Having complete confidense in your reloads


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gamestalker
April 28, 2013, 08:29 AM
I've read posts now and then about some that simply don't trust a reload to be reliable enough for self defense carry. These particular posts commonly express a strong impression that reloads just aren't reliable, and shouldn't be considered for a self defense application. When I read these posts, they are nearly always projected in a very " as a matter of fact " manner, as if it's a well accepted and know fact.

When I decided to start reloading over 30 years ago, my primary inspiration was to effectively reduce, or eliminate the quality control issues I had long encountered with factory ammunition, mostly handgun cartridges. Of those QC issues, misfires were the most often encountered failures, with accuracy, inconsistent velocities, obvious pressure variations, cycling problems, and sometimes an occasional deformity with the case or projectile that originated at the factory manufacturing level.

So when I began reloading, I had expected to virtually eliminate all of the major problems, and simply because I now had the ability to personally inspect and approve the rounds. At this point in time, and all these years later, I can say with total honestly, that I have yet to experience one single failure with my own reloads. I'm no expert, I'm just a very detail orientated individual. It's reloading, not knitting or pottery, so I approach it with an elevated respect, in that, my life may depend on any one cartridge I build.

So I guess what bothers me the most, is it seems many reloaders are not performing the process as it is intended and clearly explained in the instructional material.
And number two being, reloading is being given a false reputation in this respect, as if they are substandard, just because they are reloads.

The fact is, most who reloaders seem to accept that they will inevitably experience failures of some type, misfires and cycling are most commonly experienced. But also, a not so rare an experience is a KB.

My point regarding this post, is to impress upon those who share in this wonderful hobby, to take the time and interest to follow the guidelines of the experts who have invested the time and effort to teach us how to do it right.

Example: the books I learned from back in the day, never stated that keeping brass trimmed to spec. was an option, but rather the proper method. Seat primers to at least .004" below flush. Inspect every case after charging to make sure it has been charged, and appears to be consistent with the other cases. Which type cartridges require a roll crimp or taper crimp, or no crimp at all. Minimum of Double verification of data. Only keep the powder or components being used at the time on the bench. Never assume anything, use the published data and procedures at all times. Perform appropriate work ups any time a primary component has changed. Use clean non contaminated primers, powders, and brass. This is one particular I always go the extra mile on. Brass I use always gets an acetone moistened Q-tip wipe down internally prior to using it. And for brass that has been lubed, I actually dip the cases in acetone, or another residue free solution to remove any remaining film, and then I tumbled to make sure it is completely free of something that could inadvertently foul the primer or powder charge. These elements of reloading, and others I've not mentioned, are easily found in the pages of every good instructional book. And if followed to the "T" will produce ammunition that is significantly higher quality that most any ammunition available off the shelf. Factory manufacturers are constantly posting recalls, the only recall I've ever had to address with my loads, is one's I pulled because I desired to change a characteristic based on an application need not related to a performance failure.

So please, if you feel the need to post your insecurity regarding reloads for any purpose, try to remember that 99.9% of the time a problem is encountered, it was the result of not performing the process as intended and instructed by the experts, who taught me, and others with a perfect track record.

As for me, I will not trust my life to factory ammunition, over those loads I personally build. And another aspect that I think contributes to trust worthy reloads in my opinion, is using jacketed projectiles. Not because lead is unreliable, or sub standard. But because lead commonly requires lube to be on the projectile, which in my opinion increases a fouling risk. And even though there are a number of lead projectiles that will significantly out perform a jacketed bullet, jacketed is probably a better option for self defense, but because it doesn't introduce the risk of contamination.

So if you want to improve your confidence in your reloads, take the time to read your books, and then apply every procedure as presented by the experts. Don't take short cuts that can lead to a failure of any type. And approach reloading as if your life depends on it, cause it most certainly does, and at every level of the shooting sports.

GS

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45lcshooter
April 28, 2013, 08:44 AM
In over 10 years i haven't had any fail to fires with roll my own ammo. The only fail to fires given had were either 22lr, or every now and then an old mil surp round.

I would and will depend on my own rolled ammo for hunting, sport, and defense any day before factory ammo. I started reloading 22-250 because a family friend showed me 2 targets. 1 factory ammo and 1 reloads, targets were 500 yards away. I was blown away with the reloads accuracy. So that started the sickness of reloading, now over 15 calibers later, still going strong.

ID-shooting
April 28, 2013, 09:03 AM
Been reloading ~15 years. Other thsn some issues with a progressive setup early on all my ammo is 100% (i sold that progressive and load only single stage).

My mentor flat out stated "You are making little bombs, pay attention to what the fark you are doing." Haven't had a problem sense.

Some of these threads I read with new loaders and the issues they are having scare the crap out of me. I fully expect to read a KIA thread any day. I just hope I am not at the range when it happens.

I do not know any new shooters/reloaders but everyone in my circle knows I have an open door to share my meager knowlege at any time.

Walkalong
April 28, 2013, 09:34 AM
I started reloading to save money (IE: Shoot more). Then when I got comfortable with it, and learned to really work up loads, I began to trust my reloads over most factory ammo.

bigdaa
April 28, 2013, 09:45 AM
One failure in 30 years on my reloads. Period.

There is a worry that if one uses a reload to "blow away" a perp, they will be demonized in a court o-law for doing so.
I do not have specific cases as an example, but it is often that I encountered this possibility speaking with other shooters.

Would that stop me from using anything I have assembled to protect my family?

Not a chance!

I have fine self defense slugs waiting to become anything I want them to be in my supply closet. Can't wait for the next session.

Dave

627PCFan
April 28, 2013, 09:54 AM
The only ftfs I have had was with cheaper Tula primers which I don't carry anyway. I don't keep track but I'd say 2 out of 500 rounds of the top of my head. My carry loads I use all cci primers on top of individually weighed powder charges. No problems yet.

Mr.Revolverguy
April 28, 2013, 10:39 AM
I have been reloading for 20 years now. I would love to make the claim no issues with mine but unfortunately I can't. Though the issue is minor I have had it happen with all manufacture primers. I have had tula, wolf, cci, federal primers all not go off on the first try in standard no altered firearms. Tula seems to be the worst especially here lately and that is mainly with 9mm. Having said that I have never had a problem with with Federal large pistol primers in my 44mag or 45 acp platforms, neither have I had any problems with Federal large rifle primers in 500S&W or 460Mag. RIght away some might think I am not seating the primer deep enough which is what I thought initially, but sometimes the second strike will not fire the round. I always bring the rounds home disassemble them and they have all checked out fine I even re-weigh the powder. I have tried putting the empty primed case in a different firearm and typically still can't get them to fire, just a bad primer.

With the number of rounds I have reloaded the number of times this has happened is under .01%. Considering I have had the same sort of failure with factory rounds at about the same rate (very low failure) I have come to trust my reloads but still carry factory for a number of other reason which I will not mention in this thread (risk of hijacking :) ). What it boils down to for me is training, being physically and mentally ready for when a stoppage happens it is cleared rapidly from muscle memory because of the number of hours you have put in training.

Pilot
April 28, 2013, 10:43 AM
I've been reloading for a long time also, and still use a single stage press, but may go progressive or at least turret soon. I trust my reloads 100%, and find I get better accuracy in general than bulk ammo. I don't use it for carry for potential legal reasons, YMMV.

If it weren't for reloading, I wouldn't be shooting right now due to lack of ammo availability.

wackemanstackem
April 28, 2013, 10:43 AM
Right on Gamestalker! I think the biggest problem is new people getting into the hobby who just dont know or care what they are actually getting into.And with this comes problems that then lead to bad raps for the guys that do it right.I can tell you this nothing but my reloads go in all my guns ,havent had a factory load in the my guns in 30 yrs.If I ever and I hope I dont ,have to defend myself I know my loads will do the trick.One thing I do find interesting with all this craze now is the ammo makers are selling these new so called home defence loads for high dollars and people think they are getting some super load ,am sure you know as I do we have been making these loads for a long time tried and true.You can also look at things like youtube that peolpe have easy acsess to and think they can jump right into, something that looks easy to the untrained eye but as we know takes alot of knowledge to be done right.I reload because I enjoy it and its a great winter time hobby for me.As you know there comes great satisfaction from building your own bullet then busting the center out of a target.There is always going to be people who do things just because they can not because they truly enjoy it and want to do it right.

jmorris
April 28, 2013, 11:01 AM
I've read posts now and then about some that simply don't trust a reload to be reliable enough for self defense carry. These particular posts commonly express a strong impression that reloads just aren't reliable, and shouldn't be considered for a self defense application. When I read these posts, they are nearly always projected in a very " as a matter of fact " manner, as if it's a well accepted and know fact.

I have some guns that I have carried with nothing but reloads. My first priority is to know that the gun runs. 20 rounds of some designer SD ammo is not enough to give me piece of mind.

BullRunBear
April 28, 2013, 11:24 AM
In almost thirty years of reloading I've had no FTF. The only reason I use commercial ammo for SD purposes is because I have heard that prosecutors can use reloads ("killer ammunition, your honor!") against you.

I take pride in the reliability of my reloads. I stay focused on the process and don't try for speed. Easy to do since I enjoy the activity. I've been able to help a few folks get started in reloading and it is satisfying.

Jeff

Match10
April 28, 2013, 11:35 AM
Almost 50 years reloading, and no problems. There have been a few FTF but has always been traced to a weak ignition system on the firearm. No squibs, no over pressures.

I have a routine, which includes checking the powder levels of the rack before I seat bullets and I do not load progressive.

I, in fact, know my handloads are better quality than factory loads. There is a procedure and routine with rules that you follow on my bench.

Reloadron
April 28, 2013, 11:41 AM
I have perfect faith in my hand loaded ammunition and without a doubt would trust my life to it.

Making superior and reliable ammunition isn't much different than making tomato sauce.

http://bearblain.com/images/Loading%20Recipe.png

Making ammunition for an accomplished reloader is a relatively easy task much like making tomato sauce is an easy task for anyone familiar with a kitchen. However, the easy stops there! You want really great full flavored tomato sauce? That changes things. You don't start with a jar of Ragu. Around here you start with a trip to The West Side Market (http://www.westsidemarket.org/about.html) and head for the fresh produce section. You buy about 25 to 30 pounds of fresh Italian plum tomatoes. Next to the fresh garlic, parsley, oregano and round up all the ingredients. Every single component you buy for your sauce must be the very best and as fresh as you can find. There is no substitute or good enough. Only the best fresh components.

Next you begin your case prep, err sorry tomato prep. by thoroughly cleaning your tomatoes. You blanch them in boiling water and allow them to cool and then peel them removing any and all impurities from your cases, err rather tomatoes. Yes, this is time consuming and requires great attention to detail. You trim your brass to make it perfect and you trim your tomatoes to make them perfect. Anything less and garbage in / garbage out.

We carefully blend all our ingredients paying close attention to how much of each. We measure each and every ingredient carefully using our undivided attention. Anything less will make for either really lousy sauce or a hell of a bad bang. Neither being good for one's health.

Overall and on a serious note, yes I trust my life to what I load for home defense. We set our own stringent quality control procedures when we care about what we are loading.

Ron

P.S. Really great and fresh tomato sauce can be frozen. I like to make 7 gallons at a time! :)

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 12:07 PM
I, in fact, know my handloads are better quality than factory loads.

How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are. Only difference is you're introducing the possibility of human error at every step in the process.

If you've been reloading 1,000 rounds/month for 50 years (I doubt that, but we'll give it to you), then the total amount of rounds that you've reloaded is 600,000 rounds.

A quick search shows that Remington was making 1,500,000,000 rounds per year in 1992. I would imagine that it's considerably more now. At 1,000 rounds per month, that would take you 125,000 YEARS just to equal their output from 1992.

If you've ever pulled one cartridge apart in your 50 years of reloading for any reason at all, then your loads are most likely much lower quality than factory.

mdi
April 28, 2013, 12:13 PM
I'm fine with my methods. In 1969 I had a squib and nearly ruined a revolver getting it out and have had no OOPS! since, thank you Jesus. Actually I'd trust my hand crafted ammo with my life as much as or more than mass produced factory ammo...

joneb
April 28, 2013, 12:16 PM
I had a FTF with a 44 spl round I dropped the hammer twice and nothing happened. When I got home I broke down the cartridge and discovered there was no primer compound :eek: After that I inspect primers before seating.

mdi
April 28, 2013, 12:17 PM
How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are. Only difference is you're introducing the possibility of human error at every step in the process.

If you've been reloading 1,000 rounds/month for 50 years (I doubt that, but we'll give it to you), then the total amount of rounds that you've reloaded is 600,000 rounds.

A quick search shows that Remington was making 1,500,000,000 rounds per year in 1992. I would imagine that it's considerably more now. At 1,000 rounds per month, that would take you 125,000 YEARS just to equal their output from 1992.

If you've ever pulled one cartridge apart in your 50 years of reloading for any reason at all, then your loads are most likely much lower quality than factory.
Wow! I wouldn't think you know what you're talking about. A bunch of numbers to attack a poster? Do you think machines that mass produces/spit out thousands of round per hour are more accurate than a human doing one at a time?

champ0608
April 28, 2013, 12:17 PM
I've been loading .45 acp for my carry 1911 for 12 years (all with the Lee Classic Loader mind you) based on the philosophy that I trust myself much more than I trust a faceless minimum wage factory worker or worse yet, some automated machine.

I was 21 when I started, and was shooting a lot at that point. My first thoughts were that I'd save money reloading. With time, I just really began to enjoy the process (I love having a project to do, and loading a couple hundred through a Lee Loader is a project)

Eventually I realized that my reloads were very consistent, very accurate, and most importantly, very reliable. All of that combined with trusting the manufacturer (me), saving money, the satisfaction of doing it, and the added bonus of rarely needing to walk into a gun store is plenty enough motivation for me.

In that time, I've probably loaded 25,000 rounds. Early on I was having trouble getting them to cycle correctly, but my loads were weak and I wasn't creating enough pressure. I've since got that corrected and haven't had a single issue in 10 years (better than I can say for any manufacturer's ammunition.)

BullfrogKen
April 28, 2013, 12:21 PM
45 auto -

The quantity in numbers that factories push out cannot even hope to equal the quality I can as I assemble ammunition with a purposeful eye on details.

I've seen factory ammo that had the necks literally shredded and crumpled as it went though the seating process. And that crap actually ended up in a box that got sold.

I've seen primers seated backwards. I've seen a handgun go kaboom on factory loads. And I know without a doubt they were factory loads.


Don't make the mistake assuming that a factory's mass-production line means quality ammunition is coming off of it.

I trust what I make with my own two hands. I don't trust factory ammo. I've seen too many examples of the garbage they've put out over the decades to think otherwise.

splattergun
April 28, 2013, 12:58 PM
How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are. Only difference is you're introducing the possibility of human error at every step in the process.

If you've been reloading 1,000 rounds/month for 50 years (I doubt that, but we'll give it to you), then the total amount of rounds that you've reloaded is 600,000 rounds.

A quick search shows that Remington was making 1,500,000,000 rounds per year in 1992. I would imagine that it's considerably more now. At 1,000 rounds per month, that would take you 125,000 YEARS just to equal their output from 1992.

If you've ever pulled one cartridge apart in your 50 years of reloading for any reason at all, then your loads are most likely much lower quality than factory.
Rolls Royce hand builds each individual automobile.
Chevrolet spits out millions per year.

By your logic, Chevrolet must be superior to Rolls Royce.

wackemanstackem
April 28, 2013, 01:14 PM
45 auto you are missing the whole picture ,its not not that the big ammo companys cant make better ammo than us its that dont want to.They are mass production with many thousands of defective shells that you never see trust me if the thruth be told there defective rate is way beyond mine.I can count on 1 hand in 40 plus yrs of bad bullets and they where all in my first couple yrs havent had a prob in 35 yrs .The big boys could make bullets better than I am sure of that ,but they dont for a reason its the cost factor.They have much better tech than I will ever have but I know from my yrs of reloading I can make a helluva bullet if I want to and it will shoot!

beatledog7
April 28, 2013, 02:12 PM
At every step where it is possible to introduce human error, it is also possible to introduce human give-a-darn. That's what I do.

Muddydogs
April 28, 2013, 02:13 PM
I trust and carry my reloads everyday. I do load my defensive ammo on my single stage press, weight each powder charge, double check cases for right powder level and hand prime the cases checking for fully seated primer. I have shot enough of my bulk rounds loaded on the progressive to fully trust them as well, I just like to take some extra time with important defense or hunting rounds. I have had a missed primer and a couple FTF with cast bullets and the usual feed or function issues when working up a new load but once I have a proven load its good to go.

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 03:28 PM
Yep, the reason that EVERY major firearm manufacturer recommends using ONLY handloaded ammo and NOT factory ammo in their firearms is because of the vastly higher quality and fewer problems caused by the handloaded ammo! :neener:

Do you think machines that mass produces/spit out thousands of round per hour are more accurate than a human doing one at a time?

That could be easily answered by taking a poll on how many people on here would prefer to shoot other people's handloads or factory ammo.

Almost every week I have someone at the range offer me some of their handloads. I've never taken them up on the offer.

I have had handloads given to me by other people. They've all been pulled down.

I believe there was a poll on here a while back about whether posters would shoot other people's handloads. Maybe I'll try to find it if I get bored enough.

Ok, found the thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=628887&highlight=handload+poll

Looks like about 45% would shoot the reloads, 55% would not.

What do you think the percentage would be if it was 100 rounds of factory ammo instead of 100 rounds of reloads?

Overall, why do you think reloads have such a bad reputation for quality, even among reloaders?

Could it be because they realize how easily it is to make a mistake?

Cleftwynd
April 28, 2013, 03:54 PM
Most handloads are tailored to a specific firearm, and not quality checked by YOU! I trust my handloads over ANY factory rolled, handgun, rifle, or shotgun. Too bad you don't trust yourself 45.....

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 04:06 PM
Too bad you don't trust yourself 45.....

LMAO!! I trust mine, I've probably gone through more in the last year than most people will in a lifetime. But I wouldn't trust a single one of yours!

On the other hand, if you want to give me some factory loads I'll shoot every one of those. I'll shoot the cheapest Russian steel cased factory stuff you can find before I will even think about shooting one of your loads.

Why? Because their quality control has earned my trust.

If you bothered to read the link I posted, you'll see that most reloaders agree with me.

No big deal if you don't, it's your gun, your hand, your eyes - shoot whatever you like!

hovercat
April 28, 2013, 04:15 PM
If you cannot trust your ability to reload a cartridge, you should not trust yourself to safely operate a firearm or automobile.

45_auto
April 28, 2013, 04:19 PM
Good analogy. Every one can reload, just like every one can rebuild brakes on a car. Takes fewer tools to rebuild brakes than it does to reload ammo, and all you have to do for either process is watch a youtube video, right?

Do you trust ANYONE to work on the brakes on your car?

If you don't trust your mechanical ability enough to rebuild your brakes, you shouldn't trust yourself to safely reload cartridges or operate a firearm or automobile.

Match10
April 28, 2013, 04:25 PM
Hmmmm....

How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are. Only difference is you're introducing the possibility of human error at every step in the process.

I started in late 1963 with my grandfather Elmer in his gun shop....

I know it because I have 'eyes on' every round I make. Period. Machines make more errors than I have, judging from the amount of ammo recalls. My rounds are worked up for each weapon and are chosen for accuracy matching that firearm and the purpose.

There is a method to safe reloading. Ways of double checking your work. I am intelligent and a Mechanical Engineer. I have designed everything from weapons systems to produce warehouses and all manner of interesting things. None of those have fallen down either.

And .45...? I have no confidence in your reloads, either. I have no idea who you are, or what your methods are. Anybody who reloads with me, and I have taught many, have utter confidence in me. I never shoot unknown reloads, either. I do not expect you to shoot mine.

BullfrogKen
April 28, 2013, 04:50 PM
I trust myself to prepare raw food properly for dinner.

I trust my family to prepare a safely cooked meal, too.


Only times I've ever gotten food poisoning was going out to eat - in what are supposed to be kitchens properly run by people who know what they're doing.

Just saying'

GLOOB
April 28, 2013, 05:15 PM
It's not like you have to set down at your bench, come up with a new load, make exactly 15 of them to fill your CCW's magazine, then start carrying them around, untested. Just like the big manufacturers do, you can keep track of lots and figure out how trustworthy your ammo is, statistically speaking.

I have plenty of ammo that I trust for serious use. It's easy. I load and shoot thousands of rounds a year. By the time I've fired thousands of rounds of the same primer and powder lots, same loading procedure, etc, and they've all gone bang, I have pretty high confidence that the few hundred I socked away are also going to fire.

Once you have a stock of "99.9+%" reliable ammo, you have plenty for serious use. Unless you need live paycheck to paycheck and frequently have to dip into your last couple hundred rounds, you are good-to-go for years. Just keep your mags loaded, and fire off a mag or two each range trip. Then switch to your current-manufacture plinking ammo... which if it proves to be 100% reliable down the road, you have a new batch of trustworthy ammo.

Only once did I experience some failures... a particular lot number of Tula SPP. Obviously, I burned through all those reloads at the range.

loose noose
April 28, 2013, 06:10 PM
I load all my rifle cartridges on a single stage (RCBS Rock Chucker) due to the consistent accuracy I derive at long distance, never had a ftf/fte. I also use an RCBS progressive that is a 5 station for all pistol ammo, naturally I use the RCBS powder checker just before the bullet is seated. I've been reloading for over 45 years and never had a bad round with the handgun ammo or rifle ammo. I use only WW, CCI, and Federal primers and numerous different powders. When I retire to my reloading room I make certain that I won't be disturbed, and if I am I quit the reolading session until I can restart. I allmost forgot I single stage the .44 Mag, and the 357 Mag due to the type of powder and the pressures involved using WW296 and other magnum powders.

I'm sure you could say yes I have complete faith in my reloads, however as was previously stated I use Hornady Critical Defense ammo in all my personal defense ammo, due to liabilities. :D

Adk Mike
April 28, 2013, 06:19 PM
I've been in hunting camps and on trips all over the US. I always chuckle when the boys tell how much a fancy box of factory loads cost.
Except for my very first deer when i was young. All big game I've shot were with handloads that I loaded.

beatledog7
April 28, 2013, 07:00 PM
Every fail-to-fire round I've ever had was a factory round, and not all were rimfire.

I don't shoot other people's handloads because:

1) they are not loaded by a licensed manufacturer
2) they are tailored for a gun other than mine.

I do shoot factory loads sometimes because:

1) they are loaded by a licensed manufacturer
2) they are meant to work in any firearm chambered in that cartridge
3) a reloader can't buy Nyclad bullets

orionengnr
April 28, 2013, 07:24 PM
Starting with the OP and the original pretense:
I have never seen anyone state that they would not carry their own handloads due to a quality/reliability issue.

I repeatedly see people concerned (legitimately or otherwise) about carrying their own handloads due to a fear of overzealous prosecution in the result of a self-defense shooting.

I do not carry handloads, but it is really not for either of the reasons above. Rather, I do not have (reasonably economic) access to either the top end projectiles (such as the Barnes DPX all-copper bullets in a variety of calibers) or the low flash "mystery" powders used by Buffalo Bore, etc.

So...do I have "confidense" :rolleyes: in my handloads?
Yep.

And if I did not have any factory JHP rounds, I would be carrying my handloads.

wgaynor
April 28, 2013, 07:26 PM
1 failure so far, and that was within the first few months. Had a squib ( I keep track of my ammo, so I can tell when I loaded it). I've developed some paranoid techniques since then. I now place the powder in the brass and immediately seat the projectile. If I am interrupted during this process, I empty the powder out of any brass that does not have a projectile and start fresh. Then, each projectile gets weighed to spot any obvious variations.

SuperNaut
April 28, 2013, 08:14 PM
I've been reloading for about 5 years, what I know at this point is that I know very little. My thanks go to the graybeards on this forum for being gracious enough to share their experience with us n00bs.

rjinaz85308
April 28, 2013, 08:19 PM
I think many use their own handloads with full confidence. My only reservation would be using someone elses


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BruceB
April 28, 2013, 08:47 PM
45 Auto, pard;

You seem a bit lonely on your side of this fence, so....

You'n me, bud!

From the viewpoint of of almost fifty years' experience and hundreds of thousands of rounds handloaded, I DO trust my own loads implicitly. Even so, I only carry first-quality factory loads in my CCW guns. I inspect every round just in case, but it's factory stuff for me.

Full agreement on what ammo goes into MY guns, too.... if someone handloaded it, well, thanks for the offer but NO THANKS.

Rollis R. Karvellis
April 28, 2013, 09:01 PM
I, haven't had the chance to read all the post yet, but let me say this.

When I, was learning I, did make mistakes, and I'm glad I, did, because this is part of the learning process.

Now after 20 years if my product is not at least as good as the poorest factory load's, and they better be much better than those. I need to sell all of it. Then sit in the corner until Big Brother O, decides it is time for me to be "put to sleep". Because I, am of no use to my wife, country, or myself.

gamestalker
April 28, 2013, 09:30 PM
45_auto, you make a very good point, regarding not using someone else reloads, in very few circumstances would I so much as consider it. Unless I have personally supervised the person building the loads, I will not shoot theirs. Years ago I had several very close calls while shooting another persons reloads. I have taught a lot of friends and family how to reload, and everyone of them know, and practice, the proper manner in which to build a safe and reliable reload. But I am still not a proponent of shooting another person's loads, nor do I advocate it to others. I treat ammunition like a tooth brush, I won't use yours, regardless of how good your oral hygiene may be. I also would not take offense if you feel the same way about using mine.

But that is not the point I am trying to make in this thread, which all other respondents here seemed to clearly understand. My point was / is, that anyone who reloads must do it with a degree of respect, that coincides with trusting your life to them. It doesn't matter what you intend to use them for, self defense, competition, hunting, or just plinking, your life depends on them every single time the trigger is pulled, period! If you don't trust your own reloads to that degree, then it is clearly evident that you don't trust yourself. This hobby is not for everyone. And although it isn't brain surgery, it can certainly lead to needing brain surgery, if not afforded the respect it demands.

And I just wanted to add that I appreciate your response 45_auto, and that of everyone else. It helps to procure the point I was intending to make, in that, if we do not trust our reloads with our life, we may be in a hobby that requires more of us than we are willing to commit to.

GS

gahunter12
April 28, 2013, 09:34 PM
45_Auto: I trust my hand loads two fold over factory loads. All of my competition rounds are hand loads because my loads are A LOT more accurate than the factory junk. I am able to tune my loads to my specific gun. I had 13 rounds that failed to fire in a box of Winchester (100rnd) about 5 years ago. I have only had 1 failure out of about 95,000 rounds the last 4.5 years. I load about 2,500 rnds per month between .40s&w, .45acp, .38spl, and .223. All of my home defense, and carry ammo are reloads.

That said I will not shoot others loads. I want full control over my ammo load process. I also will not load for anyone else except my dad. I load some ammo for my dad, but I have tuned his rounds to his guns.

blarby
April 28, 2013, 10:17 PM
I agree.

There isn't much else to say.

In terms of using other peoples reloads..... Most folks use other peoples machine loads everyday.

Just sayin.

My ammo feeds a lot of chamber mouths, and I'd never let someone else chamber something I would not- its a pretty simple system.

Seems that none of the factory ammo producers have this same standard. Its a standard that works for me.

If anyone in the big ammo group of producers disagrees, I have a bin full of your ammo I'd love to watch you chamber and fire- please contact me by PM.

Rollis R. Karvellis
April 28, 2013, 10:18 PM
If the next time THR is upgraded can we have a thanks button added. About 9 out of 10 of the post in this thread are very good, to great and it would be nice to acknowledge them.

Almost anyone can get a licence to manufacture. Some insurance, an INS number from the IRS, and a business license in the correct zoning area of your town. You are now an ammunition manufacturer!

Come on down and get a shovel full from our Ben -O- Seconds.

The big boy's can, and do make good quality, but regardless of the type of machine you use, it is not hard to do better.

gamestalker
April 29, 2013, 02:35 AM
I read that link in the post "hand load poll" 45_auto, and it doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. Would I shoot ammunition that I know nothing about, as to it's origin? Of course not, and I feel I have clearly established that in my original thread, and others have as well. I am not discussing whether, or not, I would shoot someone else reloads, that isn't at all on topic. The post is about whether, or not, YOU trust YOUR reloads with your life," YOUR'S", over factory ammunition.

Regarding shooting someone else reloads, or ammunition of unknown origin, you made a very good point 45_auto, and I thank you for expressing such.

GS

Doug b
April 29, 2013, 04:23 AM
A few years ago I think it was Federal that started loading Sierra bullets and and called them premium loads. Then somebody else loaded Hornady bullets and called them premium or custom or what ever.Then somebody else loaded Nosler's and called them premium or supreme.There may be a reason the factories are trying to mimic what we do.Great post Gamestalker.

ArchAngelCD
April 29, 2013, 04:59 AM
All I will add is, I trust my ammo more than anything I can buy.

I'm also lucky because I seem to have a talent to be able to replicate many factory SD loads almost exactly.

I have shot a .314" 30-06 group with my ammo but have never even come close with factory loads. Get my point?

TheSaint
April 29, 2013, 06:04 AM
In almost thirty years of reloading I've had no FTF. The only reason I use commercial ammo for SD purposes is because I have heard that prosecutors can use reloads ("killer ammunition, your honor!") against you.

I take pride in the reliability of my reloads. I stay focused on the process and don't try for speed. Easy to do since I enjoy the activity. I've been able to help a few folks get started in reloading and it is satisfying.

Jeff
Has there every been a documented case where a handloaded round was deemed illegal for being to effective? Isn't that what any self-defense round is supposed to be? To the best of my knowledge, I've never heard of a case where someone has been charged in such a fashion. Those JHP's that are made by the factory can do some nasty work on internal organs. We're not shooting Nerf pellets here, we're shooting to get the job done.

45_auto
April 29, 2013, 06:57 AM
I have only had 1 failure out of about 95,000 rounds the last 4.5 years

OK, here's some quality data we can work with. Thanks gahunter12.

1 failure out of 95,000 gives us a failure rate of .0000105263.

Using Remington's production rate from 1992 (Post #14) of 1,500,000,000 rounds, that means that if Remington shipped less than 15,789 bad rounds in 1992 then they were producing better quality ammo than gahunter12. That's 315 boxes with a bad round for every state in the union, and you'd still have a better chance of getting a misfire from gahunter12's ammo than you would from Remington factory ammo.

Anybody have any reject rates from a major manufacturer? Figuring 235 working days per year, that means that in 1992 Remington could ship 67 bad rounds per day and still be producing better quality ammo than gahunter12.

No reflection on gahunter12. I've got 90,000 small pistol primers sitting in the closet right now. They've been shipped from who knows where in the back of several different trucks, subject to all kinds of vibration, bumps, and other handling factors. I would not be the least surprised if at least one had a cracked primer pellet that no amount of examination and checking will find. Loaded into a cartridge it's just going to produce a "click", no "boom". No big deal, that's why they make dummy rounds and in any decent weapons class it seems like you spend half your time practicing malfunction drills.

I can recall 1 misfire (at a GSSF match - did a tap-rack-bang and kept going) in the last couple of years out of about 4,000 rounds a month of handloads that I fire. So the quality of my loads is about the same as gahunter12's. The cartridge had a primer strike that looked perfectly normal. What happened? Who knows, bad primer, slow strike from a dirty firing pin, chamber dirty and the round didn't quite seat, whatever. I'm still not going to claim better quality than someone making BILLIONS of rounds per year unless I have some real data on a large sample of their product's performance.

cfullgraf
April 29, 2013, 08:07 AM
I have some guns that I have carried with nothing but reloads. My first priority is to know that the gun runs. 20 rounds of some designer SD ammo is not enough to give me piece of mind.

I agree with jmorris' philosophy.

Over the years, i have participated in competitive silhouette shooting, competitive skeet, and Service Rile competitions. All were shot with hand loads and the silhouette rounds were wildcats. I cannot remember an instance where a round did not perform.

I have confidence that my reloads will go "boom" when i pill the trigger. I know that my firearms will run with my reloads.

Factory ammunition is fine but I avoid the "designer" self defense bullets as i find they do not run reliably in my semi-auto firearms. I feel more than adequately protected with my hand loads.

It is in the attention to details.

Yarddog
April 29, 2013, 08:22 AM
HE (45__Auto) Does'nt Get it,, And He Reload :banghead: Sorry I'm not buying it ; )
Y/D

45_auto
April 29, 2013, 08:41 AM
Sorry you don't understand it, it appears that spelling, grammar and mathematics may not be your strong suits.

But that's the great thing about the First Amendment and free speech, anyone can say whatever they like and it's up to you to decide who you want to believe. Feel free to ignore any facts that do not fit your views and prejudices, it seems that the Democrats do it all the time on the Second Amendment!

Kleanbore
April 29, 2013, 10:37 AM
Let's stop the personal attacks now.

Kleanbore
April 29, 2013, 10:58 AM
Posted by gamestalker: I've read posts now and then about some that simply don't trust a reload to be reliable enough for self defense carry. These particular posts commonly express a strong impression that reloads just aren't reliable, and shouldn't be considered for a self defense application....

As for me, I will not trust my life to factory ammunition, over those loads I personally build.

I do not recall seeing anyone say that handloads are not reliable. I have read posts that contend that quality factory loads are sufficiently reliable for self defense, and I agree with that.

I do recommend carefully inspecting factory loads before carrying them. It might be advisable to use a scale.

The reason that many people, including in particular those who are knowledgeable of both the subject of use of force laws and the rules for admissibility of forensic scientific trace evidence, generally recommend against the carrying of hand loads for personal defense has nothing to do with reliability. Rather, it has to do primarily with the possibility that a defender may be denied the use of evidence that could prove pivotal in a defense of justification case. The likelihood of the need for such evidence is probably less than remote, but should it be needed, the consequences of not having it could be devastating. Avoiding the risk is a simple matter indeed. The subject has been discussed here at length.

See this (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=618021).

MichigammeDave
April 29, 2013, 12:04 PM
I, too, have read a lot of posters saying they don't trust reloads in their guns. But most of them were talking about other people's reloads, not their own. I have not bought factory ammunition in nearly twenty years, except for 7.62x54R, 7.62x39 and 22LR. And I'm loading for the Russian calibers now. I've never regretted it, nor do I have any qualms about my own loads. I don't know you - you may be the best loader to come down the pike, but I ain't betting my life on it! But I will - and do - bet my life, and those of my family, on my loads all the time.

WinchesterAA
April 29, 2013, 12:18 PM
Whoa.. You totally don't understand the concept of "Quality vs Quantity"

Generally, as quantity increases, quality decreases.

So, if I produce one round per year, my one round should be 1,500,000,000 times more awesome than a factory round. It's simple math, man! (ignoring diminishing returns, of course.)

gab909
April 29, 2013, 01:05 PM
If anything ever did happen, the person would be dispatched with factory ammo. Not because I dont trust my reloads, but because of the lawyers nowadays that would spin it to where I loaded it specifically to kill.

PJSprog
April 29, 2013, 02:24 PM
I've been handloading and reloading for a little over 20 years now. Like many here, I've never had a failure to fire in any of my loads. Also like most, I attribute that to an appropriate attention to detail. Still using the same single stage loader, with no plans to change that in the near future.

Do I trust my own loads? Absolutely! Every centerfire handgun, rifle, and shotgun I own shoots my loads, even the SDs. I only buy factory rimfire ammo these days, and wish I didn't have to do that either.

ArchAngelCD
April 29, 2013, 04:15 PM
45 auto,
After reading all your posts it seems like you are looking for reasons to doubt reloaded ammo. I might be wrong but that's the way it looks to me. Of course you have a right to that opinion but we who load high quality ammo for many many tears have the right to disagree. I load and shoot somewhere around 10,000 handgun rounds/year and who know how many rifle rounds for more years that I would like to remember and I have never had a failure with my ammo.

Of course a bad primer is always possible but I have not come across one yet.

gamestalker
April 29, 2013, 04:25 PM
Kleanbore, I thank you for clarifying that some may have stated that reloads are sufficiently reliable, I think that is probably more accurate than my assessment.

But the real root of the topic here is, or needs to be, the general reliability and safety of our own reloads, and having confidence that they will always go bang, and not KB. I wanted to relate how important it is to make sure it is being performed correctly for the safety of all concerned, be it a self defense situation, or other wise. And with so many new comers engaging in this wonderful hobby, the rate of failure is rising quickly. I would hate to see a post about a KIA.

GS

RetiredUSNChief
April 29, 2013, 06:07 PM
Yep, the reason that EVERY major firearm manufacturer recommends using ONLY handloaded ammo and NOT factory ammo in their firearms is because of the vastly higher quality and fewer problems caused by the handloaded ammo! :neener:

That could be easily answered by taking a poll on how many people on here would prefer to shoot other people's handloads or factory ammo.

Almost every week I have someone at the range offer me some of their handloads. I've never taken them up on the offer.

I have had handloads given to me by other people. They've all been pulled down.

I believe there was a poll on here a while back about whether posters would shoot other people's handloads. Maybe I'll try to find it if I get bored enough.

Ok, found the thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=628887&highlight=handload+poll

Looks like about 45% would shoot the reloads, 55% would not.

What do you think the percentage would be if it was 100 rounds of factory ammo instead of 100 rounds of reloads?

Overall, why do you think reloads have such a bad reputation for quality, even among reloaders?

Could it be because they realize how easily it is to make a mistake?


You're tongue-in-cheek statement is noted, but the reason firearms manufacturers have that warning about factory vs handloaded ammo is liability, not because a given reloader can't produce quality reloads.

If you are good at what you do, then there is no reason to question your own quality of workmanship. For example, I built the carbide cannon you can see in the video link below. There are a lot of people out there who could build a carbide cannon. Given a thousand random people with varied skills and experience, however, and I seriously doubt you'll find very many who would demonstrate the same quality of craftmanship that I did on that project.



If YOU are demostrably capable of consistently providing high quality reloads, then IMO you should be able to trust them under any circumstances. If you lack the confidence or the skills, however, then don't.


The subject of liability for another person's use of your product, however, is another matter to be seriously considered, whether your product is hand made or mass produced like in a factory.

;)

BullfrogKen
April 30, 2013, 12:05 AM
45 auto -

Whatever.


You can buy your mass-produced McDonald's-made ammo assembled with the least expensive, most cost-competitive components and tell yourself it tastes great if you want.

I've seen the crap the manufacturers put out. I make it better myself. I give attention to detail. I'm not making ammo hungover Monday morning after my team lost the game Sunday. I'm not looking to punch a timeclock to get home in time to take the kids to soccer, letting my mind wander until then.

I'm focused on the task at hand. I don't make the crap I've seen when a box of factory rounds are opened. I've seen factory loads with primers in backwards. I've seen ones with no powder at all, and with the flash hole not punched. I've seen squibs, and overcharges. I've seen case necks crumpled to hell with only half the neck still holding onto the bullet.

And I've seen the downrange performance of that crap.


No one I know who does well in High Power shoots factory ammo. We all load it.

higgite
April 30, 2013, 12:50 AM
I hope y'all will forgive me for trusting my life to Hornady ;), but I've only been making ammo for about 2 years. Hornady has me by a few years. I carried factory ammo before I started reloading and I see no reason to trust it any less now than I did then. I also don't have the means nor the inclination to do ballistic testing of my own reloads, so I have no idea how far my typical reloads would penetrate a block of gelatin nor how well they would expand after passing through 3 or 4 layers of denim. No, I don't trust Hornady SD ammo to go bang any more reliably than my own, but, yes, I do have more confidence in it stopping a BG in a crunch. If that ever changes as I gain experience, then I'll rethink it. ymmv

1SOW
April 30, 2013, 02:10 AM
I load my pistol ammo to run smoothly and accurately in my pistols tailored to my uses. I trust them more I trust premium factory loads. Factory loads are similar to using published load data. It/they may not run correctly in your semi-auto pistol.
For SD: How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are. .
And why exactly would I want to do that? I load SD ammo that fit my pistols and propel premium SD bullets at the published speeds that meet or exceed all standards of performance criteria at 1/3 the cost or less. This allows me to actually practice with my SD ammo. How many $1+ per SD cartridges do you practice with per month? This alone gives me more confidence in my ammunition.

Would I use commercial Gold Dot or other premium SD ammo. Yes I would, but would suffer a loss. I benefit from reloading my own. I know mine are loaded to high standards for each and every cartridge. I know the exact bullet speeds out of my pistols' barrels. I can afford to practice more with my reloads.

I have had one competition load with a FED SPP fail to ignite. I pulled it and the primer compound was a dirty brown color instead of the lime green of a good primer. This same primer could have been in a Federal premium cartridge and would have failed to fire.. I have shot 1K+ of my reloads per month for years.

Confidence is very important. If you don't have confidence with your reloads, don't use them.

ArchAngelCD
April 30, 2013, 03:48 AM
I hope y'all will forgive me for trusting my life to Hornady ;), but I've only been making ammo for about 2 years. Hornady has me by a few years. I carried factory ammo before I started reloading and I see no reason to trust it any less now than I did then. I also don't have the means nor the inclination to do ballistic testing of my own reloads, so I have no idea how far my typical reloads would penetrate a block of gelatin nor how well they would expand after passing through 3 or 4 layers of denim. No, I don't trust Hornady SD ammo to go bang any more reliably than my own, but, yes, I do have more confidence in it stopping a BG in a crunch. If that ever changes as I gain experience, then I'll rethink it. ymmv
higgite,
I will agree with you to a point. If you are loading bullets of an unknown source or have been untested, sure, since you can't test their performance go with factory ammo. BUT, most bullets these days are available as components for reloading. I like Speer 135gr Short Barrel GDHP ammo and Speer sells those bullets as components. If I load that bullet to the same velocities as the factory ammo there is no reason in the world my ammo will not perform exactly as the factory loaded ammo does.

I load that round to the same exact velocities Speer does using close to the same powder they use so my ammo is just as good as theirs. A charge of 6.8gr AA#5 under the 135gr GDHP SB bullet makes a very good replica load. (BTW, 6.8gr AA#5 isn't even the max charge allowed according to Speer) I also did some work replication their 135gr .357 Magnum SB ammo using Power Pistol. Again I was able to equal the velocities and did so without going to the max charge recommended by Speer.

I'm not telling you what you should do, I'm only pointing out testing is not always needed if you use the same bullets they already tested and send the rounds over the Chrono to be sure equal velocities...

45_auto
April 30, 2013, 07:14 AM
I've seen factory loads with primers in backwards. I've seen ones with no powder at all, and with the flash hole not punched. I've seen squibs, and overcharges. I've seen case necks crumpled to hell with only half the neck still holding onto the bullet.

Except for the missing flash hole, I've seen all the exact same things you describe in handloads MANY more times than I have in factory ammo. Does that prove anything?

How do you know that? You're using the exact same components the factories are.

And why exactly would I want to do that?

Because very few people have the equipment or expertise to manufacture their own primers, powder, or brass. If you do, then more power to you, you have complete quality control over your ammo!

But if you're not making all of your own components, your reloads can be no better than the quality standards of the components you're buying. If CCI is satisfied with a failure rate of 1 in 100,000 for their primers, then if you use CCI primers your ammo is going to have the exact same failure rate. Might be in the very first round you load, might be in the very last one before you die. Might be in number 42,587. Who knows? Feel free to try to beat the statistics if you like, that's what keeps the casinos in Las Vegas in business!

Whoa.. You totally don't understand the concept of "Quality vs Quantity"

Actually, I do. It's pretty simple. Number of Defective Products Produced divided by Total Number of Products Produced is how it's usually measured. Do you have another way of measuring it?

For example, if Remington ships 1,500,000,000 total rounds per year and 1,000 of them are bad, then 1,000/1,500,000,00 of their rounds are defective. In other words, .0000007% are bad, 99.9999993% are good.

If you produce 10,000 rounds per year for 50 years for a total of 500,000 over your lifetime, and you produce one bad round in your lifetime (due to a bad primer, whatever), then 1/500,000 of your rounds were bad. That means that .000002% were bad, 99.999998% were good.

Since .000002/.0000007 = 2.86, that means that your defect rate is almost 3 times higher than Remington's. Reminton's quality was 2.86 times better than yours. An easier way to understand it might be that you produced one bad bullet for every 500,000 you made. Remington produces one bad bullet for every 1,428,571 that they made.

Lots of manufacturers currently use the Six Sigma process (six sigma basically means 3.4 defects out of every million products produced). There's a simplified explanation of it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma

So, if I produce one round per year, my one round should be 1,500,000,000 times more awesome than a factory round. It's simple math, man! (ignoring diminishing returns, of course.)

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you using different components than the factory did? If your round works and any given factory round works, aren't they equally "awesome"?? If the next factory round works, does that mean that the factory rounds are twice as awesome as yours, etc? Feel free to show your math.

USSR
April 30, 2013, 09:23 AM
Back to the OP.

...the books I learned from back in the day, never stated that keeping brass trimmed to spec. was an option, but rather the proper method.

Qualifier: for rifle ammo, yes. For straight walled handgun ammo? In more than 35 years of loading ammo for revolvers and pistols, I have never trimmed a single case. Simply not necessary.

Brass I use always gets an acetone moistened Q-tip wipe down internally prior to using it. And for brass that has been lubed, I actually dip the cases in acetone, or another residue free solution to remove any remaining film, and then I tumbled to make sure it is completely free of something that could inadvertently foul the primer or powder charge. These elements of reloading, and others I've not mentioned, are easily found in the pages of every good instructional book. And if followed to the "T" will produce ammunition that is significantly higher quality that most any ammunition available off the shelf.

Acetone, really? Never heard of anyone going to all this trouble, but hey, if it floats your boat.

And another aspect that I think contributes to trust worthy reloads in my opinion, is using jacketed projectiles. Not because lead is unreliable, or sub standard. But because lead commonly requires lube to be on the projectile, which in my opinion increases a fouling risk. And even though there are a number of lead projectiles that will significantly out perform a jacketed bullet, jacketed is probably a better option for self defense, but because it doesn't introduce the risk of contamination.

Contamination? We talking about germs or what? I shoot hand cast lead bullets exclusively in all my handguns with zero "fouling" or "contamination" problems. Just MHO.

Don

higgite
April 30, 2013, 10:19 AM
higgite,
I will agree with you to a point. If you are loading bullets of an unknown source or have been untested, sure, since you can't test their performance go with factory ammo. BUT, most bullets these days are available as components for reloading. I like Speer 135gr Short Barrel GDHP ammo and Speer sells those bullets as components. If I load that bullet to the same velocities as the factory ammo there is no reason in the world my ammo will not perform exactly as the factory loaded ammo does.
.
.

ArchAngel,
What you say is true and makes perfect sense. But, our situations differ in two regards. First is I don't have a chrono to be able to match factory velocities. I'm sure I'll get one sooner or later, but not now. I load mostly for the enjoyment of seeing something I built punch a hole in a piece of paper somewhere close to where I want it to. But, also to practice shooting a little more economically. I know my loads will go bang, will cycle my semi-autos and will punch round holes in paper. I'm happy with that.
Second is, operating from memory here, so don't sue me if I'm wrong ;), but i think you have a ton more experience reloading than I do. Add that to the velocity matching that you have done and there is every reason in the world for you to trust your own loads over factory loads. I'm just not there, yet.
More to the OP's point, I don't mistrust my reloads' reliability to go bang, I just trust factory SD ammo to more reliably serve its purpose. You're one of the members I look forward to seeing post. Thanks for your input.

USSR
April 30, 2013, 11:08 AM
...I don't have a chrono to be able to match factory velocities. I'm sure I'll get one sooner or later, but not now.

I have a chrono, but I never run handgun ammo across it. Could care less if there's 50fps difference between factory ammo and my reloads with the same weight bullet. Simply follow good load data and when your reloads reach the same perceived power level at a certain charge weight, call it good. Just MHO.

Don

Match10
April 30, 2013, 11:57 AM
I can tell you that if I was guaranteed to have one failure in 100,000 rounds, not only would I not reload out of self-preservation.... but I would have destroyed six firearms and probably myself by now. I'm not willing to do that.

COMPLETE CONFIDENCE.

45_auto
April 30, 2013, 01:56 PM
COMPLETE CONFIDENCE.

Wow, I've never met a serious shooter who never performed a malfunction drill before! Got to admit, that's some serious confidence!

Match10
April 30, 2013, 02:17 PM
A malfunction drill is different than less than complete confidence in your handloading. I've had malfunctioning weapons, but not caused by my handloads.

You sir, are a buffoon, who just does not 'get it'. No, I do not trust your handloads. I have no doubt regarding my abilities.

GLOOB
April 30, 2013, 03:58 PM
For example, if Remington ships 1,500,000,000 total rounds per year and 1,000 of them are bad, then 1,000/1,500,000,00 of their rounds are defective. In other words, .0000007% are bad, 99.9999993% are good.
Where'd you pull this number? I suspect it's way too low. If you include their UMC line, I would increase this estimate by a factor of ten! :)

And the thing about factory ammo screwing up, is that a lot of those errors are completely avoidable by a handloader. We're talking bad OAL, missized/shaped brass, defective bullets. Or even damage during shipping.

And just cuz a reloader made x% bad ammo through his own error in his lifetime doesn't mean his current ammo isn't reliable. I made a primered dummy as my first ever cartridge. And then I lost it in the rest of the batch. Ooops. My lifetime error rate is always going to be higher than fictional Remington's! Well, I stopped making primered dummies, so this doesn't bother me. Why, after a hundred years of making ammo, are companies still occasionally shipping ammo that is so messed up it won't even fit in a chamber?

As for bad components.. well there's another thing. Most primers are eventually sold to end consumers in purchases of over 1k. And powder over 1 lb. So if a reloader has a bad lot, they'll find out soon enough. Most factory ammo reaches end consumers in puchases of <200 rds at a time. If a consumer has a bad batch of factory ammo, they're more likely to not notice until after it would have mattered!

wackemanstackem
April 30, 2013, 05:16 PM
45 auto you dont know what the failure rates are of the big boys your just throwing numbers against the wall and hope they stick.You have no access to that info ,trust me they dont give it out.I am a pretty educated man and I will bet my reloads that those numbers are much higher than you think .(like I said think).

Walkalong
April 30, 2013, 05:27 PM
I think we have beaten this poor horse enough.

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