially when dragged through an obstacle course for eg. (if not broken off entirely).

- If the foregrip is loose, it will decrease accuracy by affecting
barrel harmonics.

- The thin barrel heats up to quickly and has been known to bend if someone is to aggresive when it comes to bayonet fighting drills.

- While the Aug does have iron sights ( or 'emergency battle sights' as the Aus. Army calles them ), the sight radius is only about 5 inches.

- While I have utilised the clear aspect of Aug mags to see how many bullets remain, once your down to the last 12 or so rounds, those rounds will be hidden by the butt stock.

Now don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit that the Aug is a compact, light and user friendly rifle that will get the job done when required. But its not the greatest rifle out there, and definately not worth $3000+.

Zundfolge
February 3, 2003, 09:30 PM
I would own one in a heart beat if I could ... but other then American gun collectors I've never heard anyone who has had to carry one on duty say many nice things about them.


Now an FAMAS. THATS a great bullpup rifle :)

Braz
February 3, 2003, 09:47 PM
The most beautiful of all black (and green) rifles.

None has it's graceful, sweeping lines. Thanks for the walk-thru SA. I'd like to request the M4 as your next article. I wasn't in the military and would love to learn more about it's bolt assist and manual of arms. Manual aperture control will help with close-up focus if you use a tripod. Have fun!

dude
February 3, 2003, 10:43 PM
I bought one from Jim's pawn shop back in the pre-ban/Army days but was not happy with the ballance, fit and shootability as compared to an AR-15 A1 and never shot it much.


I sold it a few years back for an OBSCENE profit.

SteyrAUG
February 3, 2003, 11:09 PM
SteyrAug where in the sam hell did you get a 4x scope for your Aug Afterall the standard is a 1.5x scope.

Sorry that spec was from one of my A2 AUGs. You are correct the Standard A1 is a 1.5x.

And many of your complaints listed below pertained to original A1 versions manufactured for the Aussie Army that were NOT manufactured by Steyr of Austia.

-The cocking handle being made out of plastic is very susceptible to damage, especially when dragged through an obstacle course for eg. (if not broken off entirely).

- If the foregrip is loose, it will decrease accuracy by affecting
barrel harmonics.

- The thin barrel heats up to quickly and has been known to bend if someone is to aggresive when it comes to bayonet fighting drills.

- While the Aug does have iron sights ( or 'emergency battle sights' as the Aus. Army calles them ), the sight radius is only about 5 inches.

- While I have utilised the clear aspect of Aug mags to see how many bullets remain, once your down to the last 12 or so rounds, those rounds will be hidden by the butt stock.

A couple to be addressed specifically.

ALL AUGS are piss poor for bayo use. The barrel is vulnerable and the mount sucks.

And yeah, when getting low you cannot see the final rounds in the mag. But how many are left in your M16? :D


Now don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit that the Aug is a compact, light and user friendly rifle that will get the job done when required. But its not the greatest rifle out there, and definately not worth $3000+.

Never said it was the greatest, and as noted above the price is artificial. On the international market they cost about $1000.00.

Zundfolge
February 4, 2003, 12:26 AM
What do you think of the USR?

http://www.adcofirearms.com/steyr.jpg

There's 3 of them on Gunbroker. One for $2600 and two for $2700.

Other then the addition of a piece of plastic between the bottom of the grip and the stock to make a sort of thumbhole stock (to get around Comrade Clinton), I don't see any real difference.

Nightcrawler
February 4, 2003, 12:32 AM
So what, exactly are the differences between the AUG A1 and A2?

Hkmp5sd
February 4, 2003, 12:50 AM
Why does the USR need the extra "thumbhole" piece? Looks like a pistol grip would be it's one legal evil feature without it.

Kaylee
February 4, 2003, 01:01 AM
Why does the USR need the extra "thumbhole" piece? Looks like a pistol grip would be it's one legal evil feature without it.



I think that foldy-down foregrippy thing makes another evil feature. Can't have the rubes playing tommy gun y'know... they might get ideas.



-K

tex_n_cal
February 4, 2003, 01:09 AM
Okay, so a bad case blows its head next to your ear. Do you lose hearing in both ears, or merely one?:(

SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 01:53 AM
Basically the diff between the AUG and the USR is:

1. Thumbhole stock that inhibits one handed mag changes.

2. USR does not have the same quick change barrel system.

3. No flash hider bull barrel on the USR.

4. The USR does have the removable scope/rail system found on the AUG A2, a advantage over the A1 AUG.

5. USR only comes in gray.

The AUGA2 (special receiver) will accept full auto parts where the AUG A1 required modifications for legal title II conversions to full auto.

Additional info:

The foregrip is not a "evil feature" listed in the 1994 AW ban. The thumbhole stock on the USR allowed it to be imported as a "sporter version" when the AUG was banned in 1989. The USR was banned shortly thereafter.

tex_n_cal, don't know yet. ;) But I was present for a M1A Kaboom and it rang my ears a good 10 mins and severly injured the shooter. Also was present when a .308 Galil ARM went and that one wasn't quiet either.

Zundfolge
February 4, 2003, 02:09 AM
Well since a USR is under $3000 and AUGs are usualy around $5000 - $6000, would you consider the USR as subsitute?


5. USR only comes in gray.

Looks like black ones are available ... must be rare
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7289179

http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2002-12-01/armorman_1038933908_24nov02AUGBlack.JPG

*8*
February 4, 2003, 02:09 AM
Nice rifle ya got there Steyr :)

Here's another one..

http://www.federalarsenal.com/SAUG002.jpg


*8*

Wildalaska
February 4, 2003, 02:42 AM
got two guys on my crew who were Aussie SASR who strongly disagree with your evaluation.

Hmm are we gonna contend its superior to the M16? Or superior to the G3 or FAL or even an AK as a military weapon...??

And no offense to the Aussies, they are our allies, but not major players...

Of course the AUG is far better that that thing the Brits use...

WilditsanicetoyregardlessAlaska

SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 02:59 AM
Zundfolge, you should be looking for AUGs in the $3,500-4,200.00 price range. If you can't find one in that range email me and I will.


Wildalaska, I don't think your gonna get them to say that. And it's not what I was trying to say either. I'd easily say it is superior to the AK (except in very specific AOs) but overall it is less desirable than a M16 variant.

And yeah the AUG remains better than the SA80 (L85A1) even with the SA80A2 variant offered by H&K.

Let me say this, I'd be very comfortable kitting out with a AUG.

Wildalaska
February 4, 2003, 03:13 AM
I'd easily say it is superior to the AK (except in very specific AOs)

Come on Steyr...:what:

The Steyr Aug has an accuracy advantage over the AK...and thats it....and even that does not matter on the modern battlefield...

Its far less sturdy...or to put it another way, far more fragile...

Im sure you recall the receiver cracking problem....

I like them..they are cool..if thats all I had when the balloon went up, Id use it...but it would never be my first choice for a battle rifle...

WildletsbereasonablehereAlaska

Schuey2002
February 4, 2003, 03:16 AM
Zundfolge,

The black Steyr USR in that picture has either had its plastic parts RIT-dyed or it has been "thermal dye sublimated" by someone like Keith Buckner...

Check out the bottom of this link on his webpage.:)

http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/SL8/clients/

thumbtack
February 4, 2003, 03:47 AM
Thanks for the info on the AUG, I fill a little more educated now. Although I still think it is uglier than a baboons butt .

SteyrAUG
February 4, 2003, 11:27 AM
Wildalaska, I stand by my assessment of AUG vs. AK.

The AUG is so vastly superior in many respects I am forced to doubt your experience with one.

1. The ONLY AUGs I'm aware of with quality control (durabilit/function) issues were those made independently of Steyr for the Australian Army. They were so bad, the Aussies replaced them with factory Steyrs. To hold one accountable for the other is akin to measuring the German H&KMP5 by Pakistani contract examples.

2. While a link does not exist (not everything is online ya know) I have seen a integrity test where AUGs (and other small arms) were run over by trucks, etc. The AUG and the optics both survived and functioned where many (including the AKM broke).

3. The Kalishnikov is more reliable than the AUG but that doesn't mean it is necessarily stronger. It is also harder to stop a AKM than it is a AUG. But the AUG like any firearm with tigheter tolerances ends up being more accurate.

4. I have NEVER heard of a AUG receiver breaking. That comment convinces me you might be thinking of the SA80 and not the AUG. The AUG receiver is extremely compact and robust and would survive long after a AKM receiver finally fractured. One a side note the "milled" AK47 would probably outlast the AUG receiver but at teh expense of added weight.

In virtually every situation the AUG would be superior to the AKM. The one exception being limited visibilty/range and hostile environment (ie jungle where AKMs reign supreme) where accuracy is not a specific requirement.

That said the AUG did not fair as well when compared to the M16. In fact I think the ONLY torture test where the AUG beat the M16 was in terms of magazine integrity. The USGI mags split open under stress before the AUG mags did. I'd have lost that bet. ;)

George Hill
February 4, 2003, 01:06 PM
Thanks for this thread, SteyrAug. Very educational.

I remember seeing these AUGs for sale at a gunshop near Roanoke, Virginia for only 615 bucks. 20" Green ones if I remember right. I could have picked up 4 or 5 of them at the time... but instead I wanted something else and spent the money on the other item.
Now the AUG's are worth there weight in Gold!

I WISH MY CRYSTAL BALL WORKED!!!
:banghead:

another48hrs
February 4, 2003, 11:09 PM
If anyone is intersested they have an Aug with mags and accessories on sturmgewehr for $3800.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=58799

Wildalaska
February 5, 2003, 12:53 AM
The AUG is so vastly superior in many respects I am forced to doubt your experience with one.

Steyr, Steyr, Steyr...guess you are so dustraught by someone not bowing to your treasured toy that you must resort to statements like that..

Not that its even worthy of comment, but how many rounds do you have to fire from an AUG to be experienced with one?

But regardless..look at this grudging admission...

The Kalishnikov is more reliable than the AUG but that doesn't mean it is necessarily stronger. It is also harder to stop a AKM than it is a AUG. But the AUG like any firearm with tigheter tolerances ends up being more accurate.

Lets repeat that...the Kalashnikov is more reliable than the AUG...so tell me how that makes the AUG superior then..because its more accurate?...Like MOA is any more valuable than MOM on the battle field if your gun just dont work....

Again, I am not denigrating your precious toy..Im just being realistic...the AUG just aint an AR or an AK when it comes to battle..

O and by the way, I personally have shot as good at 100 yards with an AK in 5.45 as I have with an AUG...

And what pray tell do you use for sights when the cute optics break....

WildguessilljustgooutandshootonethisweekendAlaska

SteyrAUG
February 5, 2003, 01:11 AM
Wildalaska, just because it happens to be my username doesn't mean I worship it as a deity.

The AKM is more reliable than virtually any small arm. This is because of the loose tolerances. This means it will run no matter how much crap you stick in the receiver.

But all weather/all condition reliability doesn't make it superior to all other firearms. The AKM is inferior to many firearms in overall respects.

The list of superior firearms is long:

The AR15/M16
The FNC
The Sig 550
The HK 33/93
and yes the AUG.

There is more to overall performance than just "will run under mud." For example the UZI is probably more reliable than the MP5, but that don't necessarily make it better.

As for:

O and by the way, I personally have shot as good at 100 yards with an AK in 5.45 as I have with an AUG...

That is unremarkable. Both perform well within 100 yards. Especially the AK74 which is ballistically superior to the AK47 we were discussing earlier. However take them out to 250 yards and the difference is remarkable.

And as for:
And what pray tell do you use for sights when the cute optics break....

Which seems to be the mantra of the "My AKM is just as good as your AUG" crowd. There are irons on top of that rail. But they have a short sight radius. Thankfully the optics are virtually indestructable. Again I've seen PEs of a AUG run over by a truck and the optics did NOT break.

But since we are discussing unlikely scenarios. What happens when your AKM gets wacked and the front sight post is canted 10 degrees? And PLEASE don't tell me that can't happen. The same force required to break the AUG optics would hose over a AKM front sight at least that far.

That is because the AKM is reliable, not indestructable.

I have nothing against AKMs. I have several. And just like ANY of my firearms I understand their respective strengths and limitations.

I aplogize that my first topic here wasn't "What Is So Damn Special About The AKM?" However I'm willing to believe if that had been the topic you'd be here busting my stones about the merits and superiority of the AR15/M16.

With the exception of very specific applications the AUG is superior to the AKM. Please just deal with it. I can accept the fact that many firearms are superior to the AUG, the AKM just ain't one of them.

dude
February 5, 2003, 01:13 AM
FWIW- I really (really) like my Styer Mauser in .308!


.....but would pass on another AUG even if offered it for the 80s price. Perhaps if it had been the first battle-type rifle I had expierenced, however I had already sent 10s of 1000s of rounds downrange with my own AR-15 before going to Army Basic and the whole 'bull-pup' vibe of the AUG did not do it for me.

As you can imagine it irritated the Drill Sgts to no end when I started to clear jams right away becasue I could fell the difference in recoil......as opposed to the rest of the guys/gals who did not start to clear the malfunction untill the next target was 'up' and only realized the problem when pulling the trigger!

Kobun
February 5, 2003, 10:19 PM
The AUG is highly modular.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1008112
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

T.Stahl
February 6, 2003, 07:38 PM
Pro:
The Steyr AUG surely is the best bullpup rifle in the world.
Con:
If I was given a choice, I'd still choose something different.

Bullpups have one major advantage, shorter overall length. And that's it.

SteyrAUG
February 6, 2003, 09:05 PM
T.Stahl, I wouldn't say that is the only advantage.

Interchangeable barrels for specific applications is probably just as significant a factor where the AUG is concerned.

But relative length is a big deal. Getting a full 20" barrel in the space of a collapsable carbine is pretty nice.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QgAXA8cSrFsRetBSoUz5Uf1FaQBKRvQbYpptvAP3Xx9zaG6eFYMLf3in2ZejpWBoa97AX2pOW5*!B!3Hn59noP!YYGyg31qzxLusEZ!XkcI/ar03.JPG

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QgAAAMgS6VtCtv1tbjuXdVLlOQWTT*0fjqP1c0gIu59NF1WtqXZp4mJfipEDEa4KUMdOCcRPfl8Qr5LNO26ZCm4pCJMpYRWVmNhpzZYFz!A/ar04.JPG

Wildalaska
February 7, 2003, 02:26 AM
The AKM is more reliable than virtually any small arm.

Deal with it....

WildliketheAUGbutrealisticAlaska

:neener:

fixer
February 7, 2003, 10:52 AM
what's so special about a crappy trigger and hard-to-get, overpriced parts?

when a buddy loaned me his, i iad a heck of a time trying to hit the steel gong at 200M with it and it's optic... yet i owned that target with my AR and iron sights.

Tamara
February 7, 2003, 11:07 AM
That couldn't've had anything to do with the fact that one was new to you and in an unfamiliar configuration, to boot, while the other was as comfortable as an old pair of sneakers? :p

Kobun
February 7, 2003, 12:08 PM
I've shot clay pigeons (on the ground) @ 500 yards with my AUG. Used the Meopta 2-8x42 though, but the accuracy is there.
Should be even more precise now that I have the Versapod bipod on it. :)
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 01:06 PM
The AKM is more reliable than virtually any small arm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Deal with it....



Wildalaska, I am dealing with it. In fact that is MY quote. However reliability is not the end all be all of small arms.

Again the UZI is more reliable than the MP5. Is it your contention that based upon reliability alone the UZI is superior?

I think you might possibly have pegged me for a gun snob. I own 5 AKMs as well as a few Steyr AUGs. But I still deal in reality. Each one is just a tool with inherent strength and weaknesses.

Depending upon expected need, I choose the firearms that is MOST ideally suited for the job. There are times when my first pick would be a AKM, times when it will be a AR15 and times when it will be a HK G3. There is even the possibility of a situation so specific that I could pick the AUG but that is remote.

Try and remember there is no IDEAL weapon that is superior to all others in all respects or that would be the only one made. But there are ones that are overall superior to others.

For example in close range (100m) hostile environoments (ie. crap weather, jungle) where the opportunity to maintain and service the weapon will be rare the AKM is ideal. Especially the 7.62x39 which has the power to punch through brush. The only real weakness of the AKM in this respect is how unbelievably hot it gets in a short amount of time. On full auto after 2 mags it is almost too hot to hold. Not good for sustained firefights.

But for situations like open terrain it becomes limited by lack of long range accuracy. This AO is more ideally suited to the AR15. Also the AKM is absolutely that last pick for situations like hostage rescue, etc.

Mike Irwin
February 7, 2003, 02:57 PM
Hum...

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it's really NOT all that special.

I've fired them, and to me they're just another semi-auto/full-auto military-style rifle.

They're reliable and they're odd looking. Other than that... :confused:

As for the UZI being more reliable than the MP-5, not in my experience it's not, nor is the UZI more ergonomic.

I'd take an MP-5 over virtually any other subgun now available.

Wildalaska
February 7, 2003, 03:12 PM
The only real weakness of the AKM in this respect is how unbelievably hot it gets in a short amount of time. On full auto after 2 mags it is almost too hot to hold. Not good for sustained firefights.


Ever fired more that 5 mags out of an AUG one after the other full auto? Try that then tell me about AKMs...

However reliability is not the end all be all of small arms.

O really? I personally think that is the number 1 need of a military weapon..

"Sorry Mr.s Jones that your husbands rifle failed in combat and he was killed, you may have comfort in the fact that he accurately shot two targets first..."

Wildifitdontworkitaint....Alaska

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 03:56 PM
Hum...

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it's really NOT all that special.

I've fired them, and to me they're just another semi-auto/full-auto military-style rifle.

They're reliable and they're odd looking. Other than that...

As for the UZI being more reliable than the MP-5, not in my experience it's not, nor is the UZI more ergonomic.

I'd take an MP-5 over virtually any other subgun now available.

So would I. But the UZI is more reliable than the MP5. I think some of you are confusing "reliable" with "superior."

Submerge both in crude and roll in beach sand. The UZI will run long after the MP5 evertime. But the MP5 remains the superior SMG. And I agree the MP5 is way more ergonomic, by a LONG shot.

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 04:03 PM
Ever fired more that 5 mags out of an AUG one after the other full auto? Try that then tell me about AKMs...

Of course. Or I wouldn't offer a comparisson of the two. After 2 mags on full auto the AKM (and the milled AK47) get hotter and do it faster than the AUG (more correctly the Stg77).

After 5 mags the AKM (and AK47) is hotter than the AUG (Stg77).

Bottom line the AKM gets hotter faster. Even with the internals in the buttstock right under your face a hot AUG is easier to handle than a hot AKM.


O really? I personally think that is the number 1 need of a military weapon..

"Sorry Mr.s Jones that your husbands rifle failed in combat and he was killed, you may have comfort in the fact that he accurately shot two targets first..."

Wildifitdontworkitaint....Alaska


So based upon YOUR statement am I correct in assuming you feel the SKS and AKM are superior to the AR15 or FAL? Is the UZI superior to the MP5?

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 04:07 PM
And to address this specifically ONE MORE TIME.

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it's really NOT all that special.

The title "What Is So Damn Special About The Steyr AUG" is from a series of post. Others include "What Is So Damn Special About the HK Rifle" and "What Is So Damn Special About The Sig550."

It was not to suggest the AUG is the only "special" rifle made.

It was a post intended to explain what the big deal was since the average shooter has little or no experience with some of the more exotic weapons.

Wildalaska
February 7, 2003, 05:02 PM
Bottom line the AKM gets hotter faster. Even with the internals in the buttstock right under your face a hot AUG is easier to handle than a hot AKM.

Sorry I beg to differ...and by the way, increase that number of mags to 20 or so and see what happens...

So based upon YOUR statement am I correct in assuming you feel the SKS and AKM are superior to the AR15 or FAL? Is the UZI superior to the MP5?

Sorry I join the earlier poster and will say that having shot the hell out of both MP5 and UZI, the MP5 is the equal to the UZi in terms of reliablity.

And throwing SKSs and FALs in the mix is not logical as they are different types of rifles. Enfields are more reliable than anything but....

CPS1
February 7, 2003, 05:31 PM
I liked this thread. It was intesting to some new pictures of the AUG instead of the same tired side profile that you find all over the web. Steyr, if you have already done similar posts, could you post the links? Finally, (nomex suit on) it always strikes me as funny that people consider reliability to be of utmost importance when judging thier rifles. For pratical purposes the rifles disscussed on this board are/will be used for either target shooting, hunting, or home defense. Of these uses Home defense is the only activity where reliability is going to be important. However, any battle rifle fielded by any army throughout the entire world (yes even the SA-80) is going to function in any of those situations. Rifles used in miltary situations will sometimes be stressed to and beyond thier design parameters. They will fail. Unless one is extremely negligent with cleaning the same should not occur under civilian use. (For me) It just doesn't make sense to make serious trade offs for reliability within the constraints of civilian usage (ie accuracy). As for the AUG (all fifty rounds of experience) I liked it. Not for the trigger, accuracy, or ergonomics(which were largely just OK), but because it was something different. Variety is the spice of life, and AR/Ak variations kind of get old after a while. It's fun to pick up a Buck rodgers gun and rattle off a few rounds when I get the chance.
-CPS1

Mike Irwin
February 7, 2003, 06:01 PM
"I think some of you are confusing "reliable" with "superior."


Hum....

Nah, I have NO clue as to what constitutes a firearm-related stoppage vs. the entire package's superiority.

I've used and been around more than my fair share of both weapons, and the Uzi doesn't hold a candle to the MP-5 in either reliability or superiority.


"Others include "What Is So Damn Special About the HK Rifle" and "What Is So Damn Special About The Sig550."


I understand that. And as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing really all that special about those two, or the rest, either.

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 06:03 PM
Wildalaska


Sorry I beg to differ...and by the way, increase that number of mags to 20 or so and see what happens...


LOL, are you one of those "AUGs melt" people? I have shot my AUG LMG w/2 AUG tower Beta drums and and put 1,000s pf rounds down it. And it didn't melt. :D

And just so you know my AKM with 75 round drums became too hot to hold LONG before the AUG. If it makes you feel better the AKM didn't melt either. But I have seen one set of AKM furniture actually ignite after heavy continuous full auto.



Sorry I join the earlier poster and will say that having shot the hell out of both MP5 and UZI, the MP5 is the equal to the UZi in terms of reliablity.

And now I see your problem. You celarly are not understanding what I am saying. As CPS1 noted reliability under normal circumstances is difficult, if not impossible, to judge.

That is why I used the beach sand/crude example. It is only under these kinds of extremes that one will exhibit itself as more reliable than the other.


And throwing SKSs and FALs in the mix is not logical as they are different types of rifles. Enfields are more reliable than anything but....

Not anymore different than the AUG vs. the AKM.

The SKS is more reliable than the FAL, just like the AKM is more reliable than the AUG.

The FAL is more accurate and overall superior to the SKS, just like the AUG is more accurate and overall superior to the AKM.

But none of this matters as it is becoming obvious you are not reading or just not understanding what I am telling you.

I will close by saying this once again, IF reliability is the ONLY ISSUE for you then the AKM is YOUR gun. The damn thing will run UNDER MUD. And while I admire that quality I require a little more from a primary small arm unless the specific AO dictates that to be the critical factor.

Kobun
February 7, 2003, 06:06 PM
Wildalaska; not to pick on what you say or anything, but: Ever fired more that 5 mags out of an AUG one after the other full auto? Try that then tell me about AKMs...Sorry I beg to differ...and by the way, increase that number of mags to 20 or so and see what happens...
If you ever have to fire 20+ mags FULL AUTO at a threat... Well, all I say is that
eighter you can't hit squat, or you just have WAY to many enemies! :uhoh:
In any case, I sure wouldn't want to be there... :p

As for those wanting more photos:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1135443
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 06:11 PM
Mike Irwin, not trying to keep smacking this horse. And I will ALWAYS pick the MP5 over the UZI, BUT the UZI will beat the MP5 in extreme reliability tests. It is not my opinion, it is a fact. Perhaps one you are not aware of.

Specifically IMI frequantely demonstrates the Uzi will run after submerssion into crude and beach sand LONG after the MP5 has seized up. While I personally feel this is a unlikely scenario meant to demonstrate the Uzis superiority it is still a test of extreme reliability where the Uzi won.

And the reason is the roller lock bolt head of the MP5 is more vulnerable to stoppages associated with crude and beach sand than the Uzi with it's simple one piece bolt.

Under normal circumstances, and most extreme ones, the MP5 remains 100% reliable and is there fore a superior SMG. Which is more or less the point I was trying to make about the AKM vs. the AUG.

Drjones
February 7, 2003, 06:37 PM
Well Steyr, I for one REALLY appreciate your thread!

Very informative!

All the debate has been educational as well.

I do not know much about rifles, especially since most all the ones you have I cannot own in CA.:cuss: :fire:

FYI, the "What Is So Special About..." is a series of posts I did on another forum. Also did "What Is So Special About The HK MP5", etc.

Most people know these guns are top of the line by reputation, but don't know exactly why.

Could you PLEASE start other threads about the other guns???

I'd LOVE to learn!!!


Thank you!!!
Drjones

Mike Irwin
February 7, 2003, 06:41 PM
Then riddle me this...


Why were we able burn through 20,000 rounds + in every one of the MP-5s without a SINGLE stopage, no cleaning, no maintenance, no nothing, but not a single one of the Uzis would go more than a few hundred rounds before coughing up a lung?

Could a dozen Uzis be that reliably unreliable, and a similar number of MP-5s be that reliabily reliable?

The end result was the Uzis were rejected, the MP-5s are still in service.

I don't care what the factory does with specially prepped guns -- it's the performance of the line item that's important to me.

Chrysler used to use the performance of specially prepped factory cars to sell unmitigaged S*** to the American consumer.

Deadman
February 7, 2003, 06:46 PM
Kobun is that a 40 or 50 round mag in your Mall Ninja Steyr? :p

Handy
February 7, 2003, 07:15 PM
You know, there isn't exactly a clearinghouse for weapon performance stats. Every time someone starts talking about the crummy M16, someone else reminds them that it was the most reliable in recent NATO tests. Then you bring up Vietnam and Afghanistan and the debate rolls on.

As for UZI/MP5 debates, I don't think either of them are as good in all sorts of crud as the Sterling, but I have no data to back that up.

Military rifle reliability is funny. The standard line about AK reliability is taken for granted, but I've heard of them jamming. And a friend in the Danish Army reported incredible levels of reliability with the fairly precise G3. So maybe loose tolerences don't tell the whole story.

I always take individual reports on weapons with a bit o' salt. I've never heard anything that would convince me that an AUG is any less reliable than any of the other 10 or more western gas driven .223s. If there is a downside, it is likely shared by all of those weapons since the critical components are so similar.

AUG, FNC, AR18, M16, Galil, Tavor, G36, AR70, 550, C7, MD-2, K2, AC556, Valmet, Stoner 63 all do the about the same stuff in the same way. They all are expected to have a certain level of accuracy, too. So unless the designer screws up (SA80), they all come out working about the same, their reliability dictated largely by the clearences necessary to acheive the desired accuracy. Almost all are VERY accurate.

Personally, I'm in the delayed blowback club. HK33, Cetme L, FAMAS. These guns are reliable and accurate, despite having received so much less development than the gas guns. Oh well.

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 08:07 PM
Mike, really?

Why were we able burn through 20,000 rounds + in every one of the MP-5s without a SINGLE stopage, no cleaning, no maintenance, no nothing, but not a single one of the Uzis would go more than a few hundred rounds before coughing up a lung?

I've never heard of a Uzi crapping out that early. And like I said, in "real world" applications the MP5 is the hands down winner. If for no other reason than first shot placement.

And for what it is worth, the Uzi vs. MP5 test were done independent of IMI. In virtually every other test the MP5 ran circles around the Uzi.

SteyrAUG
February 7, 2003, 08:21 PM
Could you PLEASE start other threads about the other guns???

Dr. Jones, sure I'd love to argue with Wildalaska about the merits of other firearms.

Of course my FAVORITE gun comparrison was this one:

Why MY SKS Is Better Than YOUR AR-15...

http://www.full-auto.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000184

Kobun
February 7, 2003, 09:35 PM
Deadman,
Its a 42 round mag, that I load to 41 so I can do a tac reload.
The gun is not for mall ninja work (can't belive I used that phrase), but set up for practical shooting.
I'm looking into adjusting the trigger pull, but this requires some modification and custom springs.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

Deadman
February 8, 2003, 06:19 AM
Hehe, sorry Kobun, couldn't resist. :D

Let us know how your trigger adjustment goes, because god knows I'd like to fix some of the triggers in the Australian Army's arsenal...

fallingblock
February 8, 2003, 09:00 AM
some of the other problems could be addressed:D

El Tejon
February 8, 2003, 11:09 AM
What's so special about the Space Ranger Rifle? [El Tejon donning tweed jacket with leather elbow patches and digging through desk for pipe] Scarcity. Scarcity equates to value. Value equates to special.

If one cannot find it because a weapon is scarce, then that weapon becomes "cool", regardless of the merits of the particular piece. If a weapon is cool, then others want it because CDI. CDI then leads to a heavy outbreak of "Iwannacoolgun" virus.

The only known cure is training. However, this is counterproductive as you then blow all your money on training instead of mall ninja toys.:D

Zangetsu
October 9, 2007, 11:47 PM
So I was wondering...how does the AUG do in sandy environments?

R.W.Dale
October 10, 2007, 12:13 AM
DUDE! this thread is like 5 years old. NOT COOL!


http://www.picpop.com/gallery/albums/userpics/1-14-05/old_thread.jpg

MisterPX
October 10, 2007, 03:02 AM
Holy Necropost! I think this one is the second oldest one I've seen.:mad:

Zangetsu
October 10, 2007, 03:13 AM
Well, given how there are at least two US companies cloning AUGs now, I thought it was relevant enough to be resurrected :)

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