New AK


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red rick
April 29, 2013, 07:44 PM
I joined another gun forum and like most it cost me money.

I found this used/unfired Arsenal SAM7R at a price that I could not resist and it was local.

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Piratesailor
April 29, 2013, 07:49 PM
Nice find!

arizona_cards_11
April 29, 2013, 07:53 PM
Great find! I purchased my Arsenal SAM7R-61 from K-Var not too long ago and finally got to shoot it this weekend. It was nice.

My sights are a tad off...so I've ordered a front-sight tool. Hopefully I'll get to shoot some groups soon. I'm also going to put some wood furniture on it.

red rick
April 29, 2013, 07:58 PM
I plan on putting wood on mine also.

I looked at Iron Wood Designs. Do you know a better place to get wood furniture ?

arizona_cards_11
April 29, 2013, 08:11 PM
I looked at the Iron Wood options as well....the 6-8 week waiting period was a little beyond my patience.

The only other place I could find (what looks like) a decent double tanged Bulgarian stock set was Northridge Inc.

http://www.northridgeinc.com/store/index.cfm/c168/i1430

They're used/surplus, so they probably aren't in pristine condition. That sort of thing doesn't bother me on an AK variant. If I decide to re-finish the set, I could always do that later. The price wasn't too bad either.

bigdaa
April 29, 2013, 08:14 PM
Milled. Mmmmm mmmm tasty.

red rick
April 29, 2013, 08:32 PM
Wouldn't the ones from northridgeinc make it non compliant ?

Girodin
April 29, 2013, 08:37 PM
Milled. Mmmmm mmmm tasty.

I'm still yet to hear what functional benefit a milled receiver truly offers. They do weigh more though.

bigdaa
April 29, 2013, 08:54 PM
I'm still yet to hear what functional benefit a milled receiver truly offers. They do weigh more though.
Functionally they operate the same. I found the Milled versions I had were more stable under recoil allowing follow on shots faster recovery. They are quieter, too as they are plain old rock solid not being "pinned together".

These are only my observations. I can say more but then I would be speculating.

I've had 3 stamped and two milled. My Bulgarian milled was the very, sweetest of them all. The Hungarian stamped, the sweetest of that variety.

arizona_cards_11
April 29, 2013, 10:01 PM
Wouldn't the ones from northridgeinc make it non compliant ?
I believe you'd have to replace 2 Bulgarian parts with US made parts.

Girodin
May 3, 2013, 01:23 AM
I found the Milled versions I had were more stable under recoil allowing follow on shots faster recovery.

How did you measure this?

What was the relative difference?

What muzzle devices, if any, were on the guns in question?

Have you tested the difference with guns wearing any of the particularly effective brakes?

They are quieter,

Quieter in what sense? When fired? When carried around? When manually cycled? I'm not sure what exactly you are asserting?

-v-
May 3, 2013, 01:29 AM
Giordin: My guess is it has to do with the milled AK's being heavier, thus they are more stable while shooting, and as for quieter, they probably don't resonate as much as the stamped receiver guns due to different harmonics of the receiver due to thickness - in regards to the sound of the action.

All that said, I do prefer stamped AK's as well. I'll take the lighter weight, and while the milled has more absolute durability, they have the same relative durability.

Girodin
May 3, 2013, 01:49 AM
That would be my thought as generally a heavier gun has less muzzle rise and/or felt recoil. I'm interested to hear what the actual difference in quantifiable terms was though and to hear the process for determining it and means of measuring it. These seem like important things to know to evaluate the claim as well as to be able to consider whether the weight and price penalty of a milled gun are a good trade for it.

the milled has more absolute durability, they have the same relative durability.

That is a point that I think a lot of folks touting milled guns fail to account for.

meanmrmustard
May 3, 2013, 06:00 AM
It's 6 of one, and all that jazz.

You can do a Spetsnaz Push-up with either.:)

Inebriated
May 3, 2013, 06:03 AM
Milled guns always feel better in the hands.

They've never demonstrated themselves to be anymore accurate or reliable, in my limited experience with them, though.

bigdaa
May 3, 2013, 09:41 PM
How did you measure this?

What was the relative difference?

What muzzle devices, if any, were on the guns in question?

Have you tested the difference with guns wearing any of the particularly effective brakes?



Quieter in what sense? When fired? When carried around? When manually cycled? I'm not sure what exactly you are asserting?
You must be looking for lab results that I'm not capable of supplying.

Like I said: "Milled. Mmmmm mmmm tasty." They are sweet.


and: "These are only my observations."

Take them with whatever condiment you choose.

Guns and Bikes share a commonality in my heart: I've never met one I didn't like to shoot or ride.


PS......................no brakes on any of the guns I owned here in California. Somehow they were considered voodoo or bad political mojo or something.

red rick
May 3, 2013, 10:29 PM
+1 bigdaa, I will be riding tomorrow.

I really like the feel of my milled AK. It feels like a quality firearm and 8lbs. doesn't feel heavy to me. Maybe because I am use to holding up a 730 lb. bike.

I just ordered 2 Circle 10 mags for it Thursday.

bigdaa
May 3, 2013, 10:35 PM
+1 bigdaa, I will be riding tomorrow.

I really like the feel of my milled AK. It feels like a quality firearm and 8lbs. doesn't feel heavy to me. Maybe because I am use to holding up a 730 lb. bike.

I just ordered 2 Circle 10 mags for it Thursday.
If I can pull my head out and finish my maintenance on my ZX10R, so shall I. So shall I!

Keep the rubber side down.

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 12:34 AM
You must be looking for lab results that I'm not capable of supplying.

I'm hardly looking for lab results, I am asking what is the basis of the opinion. If I say I shoot my 5.56 AR faster than any of my 7.62x39 AKs, someone could fairly ask how I came to that position. I could in turn say that I know that because I have measured my times on similar courses of fire with a shot timer. That is hardly a lab result, but is also a very very far cry from a baseless assertion.

I'm not even trying to disagree with your observations. I would simply like to understand what it is you are actually trying to assert and what you base those assertions on.

Lots of people on here like to make lots of assertions and claims. A shocking number of them seem to get annoyed at anyone asking them the basis. Perhaps because they don't want to admit their claims aren't really based on anything quantifiable? I don't know.

red rick
May 4, 2013, 12:51 AM
Girodin do you have an AK, or are you looking to get one ?

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 01:38 AM
I have a double digit number of AKs. I have also parted ways with some AKs I used to own. I likely will buy more AKs. That said, I don't own nor have I shot every variant available let alone in the various configurations all those guns could come. Further, I am always interested in other peoples opinions on them. Although I tend to place a lot more stock in some opinions than others. I like to hear what people think, its just nice to know what they are basing it on and what they really mean.

bigdaa
May 4, 2013, 10:13 AM
Well, giro, share up.
You must have some valuable observations on the type and I would like to hear them.

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 04:31 PM
Are you asking a specific question or for a general opinion? Or are you just ducking the questions of what you were basing your statements on and how you quantify the difference?

You said a milled gun allows faster follow ups. Is, "what is the difference" really a difficult question? Is it so hard to say how you measured the difference or to simply state that you didn't measure it in any way and it is just the sense you get shooting. Why talk in circles?

red rick
May 4, 2013, 07:17 PM
Count me as one of the annoyed ones now.

I was giving you the benefit of not owning an AK and looking for one. You own enough to have a opinion on it, not that I care what your opinion is.

I bought a milled receiver one because that is what I wanted. It just feels like a better quality rifle to me. The milled receiver puts the weight in the center and I like that feel and balance. The first thing my brother said when he picked it up was " that is the best feeling AK that I have felt ".

SabbathWolf
May 4, 2013, 07:51 PM
Milled receivers flex less and generally tend to be more accurate. But....that only counts when you don't have a POS barrel on it.

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 11:31 PM
I've never seen any real evidence that milled guns are more accurate than stamped ones on account of the milled receiver. I've never seen anything that would suggest that the barrel isn't really the factor at play the most. It has been my experience that stamped guns will shoot groups just as good as milled guns when both have decent barrels an other factors (such as ammo and sights/optics) are comparable. Many milled receiver builds have better barrels than some stamp gun builds.

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 11:37 PM
You're annoyed that I want to understand what he is actually saying and be able to evaluate the basis for it? Hmmm interesting. Is your brother Jim fuller or sonny P or someone else with a broad experience with aks such that anyone here should be impressed by his comment or what he thinks? Look at what the people really experienced on aks often choose to have built for them at great expense.

If some one wants a milled gun, good for them. If they are going to make a factual assertion on the other hand it's not to much to ask that they have even a mustard seed of evidence to support it, is it?

Inebriated
May 5, 2013, 12:44 AM
Is your brother Jim fuller

Now that would be cool...

aka108
May 5, 2013, 10:12 AM
You will love the Arsenal AK. I bought a SA M7S about10 or 12 years ago with a Kobra red dot sight. Very enjoyable thing to use on the range.

SabbathWolf
May 5, 2013, 01:44 PM
I've never seen any real evidence that milled guns are more accurate than stamped ones on account of the milled receiver. I've never seen anything that would suggest that the barrel isn't really the factor at play the most. It has been my experience that stamped guns will shoot groups just as good as milled guns when both have decent barrels an other factors (such as ammo and sights/optics) are comparable. Many milled receiver builds have better barrels than some stamp gun builds.
Well, it's been my experience that milled guns are more accurate. So....whatever.

Girodin
May 5, 2013, 04:35 PM
Which guns specifically are you comparing or do you have experience with? I'm not questioning your experience. Rather, I think that milled receiver guns are often builds that have better barrels than a lot of the stamped guns out there. I think you will find that the better built stamped guns (veprs, saigas, etc) give up nothing to milled guns in terms of accuracy. That is my experience and I have never seen anything credible to suggest it is unique. Builds with old parts kit barrels or other questionable barrels that is a different matter. In sum, I totally believe you have experienced milled receiver guns shooting better. However, I still believe there is little to suggest that a milled receiver gun is per se more accurate than a stamped gun. I also would really question what accuracy difference is going to actually show up for anyone when shooting with wolf ammo, open sights (or even a 4 MOA dot RDS), from field positions. I know that some of my guns (not just talking AKs here) are more accurate from the bench with particular ammo. Run cheap ammo, and shoot from field positions and often any difference doesn't show up because there are other limiting factors at play at that point.

SabbathWolf
May 5, 2013, 06:24 PM
I suppose you could argue about it all day when throwing in 100 different variables like that.
But in general, off the shelf quality milled guns are more accurate.
Saigas and VEPRs do shoot quite well though.

Inebriated
May 5, 2013, 07:47 PM
I've had a test in mind for quite some time on how to test the accuracy of milled vs. stamped. The tools, time, and money have prevented me from doing it. Girodin, if you're truly interested in testing them, I'd be glad to share my ideal method.

-v-
May 5, 2013, 07:48 PM
I think its more accurate to say that a quality off the shelf gun regardless of milled or stamped receiver will shoot better than a parts gun built with a questionable used barrel using good ammo.

Girodin
May 5, 2013, 08:24 PM
he tools, time, and money have prevented me from doing it. Girodin, if you're truly interested in testing them, I'd be glad to share my ideal method.

My guess is that any truly meaningful test would require a statistically meaningful number of receivers of each type, a decent number of barrels, and swapping barrels between receivers of each type. I won't lie, I have no interest in spending my time swapping even a single barrel between one receiver of each type and certainly not taking the additional time to do what would be required to make the results even approach being something meaningful. I think it would be an interesting test. However, not interesting enough for me to dedicate my resources and limited time to it. With the warm weather I'd rather spend my free time on my boat, riding my motorcycles, riding my horses, or attending more training courses (I'm hoping to get a HSP pistol class and perhaps a Vickers class in this year). Any AK time I can muster is already spoken for with a pending suppressed SBR 7.62x39 project I have begun. Maybe one of the people who likes to spend their free time making videos for their youtube channels would take it up. As I said, it would be interesting. Sadly most people probably don't have the ability to pull and install barrels, even if they did have the other resources to do it right.

I'm content to say that I have never seen any milled gun shoot consistent groups that I have not seen equaled by stamped guns. That, among other reasons, is why I don't think that a milled receiver per se gives a more accurate gun.

Inebriated
May 5, 2013, 08:37 PM
My guess is that any truly meaningful test would require a statistically meaningful number of receivers of each type, a decent number of barrels, and swapping barrels between receivers of each type

Precisely.

SabbathWolf
May 6, 2013, 12:26 AM
I think its more accurate to say that a quality off the shelf gun regardless of milled or stamped receiver will shoot better than a parts gun built with a questionable used barrel using good ammo.
Yep. I do agree with that 100%

bigdaa
May 7, 2013, 10:06 AM
All AK's I owned or own are full up factory fresh guns, or were that way before I defiled the with copious ammo allotments.

It is safe to say that the heft of the milled is a more stable platform with these guns being equal (NHM-91 Is RPK) which mine were. No brakes, no flash suppressors, no additions.
Firing standard the heft of the milled (Norinco or Arsenal (Bulgarian)) these guns whacked the shoulder less and settled fast. Sure the weight would come into play while exhausting a 30 round mag at a round every 2 or 4 seconds.

I did have an easier time hitting soda/beer cans at 100-150 yards with the milled guns.

Like I said, that's my impression.

I'd love to have another milled version, but correct me if I am not mistaken, the rifles available from the suppliers are all parts guns, aren't they?

Heck, the point is moot......I live in California and the days of ownership are numbered.

One thing is definite: My money is on a Factory milled being more accurate than a factory stamped everything being equal. There is more play in a stamped system than milled.
Reliability I can't say, but the AK track record across the board speaks for itself.

bigdaa
May 7, 2013, 10:11 AM
My guess is that any truly meaningful test would require a statistically meaningful number of receivers of each type, a decent number of barrels, and swapping barrels between receivers of each type. I won't lie, I have no interest in spending my time swapping even a single barrel between one receiver of each type and certainly not taking the additional time to do what would be required to make the results even approach being something meaningful. I think it would be an interesting test. However, not interesting enough for me to dedicate my resources and limited time to it. With the warm weather I'd rather spend my free time on my boat, riding my motorcycles, riding my horses, or attending more training courses (I'm hoping to get a HSP pistol class and perhaps a Vickers class in this year). Any AK time I can muster is already spoken for with a pending suppressed SBR 7.62x39 project I have begun. Maybe one of the people who likes to spend their free time making videos for their youtube channels would take it up. As I said, it would be interesting. Sadly most people probably don't have the ability to pull and install barrels, even if they did have the other resources to do it right.

I'm content to say that I have never seen any milled gun shoot consistent groups that I have not seen equaled by stamped guns. That, among other reasons, is why I don't think that a milled receiver per se gives a more accurate gun.
I would like you to re-read this post of yours the next time you feel that you have to go out and get all over a poster for their comments on their particular likes in guns and their general feel for them for having shouldered and shot them.

Milled guns are sweet and beautiful as an AK can be. It's truly an "Eye of the Beholder" concept, and guys love solid guns, Yes?

Gordon
May 7, 2013, 10:20 AM
I too live in **** and my pre ban registered asshalt rifle Hungarian M85 underfolder fits in my Roadking saddlebag

bigdaa
May 7, 2013, 10:26 AM
I have the Hungarian SA85 in thumbhole version.

Yours is the real deal, Gordon.

justice06rr
May 8, 2013, 12:00 AM
Congrats on the new AK!

GunsBlazing
May 8, 2013, 12:50 PM
Great looking Arsenal! I'm looking to get one myself, I'm just not willing to pay the ridiculous prices they've been going for lately. I'll sit on the sidelines until the price gouging recedes.

red rick
May 8, 2013, 06:01 PM
I received my Circle 10 magazines for it yesterday. They fit real good. Now it looks like a AK.

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