Developing this "proper" load


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Katitmail
April 26, 2013, 06:53 PM
I'm also starting reloading. Didn't want to hijack other post. Press is on order, collecting my brass for awhile. Got 1000 124gr bullets, traded another 1000 for 2000 primers :)
Just need powder but I hope it will come in at about same time with my press (have some on backorder).

I want to keep everything simple. I shoot 45ACP, 9mm and 9MAK. 9mm is what I use for IDPA so I ordered press for this caliber.

I read books, forums, etc. I'm mechanical so I don't anticipate any problem with actual loading. My questions is how to get that "proper" round developed and stick to it.

Keeping that in mind I have 8lb Unique on B/O - seems like good all around powder. 124gr for 9mm is seems like what my gun was designed for so I'm going to try to deal with this particular weight.

I want to develop 125000+ power load that works best for my gun. How do I know? I understand that I start low on powder, but how do I speed up process? I was thinking about loading 10 rounds with min weight, bump 0.2gr and do 10 more rounds and so on. Than borrow chrono and check how it's doing? Also probably need to shoot from a rest to judge accuracy.

Goal is to get something I like and crank quantities of it :) How do you develop this load you like with least amount of trips to range?

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bds
April 26, 2013, 07:51 PM
With a given bullet and powder, you can identify the accurate load for your pistol in as little as one range trip.

After you determine the max OAL using the barrel drop test and the working OAL that will reliably feed from the magazine, load 10 rounds of each 0.1 gr powder increments from start to max charge using published load data (if you have more than one load data, use the lowest start/max charges).

On range day, set up your target and pistol rest and first determine the powder charge load that will start to reliably cycle the slide.

Then carefully monitor the accuracy trends of your shot groups and select the most accurate charges to chrono to determine power factor compliance.

I usually conduct 2-3 range trips to verify repeatability of my accurate loads before I deem them "very accurate" loads.

Katitmail
April 26, 2013, 08:06 PM
Thanks bds!

After you determine the max OAL using the barrel drop test and the working OAL that will reliably feed from the magazine,
What is OAL? Dimension? I was just going to load "standard" dimension

On range day, set up your target and pistol rest and first determine the powder charge load that will start to reliably cycle the slide.
Is 10 rounds enough to tell? I'm always shooting factory ammo so I guess I will see myself when slide is sluggish?

Then carefully monitor the accuracy trends of your shot groups and select the most accurate charges to chrono to determine power factor compliance.

Does it mean that accurate charges won't be close to each other in weight?

Also, if I load up to "MAX" - can you tell when shooting that it becomes "too much" for a gun? Or published MAX loads should be safe? Is it possible that I will have to disassemble cartridges?

bds
April 26, 2013, 09:20 PM
What is OAL? Dimension?
OAL is the "overall length" of the cartridge and also called COAL "case/cartridge overall length"

Here's SAAMI definition (http://www.saami.org/Glossary/display.cfm?letter=L) under "length, overall/overall length" - "Ammunition: The greatest dimension of a loaded cartridge, i.e., from face of the head to the tip of the bullet for centerfire or rimfire or to the crimp for shotshells or blanks"


I was just going to load "standard" dimension
You are in luck. If you are loading 9mm 124/125 gr in FMJ or RN plated, 1.125"-1.135" OAL will usually work in most pistols. But if you want optimal accuracy (especially for match shooting), you would want to use the longest OAL that will work for your pistol. Why? Closer the bearing surface of the bullet (part of bullet base that rides the rifling) is to the start of rifling when the primer ignites the powder charge, less high pressure gas will leak around the bullet and build more consistent chamber pressures, which will results in more consistent muzzle velocities and ultimately produce smaller shot groups we call accuracy.


Is 10 rounds enough to tell? I'm always shooting factory ammo so I guess I will see myself when slide is sluggish?
With some bullet/powder combination, start charge won't produce enough force to push the slide all the way back to extract the spent case and/or the spent case will stove pipe. You'll note reliable slide cycling when you have reliable spent case extraction/ejection and feeding/chambering of next round from the magazine. 10 rounds will give you two 5 round shot groups or three 3 round shot groups with a spare.

I usually test my reloads at 7-10-15 yards with reference of 1"-2"-3" shot groups for typical factory semi-auto pistols. For me, very accurate loads will produce around 1" shot groups at 15 yards - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7266869#post7266869



Then carefully monitor the accuracy trends of your shot groups and select the most accurate charges to chrono to determine power factor compliance.
Does it mean that accurate charges won't be close to each other in weight?
IMHO, Slower burn rate than W231/HP-38/Unique powders tend to produce optimal accuracy at high-to-near max load data and faster burn rate powders than W231/HP-38 can start to produce accuracy at mid-to-high range load data. With some powder/charge loads, accuracy trend will continue to improve towards max charge and with some other powder/charge loads, accuracy will plateau at mid-range load data.

For meeting power factor (PF), once you have identified which powder charge starts to produce accuracy, you just need to use the lowest powder charge load that will meet the 125 PF velocity. Many match shooters will add a little more to achieve like 130 PF to account for lower velocities caused by factors such as lower ambient temperature.


Also, if I load up to "MAX" - can you tell when shooting that it becomes "too much" for a gun? Or published MAX loads should be safe? Is it possible that I will have to disassemble cartridges?
This is why my motto is "Accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes." If the particular bullet/powder/charge combination is producing consistent chamber pressures/muzzle velocities, it will produce consistently small shot groups.

As you conduct your powder work up, once you identify accurate shot groups, you can stop the powder work up if you know you met the PF velocity with a chrono. If the chono testing cannot be done at the same range trip, then you can record the accuracy at mid-to-high range load data and stop and later verify the velocity of the loads with the chrono. Usually, it's relatively easy to meet 125 PF (1000 fps with 125 gr bullet) with 124/125 gr bullets. As an example below, W231/HP-38 with 125 gr FMJ bullet will meet 125 PF with the start charge.
125 gr Sierra FMJ W231/HP-38 Start 4.4 gr (1009 fps) 24,600 CUP - Max 4.8 gr (1088 fps) 28,800 CUP

Katitmail
April 26, 2013, 09:28 PM
But if you want optimal accuracy (especially for match shooting), you would want to use the longest OAL that will work for your pistol. Why? Closer the bearing surface of the bullet (part that rides the rifling) is to the start of rifling when the primer ignites the powder charge, less high pressure gas will leak around the bullet and build more consistent chamber pressures, which will results in more consistent muzzle velocities and ultimately, smaller shot groups we call accuracy.

Live and learn! I didn't know that but it makes perfect sense.

What do you think about my choice of Unique? I just wanted to get 1 powder I would use for all my pistols (45ACP, 9mm and 9MAK)

And what do you think about my choice of 124gr bullet? I read somewhere that my HK P7 was designed for 124gr. In addition to accuracy I'm looking at lowest-recoiling round that will make PF. I don't want to wear gun and waste powder just to make bigger "bang" :)

beatledog7
April 26, 2013, 09:30 PM
"Published max" is probably safe but probably not the most accurate. It's quite likely not the same in every manual, or even any two. I've never had a published starting load fail to reliably cycle the slide or be grossly inaccurate in any pistol in any chambering.

For the 9mm rounds I load (for CZ 75s), the best accuracy is at about 85% of "max" with just about every bullet from 115-gr plated to 125-gr lead to 147-gr JHP. Given that a lot of bullets have to be loaded a little short (in OAL terms) for the CZs, that's probably around 90% of the pressure I'd get at "max" powder charge.

My process for 9mm with a new bullet or new powder is to load a mag worth (15-16) at starting charge, a mag at +.2 grains, +.4 grains, and so on up to about 85% of max and test. At the range, I shoot a five-shot group at the lowest charge, then go up an increment and shoot five, etc. by just swapping mags. Lather, rinse, repeat. That way, I can shoot and analyze three groups at each charge, minimizing the chances that a really good group or a really bad group is anomalous. Of course, it takes a well organized set of targets to keep it all straight.

Unless my groups are still improving at 85%, I don't go higher. I've never been able to tell any difference at .1-grain increments.

bds
April 26, 2013, 09:47 PM
< Flame suit on > :D

What do you think about my choice of Unique? I just wanted to get 1 powder I would use for all my pistols (45ACP, 9mm and 9MAK)
While Unique is an "awesome" powder that will just about do anything well, for match loads which often operate at lower velocities, I prefer faster burning powders than W231/HP-38.

For my powder measures (Lee Pro Auto Disk), Unique has metered with .2+ gr charge-to-charge variation while W231/HP-38/Bullseye/Titegroup/Clays/WST metered within .1 gr variation.

But really, Unique is a "great" powder. ;)

My recommendation would be to test different powders and select the powder that produces the smallest shot groups consistently for your pistol/barrel.

ljnowell
April 26, 2013, 10:08 PM
While Unique is an "awesome" powder that will just about do anything well, for match loads which often operate at lower velocities, I prefer faster burning powders than W231/HP-38.

For my powder measures (Lee Pro Auto Disk), Unique has metered with .2+ gr charge-to-charge variation while W231/HP-38/Bullseye/Titegroup/Clays/WST metered within .1 gr variation.

But really, Unique is a "great" powder.

My recommendation would be to test different powders and select the powder that produces the smallest shot groups consistently for your pistol/barrel.
Total agreement here. I would also say that I dont like unique if the chargeweight is less than 7 or so grains. Under that and the powder measures tend to give erratic results. The bigger the charge the more consistent the drop.

I would also say, even though the OP is a beginning reloader, I would load from the absolute bottom of the load data. Say, for example, the data range is 4.2-5.2, I would probably start at 4.5 or so. I have never found those lowest numbers to be the best loads.

Katitmail
April 26, 2013, 11:45 PM
It will be very impractical for me to "try different powders". I don't really know that much about all this stuff to tell. I picked powder by looking at my Lyman reloading manual. Seems like BullsEye and Unique is on a list everywhere and in "bold" on some rounds I might load.

It seems like it takes less BullsEye than Unique, so I picked Unique as "my" powder because it will be easy to see when I monitor for double/no charge.

I'm not sure about measuring - seems like different people have different opinions and different powder measures like different powders? I ordered Dillon if it makes difference.

Powder is on B/O so I can change my mind, but not sure. Here is another question for you guys :)

Since I'm shooting P7 it suffers this "heat" problem. Not a problem for me on matches since it needs about 40 rapid rounds to get hot but anyway. Is there powder or trick that potentially might lower temperature?

Gas get's into cylinder - this is what heats it up but maybe there is faster/slower powder that can make a difference?

Matt Dillon
April 27, 2013, 12:24 AM
Be sure to get a Wilson case gauge on 9mm.

Katitmail
April 27, 2013, 12:28 AM
Be sure to get a Wilson case gauge on 9mm.

I ordered one from Dillon. But it's not not a case gauge, I think it's whole "round" gauge.

1SOW
April 27, 2013, 12:37 AM
For straightwall pistol, your bbl chamber is the most important "case gage".
Every pistol chamber is a "different" case gage.
For example, XDs and CZs have a shorter chamber than other stock autos.

If the cartridge will "drop into" the naked bbl and hit the case mouth with a clink. Then by hand you can spin the cartridge, it'll run the cartridge if it fits in the mags.

bds
April 27, 2013, 01:16 AM
It will be very impractical for me to "try different powders". I don't really know that much about all this stuff to tell. I picked powder by looking at my Lyman reloading manual. Seems like BullsEye and Unique is on a list everywhere and in "bold" on some rounds I might load.

It seems like it takes less BullsEye than Unique, so I picked Unique as "my" powder because it will be easy to see when I monitor for double/no charge.

I'm not sure about measuring - seems like different people have different opinions and different powder measures like different powders? I ordered Dillon if it makes difference.

Powder is on B/O so I can change my mind, but not sure.
You picked a bad time to start reloading as most popular powders are very difficult to locate right now. When I started match shooting, I tested Bullseye, Clays, W231, Universal, HS-6 and WSF for 9mm/45ACP and later tested other powders when I switched my match caliber to 40S&W. It's really too bad that you can't try different powders first. Here's why.

On one hand, there is the aspect of absolute accuracy of a particular powder over another fired slowly from a pistol rest (like bullseye match shooting). On the other hand for action pistol shooting (USPSA/IDPA) where fast double taps are utilized, depending on the pistol/barrel/recoil spring used, different powder/charge loads produced different recoil "pulse" that made shooting variable. With some pistol/powder loads, I found my shooting "rhythm" incompatible with the "tap taps" of double taps. Some other pistol/powder loads produced too much abrupt or recoil pulse that forced me to focus more on recoil recovery than the stage targets.

What I realized was that match shooting and match loads were very personal and different match shooters preferred different recoil characteristics that affected how fast and how well they shot. It would be difficult for me to tell you how a particular powder/charge load will shoot for you and your pistol. The only way you can determine that is to do comparison range tests, preferably using a timed mock match stage.

Personally, between Bullseye and Unique, I would choose Bullseye.


Here is another question for you guys. I'm shooting P7 it suffers this "heat" problem. Not a problem for me on matches since it needs about 40 rapid rounds to get hot but anyway. Is there powder or trick that potentially might lower temperature?

Gas get's into cylinder - this is what heats it up but maybe there is faster/slower powder that can make a difference?
I am not familiar with that pistol used in match shooting application so perhaps someone else can answer. You could consider wearing shooting gloves to help with the heat problem.

As to powder selection for low heat? Don't use Titegroup if heat is your problem. :D

Perhaps you could get some match load ideas from this BE "9mm pet load" thread (you'll note some very different powder/charge loads as I mentioned above and some match shooters change their match loads like changing underwear :eek:) - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89264

noylj
April 27, 2013, 01:33 AM
>OAL is the "overall length" of the cartridge and also called COAL "case/cartridge overall length"

And the industry uses COL. Not OAL and NOT COAL.
OP: you really should be buying and reading some loading manuals right now.

ArchAngelCD
April 27, 2013, 01:39 AM
I want to develop 125000+ power load that works best for my gun. How do I know?
Well, Since you borrowed a Chrono you will have an easy time of it.

Since you are looking for the minor power factor of 125, the formula is:
Bullet weight in grains, times velocity in FPS, divided by 1000.

You will need to push that 124gr bullet to 1009 fps to make minor. Once you achieve that velocity you can try to find the best load for accuracy which might be higher than 1009 or right around that velocity.

The Alliant site is showing a Max charge under a 124gr Gold Dot bullet as 5.8gr of unique. That load is reported to generate 1180 fps from a 4" barrel. Using the 10% rule the starting charge should be 5.2gr Unique. Start there and check the rounds over the Chrono and increase the powder charge as needed. If you're lucky the load that's a little over Minor will also be accurate.

Good luck...

bds
April 27, 2013, 01:52 AM
And the industry uses COL. Not OAL and NOT COAL.
Sorry, I have used OAL most of my reloading years and it kinda stuck (BTW, Lyman #49 uses the term "OAL" and Alliant also uses "OAL" for their load data). I know some reloaders used the term COAL but I could work towards "COL" as used by Hodgdon and Accurate in their load data (still like OAL better). :D

ljnowell
April 27, 2013, 01:58 AM
Sorry, I have used OAL most of my reloading years and it kinda stuck. I know some reloaders used the term COAL but I could work towards "COL" (still like OAL better).



Thats the least of our vocabulary problems in this hobby.

Katitmail
April 27, 2013, 02:24 PM
What I realized was that match shooting and match loads were very personal and different match shooters preferred different recoil characteristics that affected how fast and how well they shot. It would be difficult for me to tell you how a particular powder/charge load will shoot for you and your pistol. The only way you can determine that is to do comparison range tests, preferably using a timed mock match stage.
Honestly I'm not on a level where I can tell a difference :) I guess with a time if I experiment I will get it, but right now it's not an option.


Personally, between Bullseye and Unique, I would choose Bullseye.
Will try BullsEye than. What is other powders I should look at for pistol cartridges? I know only those two by name and there is bunch of other by numbers that I have no idea about..
At least it seems that everybody (almost) on BE forum agreed on 124gr bullet

bds
April 27, 2013, 02:48 PM
Yes. For me, the lighter 115 gr FMJ/plated bullet needs to be pushed at high-to-near max load data to produce optimal accuracy and to reliably cycle the slides on stiffer recoil springed semi-autos. The heavier 124/125 gr FMJ/plated bullets can produce accuracy at mid-to-high range load data that will meet 9mm minor 125 PF and still reliably cycle the slides on stiffer recoil springed semi-autos.

What is other powders I should look at for pistol cartridges?
To start out for 9mm, I would suggest Winchester 231 or Hodgdon HP-38 (same exact powder) as a good lower pressure target load powder but like so many other popular powders, it is very difficult to obtain right now. As expressed in the BE "Pet 9mm loads (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89264)" thread, there are many popular powders for 9mm minor 125 PF loads: Hodgdon Clays, Hodgdon Titegroup, Accurate Solo 1000, Vihtavuori N320, Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38, Hodgdon Universal, Winchester WSF.

bds
April 27, 2013, 04:40 PM
9mm is what I use for IDPA so I ordered press for this caliber.

I read books, forums, etc. I'm mechanical so I don't anticipate any problem with actual loading. My questions is how to get that "proper" round developed and stick to it.
I also started out reloading for 9mm and 45ACP. Like you, I also read reloading books and talked to other match shooters about what the "best" match load was. And while they all had their favorite match loads, they suggested I test different powders and charge loads in my match pistols to select the "right" load for me.

Fortunately for me, my local USPSA match shooters were very approachable and allowed me to try their match loads with their various match pistols. Some of them even admitted that they selected their match loads not necessarily based on "absolute" accuracy but by lowest cost to reload (unlike bullseye match shooting where utmost accuracy is required, action pistol match shooting like USPSA/IDPA does not require that level of accuracy).

My initial powder selection was based on the other match shooters' comments and I tested Bullseye, Clays, Titegroup, W231/HP-38, Universal, HS-6 and WSF. I ended up choosing W231. While it did not produce as accurate loads as other powders, it was plenty accurate enough and I liked the recoil "pulse" it produced for double taps. I have tested and used other powders for match shooting and you may transition through several different powders and bullets before you settle with a load you like.

ArchAngelCD
April 28, 2013, 02:21 AM
>OAL is the "overall length" of the cartridge and also called COAL "case/cartridge overall length"

And the industry uses COL. Not OAL and NOT COAL.
OP: you really should be buying and reading some loading manuals right now.
If people can say "LONG" Colt I can say OAL!!! :neener:

Katitmail
May 18, 2013, 06:33 PM
I would suggest Winchester 231 or Hodgdon HP-38 (same exact powder) as a good lower pressure target load powder but like so many other popular powders, it is very difficult to obtain right now. As expressed in the BE "Pet 9mm loads" thread, there are many popular powders for 9mm minor 125 PF loads: Hodgdon Clays, Hodgdon Titegroup, Accurate Solo 1000, Vihtavuori N320, Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38, Hodgdon Universal, Winchester WSF.

I was today at gun store and they didn't have any of the powders mentioned. I got can of IMR PB - they suggested for 9mm. Any info on this powder?

noylj
May 19, 2013, 11:39 AM
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Note P.F. COL
L-CN 125 PB 2.9 908 Start 114 1.125
L-RN 121 PB 3.2 872 Start 106
Magma L-RN 126 PB 3.4 887 V. Acc. 112 1.110
L-RN 121 PB 3.4 915 Start 111
LCN 125 PB 3.4 1004 Max 126 1.125
Magma L-RN 126 PB 3.4 887 Acc 112 1.110
Hdy swaged Lead 124 PB 3.5 847 V. Acc. 105 1.130
Hdy swaged Lead 124 PB 3.5 847 V. Acc. 105 1.130
L-RN 121 PB 3.5 940 Start 114
Hdy swaged Lead 124 PB 4.0 948 V. Acc. 118 1.130
Hdy swaged Lead 124 PB 4.0 948 Acc 118 1.130
SAECO L-SWC 125 PB 4.0 970 Acc 121 1.090
SAECO L-SWC 125 PB 4.0 970 Acc 121 1.090
Alberts swaged Lead 125 PB 4.0 944 118 1.110
Alberts swaged Lead 125 PB 4.0 944 118 1.110
Magma L-RN 126 PB 4.0 1017 128 1.110
Magma L-RN 126 PB 4.0 1017 128 1.110
L-RN 121 PB 4.1 1106 Max 134
L-CFP 121 PB 4.3 1095 Max 132
L-RN 121 PB 4.3 1090 Max 132
Sie FMJ 125 PB 3.2 887 Start 111 1.090
Sie FMJ 125 PB 3.6 974 Max 122 1.090
Spr SP 125 PB 4.2 997 Start 125
J-all 124 PB 4.4 945 Start 117
Spr SP 125 PB 4.7 1081 135
J-all, Rem MC 124 PB 4.9 1050 Max 130 1.135
Spr SP 125 PB 5.2 1135 Max 142

Katitmail
May 19, 2013, 12:00 PM
I'm sorry, not sure how to read this data :( I have plated 124 bullets from RMR. What weight I should use for start?

1SOW
May 19, 2013, 11:18 PM
With RMR plated bullets, I would load using 124/125gr RN (round nose) FMJ data starting low and working up to mid-range loads.

Load data will provide the OAL/COL/COAL (:D) "THEY" used to test "Their" loads. That oal is the "MINIMUM" oal , LONGER IS OKAY>

It will also supply a MAX amount of powder to be used and a "starting load" / minimum amount of powder where you start at. Then add .1/.2 grains of powder at a time in a few cartridges (maybe just 5 each) and the .1/.2 grs more, etc until you get to the mid-range of the powder loads they give.

Example for Win 231 and a 125gr FMJ bullet from the HOGDON loading site on-line:

125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" (4.4 1009 ) 24,600 CUP ( 4.8 1088) 28,800 CUP
To get 129-130PF APPROX. 4.6 grs ()MID-RANGE) should get approximately what you're looking for.: 1.048 FPS

Unique is not a great powder for minor PF. You didn't say what powder system you are getting with what press, but unique is large flake powder that doesn't drop consistent light loads from 'some' powder systems, like the Lee Disc system and others.
A little faster ball powder or small rod powder is consistent in all powder systems.
It will also burn cleaner with light loads.

As bds recommended, Win 231/Hp-38 will work, but even that will be a little sooty below 130PF. ; but it meters well and it's hard to make big mistakes with---like a double charge. It will take over a half case of powder to get your bullet speed right, so you can't accidentally drop "TWO" full charges in one 9mm case.

Read those loading manuals. It's not rocket science, but like anything, there is a learning curve. Keep asking questions.

Bruno2
May 19, 2013, 11:48 PM
Unique is good for a starter, Alliant powders are double based powders and they are temperature tolerant. They don't burn as clean as single base do , but safe for newbs IMO. Hogdon has been my favorite over the yrs and they have their "extreme powders" which are temperature safe also. I would say call the manufacturer and get their opinion about a powder for your purposes, but they usually try to push their latest and greatest product onto you.

noylj
May 20, 2013, 12:33 AM
All plated bullets (except for Gold Dots and a couple of other major manufacturer's "bonded" bullets) should be loaded like lead bullets, and may be loaded up to mid-range jacketed bullet data.
To me, this pretty much means to stick with lead data as most jacketed mid-range data I have seen is within the lead bullet data.
Start with the lowest starting load you can find.
The data I sent may be "scrunched up" but shouldn't be very hard to read.
I wish we could post Excel files...

Katitmail
May 20, 2013, 12:56 AM
Hard to read but fow can I tell which bullet is lead in your list? Rmr suggests to use fmj load data for their bullets

noylj
May 21, 2013, 12:38 PM
The first are all lead/plated and then towards the end I have jacketed (FMJ/JHP).

mstreddy
May 21, 2013, 09:33 PM
OP, I'd suggest you weigh a sampling of those RMR bullets to ensure they are "ALL" 124 grains. Not trying to badmouth RMR, I've had excellent results buying from them, but one batch of pulled 9mm bullets I got from them was a mixed bag (literally) of 115s and 124s with three or four 147s thrown in for good measure.
I had to weigh all of them to sort them into their respective batches.

Katitmail
May 21, 2013, 09:59 PM
Well. Thats going to be really bad... They suppose to differ in sizes. If I just line them up vertically I should see if there any differences.

I heard they might differ but couple grains here and there, not like 115-124-147 in one batch.

mstreddy
May 21, 2013, 10:31 PM
You can tell a slight difference when you stand them next to each other, but with my tired eyes, it was easier (and more precise) to weigh them. The 147s are easy to tell - -they are big mothers.
What I did is weigh 3 at a time and that way it was easy to see if there was a mismatch -- 3 * 115 is 345 grains, 3 * 124 is 372, so if 3 gives me anything else, then one of these is not like the others... easy to remove one then see if the 2 left match -- does this make sense? It did when I was doing it. I can't type it out clear though.
There is a slight variation in the bullets so a 124 could be between 123.x and 125.x, but 115 (114.x) is a different bullet altogether. And never mind seating issues when you have your dies set.

Katitmail
May 21, 2013, 10:42 PM
Well. It's counter-productive to do this. I will check couple random groups but if I find it to be true - it will be my last order from them.. I don't have time to sort bullets :(

mstreddy
May 21, 2013, 11:04 PM
Don't write them off yet. Everything else I've gotten from them has been spot on, but that one batch was fubared. A little bit of time over an evening or three and they all got sorted out.
Jake at RMR has done well by most of us on this forum. I didn't even contact him to complain, as it was an easy fix for me.
As a general rule, I always spot check the weights of bullets before I load them, particularly a new batch from whatever supplier. I mic them too. You never know what's in the box.

Katitmail
May 22, 2013, 12:16 PM
Got 1lb of Unique and 1lb of BullsEye at LGS. Now I have something to experiment with :)

Cosmoline
May 22, 2013, 12:37 PM
Make sure you have something to write down results, and make sure you keep clear track of your loads. This sounds silly but trust me if you do a lot of handloading you'll forget what X load was. I use little baggies for tester loads, with the basic data on a piece of paper in the bag. Then I take the rounds out with the paper and make notations of results in a write-in-the-rain pad. You must keep track of what firearm your using, and the basic factors of bullet type, weight, distance to target, and of course precise powder charge. OAL is also very important for semis. The more precise variables such as primer brand, climate conditions, specific gravity of the shooting bench, etc. are more for precision rifles than handguns. With short guns you'll see VERY quickly which loads are tight and which are pie plate. I usually keep the target at about 10-15 yards for testing since that way I can distinguish good from excellent groups. My minimum test batch is six rounds, to allow for fliers and such. But if you're clamping the handgun down you can do it with half that many. The fewer variables *you* introduce, the faster you can get your results.

Also, with time you'll start to notice patterns with what different firearms tend to "like." I would NOT suggest trying one powder with .2 increments for the first go-round. Instead try multiple powders and bullets (if possible these days) using mid-range loads. Some will clearly be crud, others will look promising. Do your .2 increment testing with the promising ones in the second session. By the end of that session you'll have some solid loads to either mass produce or play around with further. And once you know the general preferences of that handgun, further testing gets easier. For example I've been working up loads for a Redhawk .357 this month. I know now that it does very well with 158 grain hardcast slugs over stout loads of 2400 or H110. I have just run out of one type of 158 grain hardcast and will switch to another, but I'll start my testing on that new bulk bullet with the same data and it should be about the same since the diameter and hardness are very close.

Once you have your selected load combo for a particular firearm, it's a good idea to make special note of it. I try to keep mine listed in a "paradigm" load book kept with the bench. This again may seem silly but sometimes years go by between load sessions with particular firearms, and most of us will tend to forget. With some double rifles the paradigm load was actually printed on the barrel.

Katitmail
May 22, 2013, 01:24 PM
I was thinking about doing batch in 0.1 increments(3 batches of 5) starting +0.2 from minimum for each powder.

Yes, I will write down all info. Most likely I will set OAL to "standard" and then try to increase it to see if it goes into my gun.

jim243
May 22, 2013, 01:52 PM
If I understand you correctly, this load will be for IDPA. To calculate the Min power factor you need to multiply the weight (124 grains) times the FPS (1008 fps). Most reloading manuals will state the FPS for each load. In checking the Lyman 49th manual for that weight bullet, you will be pretty much be at the max for any powder you use. Now these listings are for jacketed bullets. Plated bullets (depending on how much platting is used) will be close to the jacketed bullet information. To be safe start at 0.5 gains under Max and work your way up from there checking for pressure signs.

Most clubs DO NOT check for power factors in IDPA matches unless you are shooting in State or National Championships. (then they do check)

As a rule of thumb, faster powders produce lower pressures than slower powders. Win 231 will produce less pressure per load than say Power Pistol, but that means slower speeds. I only use ball powder and never use flake powder, ball powder just meters better with my equipment.

For rifle you need to dial in your loads, for pistol it is less important because the distances you will be shooting is less. It is also harder since your sight radius will be considerably shorter on a pistol. I would try on 3 different powder levels instead of doing a ladder test to find a good load.

Good luck and safe shooting .
Jim

Katitmail
May 22, 2013, 02:06 PM
Jim, I'm waiting for Dillon 650, so this is what my powder measure will be. You correct it's IDPA and I need 125000 with 124gr bullet.

I wonder if factory rounds make PF? So, factory loads pretty much at max?

Mono
May 26, 2013, 09:05 AM
Good day Gents

Its been a while since I posted, so please be gentle. As some of you may know, I have had some issues with my Marlin XL7 30-06. But even with all crap I have had, I did not quit trying to sort it out.She is my first new rifle. So over the years i have tried and tried, tested and tested. Approximately 2000 rounds have gone through this baby after they properly fixed the extractor, ( found out this week that i was not the only who had the extractor break.)
Unfortunately down here in Namibia( north of South Africa, south of Angola and west of Zimbabwe for those that do not know), we don't have a lot of options when it comes to gunpowder and primers. The variety of the latter only recently increased. Bullets I have tried are 150gr PMP, 180gr PMP( if you ever find some one who tells you these are great, slap him HARD!!. PMP's nickname directly translated is FART ME FLAT.). I did Sierra Gameking and Prohunter with average results, which was a 1" group at 100m( +- 140yards), which most people will say is good.
Then switched over to Nosler Ballistic tips 168gr, which during load development would constanly give me .75" groups at the same distance.
My basic recipe was Highlander Bass( Privi Partizan), CCI 250 magnum primers, and a S365 Powder which is supposedly equivalent to IMR4350. This however was not enough for me, because a .75 group on 100m turns into a 2'' group at 200m and so on and so forth. So the tests continued.
Changed powder to S355 which is supposed to be equivalant to IMR4320. Did not change my brass, or primers( primers due to availabilty issues and brass, because I have a lot of it) and the result was outstanding. If i could sort out the one bloody flier i have every time, then it will be a constant grouping of .25 and less. The usual result is two shot in one,where you can barely see the outline of the second hole and then there is is the one that is 1 to 3 cm off. If the flier went to the same side every time, it would likely mean that I pulled the shot, but it goes left, right, up and down. Also, there is no pattern. It would be 1,2, flyer, then say flier,1,2 or 1,flier,2.
The only item in my recipe that has stayed the same over the past two years, is the brass, which I will be tossing away TODAY. This due to 15 shots loaded, and 5 not being able to fit the rifle becuase of the should being bent.
I fully understand that a .25 group at 100m ( and .25 at 150m which i shot today) is good, but i need to eliminate the flier.
Could it be the Brass that is bent or old. The reason i want to sort this out is because the shots we take are between 50m and 600m, thus if you take a 600meter shot and its a flier, you have a long way to walk if you would the animal.
Help, advise and Critism will be highly appreciated.

rgds
The Neck

Hondo 60
May 26, 2013, 09:12 AM
bds - no flame suit needed

While Unique is an "awesome" powder that will just about do anything well, for match loads which often operate at lower velocities, I prefer faster burning powders

I couldn't agree more.

In my powder measures Unique tends to wander too much for me.
(Lee Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure, RCBS Uniflow & Dillon Powder Measure)


I have about a 1/2 pound left & won't buy it again.
I've been spoiled rotten with Tite Group, Accurate #5 & Clay's Universal.
Those 3 handgun powders are ALWAYS +-.01gr.

I don't reload 9mak, so I have no experience with that one.
But for 9mm & 45acp, Tite Group & Accurate 2 or Accurate 5 work well.

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