Denver Fox31 News Undercover ArmsList 'Stings' *continued... So they bought some guns


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CoRoMo
May 1, 2013, 02:58 PM
Continuing from my last thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=713306

There is very little to tell here though. There really isn't a substantive story. But they try nonetheless.

http://kdvr.com/2013/04/29/we-bought-a-semi-automatic-uzi-in-the-parking-lot-of-babies-r-us/

Josh's efforts to label everything as an "assault rifle" is distracting but the primary point he attempts to make is that the openly public LOCATIONS chosen for the transactions should bring concern to the viewer. That and the fact that nobody at all in these public locations called the police to report the legal activity taking place. That was what he says dumbfounded him the most.

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longknife12
May 1, 2013, 03:34 PM
Over the years, I have bought several on parking lots.....none of which have been used in a crime! Was the easiest place to meet up.If I wasn't comfortable with the seller, I did not buy.
Dan

PabloJ
May 1, 2013, 03:38 PM
Continuing from my last thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=713306

There is very little to tell here though. There really isn't a substantive story. But they try nonetheless.

http://kdvr.com/2013/04/29/we-bought-a-semi-automatic-uzi-in-the-parking-lot-of-babies-r-us/

Josh's efforts to label everything as an "assault rifle" is distracting but the primary point he attempts to make is that the openly public LOCATIONS chosen for the transactions should bring concern to the viewer. That and the fact that nobody at all in these public locations called the police to report the legal activity taking place. That was what he says dumbfounded him the most.
Selling such items among strangers w/o mutual exchange of personal information (the so called 'no questions asked policy") is basically a form of lunacy.

CoRoMo
May 1, 2013, 03:43 PM
...mutual exchange of personal information...
And what is that exactly?

And what lead you to believe it did not happen... the limited amount of info in the story? From a journalist that is purposefully using political terms to mislead the viewer?

mrvco
May 1, 2013, 04:07 PM
These guys need to go back to catching state employees napping on the job.

steveracer
May 1, 2013, 04:14 PM
Pablo: Do you believe it is the responsibility of the seller to determine criminal action/intent of the buyer? If you do, than you need to extend it to all sales. Your golf clubs for sale on cragslist may well be used to kill someone. Getting a photo copy of their IDs are you?
Lunacy is, to me, regulating private commerce. You going to make people show you their IDs at your next yard sale?

X-Rap
May 1, 2013, 04:19 PM
Funny that when he makes his NICS claims he doesn't follow up on the number that are turned down, the number that are criminally prohibited, and then of course the number that are actually prosecuted for attempting to buy. That is a story that should be written along with the other volumes of gun laws that are enforced at the leisure of whoever is in charge.

CoRoMo
May 1, 2013, 04:39 PM
We have here, a deep look into the world view of Josh Bernstein when he says...
The most surprising aspect of this to me, was no one called the police. We were literally standing in parking lots, in broad daylight, holding up AR15s and Uzis and no one called the cops. People were walking by and looking at us.

Even at Babies 'R Us

No one.
We are left with no other choice but to believe that Mr. Bernstein only feels comfortable when law enforcement is called in response to 'perfectly legal' behavior occurring in public view.

He must not be from Colorado... but that's just my guess.

JRH6856
May 1, 2013, 04:46 PM
Pablo: Do you believe it is the responsibility of the seller to determine criminal action/intent of the buyer? If you do, than you need to extend it to all sales. Your golf clubs for sale on cragslist may well be used to kill someone. Getting a photo copy of their IDs are you?
Lunacy is, to me, regulating private commerce. You going to make people show you their IDs at your next yard sale?
Selling golf clubs to a convicted felon is not illegal. Selling a firearm to someone you have reason to believe is a convicted felon is. So sometimes, asking questions is just another form of self-defense. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

smalls
May 1, 2013, 04:58 PM
Selling golf clubs to a convicted felon is not illegal. Selling a firearm to someone you have reason to believe is a convicted felon is. So sometimes, asking questions is just another form of self-defense. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

I've got a hard time believing any court is going to be able to prove you intentionally sold a gun to a convicted felon you've never met before. Now, if you're selling to your neighbor, or cousin who us a felon, that's a different story.

But whatever makes you feel fuzzy inside :)

JRH6856
May 1, 2013, 05:24 PM
I've got a hard time believing any court is going to be able to prove you intentionally sold a gun to a convicted felon you've never met before. Now, if you're selling to your neighbor, or cousin who us a felon, that's a different story.

Sometimes the prison tats can tell you something...

tyeo098
May 1, 2013, 05:36 PM
Must have been a slow news day.

CoRoMo
May 1, 2013, 05:53 PM
...prison tats...
How do you distinguish these from the ones my brother, nephew, and sister have? I know a Marine who now is a white-collar salesman who has tats covering all of both arms and hands; real devout church-goer he is. I used to employ a gentleman who moonlighted as a tattoo artist in his off time; gentle as a kitten and more honest than I'll ever hope to be.

But both I suppose 'looked' like they'd been through the state penn... to people quick to judge.

JRH6856
May 1, 2013, 06:01 PM
Much too long to explain here, but prison tats tell their own story if you can read them. And if you can, they are not easily confused with the work of an outside artist.

Carl N. Brown
May 1, 2013, 07:18 PM
Josh Bernstein, "We bought a semi-automatic Uzi in the parking lot of Babies R Us", Fox 31 Denver, 29 Apr 2013.

In just a matter of hours, Senior Investigative Reporter Josh Bernstein bought an AR15, an Uzi and a 9mm MAC 11 with three 30-round magazines and a box of bullets.

"...box of bullets..." Great. Now he needs to buy a box primers, a can of powder, cartridge casings and a reloading kit to shoot 'em.

A .22 Uzi. The replica .22 UZI. Ho hum. I have a Marlin Model 60 and a Remington Nylon 66 that are both superior for use as weapons. Although an authentic .22 replica Uzi would be a nice addition to my small military collection, since a real 9mm Uzi is out of the question.

The private sellers of used guns probably thought they were dealing with an upright fellow citizen, not realizing they were dealing with ... gasp ... a reporter. (Reading the comments section of that article, some of the people the writer contacted realized and documented they were dealing with a "liar".)

According to a recent study by the City of New York unlicensed private sellers account for roughly 40 percent of sales nationwide.

Another misrepresentation of the National Survey on Private Ownership and use of Firearms (NSPOF).
60% gunstores, pawnshops, sporting goods stores (FFLs)
13% private sales of used guns
3% private swaps or trades of used guns
19% gifts from family or friends
5% inheritances.

40% (lumping private sales and trades with gifts and inheritances) is a more impressive number than 13% or 16%.

Private gun sales are a booming business.
Choice of language to make it sound private sales is increasing "booming". People have bought and sold used guns amongst themselves as long people have owned guns in America. Yeah, I guess they have been booming (and banging, popping and cracking depending on velocity) in one sense of the word.

NSPOF measured where the lawabiding acquire guns: a random sample of ordinary citizens for the National Institute of Justice NIJ.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics asked a sample of state inmates where they got their guns:
13.9% Retail Sources:
8.3% Retail store
3.8% Pawnshop
1.0% Flea market
0.7% Gun show
39.6% Friends or family:
12.8% Purchase or trade
18.5% Rent or borrow
8.3% Other
39.2% Street/illegal source:
9.9% Theft or burglary
20.8% Drug dealer/street
8.4% Fence/black market
(On friends and family, the "Armed and Considered Dangerous" survey of felons noted "friends" supplying guns to felons were often fellow criminals, as would be many family of felons.)

Carl N. Brown
May 1, 2013, 07:27 PM
"We bought a semi-automatic ...."

Come to think of it, since the 1890s more and more new guns are semi-automatic.

"We bought a manually operated repeater ...."

THAT would, statistically speaking, be the "man bites dog" newsworthy story.

smalls
May 2, 2013, 12:13 AM
Sometimes the prison tats can tell you something...

I'll second CoRoMo's response. I'm pretty covered in tattoos, and hang out with a lot of people who are also covered. Their crappy tattoos they got when they were 16 in some guys basement look like "prison tats" to me. I've also seen some work done in prisons that rival the work done in the best of shops.

Tattoos, color, gender, dress, hairstyle, etc. do not always tell you who a person is. Now if they're wearing gang colors, throwing up gang signs, that's a little obvious.

JohnsXDM
May 2, 2013, 12:26 AM
In Illinois we have the FOID card. I can not sell to anyone that does not have one and by law am required to record their info and keep it for 10 years. The state police run all Foid card holders thru a background check every 24 hrs so if someone has a card I know that they are not a felon.

X-JaVeN-X
May 2, 2013, 12:38 AM
I've got a hard time believing any court is going to be able to prove you intentionally sold a gun to a convicted felon you've never met before. Now, if you're selling to your neighbor, or cousin who us a felon, that's a different story.

But whatever makes you feel fuzzy inside :)
Do you really want to leave that decision up to a court? Whenever I sell a firearm in a private transaction, I require that they either show me a concealed carry permit or handgun purchase permit (if it's a handgun). I also get a copy of their ID and we both sign a copy of a bill of sale. I have a file in my filing cabinet just for such sales. I even have a copy of my mom's license and a bill of sale for a handgun I sold to her.

I do this because I don't want to leave a future issue up to courts anymore than I have to. I want a clear paper trail that takes the weapon out of my hand and shows that I went above and beyond what was required and took the buyers information. That gun could get sold down the line and if a cop comes knocking on my door asking "Is this your gun?" I want to have proof that the gun left my hands in a legal manner. This is my choice...YMMV.

Thursday45
May 2, 2013, 03:11 AM
They bought guns legally in a parking lot?!?! We really need tougher laws. Like the ones that prevent drugs from being sold in parking lots. That never happens anymore....ever....

Davek1977
May 2, 2013, 03:31 AM
While I agree totally that judging a book by its cover can be dangerous, those that have worked in corrections and/or law enforcement can readily identify SOME tats as "prison tats" I don't know too many people who tat themselves with Black Gorilla Family, Aryan Nation, Mexican Mafia, Hells Angels, Blood, Crip, or MS13 tats just for kicks and giggles. Its not the quality of ink or the quantity of ink that triggers judgement....its the actual content of the tats themselves that tell the story. Quite frankly, if I recognized the above tats, I'd certainly have hesitations about whether to complete the sale or not....and chances are, the next guy in line isn't going to ring every alarm bell I have, so I'd most likley refuse the sale personally. Your mileage may very and of course we are all free to conduct ourselves as we see fit.

ngnrd
May 2, 2013, 04:33 AM
Tattoo's are no more a sign that a person is a felon than is the color of one's skin. It's totally irrelevant.

I'm inked. I also wear a leather jacket, ride a motorcycle, drink beer, smoke cigars, and swear on occasion. But, I am not a felon. And while I may possibly recognize some popular gang tats, I couldn't tell a "prison tat" from a trendy hello kitty tat. Heck, I wouldn't even presume that all gang members are felons (which is what would actually make them a prohibited person), but I'm quite certain there are plenty of prohibited persons, including violent felons, that have no tats at all. Unless a person has the word FELON actually tattooed across their forehead, I'm not going to assume anybody is a felon just because they wear some ink.

If a person decides not to sell firearms to people with tats, that's certainly their choice, and I won't judge them for it. But, I'll leave you with this... My uncle (RIP) had more ink than anybody I've ever personally known. He also retired after a long and distinguished career as a policeman. Yes, looks can be deceiving.

Davek1977
May 2, 2013, 05:22 AM
Like I said, I realize its not an exact science, but when I see SupremeWhite Power, Hells Angels, etc........... OBVIOUS gang tats, its not someone I feel comfortable dealing with. No one can make me sell a gun to someone I don't feel comfortable doing so. It may not mean they're a felon, but that doesn't mean I want my AK hanging up in the local MC's clubhouse or in some ghetto crack den., and if I see signs that lead me to believe that may very well be where its headed, there's absolutely nothing that compels me to think its a great idea to make the sale. Someone doesn't necessarily have to be a felon for me to think selling them a gun might not be the smartest move I could make, and an obvious current or even past gang affiliation is a pretty good indicator of criminal activity. Maybe you can't tell a Hello Kitty trampstamp from a full on Hells Angels winged skull....but some of us can.

OilyPablo
May 2, 2013, 06:28 AM
Our objective was not to take a stance on gun control.....

Another guy hocking a highly modified AR15 met us at a Jefferson County Walmart right under the security cameras.

He was peddling a semi-automatic 9mm Uzi and three 30-round magazines.

Uh-huh

M-Cameron
May 2, 2013, 07:21 AM
Much too long to explain here, but prison tats tell their own story if you can read them. And if you can, they are not easily confused with the work of an outside artist.


Key word being "if you can read them"......

Seeing as I've never been in prison, nor do I readily associate with those that have......unless the guy literally has 'FELON' tattooed on his forehead, I wouldn't know 'prison ink' if it slapped me in the face.

So IDE imagine that leaves me 2 options.... Either I must become a master tattoo interpreter

..or I can just avoid people with tattoos.....

An seeing as neither of those are going to happen, i am going to continue to judge people on their actions rather than their looks.

hAkron
May 2, 2013, 07:38 AM
I discretion is the better part of valor. If you find yourself in a deal with somebody who leads you to believe, for whatever reason, that they will use the gun for a nefarious purpose, you should back out of the sale. Make an excuse "oops, I have two of these in the safe, this is the broken one, I grabbed it by mistake" or something and be on your way. When you are clear of the scene, contact them and say you have decided not to sell after all.

I ALWAYS set my meet-up spots for the parking lot of an open business. I like grocery stores or big box stores. I assume they have cameras monitoring the parking lots so people are less likely to get try anything. This is true no matter what I'm selling or buying.

JRH6856
May 2, 2013, 09:13 AM
Seeing as I've never been in prison, nor do I readily associate with those that have......unless the guy literally has 'FELON' tattooed on his forehead, I wouldn't know 'prison ink' if it slapped me in the face.

Try Googling "prison ink". ;) It's a start.

(If anyone wants the information on how to identify prison ink, they can find it. If they don't want it, they can ignore it. It's a matter of personal choice.)

45_auto
May 2, 2013, 09:26 AM
I googled "prison ink".

I get pages of instructions on how to make ink out of cans and baby oil and cotton, and ink guns out of transistors and nails and magnets in prison. Am I supposed to question the buyer to determine if he has some knowledge of this?

Bruno2
May 2, 2013, 10:44 AM
All of this talk about FOID cards and handgun purchase permits. Where do you guys live? Croatia?

CoRoMo
May 2, 2013, 10:56 AM
Okay, okay, okay; enough with the tattoo side-talk. This thread is supposed to be about the media thugs. Go start a thread on the merits of the old adage 'for man judges at the outward appearance', and beat each other up over there.

X-Rap
May 2, 2013, 11:14 AM
If the reporter wanted to really have a story he should go to Chicago, NYC, DC and show us how easy it is to buy a gun in an alley or parking lot. He might meet some less savory characters than he found in the Denver Burbs and if caught making their towns look bad would face some serious heat from the mayors and police chiefs.

CoRoMo
May 2, 2013, 11:19 AM
...he should go to Chicago, NYC, DC and show us how easy it is to buy a gun in an alley...
That might rival the risks taken by embedded war correspondents in the middle east! You might not make it out alive!

But that's one thing that struck me about his tantrum regarding the open, daylight public locations the sellers chose.

Did he honestly want to do this at night in an Aurora alleyway? I totally miss what he's suggesting there. If the parking lot of Babies 'R Us is not a safe location, what is?

I suppose that he's implying that it is a danger to the public for such legal activities to take place in such harmless places.

rdhood
May 2, 2013, 11:19 AM
I ALWAYS set my meet-up spots for the parking lot of an open business. I like grocery stores or big box stores. I assume they have cameras monitoring the parking lots so people are less likely to get try anything. This is true no matter what I'm selling or buying.

Same here. While I don't check ID, I don't live near my state's border, and I always have a look a the license plate. I have sold/purchased guns to/from a wide variety of folk, including one LE officer. I only back out of a transaction if anything starts looking fishy... if I have any reason whatsoever to believe that this person is not on the up and up. Examples might include a car full of nefarious looking people (in this case, I am allowed to judge a book by its cover. So don't show up in prison stripes), an out of state tag, taking money from someone else in the car to pay for a firearm (straw purchase), etc. To date, I have only backed out of one (out of a dozen) transactions.

ngnrd
May 2, 2013, 11:23 AM
So... reporters created a story out of nothing, and then made an attempt to sensationalize it to push an agenda. That's not exactly new tactics.

What have you done to set them straight?

22-rimfire
May 2, 2013, 04:08 PM
License plates are a good unofficial check on residency. Some folks will move and get new plates on their vehicles, but keep the old drivers license until it expires which is typically years rather than "year".

I would imagine that the seller of the firearms was selling to the reporter who I belive was a CO resident. If they were not allowed to purchase a firearm, then they should be in legal hot water.

The 40% number is pretty much BS.

smalls
May 2, 2013, 06:42 PM
Do you really want to leave that decision up to a court? Whenever I sell a firearm in a private transaction, I require that they either show me a concealed carry permit or handgun purchase permit (if it's a handgun). I also get a copy of their ID and we both sign a copy of a bill of sale. I have a file in my filing cabinet just for such sales. I even have a copy of my mom's license and a bill of sale for a handgun I sold to her.

If I were to sell a gun I would do exactly what is required of my by law. No more, no less. I see anything more as giving into the anti's.

"Look! We might as well make this a requirement, because they do it anyway!"

Like I said, if it makes you feel warm n fuzzy, go for it. I've done what I'm responsible for, and I'll sleep just fine for it.

danez71
May 2, 2013, 11:12 PM
Did he honestly want to do this at night in an Aurora alleyway? I totally miss what he's suggesting there. If the parking lot of Babies 'R Us is not a safe location, what is?

You missed their point because your mind isn't used to twisting things to fit a specific agenda.


Their point is " Even Babies R Us isn't safe. Assault weapons are being bought and sold by complete strangers. The same assault weapons that kill dozens of innocent children. ".

vkeith
May 3, 2013, 02:07 AM
Did anybody else notice the KDVR poll where 84.5% of the respondents voted against universal background checks (out of 2710 total votes)? Sure does contradict the Washington Post's survey that 90% favor universal gun checks (out of 1001 total respondents).

coloradokevin
May 3, 2013, 02:44 AM
This Fox story really pissed me off. They seemed really focused on the Babies R Us sale, even though the sale had nothing to do with babies.

The part that bothered me the most though was that I immediately recognized the shooting range. It is the private (members only) WHAC range near Brighton, to which I belong (along with some other High Roaders). I talked with one of the two guys who operate this range, and they were not aware that this story was being filmed there. So, it means that one of the members of our range allowed these idiots onto the property to film their anti-gun story.

Bobson
May 3, 2013, 03:14 AM
Did anybody else notice the KDVR poll where 84.5% of the respondents voted against universal background checks (out of 2710 total votes)? Sure does contradict the Washington Post's survey that 90% favor universal gun checks (out of 1001 total respondents).
Nothing new about that. Head to whitehouse.gov and sign up for regular updates from the President's staff. The BS they send out is even worse.

Madcap_Magician
May 3, 2013, 08:38 AM
Only tangentially related, but the most irritating thing about that article was this:

Another guy hocking a highly modified AR15 met us at a Jefferson County Walmart right under the security cameras.

Hocking= Severing the tendons of the hock, the joint that is the equivalent of the ankle in horse-like quadripeds.

Hawking= Engaging in the sport of falconry, or, selling goods for a living.

Neither is correct, since there was no evidence that the AR-15 seller was engaged in selling firearms for a business.

#CopyEditingFail

wow6599
May 3, 2013, 09:37 AM
I love this -

We thought we had seen it all until one guy pulled out a 22 caliber Uzi in the parking lot of Babies R Us.

Nice squirrel gun.....

CoRoMo
May 3, 2013, 10:33 AM
...the sale had nothing to do with babies.
That's why they went to great length to make their story about babies, er... the safety of the mommas and babies going into that store, I suppose. :confused: That's what I believe they had to be implying.
...one of the members of our range allowed these idiots onto the property to film their anti-gun story.
Did you notice that Reporter Josh fired the rifle with the rear sight flipped up and flipped down. :scrutiny: He sure is a dim bulb.

HOOfan_1
May 3, 2013, 12:20 PM
So, it means that one of the members of our range allowed these idiots onto the property to film their anti-gun story.

A State legislator in Virginia was waving around an AK with his finger on the trigger in the state Capitol....he was of course using it as a prop to promote his AWB bill. He said a friend lent it to him.

So he has friends who own guns which he doesn't think they should be allowed to own, and his friends were stupid enough to lend the gun to him to further his cause of making their property illegal.....inconceivable.

Luckily in Virginia his bill had no chance at all...didn't even get close to leaving committee

ngnrd
May 3, 2013, 01:25 PM
Only tangentially related, but the most irritating thing about that article was this:

Hocking= Severing the tendons of the hock, the joint that is the equivalent of the ankle in horse-like quadripeds.

Hawking= Engaging in the sport of falconry, or, selling goods for a living.

Neither is correct, since there was no evidence that the AR-15 seller was engaged in selling firearms for a business.

#CopyEditingFail
The word 'hawking' is often used to describe the act of selling merchandise. Dictionary.net includes the following definition (http://definitions.dictionary.net/hawking):

Hawking

noun

the act of selling goods for a living

Cosmoline
May 3, 2013, 01:26 PM
The most surprising aspect of this to me, was no one called the police.

LOL I once bought an M1A from the trunk ... OF A POLICE CRUISER! I love Alaska.

CoRoMo
May 3, 2013, 01:38 PM
So he has friends who own guns which he doesn't think they should be allowed to own...
I don't believe this to be true. His friends are well connected and I suppose this would either exclude them from his AWB, or at least it is qualified within his own view of firearms ownership. He might support their right to own that AK... because they happen to know him.

You though... not being connected well enough, must surrender your rights to the government... and like it.

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