Can Limp Wristing Cause this


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colorado_handgunner
April 28, 2013, 06:11 PM
I took my Glock 23 out to the range for the first time in over a year yesterday, and had a failure I have not seen before.

The fired round would eject, but the slide would remain open. Additionally, the next round would not be facing up, ready to feed, but would be in a "flat" position. :uhoh:

If I forced the slide forward it would feed. I was able to replicate this today trying different mags and ammo.

I am leaning toward limp wristing, :o since I found that the G23 was now very uncomfortable for me to grip after having been using a few other guns that fit my hand much better in the last year.

Does this sound like a limp wrist problem to you all?

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bainter1212
April 28, 2013, 06:23 PM
Sounds like a mag problem to me. Limp wristing won't make that round "not ready to feed". Limp wristing causes FTE (stovepipes) and FTF. The slide locking open is a mag problem or a problem with your slide release.

tmoore912
April 28, 2013, 06:27 PM
What slide lock do you have on the gun? Aftermarket? Glock? How many rounds through the gun?

Reason I asked, is I had a Glock Extended slide lock go bad on me (spring lost it's tension) on a G19 and caused pre-mature slide locks to happen. Switched it out to a new one, and no more problems. Relatively cheap fix too.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/6734 Todd Green talks about his slide locks failing.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/6549

colorado_handgunner
April 28, 2013, 07:06 PM
All stock parts. Mags are Glock factory also.

Round count probably around 700-1000.

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wrs840
April 28, 2013, 07:17 PM
Deleted by author.

tmoore912
April 28, 2013, 07:19 PM
Is the slide locked back (with the slide lock engaged) when the malfunction happens? Or is the slide resting against the next round coming out of the magazine, and it just will not go fully into battery?

How are you forcing the slide forward? Tapping on the back of the slide? Sling shotting the slide with your weak hand?

A picture of the malfunction could really help.

SilentScream
April 28, 2013, 07:26 PM
Sounds like you've had a magazine spring go bad on you. More common when you leave your magazines loaded constantly.

colorado_handgunner
April 28, 2013, 07:29 PM
Could be. But one of the two mags had stayed unloaded.

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9mmepiphany
April 28, 2013, 07:38 PM
It isn't limp wristing.

Limp wristing is a catch all excuse for Glock malfunctions. Besides which, it is impossible to have allowing the gun to move freely result in the slide locking back.

If the chambered round will not extract, it is an extractor problem. The slide locking back when the magazine isn't empty sounds like a magazine or slide stop problem

coolluke01
April 28, 2013, 07:52 PM
Thumb is pushing up on the slide stop. I've done this with my Glocks before. If you shoot thumbs forward the strong hand thumb can push it up.
Of it could be that you have the slide stop spring over and not under the top pin.

colorado_handgunner
April 28, 2013, 08:29 PM
Thumb is pushing up on the slide stop. I've done this with my Glocks before. If you shoot thumbs forward the strong hand thumb can push it up.
Of it could be that you have the slide stop spring over and not under the top pin.

Never took the slide stop off, so spring is in factory placement.

Thumb ride up is possible. That would explain why I could not replicate it in a one hand grip.

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ku4hx
April 29, 2013, 08:18 AM
Is this a new problem? What generation are the magazines? Does this happen with all your magazines? Does it happen with all ammunition you've tried? Have you had someone else shoot it? If the ammunition your using is hand loaded are you certain it's dimensionally to spec?

This can happen for a variety of reasons, but if the next cartridge in line is not rising in the magazine as it should, I'd tend to believe the magazines are at fault.

jerkface11
April 29, 2013, 08:56 AM
What ammo are you using? A slightly long OAL will cause the rounds to bind.

bigdaa
April 29, 2013, 10:56 AM
Very first thing I would try after developing the original question you posted about would be to strengthen your grip totally and try again.

And again.

And again.

If it persisted, I'd have asked another question TBD.

5-SHOTS
April 29, 2013, 12:03 PM
Check the slide stop without the slide in place: when you force it up it is supposed to return in place with enought force; if it does not do so, it is the slide stop spring broken or out of place. Put an empty magazine on the nude frame and check again what the slide stop does: when an empty magazine is inserted, the slide stop is forced up by the follower; then push the slide stop down various times and see if it pushes the follower down also. Check also the extractor on the slide and the ejector on the frame.

Try also this trick: load the magazines with one less round then the maximum and see what happens. Then load the magazines to full capacity and see again what happens. Glock magazines are famous to require a good amount of force to put them in place when fully loaded; maybe the magazines were not 100% inserted: this is when the tap-rack procedure is necessary.

If nothing helps, you are probably pushing the slide stop up when shooting.

colorado_handgunner
April 29, 2013, 10:13 PM
Thanks guys. Got a number of things to look at now. I will reply back after checking some of them later this week when my schedule allows.

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Inebriated
April 29, 2013, 11:13 PM
Have you taken the gun apart? If you put the slide stop back in incorrectly, it'll lock on every shot.

colorado_handgunner
April 29, 2013, 11:59 PM
Have you taken the gun apart? If you put the slide stop back in incorrectly, it'll lock on every shot.

Nope. Just the slide, never the frame. And that was a few years ago and it functioned fine afterwards.

herkyguy
May 1, 2013, 01:47 PM
Had the exact same problem with a G23 years ago. i switched out the mainspring and the problem continued. at the time i was thinking that 2000 rounds had worn it out, but that didn't fix it. it would happen once or twice every range trip. i was physically holding my thumb out of the way so i knew my thumb wasn't bumping the slide lock. so then i switched out all of my magazine springs but the problem persisted.

unfortunately for the OP, i ended up trading it in rather than delving into the problem any more than that.

coolluke01
May 1, 2013, 02:41 PM
Glocks dont have a main spring. Do you mean recoil spring?

If it's not the mags and you don't have the thumb in the way then it's the slide stop it's self or the slide stop spring broken/deformed or installed incorrectly.

Bobson
May 1, 2013, 02:53 PM
Sounds like you've had a magazine spring go bad on you. More common when you leave your magazines loaded constantly.
Isn't this widely accepted as being erroneous? Rather, working the spring (loading and unloading) the magazine is what weakens the mag spring. You could load a brand new magazine and put it in a box. Come back ten years later, shoot through the mag, and the mag spring should be as good as any mag that's been loaded and unloaded just one time.

OP, have you let anyone else shoot it? I know it doesn't seem to be a limpwristing issue, but it would still help to replicate the problem with a new shooter. If a new shooter can't find a way to experience the same problem, its you, not the gun.

tmoore912
May 1, 2013, 04:46 PM
Practice your weak hand shooting and see if it malfunctions. That way you can rule out the thumb hitting the slide lock.

You never mentioned what generation it was, but Glock has had some weak extraction problems in the last couple years. It was mainly with the 9mms, but I know of cases in the .40S&Ws.

When the gun is running well, what is the ejection like? Is it weak? Dribbles out? Hits your forearm? Hits you in the head? Any of that, or is it landing in a nice pile behind you?

I started having these problems in a early 2011 3rd Gen G17 after about 900 rounds. Weak ejection, erratic ejection, hitting my head, dibbling out and stovepipe malfunctions. I changed out the extractor and ejector, and it's been running fine since.

This is a 180 degree stovepipe caused by weak extraction. Happened numerous times.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/G17%203rd%20Gen/2012-05-10_15-54-30_539.jpg (http://s265.photobucket.com/user/tmoore912/media/G17%203rd%20Gen/2012-05-10_15-54-30_539.jpg.html)

colorado_handgunner
June 22, 2013, 09:31 PM
I was finally able to take the Glock back out today. After giving it a very good cleaning, it ran fine, I think what caused the issue was carbon buildup between the slide stop and the frame. Got it cleaned really well and all is good. Thank you all for the sugestions.

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rcmodel
June 22, 2013, 11:25 PM
I wasn't at all sure you can limp-wrest a Glock 23??

My 15 year old one just plain don't care how you hold it.

Glad you got it figured out.

And see, despite all the internet BS, you do have to clean Glock's every 10 years or so.

rc

tarosean
June 23, 2013, 01:10 AM
Do you have an light or laser attached to the 23??? Known issue with 23's

ku4hx
June 23, 2013, 08:00 AM
Sounds like you've had a magazine spring go bad on you. More common when you leave your magazines loaded constantly.
Flexing wears the magazine springs out, not constant tension. They can fail sooner than expected, but Glock springs are cheap and easily replaced.

Walt Sherrill
June 23, 2013, 12:23 PM
Isn't this widely accepted as being erroneous? Rather, working the spring (loading and unloading) the magazine is what weakens the mag spring. You could load a brand new magazine and put it in a box. Come back ten years later, shoot through the mag, and the mag spring should be as good as any mag that's been loaded and unloaded just one time.

No.

Coil springs will degrade with use, but if they're used as they're intended to be used -- within their design limits -- they'll probably outlast the gun.

That's why you'll find 1911 mags that have been fully loaded for 60 years that work beautifully -- they were well within their design limits. The same springs in an 8-round 1911 mag may not last as long, if left fully loaded or used regularly, as a 7-round mag spring. (Note: it's the same spring in both mags.) In that second case, they're being pushed harder when working (by compressing the spring farther) and they're also doing more work. The same is true with hi-cap mags -- they're compressed farther, and they're lifting more weight with each full cycle. (Same number of cycles occur with a 10-round mag as an 18-round mag, don't forget, yet the spring in the larger capacity mag has done almost twice as much work with each mag cycle.)

The same can be said of RECOIL SPRINGS. Some will last far longer than the gun or owner, while others (like the Rohrbach recoil springs) are supposed to be replaced every 250 or so rounds. Kind of depends on their design and what the gun designer is asking the spring to do. And if they're being pushed to their limit with each cycle...

Hi-cap and sub-compact mag springs are asked to do more than other mag springs, and are pushed farther into their elastic design limits than other springs. The more often they're pushed close to their limit, the more quickly they'll degrade. Leaving the Hi-Cap and Sub-compact mags fully loaded will cause degradation over time, but depending on their design, it may be quick or very, very slow. (Designers seeking to maximize capacity have come to view some mag and recoil springs as renewable resources; they use up springs to give the gun more capacity or operating potential.)

We've had this discussion many times on THE FIRING LINE, and a search there about mag springs and recoil springs will give you well-documented sources and citations, as well as comments by engineers who are familiar with the technology. It may have been discussed on this forum, as well.

For most guns, it probably won't matter.

Note: Tappet Springs in cars will cycle millions of time over the car's life and almost never have to be replaced -- they don't get compressed that much (into their elastic range), but do get compressed many, many times. If cycling alone wore out springs, tappet springs would die a lot more deaths than they do. Wolff Springs, in their FAQ area, recommends downloading a round or two for long-term storage on some mags. With most 10-round 9mm mags in full-size guns or 7-round 1911 mags, it's a non issue. Except for my home defense gun and my carry weapon, which generally stays in the safe, all of my other mags are empty.


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hentown
June 24, 2013, 09:27 AM
What slide lock do you have on the gun? Aftermarket? Glock? How many rounds through the gun?

Reason I asked, is I had a Glock Extended slide lock go bad on me (spring lost it's tension) on a G19 and caused pre-mature slide locks to happen. Switched it out to a new one, and no more problems. Relatively cheap fix too.]

I believe you mean the slide stop lever? The spring doesn't typically lose tension, but it can be improperly installed. Sounds like a mag spring problem to me. Not likely that he's limpwristing a G23.

colorado_handgunner
June 24, 2013, 11:35 PM
I believe you mean the slide stop lever? The spring doesn't typically lose tension, but it can be improperly installed. Sounds like a mag spring problem to me. Not likely that he's limpwristing a G23.

As I said, there was carbon build up between the frame and tge slide stop. This is what caused the slide lock to stick.

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TOMBECK
June 25, 2013, 09:24 PM
Limp wrist problems are generally seen with minimum/target level loads - very seldom with full power loads - none in my experience.

Bobo
June 25, 2013, 10:53 PM
I have limp-wristed my Springfield XDm .3.8" .45 and it does exactly what you have described.

Bobo

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