Large pistol primers in rifle cartridges?


PDA






EMT_stuart
April 29, 2013, 08:57 PM
I just got into reloading, and currently the only primers I have are large pistol primers (and some BP percussion caps). I was just wondering if I could use them in place of large rifle primers for my 8mm Mauser or my 6.5 Carcano.

Noob-ish question, I know, but I was wondering if anyone had success with this.

If you enjoyed reading about "Large pistol primers in rifle cartridges?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
rcmodel
April 29, 2013, 09:09 PM
No.

Large Pistol primers are a different cup height then Large rifle primers.
As are the primer pockets in the cases.
And softer & thinner then rifle primers.

(Sm rifle & Sm pistol are the same height, but not the hardness or pressure levels they are designed to handle)

Best advice is, Don't even think about it.

rc

GLOOB
April 29, 2013, 09:17 PM
I'd do it with significantly reduced loads. I use LPP interchangeably for cast loads.

bigdaa
April 29, 2013, 09:18 PM
^+1


Hang on the rifle reloading until you get the proper components.

You ain't in a hurry............

35 Whelen
April 30, 2013, 02:41 AM
I'd do it with significantly reduced loads. I use LPP interchangeably for cast loads.
Me too. In fact with cast bullet loads, LPP's are all I use, and I've used them in this way by the 1000's. Don't think I'd try them with full power loads though.

35W

ArchAngelCD
April 30, 2013, 04:59 AM
BUT, under normal circumstances it's a very bad idea to use a LPP in place of a LRP when loading to normal pressures. rcmodel gave you some good advice, use what he said.

Remember guys, this is a new reloader so we really should tell him not to do anything out of the normal, at least until he gains some experience. It's obvious by the question he's very new...

Don McDowell
April 30, 2013, 01:29 PM
Sticking with the Saami spec pressure loads your large pistol primers will work alright in the two cartridges you listed. They will work best if shooting cast bullets and using the typical cast bullet data.

Geno
April 30, 2013, 01:44 PM
Edited to add the fourth source, and an on-line source from CCI.

Checking four of my reloading manuals, I see the following listed as acceptable:

8mm Mauser
1) Modern Reloading, Second Edition: CCI 200, 250 primers
2) Speer Reloading Manual Rifle & Pistol, Number 13: Large rifle primer
3) Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26: Large rifle primer
4) Accurate Load Guide for Rifle and Handgun, Edition 3.4: Win WLR
5) CCI Online Primer Use Chart: http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primer_chart.htm

I did not check the second cartridge you had listed. My point is this, unless you see it in print, in a reputable, professional source, do not do it. God, or mother nature gave you one pair of hands, 8 fingers, 2 thumbs and 2 eyes. Do you really want to risk them?! Editing to add, CCI does not provide any information for substituting primers.

JMHO,

Geno

mdi
April 30, 2013, 02:29 PM
I think it would problematic; misfires due to primer height. Large Rifle Primers are .008" taller than Large Pistol Primers. Pistol primers are made of softer material and might rupture from rifle pressures...

Uniquedot
April 30, 2013, 02:36 PM
I use them all the time in gallery rifle type loads and reduced loads with cast bullets and fast powders. Don't use them with full power loads for all the reasons mentioned already.

Don McDowell
April 30, 2013, 03:54 PM
Guys before you get real wound up with the tar and feathers and the big lengthy safety speeches. I would suggest you compare the saami spec pressures of the two cartridges the OP asked about, and a few things like the 41 and 44 mags, 480 ruger,454 casull and 500 S&W.
I'll also point out that using large pistol primers in the big bpcr cartridges is pretty common practice.

GLOOB
April 30, 2013, 06:04 PM
Guys before you get real wound up with the tar and feathers and the big lengthy safety speeches. I would suggest you compare the saami spec pressures of the two cartridges the OP asked about, and a few things like the 41 and 44 mags, 480 ruger,454 casull and 500 S&W.
I'd be careful reading too much into the max pressure of the cartridges. A max pressure of 50k psi in a rifle vs 50k psi in a pistol both have the same peak pressure, but the overall impulse in the rifle could be much higher. Slower powder, more overbore, and longer barrel. Also, I thought rifle primers were used in 500 S&W, anyhow??

As an example, both Remington and S&B have the same thing to say, here:

Remington says to use 1 1/2's for 9mm. But 5 1/2's for 40SW.
S&B says to use SPP for 9mm, and SMPP for 40SW.

Max SAAMI pressure for 40SW is exactly the same as standard pressure 9mm. And both 9mm NATO and 9mm +P are higher than 40SW. So go figure. I'm sure S&B and Remington both know how to compare max pressures.

So if you're gonna do it, just be careful. Use a little common sense. Check the primers for cracks. Check breechface and firing pin for erosion.

Lj1941
April 30, 2013, 07:23 PM
My son several years ago aquired a large amount of mostly military primed 223/556x45 cases. I have just got around to testing proven handloads in said primed cases.In almost every case using the same lot of powder,I am getting flattened primers firing them im my M 11 Savage.I have suspected that since the only variable is the primers,perhaps I am dealing with pistol primers.Anyone have any thoughts on that?The package deal he bought was from a person who was getting out of loading and included a press,dies,thousands of assorted primers and around 2000 of the primed cases in 223 Remington.I need to load some loads with known good CCI SRP and see if I still get flattened primers

Don McDowell
April 30, 2013, 07:29 PM
Small rifle and Small pistol primer cups are exactly the same. You're problem is likely from to much powder, or seating depth or any number of other factors. The 223 can be a bit finicky and pressure sensitive in some rifles.

kingmt
April 30, 2013, 07:48 PM
I use LPP in my 30-06 to work up unknown powders. Why? Because I can see when the pressure starts to build way before I have anything to worry about. I also do it to tell me which ones have fast prefer in them. I have kids so you never know when something will get mixed up.

Grumulkin
April 30, 2013, 08:54 PM
Guys before you get real wound up with the tar and feathers and the big lengthy safety speeches. I would suggest you compare the saami spec pressures of the two cartridges the OP asked about, and a few things like the 41 and 44 mags, 480 ruger,454 casull and 500 S&W.
I'll also point out that using large pistol primers in the big bpcr cartridges is pretty common practice.
You're right.

Another thing many may not know is that originally the 460 S&W Magnum, which has a SAAMI maximum pressure of 60,000 psi used, gasp, large pistol primers.

In addition, though I've never tried it, I doubt that cup height is going to cause misfires.

rcmodel
April 30, 2013, 09:11 PM
But the bottom line still is:

Telling a new reloader it's O'K. to use Lg pistol primers in centerfire rifle loads is still the wrong answer!

rc

Don McDowell
April 30, 2013, 10:23 PM
I would agree that a blanket it's ok to use large pistol primers in rifle cartridges is not a prudent thing to do. But you also have to look at the specific cartridges he asked about, and then answer in the affirmative for those cartridges, they operate at the same or less pressure than many pistol cartridges .
If the OP happens to get some pierced primers then he needs to reconsider, but otherwise there really should be no problem.

oneounceload
April 30, 2013, 10:37 PM
RTFM - what is so hard to follow?

kingmt
April 30, 2013, 10:45 PM
But the bottom line still is:

Telling a new reloader it's O'K. to use Lg pistol primers in centerfire rifle loads is still the wrong answer!

rc
So we should lie to him because he is new?

35 Whelen
May 1, 2013, 01:13 AM
Guys before you get real wound up with the tar and feathers and the big lengthy safety speeches. I would suggest you compare the saami spec pressures of the two cartridges the OP asked about, and a few things like the 41 and 44 mags, 480 ruger,454 casull and 500 S&W.
I'll also point out that using large pistol primers in the big bpcr cartridges is pretty common practice.
Yeeeep!!

When I was actively competing on our local High Power matches I fired a bare MINIMUM of 100 rounds per month, assuming NO load development and NO practicing, which was extremely rare. Every single one of these cartridges, light cast bullet loads, were loaded with LPP's. Never a single misfire after firing cumulatively around 3000 LPP's in 7.5x55's and 30-06's.

The subject of primer height came up in a thread earlier this year and rather than answer via rectal extraction (that'd be an uneducated guess), I measured some of my primers. Here's what I came up with from primers I have on hand:

Pistol:
Fed. 150 & 155- .120"
CCI-300- .122"
CCI-350- .118"
WLP- .120"

Rifle:
WLR- .127"
CCI-200 & 250- .124"

Real world difference, about .005" or about the thickness of a piece of printer paper. Maximum difference: about .009" or about the thickness of two pieces of printer paper. If either of these differences causes misfires in a rifle, it ain't the primers fault!

Would I as a matter of habit load LPP's in rifle cases for full-power loads? No, but I darn sure wouldn't let it stop me from shooting if it were all I had!

My son several years ago aquired a large amount of mostly military primed 223/556x45 cases. I have just got around to testing proven handloads in said primed cases.In almost every case using the same lot of powder,I am getting flattened primers firing them im my M 11 Savage.I have suspected that since the only variable is the primers,perhaps I am dealing with pistol primers.Anyone have any thoughts on that?The package deal he bought was from a person who was getting out of loading and included a press,dies,thousands of assorted primers and around 2000 of the primed cases in 223 Remington.I need to load some loads with known good CCI SRP and see if I still get flattened primers

Flattened primers do not universally mean high pressures as they can be caused by many different things. The absolute worst case of flattened primers I have ever seen was in my fathers 35 Whelen. New Remington cases had shoulders set back too far which of course created a headspace problem. Upon firing the primrs would flatten horribly.
So, your flattened primers could be caused by high pressure loads or from someone who full-length sized the cases and set the shoulders back too far .

35W

oldpapps
May 1, 2013, 11:55 AM
I fully agree with rc on this.

If the manufactures could only make 2 sizes of primers, they would jump on it. They don't and for good reason. Each primer size/type has to meet the different needs of differing loading applications.

'cause it fits, more or less, in the hole, don't make it right.

Please load with safety in mind, not just get'en by.

Carl N. Brown
May 1, 2013, 12:01 PM
The only time I have even been tempted to use large pistol primers in a rifle cartridge was when I was loading black powder cartridges.

If a high power cartridge fails under pressure it is often at the primer. Large rifle primers are better at containing high power rifle pressures than large pistol primers.

oldpapps
May 1, 2013, 12:56 PM
Mr. Brown,

I would think that you are not 'new to reloading'. With this in mind and each persons degree of learned expertise, as one understands the dynamics of the process, the use of more 'specialized' components can come into play.

Your use of pistol primers in black powder loads is utilizing components, in this example primers, in differing load applications. I think your utilization is/was well withing reason.

I have, in the past, used large pistol primers in 30-30 loadings. These were for use in a TC Contender with specialty loads (111 grain M1 Carbine FMC bullets). Just because I have, under special applications, used pistol primers in rifle cases. Does not indicate that I would do so in a blanket loading environment.

Special use/s, utilize non-ordinary components.

Keep it safe.

kingmt
May 2, 2013, 08:58 AM
I fully disagree with you. Look at yes cartridges that have been switched from large primer to small primer.

ArchAngelCD
May 2, 2013, 09:16 AM
I fully disagree with you. Look at yes cartridges that have been switched from large primer to small primer.
Changing from a large PISTOL primer to a small PISTOL primers is completely different than using a pistol primer in a rifle application. Besides, the ammo manufacturers have testing equipment to insure safety that we do not possess. (pressure testing)

Searcher4851
May 2, 2013, 02:52 PM
I'd say no, just to be safe.

While some folks say they have done it in different situations with success, I would tend to err on the side of safety and advise against it in your situation. I think all the discussion back and forth about the matter is more confusing than helpful to the OP. If you can find load data in a reputable published reloading manual using the LPP in your cartridges, I'd say go for it. In the absence of such data, I say better safe than sorry.

On a brighter note, it does seem that the LRP aren't in quite as high demand as other primers since stock has been seen running through several suppliers as of late. Just be patient and get some LRP when they are available.

ArchAngelCD
May 2, 2013, 03:11 PM
I'd say no, just to be safe.

While some folks say they have done it in different situations with success, I would tend to err on the side of safety and advise against it in your situation. I think all the discussion back and forth about the matter is more confusing than helpful to the OP. If you can find load data in a reputable published reloading manual using the LPP in your cartridges, I'd say go for it. In the absence of such data, I say better safe than sorry.

On a brighter note, it does seem that the LRP aren't in quite as high demand as other primers since stock has been seen running through several suppliers as of late. Just be patient and get some LRP when they are available.
LRP are the only primers that have stayed available locally. At times there are LPP but LRP, always.

If you enjoyed reading about "Large pistol primers in rifle cartridges?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!