Anticipating recoil


PDA






Byrd666
April 28, 2013, 05:44 PM
So here's my problem. I went to the range the other day after finally finding some ammunition, and noticed during my practice session I was developing/having a problem with heeling, or anticipating recoil too much and a lot of my shots were going to the upper right of my target. Not all but, a good deal more than I would like.

What can I do to correct this problem?

Additional factors: I am paralyzed on my left side, so I only have the use of my right arm/hand for shooting. NO second hand support at all.

Edit: This range trip was with was is going to be my EDC, a S&W M&P 9c and the target range varied from 7+- yards to about 50+- yards using 200 rnds of115 grain ball Wolf ammo. And one twelve round clip of Black Hills 124 grn HP, My SD/carry ammo.

If you enjoyed reading about "Anticipating recoil" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
SilentScream
April 28, 2013, 06:22 PM
I think dry firing will go a long way towards curing your problem. And of course range time, I know easier said than done these days.

loose noose
April 28, 2013, 10:01 PM
Silent Scream said it all, "practice dry firing" especially if you are forced to shoot one handed. Infact I can't emphasize enough to my students the importance of dry firing.

PlaneJain
April 28, 2013, 10:16 PM
If you have a revolver, load it up with 4 or 5 out of the six holes, randomly placed. Spin the wheel, and not knowing where the empty chambers are, practice shooting (with a lot of friends). The laughter you get from your friends of your flinching on the empty chambers will soon cure you.

ArchAngelCD
April 29, 2013, 12:55 AM
All good suggestions so far and I'll add one. Shooting a 22 will also help cure a flinch. You can work on your trigger control without the recoil as you can dry firing.

For now, since you know you're shooting high right you can make an adjustment in your point of aim to compensate so you can hit center mass. It's not a cure but it will adjust impact point. (temporally)

9mmepiphany
April 29, 2013, 03:20 AM
Can we see a picture of your grip...of can you at least describe it.

When shooting one handed, a common error is to try to strengthen your purchase on the grip gripping with the thumb...this has a tendency to throw your shots off.

All you need to do is use your fingers to pull the gun into the pocket in your hand below the web...something like this:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/Gripping%20the%20gun/grip040.jpg (http://s109.photobucket.com/user/9mmepiphany/media/Gripping%20the%20gun/grip040.jpg.html)

You can avoid anticipation by just watching the sights and adding pressure to the trigger until the gun fires..never stop and never speed up the press

BCRider
April 29, 2013, 03:34 AM
I'm a big fan of some good quality .22 time for working on the basics. But dry firing can certainly help a lot.

Concentrate on pulling the trigger SMOOTHLY to the rear travel limit and hold it there through the BANG! and recoil. When the gun returns to steady your trigger should still be held back.

And "pull the trigger" isn't really a great way to say it correctly. Instead of moving the trigger just build pressure with your trigger finger smoothly and increasingly to move the trigger back. Let it move as and when it wants. By doing it this way and smoothly building pressure to bring the trigger to the rear travel limit you'll remove the focus from the BANG! and put it into holding a clean sight/target picture and building trigger finger pressure.

Try this with dry firing. When the trigger breaks the gun should not move at all. Then, if you have one, work on this aspect with a .22. Finally use it with the center fire. Go back to dry firing in this way or .22 shooting as needed when the flinch comes back.

The other aspect may be that you're overcompensating for only using one had and holding the gun with a death grip. When you do that you make it very hard to isolate your trigger finger from the rest of your hand. Lighten up to a firm but friendly handshake sort of grip strength and see if that helps. If in doubt try relaxing a little instead of tightening up.

In the end accept that you can't fight recoil and win. All you'll get for trying is groups that look like they came from handfuls of thrown gravel. Instead work at a smooth and calm support for the gun where you do your best to simulate a Ransom Rest while moving only your trigger finger. Train to ignore the BANG! while focusing instead on the sight picture and trigger pressure build up in a smooth way.

Blackstone
April 29, 2013, 07:53 AM
Hmm, I always thought anticipating or flinching moved shots to 6 o'clock. At least that's the way it was (and still is) for me.

45_auto
April 29, 2013, 09:50 AM
I'm with Blackstone. I've seen a LOT of people flinch down in anticipation of recoil, never seen anyone flinch UP!!

Byrd666
April 29, 2013, 02:05 PM
9mm

My grip is pretty similar to the pic you show, webbing of right hand placed against the curve under the beavertail, firm, but not squeezing grip on the grips with my thumb pointing in a straight manner towards the muzzle/target. Focus of my target is on the target with the front sight only. Squeezing/slowly pulling trigger to the rear until firing occurs. Some shaking does occur the longer I go during my range sessions, as can be expected.

And for what it's worth, I do dry fire exercises 5-7 nights/days a week. And I did recently purchase a .22lr pistol just for practice in getting my basics down a bit better. Unfortunately said 22 is a p.o.s. and needs to go back to the factory for repair. Another story for another day.

Thanks for all the help so far.

9mmepiphany
April 29, 2013, 03:50 PM
Hmm, I always thought anticipating or flinching moved shots to 6 o'clock. At least that's the way it was (and still is) for me.
I'm with Blackstone. I've seen a LOT of people flinch down in anticipation of recoil, never seen anyone flinch UP!!
Anticipation of the trigger breaking is manifest in more than one way.

I usually dismiss the Correction Wheel because many folks still use it as a diagnostic tool when shooting two-handed, which is in contrast with this situation where the OP is shooting one-handed...as the wheel was designed to diagnose. Well aren't talking about flinching the trigger, but heeling the gun

Heeling a result of tightening/straightening the wrist, it has the opposite effect of tightening the fingers while leaving the wrist flat. It is more common among 1911 shooter than Glock shooters due to the wrist geometry of pointing the gun

9mmepiphany
April 29, 2013, 04:00 PM
9mm

My grip is pretty similar to the pic you show, webbing of right hand placed against the curve under the beavertail, firm, but not squeezing grip on the grips with my thumb pointing in a straight manner towards the muzzle/target. Focus of my target is on the target with the front sight only. Squeezing/slowly pulling trigger to the rear until firing occurs. Some shaking does occur the longer I go during my range sessions, as can be expected.

Have you tried the different backstraps to see if they affect your hold?

Do you normally lock your wrist?
Try a more relaxed hold to see if it makes a difference

YZ
April 29, 2013, 04:18 PM
I'd like to let you know, not everyone practices dry firing. I have been taught to, and to this day I find it tedious and unnecessary. As long as you know your handgun. (If you are into serious competition and such, then listen to someone else)

One tidbit you might find useful. Don't hold your gun in a death grip. Your grip can be firm but supple, not spastic. Tell yourself not to worry about the muzzle flip. Just let it fly up if it wants to. (Single action revolver shooters do it all the time)Your shot will still go where you aimed. Forget the double taps, speed shooting, or what the guy next lane might think. Focus on one shot at a time, and go from there.

Byrd666
April 29, 2013, 04:39 PM
I don't normally lock my wrist per se but, it is normally pretty firm to avoid the "limp wrist" problems.

I tried several different grips during my last session. Some more firm, some more loose, some higher grip and some lower grip. Along with different placement of my finger on the trigger. Unfortunately I didn't bring my log with me to record what worked best, etc., as I was going through it the night before and left it on the table.

Maybe I'm just nit pickin' as all my shots were hitting center mass on my target and were well within acceptable qualifying parameters. They just weren't hitting close enough, for me, to what I was aiming at.

Never thought about changing out the backstraps. I'll have to take that with me next time out.

YZ
April 29, 2013, 05:09 PM
Speaking of the limp wristing. A lot of talk is dedicated to it. I used to believe in it, too. Until I took lessons from people who didn't. They demonstrated repeat shots while holding a production semiauto handgun between a finger and a thumb.
Nothing may be absolute, but in the vast majority of limp wrist cases the real problem is what you described. Anticipating the recoil. An active though imperceptible hand movement, not a weak grip.
This is not to start another !@#$storm in a cup, only answering your question. Make it limp or tetanus, you will hit what you aim at the moment your gun goes off.

9mmepiphany
April 29, 2013, 05:19 PM
It might make a difference and it can't hurt.

Most folks use the Med that comes installed, but it really isn't a much about hand size as it is not filling or over filling your hand. I get a more consistent grip with the Large backstrap installed. The larger palm swell fills my palm better, but the larger rear arch almost over extends my finger reach...plus the web of my hand feel empty.

I finally went back to the Med. backstrap and built up the rear surface, the recurve and palm swell with Sugru

dirtykid
April 29, 2013, 05:50 PM
It may not be feasible with your weapon,

But I found that when I installed a pair of CT-grips on my SP101 .357, my trigger pull
quickly improved , when you can see the red-dot bouncing around thru the cycle of pulling the trigger, you learn to correct your grip pretty quick

Feanaro
April 30, 2013, 12:10 AM
Load some snap caps or, if your pistol will feed them, empty cases into all your magazines. (Or load your revolver with snap caps, as the case may be) It works better if someone else does it where you can't see it - then it's a complete surprise. Focus on pulling the trigger back slowly, so it's hard to tell when the shot will break. This helps me.

Byrd666
May 2, 2013, 12:10 AM
Dumb question but, I'm gonna' ask anyway. Do ya'll think a single action only pistol will help?

I'm looking for a Real good reason to buy a Sig P220 SAO carry.

Thank you all for the responses and or help.

9mmepiphany
May 2, 2013, 12:43 AM
Help stop anticipation, no

Mask the effects, yes

It might make you feel better in the short run, but it is likely to permanently instill a bad habit

Byrd666
May 2, 2013, 11:14 AM
That's what I figured. Looks like a trip to the range is in order for a few more experiments. And a lot more practice.

BCRider
May 2, 2013, 02:19 PM
Byrd, stop and consider for a moment that they Olympic handgun events and full on classic bullseye shooting is done one handed. So in this sort of field you are simply not at a handicap. Instead it's more about working on the basics and identifying and correcting whatever problems you have either with your equipment for fit or with you.

Would a single action trigger help? I agree with 9mm that it may at first but that it's masking the true issue.

In my own case I shoot a lot of DA revolver in my matches and practice. And odd though it may see I found that the basics needed to shoot well with such a long trigger pull with a surprise ending actually let me shoot my revolvers better in DA than in SA. Some of this is due to my lack of SA shooting practice. But it does illustrate that it's more about the shooter's skill, control and focus on the correct aspects that counts.

In IPSC and IDPA stages sometimes call for strong or weak hand only. In practicing for this I found that it is not uncommon to shoot smaller groups with my weak hand than my strong hand. Why? Likely because I tend to focus on doing everything just right knowing that my weak hand is my usualy less capable hand.

I've also seen more than one seasoned shooter state that folks that can shoot DA revolvers with good accuracy can shoot anything well. It comes from having to concentrate on a smooth pressure build to the surprise BANG! while holding the sights on target. Which relates to what I posted earlier about becoming more intimate with how your trigger feels as the pistol cycles.

And just to show that I'm far from perfect either I still encounter return visits from "Ol' Man Flinch" on a regular basis. Shooting handguns well is very much a perishable skill. And much of it is the proper detachment from the big bang that the gun produces. Once you can reach and maintain that sort of control I think you'll find that your group sizes shrink a lot. And don't let yourself use your paralysis as an excuse for you to ease off. Remember those folks on the Olympic team and all the still current slow bullseye competitions that only use one hand.

Hopefully your .22 will come back soon in fine order. Dry firing is fine for the basics. But I honestly feel that it's too easy to do well at dry firing because you know that there's no big BANG! coming. On the other hand even the little bang! of a rimfire provides the sort of punctuation that aids in proper practice. Plus it makes it easier to see the results of the rest of the stuff by actually seeing the results on a target.

YZ
May 2, 2013, 03:13 PM
Dumb question but, I'm gonna' ask anyway. Do ya'll think a single action only pistol will help?

I'm looking for a Real good reason to buy a Sig P220 SAO carry.

Thank you all for the responses and or help.
Not really, because single action pull will be about same on a DA/SA 220 Elite. (Which is why I chose it at the factory shop). You can simply ignore DA and cock the hammer first.

The only meaningful difference is the decocker. Since you are not planning to carry it on your person in Cond 1, the decocker may be more a more convenient safety for shooting sports. The only exception is formal competition where you will have to fire the first shot in DA, if pistol so equipped.

gamestalker
May 2, 2013, 05:00 PM
A technique I have used for many years is to have someone load the weapon for me, and then alternate between live rounds and snap caps, without telling me. This helps to eliminate anticipation driven response when pulling the trigger.

I did this with every one of my family members, and it helped them fine tune their shooting skills much quicker. This is simply because they can see what they are doing when that hammer drops.

GS

Pyro
May 3, 2013, 03:56 AM
I dunno about that target graph thing you posted.
Shooting is like golfing, it's all about little adjustments and perfect practice.

Steve C
May 3, 2013, 09:34 AM
IMO anticipating recoil is a mental problem, mostly a failure in concentration on site picture and trigger control while allowing the mind to wander on to other things. If you get a proper surprise trigger release its pretty impossible to anticipate the recoil. You are probably trying to make your shot happen rather than letting it happen. Practice on concentrating on your sites and trigger control, just letting the recoil happen and not thinking about when it is is coming.

Take a couple minutes to watch this: Jeff Cooper on Proper Trigger Pull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo)

A whole lot of good shooting is mental rather than the physical.

Hokkmike
May 3, 2013, 10:05 PM
I had a semi that was uncomfortable to shoot.

Switch to a revolver of a smaller caliber.

99.9999999999999999% of handgun shooting is practice. The rest MAYBE for actual defense. If you can't enjoy practice then what is the point?

Byrd666
May 4, 2013, 12:02 AM
Hokkmike

My pistol IS comfortable to carry and to shoot. That is not the problem. Anticipating, or over anticipating recoil is. Not the pistol.

BCRider
May 4, 2013, 02:27 AM
SteveC, you are quite correct. But KNOWING these simple things and forcing or training our bodies to ignore all the other stuff isn't as easy as all that in many cases.

Blackstone
May 4, 2013, 06:22 AM
SteveC, you are quite correct. But KNOWING these simple things and forcing or training our bodies to ignore all the other stuff isn't as easy as all that in many cases.
Agreed, the faster I shoot, the more likely I am to pull a shot.

Hokkmike
May 4, 2013, 10:59 AM
My pistol IS comfortable to carry and to shoot. That is not the problem. Anticipating, or over anticipating recoil is. Not the pistol.
Byrd666

I think we are communicating but not understanding each other. What I mean is that recoil, both felt and heard, is inherent in the design of a gun. A pistol may feel and look good in your hands but when you shoot it the recoil is part of the "gun" experience. For example - I had a Walther PPS .40 that looked and felt good in my hands. But it was so light that it bucked like a tiger in recoil. Sounds is a factor too but shooters here are savvy enough to wear ear protection.

If the felt recoil of a particular handgun given the best grip possible is not sharp or painful then there is little or nothing to anticipate or over anticipate. I have fired some .380's for example of the same approximate size and weight where the design of one over the other has lead to less felt/perceived recoil. They may all feel good in your hand up to the second they are fired. Some guns are just not fun to shoot. Others are a pleasure and you can fire away all day.

I hope I have explained my thought a little better to you. Perhaps I do not fully understand what you mean by anticipating and/or over anticipating recoil. The term I would be most familiar with is "flinching". Are you talking about that or simply adjusting the hold to accommodate for the effect of recoil on the first and following shots for accuracy?

Thanks... Good discussion.

The M
May 4, 2013, 11:14 AM
It's already been mentioned about dry firing being invaluable. I'd like to go a step further and add a laser sight to dry firing. It makes it painfully obvious to see the dot jump (or not) when the hammer snaps forward.

Blackstone
May 4, 2013, 01:36 PM
It's already been mentioned about dry firing being invaluable. I'd like to go a step further and add a laser sight to dry firing. It makes it painfully obvious to see the dot jump (or not) when the hammer snaps forward.
There's no need to even buy an expensive laser sight. Any cheap laser that you can tie to your gun is all you need. You just have to be able to see a dot downrange to give you direct feedback.

Byrd666
May 4, 2013, 06:52 PM
Okay,let me try to explain in a bit more detail.

The pistol I'm using for this discussion is a Smith M&P c9 with the medium grip swell. No lasers or lights, etc., and bone stock for now. A trip to Bowie Tactical is in the future. I was using Wolf 115gr ball ammo for this session, 200 rounds worth, and one (12) twelve round clip of Black Hills 124 grn HP at the end. Pretty much dead on with the latterat about ten yards. Hearing and eye protection was used, both ear plugs and Mickey ears. And at ranges varying from 7+- yards to 50+- yards using a "dirty bird" type silhouette target.

As stated earlier, different grips and finger placements were used with varying degrees of success.

Where my problem is, was that even though all but one or two flyers, due to total loss of concentration on my part, were within the center mass area of the target my "anticipation" was causing me to make continuous though unintentional heart shots instead of sternum shots. Where I want to get myself to be in terms of accuracy is quite simple. Thirteen continuous head shots at fifty yards.

Since I'm normally by myself, as said before, it's hard to get feedback from others to tell me if it is a flinch. I don't feel as though it is a flinch but, more of a reaction to the recoil itself. Just in advance of it. I know when the trigger is pulled back to "that" certain point, the pistol is going to go BANG, and there will be pressure pushing back at me and the muzzle is going to move upward a bit. But, for some reason, that alone is effecting my shooting.

9mmepiphany
May 4, 2013, 09:43 PM
I know when the trigger is pulled back to "that" certain point, the pistol is going to go BANG, and there will be pressure pushing back at me and the muzzle is going to move upward a bit. But, for some reason, that alone is effecting my shooting.
Yup, that isn't a flinch per se, but it is anticipation...you're tightening your grip in anticipation of the impending recoil.

The objective is just to keep adding pressure to the trigger until the shot breaks. I had a simular problem with the stock M&P trigger...it was gritty and there was a hump at the rear of the travel just before it broke. The installation of Apex Tactical parts made the stroke very smooth and the problem went away

Byrd666
May 4, 2013, 10:07 PM
That is almost exactly what I was thinking. Just that minute change in grip is throwing me off ever so slightly. Guess that I'm gonna have send 'er off to Bowie Tactical sooner than later.

Thanks ya'll
Byrd

Mousegun
May 5, 2013, 04:14 PM
It is a natural thing for the body to simply dislike recoil. It took me a year of shooting three times a week to get over it but I did.

I tell my trainees that it is more important to squeeze the trigger smoothly than it is to be exactly on target and pull the trigger when you are on target. There is a natural movement everyone has, some more, some less but if the gun fires without any sort of flinch, generally you will make a better shot than if with a pulled trigger.

If your problem is anticipating the recoil, that is something you will have to get over with repetition and loss of natural recoil fear for lack of a better word. All the above suggestions will help but nothing beats constant hammering that the ole' bod will eventually get used to.

brickeyee
May 6, 2013, 01:59 PM
The diagnostic target works for right handed Bullseye style shooting.

It has for years, and is not likely to change.

It originated in an old army handbook.

DoubleTapDrew
May 6, 2013, 03:05 PM
Here's a free one to try. It helped me.
Concentrate on a smooth trigger pull (not letting it stack or pause before the shot breaks) and to take your mind off when it's going to fire, repeat "front sight, front sight, front sight" as you are increasing pressure on the trigger. Keep saying that until the shot breaks. Repeat a few hundred times.

9mmepiphany
May 6, 2013, 07:00 PM
Repeat a few hundred times.
The rule of thumb is 10k

Byrd666
May 6, 2013, 11:09 PM
Thank you guys and or girls for all the input.

Quite a bit was learned during this thread for me.

brickeyee
May 7, 2013, 12:30 PM
The rule of thumb is 10k

Only if they are 'correct'.

Otherwise you need to start over for another 10k.

I know I am way over that 'limit' by many many times.

If you enjoyed reading about "Anticipating recoil" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!