Citadel Debuts 9mm M1 Carbine Clone


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CmdrSlander
April 27, 2013, 09:25 PM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Citadel-M1-Carbine.jpg
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/04/25/citadel-m1-carbine-9mm/

They say it will arrive late this year.

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mf-dif
April 27, 2013, 10:05 PM
That is pretty cool.

bikerdoc
April 27, 2013, 10:12 PM
I will be all over it. I have the Ruger PC 9 carbine and an M1. This would be the best of both worlds.

C-grunt
April 27, 2013, 10:23 PM
If the 9mm version is any good AND $349 they will sell a whole bunch of these things. But from reading the article I think the 9mm version might be more expensive.

mljdeckard
April 27, 2013, 10:34 PM
My first reaction is; "I have this corvette, but I think it has too much horsepower. I think I'll take it to a mechanic and have him turn half the cylinders off."

But then I see the possible price range and I start to scratch my head a little. My wife would love a 9mm carbine to use with her XD-9. (My Inland M-1 is her primary, under the bed.) I usually steer people away from PCCs, but that price might make it work. (Especially if I find a used one for even less.)

Float Pilot
April 27, 2013, 10:41 PM
I wonder how a 357 Sig would do from a 16 inch barrel ?

Jackal
April 27, 2013, 10:47 PM
I would guess a MSRP price of $699 and a street price of around $550. Considering Ruger PC-9's are going for about $800 in good shape, I think these will sell well, so long as quality is good.... Citadel has not had a good rep so far with the .22's....

Tommygunn
April 28, 2013, 12:14 AM
Cool! I just recently bought a Citadel M-1 22, the 22 caliber version, with a synthetic stock. It's a pretty nice gun, replicating the WW2 version pretty closely given that it had to be altered to a blowback design. I have a original WW2 Inland carbine...ammo for it is now expensive. I think the .22 will be great; ESPECIALLY once this hoarding craze ends and stores get a chance to stock up again! ! ! ! ! !
A 9mm. version ought to be a real good seller for those who want the carbine but want an affordable (?!) more common caliber.

TCB in TN
April 28, 2013, 01:31 AM
Might be interested in one around the 450 mark myself. A 9mm carbine is fun to shoot.

Devonai
April 28, 2013, 01:43 AM
I think this effort would have been better spent on an M1 Carbine in .45 ACP, perfecting the original intent of the somewhat fragile Marlin Camp Carbine .45.

I agree with mljdeckard, the .30 Carbine is hardly a rare caliber and I see little advantage to the same weapon in 9x19mm. As others have stated the actual LGS price may be a significant factor, but if it uses proprietary magazines, then how much of an advantage would it really have over the millions of .30 M1 or PC-9 mags already in circulation?

I am not a purist by any stretch of the imagination, and I would never malign anyone who purchases one, but I just don't see any clear advantage here.

Hacker15E
April 28, 2013, 09:36 AM
The reviews of the .22 version aren't that great, unfortunately. I like the idea of a 9mm one, though -- it would certainly make shooting it much cheaper.

If it were as close to a USGI clone as possible, I'd think it would be a real hit. In fact, given how close the 9x19 and .30 carbine cartridges are in diameter/radius, I'd think it would not be all that tough to have a different bolt, different barrel, and different magazine, and keep most of the rest the same.

Not sure how the short-stroke gas piston would work with a much smaller cartridge.

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 09:45 AM
Not sure how the short-stroke gas piston would work with a much smaller cartridge.

A pistol caliber carbine will be blowback operated. No need or benefit to the added expense and weight of gas operation.

Carl N. Brown
April 28, 2013, 10:08 AM
I have an IBM M1 Carbine (1943) in 30 carbine and no 9mm handguns, so have no need for a 9mm replica.

Someone already familiar with the Carbine and already owning a 9mm pistol would have incentive to want a M1 in 9mm. There is a tradition in America of pairing a pistol with a carbine both using the same ammo.

A pistol caliber carbine will be blowback operated. No need or benefit to the added expense and weight of gas operation.

Actually, a gas operated action would be lighter: a blowback operated 9mm requires a heavy bolt and strong springs--think Sten or HiPoint--to properly operate with a high pressure cartridge. The Dominican blowback operated San Cristobal .30 carbine submachine gun had a bolt that weighted about 2 or 3 pounds.

kBob
April 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
Back in the 1980's Iver & Johnson made a 9x19mm M-1. They did not sell well and did use the gas tappet system. They also used Browning High power Magazines that had been modified by having the mag retaining tits found on M-1 Carbine magazines and a trigger housing with a magazine port made to accept the same.

I think what really killed it was that folks thought they were going to have a magazine interchangeable with their Hi-power and these were not. Like Hi Point's .45acp magazines they were not truly interchangeable. When I handled one that was in fact the killer for me as in a phone conversation with IJ while I was a gun rag writer they had mentioned the hi-power magazine and I had gotten all excited so when I finally handled one I was let down considerably.

As they were about the same price as their .30 carbine and the magazines did not interchange I failed to see the point. Personally I would like to have had one of their plastic pistol grip modeled stocks with some system like the Keltec of being able to take different pistol magazines. Honestly at the time I would rather have had the ability to interchange magazines even with a P-38 with its single stack than to have a dedicated carbine magazine in the same old caliber.

The ONLY advantages I saw of the 9x19 IJ was ammunition availability and cost.

As to blow back operation, I suspect the operating rod and bolt of an M-1 carbine weigh more than say the bolt of a Highpoint and certainly the op rod's cupped end that slides over the gas tappet could be beefed up on a blow back design.

-kBob

whatever
April 28, 2013, 11:54 AM
Crap...I'm going to need a bigger safe.

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 12:08 PM
Actually, a gas operated action would be lighter: a blowback operated 9mm requires a heavy bolt and strong springs.

You don't believe that the weight of the blowback springs/bolt for a low power cartridge like a 9mm is offset by the weight of the gas block, piston, operating rod, locking lugs and locking mechanism it would take to use a gas-operated action?

No question if you're talking a high-power rifle round. But there's a good reason that there's no lightweight, gas-operated 9mm pistols. Same thing would apply to a 9mm carbine.

There's an engineering reason that the AR 9mm carbines, High Point 9mm carbines, Kel-tec 9mm carbines, Beretta 9mm carbines, etc, are all blow-back. It's not because they're trying to make them heavier, it's because that gas operation with a low-power cartridge just adds weight and complexity.

C0untZer0
April 28, 2013, 12:15 PM
I kick myself in the head for not getting the Ruger PC-9, but I'm not going to be rushing out to get one of these when they come out.

The .22 version has plastic rear and front sights, trigger guard, trigger, and barrel band.

I am saving up for a Tavor, and I am thinking I'd rather spend my money on the 9mm conversion kit for it than get a Chiappa replica with that much plastic on it.

But who knows... if it turns out to be a fine shooter, I'd probably spring for it.

Janos Dracwlya
April 28, 2013, 12:53 PM
Having been a fan of the M-1 Carbine since I was a child, I'll be keeping a close eye on this. I'd love an original - and I will probably get one eventually - but I already have too many calibers for which I should be reloading.

flipajig
April 28, 2013, 01:26 PM
I have both a M1 and a Ruger PC9 and pistols for both a pair of Ruger P95 9mm and a Blackhawk in 30 carbine.
I wanted a Pistol and Carbine combo in the same Caliber. We used to live in Texas and just moved back to Idaho I was shooting IDPA and for me to continue doing so means I have to drive about 200 miles to shoot a match so I shoot the Blackhawk more than the others becouse scrounging brass in the grass is not much fun. So I keep them for home defence but in backwater Idaho in a Town of a population of about 200 where everybody knows everybody chances of anything hapining are slim to none unless all Hell breaks loose.
Flip.

kBob
April 28, 2013, 01:35 PM
This is al nice but has anyone seen anything on the new SiG carbine? Suppossedly convertible 9x19/.357 SiG/ .40 S&W and MP 5-ish with AR controls.

Anyone?

-kBob

mljdeckard
April 28, 2013, 03:50 PM
Ok. Why not make one in 10mm?

CmdrSlander
April 28, 2013, 04:48 PM
Ok. Why not make one in 10mm?
Probably too stout for blowback. Unless it was a fancy HK style Roller Delayed blowback.

kBob
April 28, 2013, 05:36 PM
I seem to recall a guy named something like LePage was making/ converting M-1 carbines in Magnum pistol cartridges. All the way up to .454 in fact.

These were gas operated like a normal M-1 Carbine.

-kBob

Gtscotty
April 28, 2013, 07:36 PM
I believe the new Sig MPX has a short stroke gas piston action. Gas pistons aren't as popular in pistol caliber carbines, but there are some out there.

I had a camp carbine in 9mm once and sold it after a couple of trips to the range. It was cool, but, at the range it didn't do anything a .22 rifle couldn't do, and for a house or woods carbine, I would rather have a more powerful round. Now an M-1 carbine in .357 mag, or especially .44 mag would be an interesting little beast.

DNS
April 28, 2013, 09:26 PM
You could take a lot of Texas hogs down in brush country with one of those.

Fishbed77
April 29, 2013, 08:30 PM
If it's priced well and takes Glock mags, it's as good as printing money.

If it takes something silly like 10-round proprietary mags, I'm not so sure. That's what they look like in the photo.

subdude
April 29, 2013, 08:40 PM
I have a '43 National Postal Meter, and love it.

I also have one of the Chiappa .22 versions. Actually, it's my second one. My first was one of the VERY early ones, and had the feed ramp issue discussed to death all over the web.

Chiappa replaced it with a correct one, and I love it. An absolute blast to shoot, way cheaper than my NPM. Yes, the sights are plastic, but I've had no issues with them (or anything else) at all.

Honestly, if (when) they do release a 9mm version, it will be way up on my hit list.

Sam Cade
April 29, 2013, 09:47 PM
I seem to recall a guy named something like LePage was making/ converting M-1 carbines in Magnum pistol cartridges. All the way up to .454 in fact.

Tim LeGendre doing buisness as LeMag.

The big'un was .45 Win Mag.

ball3006
April 29, 2013, 10:08 PM
I saw that on the NRA TV channel when they were reviewing the Shot Show. I would like to have one. A nice pairing with my Styre 9mm pistol....chris3

Float Pilot
April 30, 2013, 02:28 PM
SINCE THE M-1 CARBINE ACTION WAS MADE TO TAKE THE 1.650 long 30 cal carbine cartridge.... Something bit more zippy than a 9mm para would be more interesting and useful.
9mm ammo is almost impossible to find up here now anyway... They missed the boat by a couple of years.


30 cal m1 carbine round = Overall length 41.91 mm (1.650 in)

HOW ABOUT A CARBINE IN ONE OF THESE ?

22 HORNET = Case length 1.403 in (35.6 mm)

221 FIREBALL = Case length 1.400 in (35.6 mm)

FN 5.728mm = Overall length 40.50 mm (1.594 in)

kBob
April 30, 2013, 05:43 PM
Float Pilot,

Sounds like you need to dig up an old 5.7 Johnson/ .22 Spitfire carbine.

-kBob

kBob
April 30, 2013, 05:48 PM
Thanks Sam,

Le Mag it is. A buddy had one and semed to have problems with it.

Weirdest mod I have heard of that interested me was a guy that claimed to have seen one in a rimless .357 magnum based on .223 cases cut back. I guess the cases got blown out to allow a .357 bullet to be seated and he claimed the guy that had it had a Model 27 S&W revolver with the cylinder cut to accept the round on custom made moon clips........like most you hear at gun shows standing around a table it was likely (to be polite) not precisely true but made for some interesting thoughts.

-kBob

kBob
April 30, 2013, 05:51 PM
Now I am wondering if one might load the Carbine with saboted .223 bullets and if so what might be gained.

-kBob

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