Extra mags and reloads for CCW


April 27, 2013, 01:01 AM
First a disclaimer, I am not against carrying extra mags for all the logical reasons like malfunctions. I have not carried them in the past, but I am considering it. One thing concerns me though. We have all seen the warning about an overzealous prosecutor going after someone carrying reloads because he can present the case of a "killer making his own high powered ammo"

Could the same not be said for carrying spare mags. Imagine you have your glock 19 with 15 rounds and an extra 17 round mad in your pocket. You are involved in the common one to two shot SD scenario. The question then comes up on why you felt the need to carry 30+ rounds (or heaven forbid 45+).

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury. At the time of the killing Mr. Smith had over 30 rounds on his person. Let me ask you does this sound like someone wanting to protect themselves or someone looking for a gun fight?"

And mr. fair and balanced news person has the headline "ammo laden man shoots young citizen and claims stand your ground defense"

Am I over thinking this?

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April 27, 2013, 08:39 AM
My wife and I have wonderd what would happen if we ever got stopped going to, or coming from, our gun club. The least we've ever gone with was one gun each, but we frequently take two hand guns each and at least one rifle. Since my wife is getting ready for a shotgun quals course she's signed up for we now take a shotgun.

We have at least five fully loaded magazines per gun (coming and going) for those that use magazines and the ammunition bag could be used for weight training.

But, we live in a gun friendly state, in a gun friendly town and in a very gun friendly county. We know many of the county officers (no city police force) and they know us. In fact, we took a great course sponsored by our county so many of them know us as shooters. And since we've had a few of them to our property on two occasions, they know of from that angle too.

Like I said, we have wondered out loud about it a time or two, but that was it. We just do what's right, legal and moral and move on.

April 27, 2013, 08:51 AM
Am I over thinking this?

IMO, yes ... but IMO many people posting here over think (and post about) many such things. ;)

April 27, 2013, 08:55 AM
I think a good lawyer could keep a jury from ever hearing that argument.

April 27, 2013, 09:16 AM
I think a good lawyer could keep a jury from ever hearing that argument.

Exactly. I'd be more worried about this in the more than likely civil case that will be brought against you after the criminal case.

April 27, 2013, 09:23 AM
Exactly. I'd be more worried about this in the more than likely civil case that will be brought against you after the criminal case.
Under the provisions of the "Castle Clause" in my state, if it's ruled you acted within the law, civil cases are specifically disallowed.

April 27, 2013, 09:55 AM
Thanks guys. So would you say the same about carrying reloads/handloads? Couldn't a good lawyer get that argument from ever being heard? It seems to be common knowledge to not carry reloaded ammo but I honestly can't see the difference

April 27, 2013, 06:03 PM
If you get to the point of motions in a court, something is very wrong. Read your statutes, act accordingly.

April 27, 2013, 06:54 PM
"Imagine you have your g....." Stop, Stop! I was eating.

Have you selected an attorney to represent you when the need arises? In my humble opinion, interviewing defense attorneys while being held in a detention facility constitutes poor planning on your part. If you do have a defense attorney selected and have his home and/or cell number programed into your cell phone and carry her business card in your wallet and your wife/girlfriend/best friend has those same numbers in their possession, then ask your attorney. I have proven that the fastest way to get your attorney upset is to not listen to their advice. Their answer to such a question may be a deciding factor as to whether they become "your attorney" for such a scenario. If they can't articulate why you carry a spare magazine then they probably aren't the right pick in such a scenario.

With that said, what's wrong with simply carrying an exact spare of the primary magazine? Seems easier to explain that than uping the ante.

April 27, 2013, 07:28 PM
The fact that you are even carrying a firearm..... could be attempted to be twisted against you in a court.

That's my thinking on the matter.

In other words, If you are going to carry = then carry a good firearm, and plenty of ammo.

Generally, the argument has also been made: How much ammo do the local police carry? (certainly more than 1 mag - So why shouldn't you?).

April 28, 2013, 10:46 AM
You could easily say that you don't trust the mechanical workings of a magazine. It would be entirely reasonable for you to carry a backup incase your primary magazine fails. You don't carry a spare mag with the intention to shoot lots of people.

April 28, 2013, 11:40 AM
Mas ayoob knows a lot more about this than I do, he's been a expert witness in court. You should buy his books, they discuss topics like this.

April 28, 2013, 03:23 PM
Possible? I suppose. I really can't imagine this making a dent in any defense.

April 28, 2013, 03:36 PM
My own thinking about spare mags is if I'm carrying a hi-cap (over 10 rounds) CCW, I don't carry a spare in town. In the backcountry, I often do.

But when I carry one of my smaller CCW's with 5-6 round capacity, I *usually* carry one spare mag or speedloader in the case of my .38 442. While I would never suggest someone not do something out of their comfort level, let's be honest here, the likelihood of EVER needing to use your CCW on the streets in what would be a justifiable shooting (vs. presenting to potentially stop a threat) is incredibly remote, especially for those of us who don't live in high crime or visit high crime areas.

I live in a smaller town of a rural western state and the odds of being attacked on the street are so remote, I'm not even sure of any crimes of that nature here in the last decade.

But the idea you're going to be in a prolonged gunfight as a civilian, well, do the research. If I lived in an area where I thought it could happen, I'd be carrying something like a Glock 19 or 17 (or whatever caliber you prefer) and a full, maybe extended mag and no spare. For my Kahr PM9 and Ruger LCP each holding 6+1, a spare makes more sense when I'm traveling to a larger city in another state that honors my CCW.

I can tell you as a former LEO and someone who still works with a LE agency in a non-enforcement capacity, if you ever get involved with a shooting, no matter what, your life will be turned upside down and forever changed.

A CCW is a great thing and I almost always carry something but it is absolutely the last thing I ever want to be involved in having to use to try to save myself or family. As a LEO I was involved in a shooting and it was a nightmare even though I was an authorized, sworn member of my department. I think things would be even more difficult for a civilian.

Just some thoughts from my own perspective.

April 30, 2013, 08:20 AM
IMO (FWIW), it is either a "good shoot" (legal) or it isn't , if it is not you won't have to worry about how many rounds you had or even if they were reloads, -

IF it is a good shoot, you won't have anything to be concerned about (shouldn't at least). Know your state's laws, obey them always, prosecutors don't try cases very often when no laws have been broken ;)

I have heard about using hollow points could be trouble (they cause more damage than FMJ after all) or "carrying certain names" (Judge, combat) etc.etc. there are many "what if" conditions we could drive ourselves crazy with, I prefer instead to not break any laws in the first place- IMO the best method is to stay out of jail in the first place. Guns ARE dangerous weapons, that is a fact that cannot be dismissed, we carry them to defend ourselves (within our rights BTW) and possibly others IF forced to do so.

April 30, 2013, 08:55 AM
1) If you're in court, it WASN'T a "good shoot" ... whatever that is supposed to be.

2) If you're in court, anything and everything COULD be used to try and establish a negative impression of you in the minds of the jury. And those efforts can be quite successful. (Dr. Meyer, member GEM, has done a lot of work on that subject. You may want to search for his posts and read his findings.)

3) You need a good defense attorney.

4) There are plenty of really sound arguments for most of our choices of gear and you'd need to be a lot more "out there" than carrying a reload or two before I'd worry about a jury being swayed by equipment choices. A Draco AK pistol and 120 rounds under your trench coat? Yeah, that's going to seem a bit odd, maybe unsettling, to a jury. An extra mag to go with your carry gun? Hollowpoints? Reloads? That's no stranger than carrying a gun in the first place.

5) (Side topic: The "don't carry reloads" advice isn't due to the jury thinking you're a gun nut, but has to do with some poorly understood evidentiary rules. We have a MEGA thread on that topic here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=634817)

Shawn Dodson
April 30, 2013, 12:20 PM
In 2011, 29% of lethal encounters involving NYC police officers required more than 10 shots to stop the danger. In 2010, 21% of encounters required more than 10 shots.

"By arbitrarily restricting magazine capacity for civilians to 7 or 10 rounds, the most current NYPD SOP-9 data strongly suggests that in 1/4 to 1/3 of incidents civilians will likely run out of ammunition before the violent attacker has been stopped..."

See - http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1590614&postcount=1

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